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  1. #51
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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    no one here is advocating that we just freely give money away to people who aren't willing to work for themselves, and for that matter I don't know why you keep INSISTING that the lower class aren't some of the hardest working people you'll ever meet. They put in long hours, go to school, raise their kids and live life without the help of a nanny, caretaker...
    AND...ABLE to work for themselves. There are people out there who want to work, but simply cannot...I've known people who have sent out hundreds of resumes and cover letters without success...I can't even fathom how somebody is able to support children (including day care and all) on an ordinary job.

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    If wealth were truly a manner of work ethic there would be a consistent pattern of people jumping either from the top tax bracket to the bottom or from the bottom to the top, all based on their... "work ethic." But that isn't what happens.
    I made my own way with my own business/job; I never had an employee except for nine months in the middle of the 1990s. I ended up becoming successful - I guess "middle middle class" - not only by hard work, but some really stupid and dumb luck. I was hoarding inventory from about 1981 to 1997 under the illusion that it may "age" and become valuable. I had uncanny luck on deciding WHAT to hoard...such as loads and loads of punk music when it was readily available [CHEAP] up to about 1984. Six years ago I found a box of "soul records" that had been sent to me from a place in Virginia back in the early or middle 1980s that I had inexplicably never opened, and I found two copies of a record I got more than $500 each, and I think 17 copies of something I got around $200 each. I do NOT consider my success to be an outcome that is common at all. Even more unusual, my business didn't even flinch during the Recession.

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    "But I was born in the middle of a tornado and lived off of cereal and crackers for 17 years and I blah blah blah turned out just fine blah blah blah"
    Yeah, right...the implied message is always "...and if YOU can't make your way in life, you're a freeloading piece of shit." I had a conversation with somebody in the middle or late 00's (i. e. not sure if the Recession had started yet) who claimed that "Hey, look what Stephen Hawking did, with great adversity! That means that ANYBODY can do it, otherwise they're just clueless and lazy." (Not his exact words, but paraphrased.) NO, that is not true. Hawking was blessed with an unusual spirit that could blast its own way through all the adversities; as a Christian I've sometimes thought his life was actually a divine Miracle, because that disease should have killed him 35-40 years ago. Some people's natures are more "together" than others, which could even be a DNA or inborn thing. As such, some people can overcome adversity, and other people in the same circumstances will be washed away by it.

    Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
    we need to set the minimum wage high enough so that the worker doesn't qualify for government assistance.
    That's a pretty good quantitative guideline when trying to set a minimum wage.

    Of course that doesn't stop politicians from "playing with" poverty guidelines, or at what percentage of the poverty rate the assistance should be set. It also gets more complex when number of children are considered. Additional children actually result in only an additional small pittance in the amount of assistance, and it's never made sense to me when people say that families just pump out babies to get more money. A family on "welfare" is going to have a VERY spartan life, and may even have trouble keeping a home, and the waiting lists for Section 8 Housing can be YEARS LONG.

    Quote Originally Posted by aristomaniac View Post
    I think today's education system is not realistic at all. Going through the k-12 system, I don't recall ever learning about compounded interest or how to write a check. And yet, I remember having to memorize the names of various cloud formations and actually took a test on them. In other words, the education system isn't really preparing kids for the real world.
    I'm 71 and MOST OF MY LIFE I've been saying that schools should have A FEW (not just one) REQUIRED courses about "Interactions With the World" (or whatever it may be called) which would teach things like writing checks and balancing checkbooks (or keeping track of debit/credit cards), compound interest and its PITFALLS, how insurance works, how contracts work, law enforcement and the courts, marriage and divorce, Government benefits and entitlements, costs of raising children (clothing, feeding, school, health, etc. - even entertainment such as toys and activities), nutrition, cost of living rural vs. cities, the care and feeding of a car, drug abuse, applying for jobs, taxation, etc. There are young people who willy-nilly have children because they're NOT AWARE of the sacrifices, courage, etc. that will be needed.

    Why isn't this stuff taught? One can't DEPEND on the parents being responsible enough to teach this, AND/OR for the struggling parents to even be able to take the time to have these talks with their children, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by aristomaniac View Post
    There are certain immigrant groups that came from 3rd world conditions, came to this country with absolutely nothing, and within just a generation became the highest earners in this country. Even more so than white people.
    B-b-b-but...those IMMA-GRUNTS are freeloaders who are ruining this country, don'cha know.

    This country is aging. IMMIGRANTS who come here are, generally, younger people who are relatively healthy and able to make the utterly-disruptive decision to move to a FOREIGN COUNTRY - even under the best circumstances (and, yes, I'm including people who may disparagingly be called "Wetbacks" or worse), the process is VERY difficult - and, for those who come illegally, RISKY is added into the mix. Under the worst circumstances, the process can take YEARS if done on the up-and-up. Immigrants may be THE hardest-working group of people that there IS in this country...and DON'T think they're not aware they need to "keep their noses clean and watch their Ps and Qs" because they can be subject to deportation if they slip up. I don't believe there are a lot of ELDERLY who are immigrating to the U. S. because of various/potential health issues preventing such extreme mobility, etc.

    These immigrants, being younger, are FUNDING SOCIAL SECURITY, MEDICARE, ETC. - and, yet, they are not eligible for those benefits themselves. (This goes against some of the dominant propaganda with people claiming illegal immigrants are raking in the welfare and pumping out more and more babies.) This is actually a form of confiscation of what amounts to EXTRA taxation, and it obviously contributes to the budget. I've read many things over the years saying that immigration creates an offsetting surplus in the Budget.
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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    AND...ABLE to work for themselves. There are people out there who want to work, but simply cannot...I've known people who have sent out hundreds of resumes and cover letters without success...I can't even fathom how somebody is able to support children (including day care and all) on an ordinary job.


    I made my own way with my own business/job; I never had an employee except for nine months in the middle of the 1990s. I ended up becoming successful - I guess "middle middle class" - not only by hard work, but some really stupid and dumb luck. I was hoarding inventory from about 1981 to 1997 under the illusion that it may "age" and become valuable. I had uncanny luck on deciding WHAT to hoard...such as loads and loads of punk music when it was readily available [CHEAP] up to about 1984. Six years ago I found a box of "soul records" that had been sent to me from a place in Virginia back in the early or middle 1980s that I had inexplicably never opened, and I found two copies of a record I got more than $500 each, and I think 17 copies of something I got around $200 each. I do NOT consider my success to be an outcome that is common at all. Even more unusual, my business didn't even flinch during the Recession.


    Yeah, right...the implied message is always "...and if YOU can't make your way in life, you're a freeloading piece of shit." I had a conversation with somebody in the middle or late 00's (i. e. not sure if the Recession had started yet) who claimed that "Hey, look what Stephen Hawking did, with great adversity! That means that ANYBODY can do it, otherwise they're just clueless and lazy." (Not his exact words, but paraphrased.) NO, that is not true. Hawking was blessed with an unusual spirit that could blast its own way through all the adversities; as a Christian I've sometimes thought his life was actually a divine Miracle, because that disease should have killed him 35-40 years ago. Some people's natures are more "together" than others, which could even be a DNA or inborn thing. As such, some people can overcome adversity, and other people in the same circumstances will be washed away by it.


    That's a pretty good quantitative guideline when trying to set a minimum wage.

    Of course that doesn't stop politicians from "playing with" poverty guidelines, or at what percentage of the poverty rate the assistance should be set. It also gets more complex when number of children are considered. Additional children actually result in only an additional small pittance in the amount of assistance, and it's never made sense to me when people say that families just pump out babies to get more money. A family on "welfare" is going to have a VERY spartan life, and may even have trouble keeping a home, and the waiting lists for Section 8 Housing can be YEARS LONG.


    I'm 71 and MOST OF MY LIFE I've been saying that schools should have A FEW (not just one) REQUIRED courses about "Interactions With the World" (or whatever it may be called) which would teach things like writing checks and balancing checkbooks (or keeping track of debit/credit cards), compound interest and its PITFALLS, how insurance works, how contracts work, law enforcement and the courts, marriage and divorce, Government benefits and entitlements, costs of raising children (clothing, feeding, school, health, etc. - even entertainment such as toys and activities), nutrition, cost of living rural vs. cities, the care and feeding of a car, drug abuse, applying for jobs, taxation, etc. There are young people who willy-nilly have children because they're NOT AWARE of the sacrifices, courage, etc. that will be needed.

    Why isn't this stuff taught? One can't DEPEND on the parents being responsible enough to teach this, AND/OR for the struggling parents to even be able to take the time to have these talks with their children, etc.

    B-b-b-but...those IMMA-GRUNTS are freeloaders who are ruining this country, don'cha know.

    This country is aging. IMMIGRANTS who come here are, generally, younger people who are relatively healthy and able to make the utterly-disruptive decision to move to a FOREIGN COUNTRY - even under the best circumstances (and, yes, I'm including people who may disparagingly be called "Wetbacks" or worse), the process is VERY difficult - and, for those who come illegally, RISKY is added into the mix. Under the worst circumstances, the process can take YEARS if done on the up-and-up. Immigrants may be THE hardest-working group of people that there IS in this country...and DON'T think they're not aware they need to "keep their noses clean and watch their Ps and Qs" because they can be subject to deportation if they slip up. I don't believe there are a lot of ELDERLY who are immigrating to the U. S. because of various/potential health issues preventing such extreme mobility, etc.

    These immigrants, being younger, are FUNDING SOCIAL SECURITY, MEDICARE, ETC. - and, yet, they are not eligible for those benefits themselves. (This goes against some of the dominant propaganda with people claiming illegal immigrants are raking in the welfare and pumping out more and more babies.) This is actually a form of confiscation of what amounts to EXTRA taxation, and it obviously contributes to the budget. I've read many things over the years saying that immigration creates an offsetting surplus in the Budget.
    I don't think I could ever get tired of reading your posts Frank. You're always able to say what I stumble to say and you say it so much more eloquently.

  3. #53
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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    legit concern, not discussed enough, the goal isn't just to raise the wages but to do it without raising prices or cutting hours which is entirely within reason/plausibility
    It may not be commonplace. I'm just going by what happened in Ontario back in January when the increase kicked in. The hardest hit were the small businesses and operations. I remember many small store and restaurant owners reducing staff and taking over their duties just to keep afloat. They simply could not afford to pay the wages.

    It's a vicious circle. Workers get more money, but prices go up to cover the increase, completely negating the raise.

    Then again, when young people just NEED that new phone which costs more than I paid for my first car...
    "You can't have everything. Where would you put it?" - Steven Wright

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by gsdx View Post
    It may not be commonplace. I'm just going by what happened in Ontario back in January when the increase kicked in. The hardest hit were the small businesses and operations. I remember many small store and restaurant owners reducing staff and taking over their duties just to keep afloat. They simply could not afford to pay the wages.

    It's a vicious circle. Workers get more money, but prices go up to cover the increase, completely negating the raise.

    Then again, when young people just NEED that new phone which costs more than I paid for my first car...
    That's a crucial part of raising minimum wage is setting up parameters so that the cost isn't passed on to the customers and employees but the big company itself, with exemptions or some sort of workable guidelines for smaller businesses. Because otherwise that's exactly what will happen. Walmart, again as an example, if allowed to, would immediately offset the raise with price gouging, benefits slashing and hours cutting instead of dipping into their umpteenquadsuperzillionbamillionquatrilliondundill ion hundred thousand catillion dollars in annual revenue. That's why we're asking for this in the first place, these big chains can afford to do it, they just choose not to. Because they're soulless pieces of shit.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    "Life isn't fair" doesn't justify such a criminally staggering wealth disparity. We don't have to tolerate all evil in the world "cuz that's just how it is." An immeasurable number of social tragedies would still be occuring today if not thankfully for people who didn't just fold "cuz life ain't fair."

    And all that poppycock about stars and warmth is great for hallmark cards but ignores the complexities of poverty and low income. enjoy the stars? kid needs help with homework. and the sink is broken. and your boss needs you to come in early. and you have a paper to write. and your father is sick and needs meds you can't afford unless you pay the rent late again which would mark eviction proceedings. People can't ignore desperation and sadness all around them just cuz a few stars are shining. That's even less realistic than everything else you've said here.

    "Golly gosh your kid may be starving and you don't know how you're going to make it til payday but by gum aren't those stars pretty?" If you weren't being serious that would be one of the funniest posts you've written in a long time. Like lookin at some stars is gonna cure all of life's ails. But I guess since all your other arguments are falling apart at the seams nothing wrong with trying this "They just gotta learn to appreciate the little things" B.S. The situations and types of people that your answer is obnoxiously insufficient for [sick, mentally ill, disabled, and, gosh, enough to really elicit a new thread] only further highlights how impractical and naively idealistic you're being.
    My reply that you quote was about the 1% and millionaires. I don't waste time thinking about them and how unfair it is that some have so much and others have virtually nothing. I find that if I take a few moments to marvel at the universe it puts life into perspective for me. I have spent the last 4 years dealing with wheelchairs, hospitals, nursing homes and searching for doctors that would listen. Not to mention building ramps and installing hand grips. While doing these things I have had to do the shopping, cooking, cleaning, the budget, fix cars, cut the grass and clean our home.

    What I battle daily is the temptation to think about how this is all a repeat of my childhood when my family seemed to lazy to wipe their ass, or take out the garbage. If I didn't do it, it didn't get done. As an adult I had my mother living in a senior apartment building. She would fake a black out and the old ladies would grab her keys and inspect her apartment. Then they called an ambulance and then call me and I would find myself at 11:00 at night cleaning her place so she wouldn't be evicted.

    I would get calls at mid night that my brother was hallucinating, again. Then I would find myself at his pigpen home trying to calm him down from a combination of booze and dope.

    So, I look at the stars, the same stars that my dad saw when he was alive, it gives me a connection to the one normal person that was in my family. Be it fair or not, it is what it is, as they say and I deal with it. I don't expect all to cope as well as I did or have, and some will do better then I have. We should do our best, it's all we have.

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    JUB Addict willhunt's Avatar
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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    We've overspent and shoved a bunch of income to the top of the pile. We've not balanced the budget in years. We're going to leave huge debt to our children. We can subsidize everything from corn to fossil fuels to make commodities more affordable. Looks good on paper, but the rich get richer, the middle class gets extinguished and the poor get poorer. This is capitalism on stolen steroids. Our kids will still pay the tab.
    Basic math: There are so many apples in the bushel... Reality: Some of us are picking apples we cannot afford. - ballcaphair

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by willhunt View Post
    We've overspent and shoved a bunch of income to the top of the pile. We've not balanced the budget in years. We're going to leave huge debt to our children. We can subsidize everything from corn to fossil fuels to make commodities more affordable. Looks good on paper, but the rich get richer, the middle class gets extinguished and the poor get poorer. This is capitalism on stolen steroids. Our kids will still pay the tab.
    and some of us aren't willing to just lay down and "Oh well that's just the way it is, life ain't fair." I'd still be in chains picking cotton if my ancestors felt that way. For that matter America never would've been founded in the first place if the founding fathers' attitude was "Yeah this sucks but what are you gonna do about it?" True patriots understand that the true spirit of America is that it doesn't have to be that way, it can be better.

    As I said, the American dream isn't that you can come here and "just scrape by," but that you can come here and have a life of prosperity. People conveniently forget that whenever the job market or wages or wealth disparity are the topic of discussion.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by willhunt View Post
    We've overspent and shoved a bunch of income to the top of the pile. We've not balanced the budget in years. We're going to leave huge debt to our children. We can subsidize everything from corn to fossil fuels to make commodities more affordable. Looks good on paper, but the rich get richer, the middle class gets extinguished and the poor get poorer. This is capitalism on stolen steroids. Our kids will still pay the tab.
    Have we over spent or have we under taxed? The whole idea behind supply side economics was that it would increase capital in the hands of investors and they would build more plants, stores, restaurants etc. and this would provide more jobs and better pay. However, when there is not an increased demand for a product or service people will stash their bucks, why build another sprocket factory if we already can meet the demand for sprockets with the factory that we have?

    So the shift from demand side or Keynesian economics to supply side or trickle down has left the wealthy even wealthier and has not provided new jobs because the working class has less disposable income and has tightened it's belt. This added to the shift to globalization has made for even less need for workers and has caused stagnant wages and very poor health care coverage as employers can cut benefits and not worry about losing their employees.
    The shift to demand side was primarily to control inflation, too much demand with not enough goods to satisfy the demand pushed prices and wages up. This didn't affect the worker as his wages went up at a good rate due to the demand for workers caused by the demand for goods.

    The people that inflation hurt were the wealthy.
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    It was hard to get a return of 38% in 5 years on one million dollars.

    So, wages are stuck, we have to decide if we should 'prop' them up and if so at what level. Should we tax the wealthy at a fair rate and distribute the money as a government subsidy to underpaid workers? We have the EITC that as I understand it pays a person a certain amount based upon income and the number of children that they have. I have often thought that a nation wide strike and boycott might turn the tide. But can the workers who live from pay day to pay day afford that?

    Their is no doubt that the worker has been screwed by both parties, the worker is not represented and as much as it hurts, Trump tapped in to that.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    ^ I totally agree. You've articulated the problems better than I. You've even backed it up. I understand that trump squeezed our lemons with vigor. I'm stumped on how to make lemonade. To you, by the way, respect.
    Basic math: There are so many apples in the bushel... Reality: Some of us are picking apples we cannot afford. - ballcaphair

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
    Their is no doubt that the worker has been screwed by both parties, the worker is not represented and as much as it hurts, Trump tapped in to that.
    This is the first time I've ever seen you acknowledge that poverty isn't just a result of "lazy potheads."

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    This is the first time I've ever seen you acknowledge that poverty isn't just a result of "lazy potheads."
    It is incredible that you are still throwing out the usual strawman. It really would help if you actually make your arguments against what people actually say.

    Poor people are some of the hardest workers I have ever seen in my life. There is never any doubt of that. Single mom has to work 2-3 jobs to support 3-4 kids from 3-4 different fathers. That's a lot of hard work.

    The fact of the matter is poor people aren't poor because they are lazy. They are poor because of the decisions that they have made in their lives THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN. They have been given very bad info and they make those bad decisions based on those bad info.

    Look, hard work alone will not get anyone ahead in life. I can be a ditch digger and dig ditches 16 hours a day. That's a lot of hard work. Doesn't mean my ditch digging gig is worth much nowadays.

    Single motherhood is a great predictor of perpetual poverty. Dropping out of high school is another one. Using payday loans. Using organizations that charges up to 10% to cash a check instead of using free means like a checking account. I can sit here all day naming bad decisions that are prevalent in the lower class community that ultimately are against their self interest THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN.

    Can't even begin to come up with any solution if we keep trying to argue against strawmen.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by aristomaniac View Post
    It is incredible that you are still throwing out the usual strawman. It really would help if you actually make your arguments against what people actually say.

    Poor people are some of the hardest workers I have ever seen in my life. There is never any doubt of that. Single mom has to work 2-3 jobs to support 3-4 kids from 3-4 different fathers. That's a lot of hard work.

    The fact of the matter is poor people aren't poor because they are lazy. They are poor because of the decisions that they have made in their lives THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN. They have been given very bad info and they make those bad decisions based on those bad info.

    Look, hard work alone will not get anyone ahead in life. I can be a ditch digger and dig ditches 16 hours a day. That's a lot of hard work. Doesn't mean my ditch digging gig is worth much nowadays.

    Single motherhood is a great predictor of perpetual poverty. Dropping out of high school is another one. Using payday loans. Using organizations that charges up to 10% to cash a check instead of using free means like a checking account. I can sit here all day naming bad decisions that are prevalent in the lower class community that ultimately are against their self interest THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN.

    Can't even begin to come up with any solution if we keep trying to argue against strawmen.
    Are you two the same person? You responded as if I was talking to/about you.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    Are you two the same person? You responded as if I was talking to/about you.
    Kind of like your cohorts do you mean?
    There are a lot of lazy people that have never burned one.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    @Fabulala Don't play dumb. In the past everytime you and I had a convo about this you always pulled out the typical strawman. I have never said poor people are lazy. I don't believe for a moment that peeonme would ever say poor people are lazy. Everybody knows for the most part that is simply not true. Everybody knows poor people work very very hard with their low wage jobs to keep their heads above water. From what I have seen from peeon, he and I both have been emphasizing a combination of bad choices and lack of ambition.
    Last edited by aristomaniac; August 14th, 2018 at 07:05 PM.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    People that set around and complain and do nothing to help themselves are lazy, lazy, lazy. Hell, I am not talking about blacks, per se. This describes the folks that I grew up with, wring your hands and wish in one pile, shit in the other and see which gets full the quickest. The working poor are not lazy as a whole, but you can find laziness where ever you find people. I found laziness to be a natural human characteristic in my own life, I gave myself some very firm kicks to the ass many times. It's too hot to cut the grass, nope, bull shit, cut it. I don't feel up to fixing my car, would you rather walk?

    I know that I come across as some angry old fart, all I can say is that some things piss me off. The "i can't' attitude is one of those things, perhaps the biggest of them. I never cut my self any slack and I can respect 'tried and failed', not 'never tried'.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by aristomaniac View Post
    I don't believe for a moment that peeonme would ever say poor people are lazy.
    That's funny because he's said it numerous times. In. This. Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by aristomaniac View Post
    From what I have seen from peeon, he and I both have been emphasizing a combination of bad choices and lack of ambition.
    I konw, Reagan taught yall well, your contempt for the lower class shines through and through.

    But I know what this is. Some people who come from humble beginnings develop this chip on their shoulder towards other poor people, especially those who use govt assistance. That contempt that you insist is imaginary is well-documented on every. singe. page. of this thread. Nice try bootz.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
    People that set around and complain and do nothing to help themselves are lazy, lazy, lazy.
    What does this have to do with paying people a livable wage? Oh. Right. Notta damn thang. Strike two bootz.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    What does this have to do with paying people a livable wage? Oh. Right. Notta damn thang. Strike two bootz.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
    Their is no doubt that the worker has been screwed by both parties, the worker is not represented and as much as it hurts, Trump tapped in to that.
    This is the first time I've ever seen you acknowledge that poverty isn't just a result of "lazy potheads."
    You brought up 'lazy' in post 60, I was responding to you, why did you mention lazy in a thread about minimum wage???

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    What does this have to do with paying people a livable wage? Oh. Right. Notta damn thang. Strike two bootz.
    Now, let me ask, what is a livable wage? How many hours should a person work to obtain this? Can a person work part time and complain that they are poor, when full time work is available? Should all people be guaranteed a certain amount of money regardless of if they work or not?

    People should be paid a livable wage, if they work for it.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
    Should all people be guaranteed a certain amount of money regardless of if they work or not?

    People should be paid a livable wage, if they work for it.
    Do you not know what a wage is or are you assuming that I don't? A wage is payment earned by an employee from an employee which explicitly implies that the fucking person will be.... sit down...... wait for it.... WORKING.

    This "if they work" then again.... "IF they work" gives me the slightest impression that you think I want people to just get money just for the fuck-all of it, without earning or working for it. So let's try the non-racist approach where you give my intelligence and integrity the benefit of the doubt that a livable wage [again, which implies paycheck which implies work] is ONLY being offered for people who are... ya know, uhhhh.... working. Cuz, listen to THIS madness...... I have a work ethic and I support others who do too.

    Shocking, I know right? We value hard work too. Who woulda thunk?

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
    People should be paid a livable wage, if they work for it.
    As I mentioned above, how do you determine a 'liveable wage'? Upon whose 'cost of living index' would you base it? It all becomes very complicated when a wage may be liveable in an average town but would be 'barely squeaking by' in a larger city.

    Canadian provinces and territories set their own minimum wages. Is it the same for individual states in the US?
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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by gsdx View Post
    As I mentioned above, how do you determine a 'liveable wage'? Upon whose 'cost of living index' would you base it? It all becomes very complicated when a wage may be liveable in an average town but would be 'barely squeaking by' in a larger city.

    Canadian provinces and territories set their own minimum wages. Is it the same for individual states in the US?
    I'm still trying to figure out why he keeps stressing "work" like we just wanna "It Could Happen To You," get in a hot air balloon and just rain free money down on the peoples.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by gsdx View Post
    As I mentioned above, how do you determine a 'liveable wage'? Upon whose 'cost of living index' would you base it? It all becomes very complicated when a wage may be liveable in an average town but would be 'barely squeaking by' in a larger city.

    Canadian provinces and territories set their own minimum wages. Is it the same for individual states in the US?

    Yes. And I may be wrong, but cities and towns can have an even high wage if they want.
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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Right now the Fed. m.w. is 7.25, it does vary from one state to another. https://www.minimum-wage.org/wage-by-state. The highest I saw was California 11.00, that pay will not help you get by in any state with out some help. A livable or fair wage would almost have to be regional.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by aristomaniac View Post
    poor people have been psychologically conditioned to stay poor. It's called learned helplessness.
    Quote Originally Posted by aristomaniac View Post
    poor people have been given very bad info and they make those bad decisions based on those bad info.
    Id like to learn more about this. Please explain.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    Do you not know what a wage is or are you assuming that I don't? A wage is payment earned by an employee from an employee which explicitly implies that the fucking person will be.... sit down...... wait for it.... WORKING.

    This "if they work" then again.... "IF they work" gives me the slightest impression that you think I want people to just get money just for the fuck-all of it, without earning or working for it. So let's try the non-racist approach where you give my intelligence and integrity the benefit of the doubt that a livable wage [again, which implies paycheck which implies work] is ONLY being offered for people who are... ya know, uhhhh.... working. Cuz, listen to THIS madness...... I have a work ethic and I support others who do too.

    Shocking, I know right? We value hard work too. Who woulda thunk?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaranteed_minimum_income
    The reason I specified work for it. Drop the racist bull shit. You are back on ignore, everything is not about you and your color, get over it.
    Last edited by peeonme; August 15th, 2018 at 08:41 PM.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    I’d like to learn more about this. Please explain.
    Are you handing me the rope to hang myself?

    What more do I have to say about learned helplessness? Just google it if you don't know what it is. I have observed behavior in poor people over and over that demonstrate this. Poor people are also uninformed on a lot of things, like compounded interest and checking account for free cashing of checks. This makes them perfect victims for overzealous salesmen and predatory lenders. It is very expensive to be poor.

    I once had a young homeless man sleeping on my couch. To get him started on having a stable job that he could support himself with, I offered to get him a job in construction. He was very excited. So I talked to HR and have them call him in. Laboring job, nothing too difficult. They could not leave any message because he did not have his voicemail setup. I bugged him for several days before he set up his voicemail. Then I told the hr lady to call again. Still nothing. He had conveniently lost his phone. Ok, I said, I'll drive you in in a couple days and have you do the paperwork there. I really thought he needed some motivation. I told him all he needed was his ID. Well, the day before I was going to take him in, he conveniently lost his wallet. I think that was the perfect demonstration of learned helplessness and self sabotage to keep his current status.

    There was another guy that I took in for a few months. He got a job at this factory. Got a regular income. I'm actually very proud of him as he is now self reliant and lives in his own apartment. While he was staying with me, I taught him all I could and found he had many misconceptions. He did not know his rights. He did not know how to handle money. And he had no idea he could cash his checks for free at certain places. He always thought losing 10% to cash the check at places like payday lenders was the norm.

    I'm guessing you're looking for me to post some right winger rant about how lazy poor people are? It is so easy to demonize those who dare to question the current system. The current school system does nothing to prepare kids for the real world. Why the hell does little Jimmy need to memorize the names of various cloud formations instead of how to open a checking account?

    I say neither the mainstream left nor the mainstream right want to actually help the poor. The right keep forwarding the narrative that poor people are lazy. The left keep blaming past social injustices without proposing any real solution.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by aristomaniac View Post
    Are you handing me the rope to hang myself?
    Who or what is performing the psychological conditioning of the poor and who or what is providing poor people with very bad information?

    Is it the school system alone or something else?

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Who or what is performing the psychological conditioning of the poor and who or what is providing poor people with very bad information?

    Is it the school system alone or something else?
    I don't have all the answers. I suspect the bad info was disseminated by the previous generation. Hence generational poor.

    The psychological conditioning of learned helplessness I suspect is also passed down from generation to generation. Here is an extreme example to make my point.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/lo...=.9a3c99297d4d

    Imagine a kid growing up observing that they are always poor even though his mom works very hard at 2 different jobs. And as far as he knows, he has no father. When he goes to school, his school makes him memorize useless info like geological formations and the shapes of clouds. How do you think he will turn out?

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by aristomaniac View Post
    I suspect
    That's what I wanted to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by aristomaniac View Post
    How do you think he will turn out?
    I didn't look at the linked example, but I think cloud formations are a legitimate subject of interest.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
    My reply that you quote was about the 1% and millionaires. I don't waste time thinking about them and how unfair it is that some have so much and others have virtually nothing. I find that if I take a few moments to marvel at the universe it puts life into perspective for me. I have spent the last 4 years dealing with wheelchairs, hospitals, nursing homes and searching for doctors that would listen. Not to mention building ramps and installing hand grips. While doing these things I have had to do the shopping, cooking, cleaning, the budget, fix cars, cut the grass and clean our home.

    What I battle daily is the temptation to think about how this is all a repeat of my childhood when my family seemed to lazy to wipe their ass, or take out the garbage. If I didn't do it, it didn't get done. As an adult I had my mother living in a senior apartment building. She would fake a black out and the old ladies would grab her keys and inspect her apartment. Then they called an ambulance and then call me and I would find myself at 11:00 at night cleaning her place so she wouldn't be evicted.

    I would get calls at mid night that my brother was hallucinating, again. Then I would find myself at his pigpen home trying to calm him down from a combination of booze and dope.

    So, I look at the stars, the same stars that my dad saw when he was alive, it gives me a connection to the one normal person that was in my family. Be it fair or not, it is what it is, as they say and I deal with it. I don't expect all to cope as well as I did or have, and some will do better then I have. We should do our best, it's all we have.
    I understand where you are coming from, and from the later posts you've made here see that you're not quite where I thought you were in your thinking, though my perspective, as others, would be different to an extent. I wish everyone would reflect... ESPECIALLY those who've made it. And policies that work against those poor, working class, or we once thought comfortably middle class. I get rightfully angry when some of the comfortable and the powerful do their level best to promote their self interests at the expense of everyone else. In the end, we're all star matter, that's what we'll be when we go. Many people just don't have the time to think, because life requires their attention to their own immediate problems, they have their own responsibilities to take care of regarding themselves and families... in fact, I understand why they would say" I haven't the time for it, just deal with it". But sometimes it just isn't easy to deal at all... and their has to be those who are saying, "enough" and even when the message might understandably fail to register with those overwhelmed and somehow able to handle it, keep head above water.... we still are our brother's keeper and we have to care what happens to those struggling. We are regressing in many ways as a country, and we cannot let that continue. I might have issue with some of prescriptions progressives seem to have regarding the economy, but I wholeheartedly reject today's GOP, which cry against"socialism" but promotes everything possible that will result in the pitchforks coming out for them. And for what? The universe is not impressed by millions, or billions, one makes in life. I'd rather us have a legacy of making this planet better for whatever future generations come, and leave it at that. For one day, all this will have the universal significance of a grain of sand compared to the vastness of the heavens. Which would be quite miniscule, indeed.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    I understand where you are coming from, and from the later posts you've made here see that you're not quite where I thought you were in your thinking, though my perspective, as others, would be different to an extent. I wish everyone would reflect... ESPECIALLY those who've made it. And policies that work against those poor, working class, or we once thought comfortably middle class. I get rightfully angry when some of the comfortable and the powerful do their level best to promote their self interests at the expense of everyone else. In the end, we're all star matter, that's what we'll be when we go. Many people just don't have the time to think, because life requires their attention to their own immediate problems, they have their own responsibilities to take care of regarding themselves and families... in fact, I understand why they would say" I haven't the time for it, just deal with it". But sometimes it just isn't easy to deal at all... and their has to be those who are saying, "enough" and even when the message might understandably fail to register with those overwhelmed and somehow able to handle it, keep head above water.... we still are our brother's keeper and we have to care what happens to those struggling. We are regressing in many ways as a country, and we cannot let that continue. I might have issue with some of prescriptions progressives seem to have regarding the economy, but I wholeheartedly reject today's GOP, which cry against"socialism" but promotes everything possible that will result in the pitchforks coming out for them. And for what? The universe is not impressed by millions, or billions, one makes in life. I'd rather us have a legacy of making this planet better for whatever future generations come, and leave it at that. For one day, all this will have the universal significance of a grain of sand compared to the vastness of the heavens. Which would be quite miniscule, indeed.
    The pitchforks will come, we have a two party system that has screwed over the worker since 1980. The working class in our nation is divided and needs to unite with one common goal in mind, one common cause, a better life for all. Not an equal life as far as material things go. If a person wants to live in a 5,000 sq. ft. home, then go for it. Building that home will employ the guys who live in 2,000 sq. ft homes. They will buy goods that employ people that live in apartments or mobile homes or perhaps 'starter'
    homes. No one who works should be left out of the chain when it comes to life's necessities. Workers should be upwardly mobile if they choose to be and are willing to work towards that goal.

    Unfortunately, the working class is fragmented. Political footballs such as race or abortion are used to divide us. The 'con'servatives dangle abortion out there and while we argue about it they pick our pockets and we don't notice, we are too busy arguing.
    So called liberals think that globalization is the best idea since sliced bread and can't see past their academic fog well enough to know that the 'overpaid' (as some would suggest) blue collar jobs were an essential rung in the ladder for the worker. Too many workers and too few jobs equals stagnant low wages.

    The middle class didn't appear by accident, it was planned, by FDR. The middle class hasn't disappeared by accident. It has been a diabolical planned intention plot to push the worker in to low wage jobs. So, we need to raise the minimum wage and maybe find a better term such as living wage. We have mid term elections around the corner. We will hear rhetoric about wages, healthcare, poverty and other issues. Then true to form, who ever gets elected (with a few exceptions) will report to the 1% and await their orders.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaranteed_minimum_income
    The reason I specified work for it. Drop the racist bull shit. You are back on ignore, everything is not about you and your color, get over it.
    Let me do you a solid, PoC will be less inclined to think you're biased if you don't harp at them [like a parent] about hard work as if it's a totally foreign concept to them. The recurring motif of your posts here is that I just wanna shove money down anybody' throat who wants it, whether they work for it or not, even the leeches who live off the govie's teat. [The poor ones, the rich ones are cool ]

    Now... can we discuss this without you reminding me sixteen thousand times about work ethic? You're talking to a man who used to work two jobs, six am to three pm then four pm to midnight. I know what work is. I'm advocating better wages for people who..... wait for it..... WORK.

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
    The pitchforks will come, we have a two party system that has screwed over the worker since 1980.
    only since nineteen eighty?

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    That's what I wanted to know.
    Nice quote mining.

    I didn't look at the linked example, but I think cloud formations are a legitimate subject of interest.
    Can you quote me where I said cloud formations aren't a legit subject of interest?

    Are you trolling me?

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    Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    umpteenquadsuperzillionbamillionquatrilliondundill ion hundred thousand catillion dollars
    No no it's cathillion. (Kinda letting you know I'm still here in a big cluster of activity)

    Quote Originally Posted by aristomaniac View Post
    Poor people are also uninformed on a lot of things, like compounded interest and checking account for free cashing of checks. This makes them perfect victims
    I'll say for as long as I live (because I doubt it will ever change): THIS STUFF SHOULD BE TAUGHT IN SCHOOL.

    Parents don't always have the wherewithal to teach even the most basic essentials. A child is usually taught no better than his/her parents were. In some cases there aren't even two parents to share the load.

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    only since nineteen eighty?
    No, but there were a lot of new tools added to wage suppression and worker exploitation at the time. Reagan fired the Air Control Workers immediately upon entering office, starting the downward spiral of the unions, and that has just alone affected a lot.
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