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  1. #1
    Thank you, Dahling! NotHardUp1's Avatar
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    What is an act of conscience? What is bigotry? Gay cakes? Red Hen hecklers?

    The current debate about the harassment of Trump Administration members like the Press Secretary seems to circle back to the gay cake debate.

    If it's unethical, nay, unconstitutional and illegal to deny services to a fellow citizen from a private business establishment that sells to the public, the how does that standard apply to the refusal to sell to or serve political opponents?

    Why would it be unacceptable for a business owner to refuse to sell a gay wedding cake, yet acceptable for a restaurant owner to deny service to someone not for any conduct as a customer, but for who they were?

    And, I'll be willing to invoke Godwin's Law and say that there seems to be some implied trump (not sorry for the pun) ethic that says if a Nazi is asking for service, it's fine to run him off on principle. Problem is, we already hung out our litmus test for bigotry and illegality with the gay cake controversy?

    I don't see this question as political, but as societal. Where is the line? What is mere incivility and what is bigotry?

    If we were to adopt the position that we oppose by any means, then the path would seemingly lead to civil war or assassination.

    And the besieging of private homes seems something that has come up before, and doesn't seem far removed from mob threatening or menacing.

    From the cheap seats, this looks like desperation from Democrats unable to mobilize without this extreme, and it looks just as ill-fated as Trump's Child Separation policy, sure to backfire.
    Last edited by NotHardUp1; June 27th, 2018 at 01:58 AM.

  2. #2
    too late... Harke the Boeotarch's Avatar
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    Re: What is an act of conscience? What is bigotry? Gay cakes? Red Hen hecklers?

    The Left have always held others to standards that they themselves didn't care to hold themselves to.

  3. #3
    Get it on! peeonme's Avatar
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    Re: What is an act of conscience? What is bigotry? Gay cakes? Red Hen hecklers?

    A restaurant should serve anyone, but it is pretty much a given that they have a right to determine what is proper attire in their establishment. So if people show up sporting nazi symbols and uniforms they could be turned away. Not because of their warped sick views, but because the nazi symbols convey a message that a private establishment does not have to endorse by allowing it to be seen and thereby passively endorsed.

    It lines up with the cake maker's claim of free speech.
    Last edited by peeonme; June 27th, 2018 at 04:40 AM.

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    too late... Harke the Boeotarch's Avatar
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    Re: What is an act of conscience? What is bigotry? Gay cakes? Red Hen hecklers?

    Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
    A restaurant should serve anyone, but it is pretty much a given that they have a right to determine what is proper attire in their establishment. So if people show up sporting nazi symbols and uniforms they could be turned away. Not because of their warped sick views, but because the nazi symbols convey a message that a private establishment does not have to endorse by allowing it to be seen and thereby passively endorsed.

    It lines up with the cake maker's claim of free speech.
    "No blacks, no dogs, no Irishmen."

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    Get it on! peeonme's Avatar
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    Re: What is an act of conscience? What is bigotry? Gay cakes? Red Hen hecklers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch View Post
    "No blacks, no dogs, no Irishmen."
    One's manner of dress is not analogous to one's ethnicity.

  6. #6
    too late... Harke the Boeotarch's Avatar
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    Re: What is an act of conscience? What is bigotry? Gay cakes? Red Hen hecklers?

    Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
    One's manner of dress is not analogous to one's ethnicity.
    If it isn't, one isn't trying hard enough.

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    Re: What is an act of conscience? What is bigotry? Gay cakes? Red Hen hecklers?

    The Supreme court in its last ruling refused to charge anyone one who refused business to a gay individual, but said now anyone can be stoopped from using any business so what happened to Sarah was legal. Remember this comes from one of Trumps pick the acting head of the Supreme Court of Nazi America!

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    Re: What is an act of conscience? What is bigotry? Gay cakes? Red Hen hecklers?

    Thats is bullshit possibly in Hitlers Grmany they may have probably out of being scared to death that theyw old be next! It is one thing to generalize your comment is beyond that!

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    too late... Harke the Boeotarch's Avatar
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    Re: What is an act of conscience? What is bigotry? Gay cakes? Red Hen hecklers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pierresro View Post
    The Supreme court in its last ruling refused to charge anyone one who refused business to a gay individual, but said now anyone can be stoopped from using any business so what happened to Sarah was legal. Remember this comes from one of Trumps pick the acting head of the Supreme Court of Nazi America!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pierresro View Post
    Thats is bullshit possibly in Hitlers Grmany they may have probably out of being scared to death that theyw old be next! It is one thing to generalize your comment is beyond that!
    Cool down! Go watch a Nicki Minay video or something.

  10. #10
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    Re: What is an act of conscience? What is bigotry? Gay cakes? Red Hen hecklers?

    To me it is arguable that a cake shop owner has the right to refuse to sell a "gay" wedding cake but does not have the right to refuse gays entry to the store or service in the purchase of another type of cake. Just as someone may have a hard time getting a pork chop in a Kosher restaurant but is otherwise free to stay and have something else.

  11. #11
    Thank you, Dahling! NotHardUp1's Avatar
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    Re: What is an act of conscience? What is bigotry? Gay cakes? Red Hen hecklers?

    At some point, I think every soul has the right and duty to live out one's conscience, but in terms of operating a public business, when one begins to refuse service at an absolute level, it will be at the peril of the business itself.

    I don't think I would ever counsel someone to deny his conscience, be he Fundamentalist or Feminist, but it should be with eyes wide open. Luther defied Rome with the full expectation that it might cost him his life, not just his cowl. If I decide to take a stand on some issue and project it out in society, that stand may well have severe consequences, financially, socially, and even legally.

    In the case of the Red Hen proprietor, it is recorded that she actually left her business to follow the Sanders party to the restaurant across the street, and began a protest on the spot trying to humiliate them into leaving restaurant too. At that point, the act of conscience, of not wanting the Administration's minions to be seen and served on here property, shifted to what would appear to be simply targeted harassment.

    No matter what your political tilt, that sort of behavior is almost certainly going to reap a blowback that will be hard to deal with, as indeed the co-owner of the Red Hen has learned. I would hope that she intended to take such a risk, as it was entirely predictable.

    And, as always, the president in turn once again degraded both the Office of the President and the entire nation by his petty defamation of the business.

    I cannot imagine any policy of the current administration that I agree with, yet I don't want a country where we are so polarized that we cannot even respect fellow citizens.

  12. #12
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    Re: What is an act of conscience? What is bigotry? Gay cakes? Red Hen hecklers?

    The Supreme Court has given the right to refuse service to anyone not protected by the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

    Federal protected classes include:
    Race.
    Color.
    Religion or creed.
    National origin or ancestry.
    Sex.
    Age.
    Physical or mental disability.
    Veteran status.
    Genetic information.
    Citizenship.

    So as you see "Sexual Orientation" is not covered.

    So if a restaurant wants to refuse service to Gay people on the owners beliefs then by the Courts ruling they can.

    Hatred and disrespect was introduced by Trump and his followers during the Presidential race and continues today.

    I am hoping that we can get the Senate to hold off on replacing Justice Kennedy till after midterm elections. I think we may be able to get some help if Senator McCain can hold off voting but if his health gets worst and he has to be replaced Arizona law states that he can only be replaced by general election which would leave the seat empty till November.

  13. #13
    Thank you, Dahling! NotHardUp1's Avatar
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    Re: What is an act of conscience? What is bigotry? Gay cakes? Red Hen hecklers?

    I fear Senator McCain has little time left.

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    Re: What is an act of conscience? What is bigotry? Gay cakes? Red Hen hecklers?

    Quote Originally Posted by NotHardUp1 View Post
    I fear Senator McCain has little time left.
    I agree. I hope that with all of Trumps negative comments he has made about Senator McCain will cause the Arizona voters to vote for a Democratic candidate.

  15. #15
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: What is an act of conscience? What is bigotry? Gay cakes? Red Hen hecklers?

    Quote Originally Posted by NotHardUp1 View Post
    In the case of the Red Hen proprietor, it is recorded that she actually left her business to follow the Sanders party to the restaurant across the street, and began a protest on the spot trying to humiliate them into leaving [that] restaurant too.
    I’m not sure I trust the source of that story. He’s the same guy who recently posted a fake image of Nancy Pelosi’s campaign committee on Twitter. Additionally, I don’t think he was present at the Red Hen Restaurant on the day of the incident.


    Sarah Sanders heckled by Red Hen owner even after leaving, Mike Huckabee says (Fox News; The Intelligence Report with Trish Regan; June 25, 2018)

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    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: What is an act of conscience? What is bigotry? Gay cakes? Red Hen hecklers?

    ?

    Refusing all black people service because they are black, is not the same thing as refusing all Sarah Huckabee Sanders' service because she lies, promotes lies, apologizes for lies, and generally rolls in lies.

    If the right wants to cry about this, they shouldn't have made it legal, and frankly protesting a government official is not discrimination.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: What is an act of conscience? What is bigotry? Gay cakes? Red Hen hecklers?

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    I’m not sure I trust the source of that story. He’s the same guy who recently posted a fake image of Nancy Pelosi’s campaign committee on Twitter. Additionally, I don’t think he was present at the Red Hen Restaurant on the day of the incident.


    Sarah Sanders heckled by Red Hen owner even after leaving, Mike Huckabee says (Fox News; The Intelligence Report with Trish Regan; June 25, 2018)
    Oops......
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  18. #18
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    Re: What is an act of conscience? What is bigotry? Gay cakes? Red Hen hecklers?

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    ?

    Refusing all black people service because they are black, is not the same thing as refusing all Sarah Huckabee Sanders' service because she lies, promotes lies, apologizes for lies, and generally rolls in lies.

    If the right wants to cry about this, they shouldn't have made it legal, and frankly protesting a government official is not discrimination.
    This. This all fucking day. I've never fallen for the false dichotomy that respect for minorities is hypocritical if it doesn't include respect [or in this case service] for people whose "beliefs are different from yours"-- liars and the corrupt are not a minority, are not vulnerable and their incorrigible beliefs do not need to be recognized. Nope. Refuse her service all day every day and twice on Sunday if you want, makes me no nevermind.

  19. #19
    JUB Addict ballcaphair's Avatar
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    Re: What is an act of conscience? What is bigotry? Gay cakes? Red Hen hecklers?

    I may be way off the mark here, but I'm not going to invite Chick-fil-A to my wedding - whether I marry a boy or a girl.
    See how beautiful we are and blessed, too. Together we are excellent.

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