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  1. #151
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    An American citizen literally has a right, with not a hint of hypocrisy, to close the border and tell everyone to fuck off. EXCEPT for a refugee, because a whole bunch of American citizens already voted for a government to sign a treaty requiring it to accept refugees. Again this stolen land nonsense just fills airtime when you could be making the case for why it would be dumb to close the border. The right is there though
    Let's talk about actual legality.

    An American citizen has no right to make any kind of immigration law, close or open any borders, decide where any borders are, or decide who comes or goes. That is reserved to congress. All an American citizen has the right to do is vote, and even then an American citizen has no right to elect a President who is in charge of enforcing the law that congress chooses to make. So no, on all points. Congress has chosen to make incredibly discriminatory immigration law. American citizens have been trying to change this forever.

    American citizens by a margin of damn near 3,000,000,000 votes elected Hillary. Once again, American citizens do not elect a President.

    American citizens, unfortunately for you are mostly in favor of immigration, guest worker programs, paths to citizenship for children brought as minors, AND refugees. So why are we in this position?

    BECAUSE THE RIGHT WING IS USING IMMIGRATION TO TERRIFY IT'S RACIST BASE!

    That's all, nothing else.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  2. #152
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    What's nonsense is pretending that this is something else.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  3. #153
    Get it on! peeonme's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    BTW I also was born here so by your own logic you are a huge hypocrite for telling me to give things away!
    But, you by your own words admit to being a land thief who has no say in electing people to make laws that control unlawful entry in to a land that is not yours. I am only saying that if you truly believe what you say then live by it, give back that land.

  4. #154
    JUB Addict Mariatenebre's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    No. No it's not. It's not a human right to set up shop on stolen land. And no one with a modicum of human decency would do so. Of course the operative word there is "decency."
    Again with this stolen land nonsense. Every people and every race has stolen land from each other. Pretty much every Islamic nation stole their lands from kafirs and they still enslave Africans like you and treat them in conditions honestly worse then the European slave trade not to mention countless African nations stole lands from each other. Need I mention the Dahomey Empire again? The difference is the US has done it's damnest and really more then any other nation to make amends for the people they wronged. The US is a nation now and we have full right to police our borders. Do I necessarily agree with how immigrants namely Mexicans and Latin Americans are being treated no but again we have to vet the people who come in here. If you don't you get shit like in Europe where Muslims establish no go zones and Islamic rape gangs and terror attacks etc.

  5. #155
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    American citizens … are mostly in favor of immigration, guest worker programs, paths to citizenship for children brought as minors, AND refugees.
    Record-High 75% of Americans Say Immigration Is Good Thing (Gallup; June 21, 2018)

    What The Latest Immigration Polls Do (And Don't) Say (NPR; January 23, 2018)


    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    … admit that the people trying to seek asylum TRIED TO FOLLOW THE LAW
    There are likely exceptions.


    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    … an American citizen has no right to elect a President
    US Americans do not directly elect their president; however, they do participate in the selection of persons seeking to hold that office.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mariatenebre View Post
    … we have to vet the people who come in here.
    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    THE RIGHT WING IS USING IMMIGRATION TO TERRIFY IT'S RACIST BASE!
    Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
    … give back that land.
    What happens if the original owners are deceased with no next of kin?
    “It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.”

    – Henry David Thoreau

  6. #156
    Get it on! peeonme's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    What happens if the original owners are deceased with no next of kin?

    When claims are made to show that the land was at one time taken illegitimately by the ancestors of those who own it today to make an argument against controlled borders it behooves those making such a claim to act in what they see as an honorable fashion by relinquishing any control or ownership so that their arguments are substantiated by their actions.

    If the land was at one time occupied by a certain tribe of native Americans it could be deeded over to the reservation of that tribe that still exists today. I do not feel that Americans have that obligation, but those who cry foul and say that we have no right to control land that was obtained in said fashion need to put their money (or property) where their mouth is.

  7. #157
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
    (Paraphrased)

    Those who own US land that was long ago taken illegitimately owe no obligation to relinquish any control or ownership in that land to someone else – even if it was the landowners’ ancestors that long ago took the land from the people who then called it home.
    Is the above iteration^ a reasonable representation of the main concept from your post?


    Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
    … the reservation of that tribe that still exists today.
    The 2015 US Native American population (including Alaska Natives and those of more than one race) was about 6.6 million. Native Americans who called this place home back when Columbus showed up numbered about 54 million.

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    What happens if the original owners are deceased with no next of kin?
    “It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.”

    – Henry David Thoreau

  8. #158
    Get it on! peeonme's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Is the above iteration^ a reasonable representation of the main concept from your post?
    My intent is to show the futility in making a claim that our country has no right to turn illegal aliens away because our ancestors took the land from native Americans. We can't change history and I take no responsibility for it inasmuch as I didn't make it happen.
    If one feels that their land is ill gotten gain they can ease their conscience and vindicate themselves by vacating the land that they feel so guilty for owning.

    In reality, we are where we are at. The whole 'stolen land' argument just muddies the waters. The claim that we want controlled immigration because we (who ever "we" is) don't like or want 'brown' people might be true in some cases, but again it is an attempt to use a race issue to fight a border issue.

    Many nations have a merit based immigration system. My close neighbors in Canada are in that group. Immigration and asylum are often used interchangeably by some. If I like Canada and want to live there because I feel as though it would benefit me due to less crime, national health care and just a less stressful life I can apply for a visa to immigrate, I did this just to see what would happen, Canada told me no. Being retired and not having enough money were the reasons.

    Now if I show up at their border and ask for asylum because of political or religious persecution (I am sure there are other cause , but these readily come to mind) then under treaty I am entitled to a hearing to see if my request for asylum is legitimate. If it is not I will be turned away.

    Is Canada wrong? In no way. Should the USA have the right to regulate who enters and for what reason, of course. So, using the 'stolen land' and 'you don't like brown people' arguments have no merit.

    It was a lunkhead idea to separate families and it backfired, that doesn't mean that we should have an open unguarded and unregulated
    border anyplace where anyone can just move in, that is not how the world works today.

  9. #159
    JUB Addict bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
    My intent is to show the futility in making a claim that our country has no right to turn illegal aliens away because our ancestors took the land from native Americans. We can't change history and I take no responsibility for it inasmuch as I didn't make it happen.
    If one feels that their land is ill gotten gain they can ease their conscience and vindicate themselves by vacating the land that they feel so guilty for owning.

    In reality, we are where we are at. The whole 'stolen land' argument just muddies the waters. The claim that we want controlled immigration because we (who ever "we" is) don't like or want 'brown' people might be true in some cases, but again it is an attempt to use a race issue to fight a border issue.

    Many nations have a merit based immigration system. My close neighbors in Canada are in that group. Immigration and asylum are often used interchangeably by some. If I like Canada and want to live there because I feel as though it would benefit me due to less crime, national health care and just a less stressful life I can apply for a visa to immigrate, I did this just to see what would happen, Canada told me no. Being retired and not having enough money were the reasons.

    Now if I show up at their border and ask for asylum because of political or religious persecution (I am sure there are other cause , but these readily come to mind) then under treaty I am entitled to a hearing to see if my request for asylum is legitimate. If it is not I will be turned away.

    Is Canada wrong? In no way. Should the USA have the right to regulate who enters and for what reason, of course. So, using the 'stolen land' and 'you don't like brown people' arguments have no merit.

    It was a lunkhead idea to separate families and it backfired, that doesn't mean that we should have an open unguarded and unregulated
    border anyplace where anyone can just move in, that is not how the world works today.
    What you say here is all totally reasonable and fair, and I back that 100%. But a hell of a lot depends on how serious you are about the bold part. Our two countries have a long tradition of humanitarian concern for immigrants, and a very long legal history entered into by treaty. We uphold general international refugee provisions, but even just between Canada and the US, we have got a sensible agreement we both signed together on refugees. As a rule we don't accept refugees travelling from the US and Americans don't accept refugees travelling via Canada. Why? Because refugees are supposed to find a safe haven to survive their troubles, not shop around for their favourite place to live. So if someone from North Korea drifts over to the Canadian coast, they can't decide they'd rather be a refugee in California. If someone from Venezuela makes it to the US, they can't decide they'd rather come up to Montreal.

    But I have to say the irresponsible and ridiculous things that orange buffoon has been saying since he got in made me seriously wonder if Canada should pull out of that agreement. Until now I had no problem turning away a refugee at the US border because Americans have a process that person can use. I had no problem accepting refugees that the Americans turned back because if they came here first, they should use our refugee process. Exactly the same reason. But Trump has said so many stupid things and done so many things badly, i seriously wonder if the US is pulling its weight and giving legitimate refugees a fair hearing. If they don't then we can't have anything to do with it.

    So I totally agree, but you guys have to live up to that bold part. Can you really say that is happening if children (who are OBVIOUSLY 100% innocent of anything) are separated from their parents and can't even be matched up to them, even just to be deported again, because the US government has fucked this up so badly.
    Policing tone and getting shit done!

  10. #160
    Get it on! peeonme's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    What you say here is all totally reasonable and fair, and I back that 100%. But a hell of a lot depends on how serious you are about the bold part. Our two countries have a long tradition of humanitarian concern for immigrants, and a very long legal history entered into by treaty. We uphold general international refugee provisions, but even just between Canada and the US, we have got a sensible agreement we both signed together on refugees. As a rule we don't accept refugees travelling from the US and Americans don't accept refugees travelling via Canada. Why? Because refugees are supposed to find a safe haven to survive their troubles, not shop around for their favourite place to live. So if someone from North Korea drifts over to the Canadian coast, they can't decide they'd rather be a refugee in California. If someone from Venezuela makes it to the US, they can't decide they'd rather come up to Montreal.

    But I have to say the irresponsible and ridiculous things that orange buffoon has been saying since he got in made me seriously wonder if Canada should pull out of that agreement. Until now I had no problem turning away a refugee at the US border because Americans have a process that person can use. I had no problem accepting refugees that the Americans turned back because if they came here first, they should use our refugee process. Exactly the same reason. But Trump has said so many stupid things and done so many things badly, i seriously wonder if the US is pulling its weight and giving legitimate refugees a fair hearing. If they don't then we can't have anything to do with it.

    So I totally agree, but you guys have to live up to that bold part. Can you really say that is happening if children (who are OBVIOUSLY 100% innocent of anything) are separated from their parents and can't even be matched up to them, even just to be deported again, because the US government has fucked this up so badly.
    I agree with you, I believe that the USA has to use a fair, lawful and methodical, not to mention legal system to deal with border issues.
    It is an issue that should have been dealt with a long time ago. From my own experience I find that my Hispanic neighbors get up, go to work and contribute, so I have no issue with 'brown people'. I just like things done in an orderly legal fashion.

  11. #161
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    … me waiting for someone to give a non-racist reason to be so heavily anti-immigration
    Do you think it exists?


    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    (From linked article)
    Immigration that benefits [present citizens of the United States] is welcome; immigration that does not, should not be welcome. This calculus is not a purely economic one. Loss of cultural cohesion is a harm. Fostering a more divisive and radical politics is a harm. The corrosion of legality is a harm.
    “It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.”

    – Henry David Thoreau

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