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  1. #51
    JUB Addict bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    Um, wait, I thought that Alaska was RUSSIAN territory, that we bought from them, and the UK had nothing to do with it?

    Interesting that the purchase ($7 million) happened in the same year as Confederation, though.

    Not sure the UK had dibs exactly, but I gather they had the first crack at making an offer to purchase Alaska from the Russians and then said no. I think that was a mistake, and I’m grumpy about it.
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  2. #52
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    My point is that modern countries are legitimate, and the citizens of any country have a right to decide who may come and go across the border, and who “stole” what from whom five hundred years ago is 100% totally irrelevant to that. Our countries and our borders are ours to secure. The only exception where someone can walk up to your border and say “I’m coming in” is when they are a refugee fleeing a situation they probably can’t survive. That the only time all of those free countries agreed to allow something like that, and they did it with treaties about refugees that they freely signed.

    Any other type of immigrant is there at the whim of the host country. There is just no right to move to a country you feel like and live there as long as you please. That is an imagined right. It doesn’t exist. People applying for asylum are literally LEGAL immigrants, even if they show up with fake papers, even if they sneak onto the plane. But they have to PROVE their claim of asylum to justify their actions, and then they have a RIGHT to enter. The discussions we have now are often about people who do not fit those criteria. They just came because they felt like it or they felt entitled, and it doesn’t help anyone to pretend otherwise.
    There is no such thing as a "legitimate" country. "Legitimate" is some kind of value judgment that is of course subject to whom you ask, all borders and countries are maintained by force of arms. This has never been different. There is nothing magical and special about modern countries that makes them any different in this regard from the Roman Empire.

    The red herring the racists are pursuing is in the form of the question in the OP, which is exactly the same kind of question as "...how many children did you molest today..." A question with a dishonest premise that's designed to produce a specific dilemma.

    The people losing their children PRESENTED THEMSELVES AT THE BORDER TO LEGALLY REQUEST ASYLUM! Yet Mickey and his ilk are trying to claim they are some kind of illegal horde here to steal your shit.

    Fuck that, I have a soul and this is abhorrent.
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  3. #53
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by SeaCore View Post
    Please, please can we just not go there and stay on the topic? Yes, we've had slavery around the world but it's been expressed and addressed in wildly different ways and having wildly different aftermaths. It is a whole involved topic that is worth having but really warrants it's own dedicated topic. In addition you don't know if Fab is okay with the immigration policies in those other countries so you're effectively strawmanning them. And can we please go ahead and agree that what is happening with the immigration from Mexico is abhorrent and desperately needs to change? I know neither one of you mentioned it but some common ground would be nice.
    I'm going to make a quick adjustment. The issue happening with immigration is abhorrent and desperately needs to stop. That is what I should have said.
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  4. #54
    JUB Addict bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    There is no such thing as a "legitimate" country. "Legitimate" is some kind of value judgment that is of course subject to whom you ask, all borders and countries are maintained by force of arms. This has never been different. There is nothing magical and special about modern countries that makes them any different in this regard from the Roman Empire.
    Nah there’s a little more history in it than that. The Peace of Westphalia in 1648 more or less invented the modern idea of a country. Prior to that you had lords and vassals in Europe. Land ownership was a matter of agreement or disagreement between neighbours (which one could afford to lose the most vassals in armed conflict). And there wasn’t citizenship but personal allegiance to your lord and master.

    Westphalia settles the idea of formal borders and that all within those borders were part of a defined country. The principles of. Sovereignty and citizenship were sketched out. It’s not that old an invention even within Europe. Since then countries have more an more been based on assent and negotiation, and they just do have a greater degree of legitimacy. Take some disruption Hobbesian view of realpolitik power if you like but oh well, that’s not the history of it.

    So first land claims in Europe were sorted out. Then citizenry was defined. And those citizens began to have human rights apart from what their lord and master designed to give them, for having done no act of service to their prince other than just being born. It’s a beautiful transformation and those foundations are also where we eventually built our claims for rights. So yes, the whole thing is legitimate and not to be dismissed just because it took a while to catch on.
    The red herring the racists are pursuing is in the form of the question in the OP, which is exactly the same kind of question as "...how many children did you molest today..." A question with a dishonest premise that's designed to produce a specific dilemma.

    The people losing their children PRESENTED THEMSELVES AT THE BORDER TO LEGALLY REQUEST ASYLUM! Yet Mickey and his ilk are trying to claim they are some kind of illegal horde here to steal your shit.

    Fuck that, I have a soul and this is abhorrent.
    It is abhorrent. When I want to win an argument against something abhorrent, the first thing I look for is a red herring that is actually truthfully a herring. Yes, I say, you have found the herring. It is indeed a herring. I see that it is a herring. Anyone can see it is a herring. Now let’s talk about abominations.

    The opponents of Trump are really determined not to talk about the herring. In that they make the same mistake as activists for the last 15-20 years who don’t want to talk about the herring because they think the discussion should be about something else. But I can smell the herring going off from here. To mix my fish metaphors, something is rotten in the state of Denmark and it’s that damned fish.

    So please let us all just say it: illegal immigration is wrong. They aren’t “undocumented migrants.” They’re not “marginalized post-colonial bla bla bla whatevers. Illegal immigrants are lawbreakers who should be found and deported. THAT’S the point that humanitarian civilised people need to own. We need to leave no doubt at all that the borders of a modern country are its to control and anyone who wishes to cross them need to do so only with the authority of the law, or they must face swift justice for ignoring the law.

    When civilised humanitarians can bring themselves to stand up for that principle and make those arguments again, then and only then will people trust them. And once civilised people own the rule of law and the integrity of the border once more, THEN they can win arguments to say “But actually a refugee is NOT an illegal immigrant. And actually we don’t need to tear people away from the only country they’ve ever known because someone else broke the law and brought them here when they were too young to read.

    The problem I have is not the outrage with Trump’s concentration camps or child kidnapping, I share that outrage. But the foundations and the principles beneath that outrage have not been tended to in 20 years.
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    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Oh come on, every sovereignty has justified itself in some way. Divine right of kings, consent of the people, and yet, the basic fact remains that all sovereignties are maintained by force of arms. Including modern European ones, and Canada, and the U.S. and if you want to talk legal hair splitting, neither under your law nor ours does receiving stolen property transfer title so, poof, you need to be heading back to wherever it is your ancestors came from. You are illegal.

    Once again:

    THE PEOPLE LOSING THIER CHILDREN PRESENTED THEMSELVES LEGALY AT THE BORDER TO ASK FOR ASYLUM!

    - - - Updated - - -

    They were arrested justified by your argument, which is just a lie, and then their children were kidnapped as punishment.
    Last edited by TX-Beau; June 25th, 2018 at 10:14 PM.
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  6. #56
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    So TX-Beau is it accurate to say you don't think borders should exist? I'm not sure I understand your viewpoint. What exactly do you want to see all countries do as far as borders are concerned. (Besides children not being taken from their families)
    You're not advocating for some sort of one-world-nation are you?
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  7. #57
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by SeaCore View Post
    So TX-Beau is it accurate to say you don't think borders should exist? I'm not sure I understand your viewpoint. What exactly do you want to see all countries do as far as borders are concerned. (Besides children not being taken from their families)
    You're not advocating for some sort of one-world-nation are you?
    Exactly where did I say any of that? Nowhere, you said it, and you are responsible for it. All this whining about illegal is just bullshit since the people losing their kids DID NOT TRY TO ENTER ILLEGALLY! The OP and his Orange Hero have done their level best to obfuscate that simple fact.

    If you want to start a thread that is actually about borders and immigration and not just racist dog whistles I will be happy to come over.
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  8. #58
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Not sure the UK had dibs exactly, but I gather they had the first crack at making an offer to purchase Alaska from the Russians and then said no. I think that was a mistake, and I’m grumpy about it.
    *chills up my spine*

    You mean (*GULP*!!!) Sarah Palin might have been Canadian!!???
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Exactly where did I say any of that? Nowhere, you said it, and you are responsible for it. All this whining about illegal is just bullshit since the people losing their kids DID NOT TRY TO ENTER ILLEGALLY! The OP and his Orange Hero have done their level best to obfuscate that simple fact.

    If you want to start a thread that is actually about borders and immigration and not just racist dog whistles I will be happy to come over.
    I didn't claim you did, I asked if that would be accurate and your answer is 'no' which is fine.

    I don't see that as necessary. A sub-discussion has started in this thread about borders and immigration which I think is related sufficiently to the topic to not be off-topic. Making a new thread isn't going to get rid of any dog whistles. Why in particular do you want a new one?
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  10. #60
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    People presenting themselves at a border can't be arrested until they cross that border. Surely the USA didn't cross the border and go into Mexico and arrest those standing on foreign soil, did they?

    If I were to seek asylum in Canada for personal safety I would not go to some place in the wilderness in the dead of night and sneak in.
    I would present myself at a point of entry and plead my cause and ask for help.

  11. #61
    Porn Star willhunt's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by SeaCore View Post
    I'm going to make a quick adjustment. The issue happening with immigration is abhorrent and desperately needs to stop. That is what I should have said.
    Well said. Leveraging terrified families, especially children, is no better than the Taliban hiding in a group of families and children. Trump, Pense, and Sessions are terrorists. Period.
    Basic math: There are so many apples in the bushel... Reality: Some of us are picking apples we cannot afford. - ballcaphair

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    ***** queen fabulouslyghetto's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
    People presenting themselves at a border can't be arrested until they cross that border. Surely the USA didn't cross the border and go into Mexico and arrest those standing on foreign soil, did they?

    If I were to seek asylum in Canada for personal safety I would not go to some place in the wilderness in the dead of night and sneak in.
    I would present myself at a point of entry and plead my cause and ask for help.
    Not the same thing, Canadians aren't bigoted towards Americans. Let's just call a spade a spade, 95% of anti-immigration rhetoric is people dancing around in circles finding as many ways as they can to say "I just don't want mexicans in my country" without actually saying it.

  13. #63
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    There is no such thing as a "legitimate" country. "Legitimate" is some kind of value judgment that is of course subject to whom you ask, all borders and countries are maintained by force of arms. This has never been different. There is nothing magical and special about modern countries that makes them any different in this regard from the Roman Empire.

    The red herring the racists are pursuing is in the form of the question in the OP, which is exactly the same kind of question as "...how many children did you molest today..." A question with a dishonest premise that's designed to produce a specific dilemma.

    The people losing their children PRESENTED THEMSELVES AT THE BORDER TO LEGALLY REQUEST ASYLUM! Yet Mickey and his ilk are trying to claim they are some kind of illegal horde here to steal your shit.

    Fuck that, I have a soul and this is abhorrent.
    Best fucking post in this entire thread.

  14. #64
    Get it on! peeonme's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    Not the same thing, Canadians aren't bigoted towards Americans. Let's just call a spade a spade, 95% of anti-immigration rhetoric is people dancing around in circles finding as many ways as they can to say "I just don't want mexicans in my country" without actually saying it.
    Have you read some of the posts that Canadians have made about America? Many of those crossing illegally are not Mexicans, but that really isn't relevant. Many of my neighbors are Hispanic, it doesn't matter to me one way or another.

    And it is the same thing, a nation has the right to control who enters their country.

  15. #65
    JUB Addict bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Oh come on, every sovereignty has justified itself in some way. Divine right of kings, consent of the people, and yet, the basic fact remains that all sovereignties are maintained by force of arms. Including modern European ones, and Canada, and the U.S. and if you want to talk legal hair splitting, neither under your law nor ours does receiving stolen property transfer title so, poof, you need to be heading back to wherever it is your ancestors came from. You are illegal.

    Once again:

    THE PEOPLE LOSING THIER CHILDREN PRESENTED THEMSELVES LEGALY AT THE BORDER TO ASK FOR ASYLUM!

    - - - Updated - - -

    They were arrested justified by your argument, which is just a lie, and then their children were kidnapped as punishment.
    Your anger is blinding you to things like facts and history and the rule of law, and that isn’t how you fix injustices.

    Sovereignty is a useful thing to have, especially if you get it under democratic control, and bound by the values of human rights.

    What you are saying is a nation or a sovereign power is just illegitimate because they all are, and/or how they behaved 500 years ago makes them continuous unbroken hypocrites until today.

    Fuck all of that with a dry tree branch.

    The only thin your ideas can lead to is the fantasy that anarchy is better than government. If Trump is a tyrant, not because of what he does or how he does it, but because governments themselves are all illegitimate and sovereignty itself is worthless, then go have your peasant’s revolt. It won’t accomplish anything. Governments should not be held to account for 500 year old nonsense unless they are also held to account for thousand year old nonsense. And thousand year old nonsense doesn’t count unless we go after the two-thousand-year-old criminals of their age. So let’s be sure to have the celts blame the Angles and the Saxons, and they can blame the Italians and their so-called colonialist emperor Hadrian, and then we can work forward to the present day.

    Would-be immigrants have no business coming to any country on account of how that country did or did not behave hundreds of years before they were born. The painful failure to admit that over and over gives straight-up old school racists the thing they want most of all: someone else who gives them the appearance of looking credible.

    The way again the ONLY way to get around this clusterfuck of 20 years of mismanaged immigration rhetoric is to get back to the principles that citizenship means something, borders mean something, and it is for the citizens of a country to decide who is allowed to cross those borders, not any individual who feels entitled to show up. And the person least worthy of that privilege is the one who shows up and sneaks in on the basis of some theory of entitlement.

    People who believe in a humane, open border HAVE to make those points or were fucked. David Frum said all that needed to be said, i don’t know why I’m talking here I just remembered the quote:
    When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders, then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do.
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    ***** queen fabulouslyghetto's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
    And it is the same thing, a nation has the right to control who enters their country.
    Too bad nobody told the native Americans that Anti-immigration is nothing but white nationalism trying to call itself anything but what it is. The arrogance of claiming stolen lands and deeming ourselves the gatekeepers is so obnoxious it's unfathomable for someone like me who knows American history and has actual compassion for immigrants. And then, because there isn't enough irony in all this, anti-immigration folks bitch and moan about how immigrants should have to pass an exam that they wouldn't even be able to pass.

    No. It is NOT a nation's right to patrol it's borders, you know why? Nations don't exist. It's an imaginary construct, it's all the same big ball of dirt and gas and water and the sooner we do away with these silly false divisions the better off we will be. Yes, that'll mean more Mexican neighbors but hey at least people who live on THIS piece of dirt won't be warring with people who live on THAT piece of dirt all because their piece of dirt has a different name.

    bring on the immigrants, as many as we can hold, and then some

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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Here's an ACLU link to petition for civility for the children. I'd rather donate directly to the immigrants and children, but the Feds won't allow it. The kids are f*cked for life.

    https://action.aclu.org/petition/cbp...nitms_chan=web
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    JUB Addict smokeshadow's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    Too bad nobody told the native Americans that Anti-immigration is nothing but white nationalism trying to call itself anything but what it is. The arrogance of claiming stolen lands and deeming ourselves the gatekeepers is so obnoxious it's unfathomable for someone like me who knows American history and has actual compassion for immigrants. And then, because there isn't enough irony in all this, anti-immigration folks bitch and moan about how immigrants should have to pass an exam that they wouldn't even be able to pass.

    No. It is NOT a nation's right to patrol it's borders, you know why? Nations don't exist. It's an imaginary construct, it's all the same big ball of dirt and gas and water and the sooner we do away with these silly false divisions the better off we will be. Yes, that'll mean more Mexican neighbors but hey at least people who live on THIS piece of dirt won't be warring with people who live on THAT piece of dirt all because their piece of dirt has a different name.

    bring on the immigrants, as many as we can hold, and then some
    This needs to be repeated ad infinitum, ad nauseum

  19. #69
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    David Frum said all that needed to be said, i don’t know why I’m talking here I just remembered the quote:
    When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders, then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do.
    Link to article containing the Frum quote:

    The Roots of a Counterproductive Immigration Policy

    The liberal scorn for nationhood and refusal to adapt immigration policy to changing circumstances enables the rise of extremism in the West.

    (698 words) – (The Atlantic; David Frum; January 2017)
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    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    Too bad nobody told the native Americans that
    Though Native American tribes sometimes worked together to achieve common goals, there was no central authority under which the tribes were governed. They essentially functioned as independent sovereign nations.

    “It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.”

    – Henry David Thoreau

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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Though Native American tribes sometimes worked together to achieve common goals, there was no central authority under which the tribes were governed. They essentially functioned as independent sovereign nations.<br>
    <div style="margin-left:40px"><a href="https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/01/30/2018-01907/indian-entities-recognized-and-eligible-to-receive-services-from-the-united-states-bureau-of-indian" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Indian Entities Recognized and Eligible To Receive Services From the United States Bureau of Indian Affairs</a><br>
    <font size="1">(<em>US Federal Register</em>; updated January 30, 2018)</font></div>
    <br>


    Our "civilized" nation bastardized and conglomerated Tribes for convince.

    mr trump or mr un might as well have written the treaties that were actually lies.

    Regarding Native nations, interaction and duration of annuities. You can find first hand comments in <u>The Diary of Christopher Carson</u>.
    Last edited by ballcaphair; June 27th, 2018 at 09:55 AM.
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Though Native American tribes sometimes worked together to achieve common goals, there was no central authority under which the tribes were governed. They essentially functioned as independent sovereign nations.
    Oh really? I didn't learn that in third grade. irrespective, the point being a nation built on slavery and genocide ought to be at least a little bit more accomodating of those who wish to pursue the ideals sung about in that anthem everybody loves to jerk off to. it's long overdue to cut the racist bullshit and let these people into our country, what's the fuckin hold up? a century from now people will read about this obnoxious bigotry with bewilderment and question how a country that waxes poetic about liberty and all that other quasi-patriotic horse cum find it so challenging to just let brown people cross the border? i hope they don't even mention the silly wall proposal, that the idea is coming from POTUS makes it infinitely more embarrassing. and here's the kicker, the people who have such a gripe about hispanic people moving in are the same ones who claim to be pro life, how's that for audacity? this is all really sickening and I go out of my way to let immigrants know they're welcome in America and the shit bags who give them grief for their culture are not representative of most Americans.

  23. #73
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Your anger is blinding you to things like facts and history and the rule of law, and that isn’t how you fix injustices.

    Sovereignty is a useful thing to have, especially if you get it under democratic control, and bound by the values of human rights.

    What you are saying is a nation or a sovereign power is just illegitimate because they all are, and/or how they behaved 500 years ago makes them continuous unbroken hypocrites until today.

    Fuck all of that with a dry tree branch.
    No I'm not. I'm saying that any sovereignty no matter how benign or evil is maintained by force of arms which is a pretty fucking basic fact. As to legitimate, some people think Canada is legitimate some don't. I don't give a shit because that is just an opinion that means nothing. Canada exists because it says it does and can defend itself. Good, bad, green, blue, happy, sad - toss all the philosophy at it that you want the basic FACT of sovereignty is that you only have the rights you can defend, which has fuck all to do with the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    The only thin your ideas can lead to is the fantasy that anarchy is better than government. If Trump is a tyrant, not because of what he does or how he does it, but because governments themselves are all illegitimate and sovereignty itself is worthless, then go have your peasant’s revolt. It won’t accomplish anything. Governments should not be held to account for 500 year old nonsense unless they are also held to account for thousand year old nonsense. And thousand year old nonsense doesn’t count unless we go after the two-thousand-year-old criminals of their age. So let’s be sure to have the celts blame the Angles and the Saxons, and they can blame the Italians and their so-called colonialist emperor Hadrian, and then we can work forward to the present day.

    Would-be immigrants have no business coming to any country on account of how that country did or did not behave hundreds of years before they were born. The painful failure to admit that over and over gives straight-up old school racists the thing they want most of all: someone else who gives them the appearance of looking credible.

    The way again the ONLY way to get around this clusterfuck of 20 years of mismanaged immigration rhetoric is to get back to the principles that citizenship means something, borders mean something, and it is for the citizens of a country to decide who is allowed to cross those borders, not any individual who feels entitled to show up. And the person least worthy of that privilege is the one who shows up and sneaks in on the basis of some theory of entitlement.

    People who believe in a humane, open border HAVE to make those points or were fucked. David Frum said all that needed to be said, i don’t know why I’m talking here I just remembered the quote:
    Yeah all of that is your crap and has nothing to do with me.

    Once again, these people were OBEYING THAT LAW YOU LOVE SO MUCH, and conflating them with migrant workers who by the way don't want to be citizens for the most part, is just a racist lie.
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    My point was that the land boundaries associated with each respective tribe were not determined as precisely as boundaries are today and were subject to change. The number and composition of tribes also changed over time. Perhaps importantly, the land was largely viewed as a part of life itself – not something to barter or sell. Hence, if land were “taken” from one tribe, that action would not necessarily result in an uprising from other tribes to correct the injustice. Conquering the Native Americans was accomplished incrementally.

    In most situations, immigration upon native land could only come about with permission from the tribe(s) whose ancestry had placed them upon that land. Otherwise the newcomers were subject to severe or lethal force of resistance. Rather than being asked to leave, you might simply be killed.

    As the Europeans established residence, Native Americans increasingly interacted with the newcomers in matters of commerce and culture. Eventually the European immigrants seized an overall advantage and the Native American societies were vanquished. Perhaps the fear of the disappearing white majority in the US today harkens back to the error of their rivals from those early days.
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Though Native American tribes sometimes worked together to achieve common goals, there was no central authority under which the tribes were governed. They essentially functioned as independent sovereign nations.

    It's completely mistaken to think that Natives had any of the same ideas concerning "nations" or property ownership you statement assumes. On the plains for example they were less "Nations" than members of ethnic groups who's bands shared ranging with other ethnic groups. There were no borders.

    The list in your doc are the tribes placed under the Trust agreement BY the united states, under which reservations were formalized, and in return for certain things, the U.S. legally took title to the rest of the U.S. Natives were legally made wards of the state and the Fed took over managing their "sovereign" lands. Which aren't very sovereign frankly.
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    My point was that the land boundaries associated with each respective tribe were not determined as precisely as boundaries are today and were subject to change. The number and composition of tribes also changed over time. Perhaps importantly, the land was largely viewed as a part of life itself – not something to barter or sell. Hence, if land were “taken” from one tribe, that action would not necessarily result in an uprising from other tribes to correct the injustice. Conquering the Native Americans was accomplished incrementally.

    In most situations, immigration upon native land could only come about with permission from the tribe(s) whose ancestry had placed them upon that land. Otherwise the newcomers were subject to severe or lethal force of resistance. Rather than being asked to leave, you might simply be killed.

    As the Europeans established residence, Native Americans increasingly interacted with the newcomers in matters of commerce and culture. Eventually the European immigrants seized an overall advantage and the Native American societies were vanquished. Perhaps the fear of the disappearing white majority in the US today harkens back to the error of their rivals from those early days.
    Yeah, that may have happened somewhat in the east, but in the middle and the west, it was much more like bloody genocide.
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by SeaCore View Post
    I didn't claim you did, I asked if that would be accurate and your answer is 'no' which is fine.

    I don't see that as necessary. A sub-discussion has started in this thread about borders and immigration which I think is related sufficiently to the topic to not be off-topic. Making a new thread isn't going to get rid of any dog whistles. Why in particular do you want a new one?
    Because they are separate discussions. The op misrepresented the President of Mexico who was talking about people fleeing violence and seeking asylum, into some kind of call for mass illegal immigration. Seeking asylum is not illegal immigration.

    If you want to talk about borders, borders exist because we say they do. They aren't features of nature and if you can't defend yours, you lose it.

    People wanting to pick strawberries and dig ditches aren't threatening your border. Your border is in no danger of going anywhere. People have been crossing it to pick strawberries and dig ditches all of your lifetime and there hasn't been an inch of movement of the border.

    If you really want to control who's coming and going you institute a guest worker program and let them cross legally BOTH WAYS, since I guarantee you that registering and crossing legally is preferable to the alternative.

    This is also different from immigration. I don't have a problem with immigration.

    WHO EXACTLY are we talking about when we say "illegal?" Migrant labor is one thing, Immigration is another, refugees seeking asylum another subject entirely.
    Last edited by TX-Beau; June 27th, 2018 at 03:38 PM.
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Anyone who wishes to cross [the borders of a modern country] need to do so only with the authority of the law, or they must face swift justice for ignoring the law.
    What happens when the government takes steps to thwart that portion of the law – which stipulates persons are legally entitled to seek asylum in a modern country?

    The storyline of our current predicament includes persons being turned away from legal ports of entry (allegedly due to a lack of adequate resources to process their claims) and therefore being denied the opportunity to participate in the “Affirmative Asylum Process.” When those persons (through desperation or cleverness) have subsequently entered the country through unofficial points of access, they are being charged with the crime of “improper entry by an alien” and subjected to removal proceedings. I presume the government is claiming that these persons who avoided legal ports of entry constitute a danger to the community of the United States and are therefore subject to expulsion. Realistically, they are still eligible to seek asylum through the “Defensive Asylum Process;” however, many are being presented to the court in group hearings and unknowingly consent to plea agreements that include a requirement for the defendant to forego claims for asylum.


    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Seeking asylum is not illegal immigration.
    “It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.”

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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    What happens when the government takes steps to thwart that portion of the law – which stipulates persons are legally entitled to seek asylum in a modern country?
    That’s the important question that will never get airtime as long as a bunch of ridiculous spew about borders being irrelevant or illegitimate are clogging up the bandwidth.

    The reason that asylum-seekers have a right to have their case heard is because a sovereign government, with borders and immigration laws it is entitled to enforce, signed a treaty recognising refugees had that right.

    If that government is not sovereign or legitimate, then those refugees can piss off, because apparently that treaty doesn’t count. If borders don’t count, then the government wasn’t entitled to sign a treaty recognising the rights of refugees at the border. And if the refugees don’t like it, they can whine to, I guess, the decendants of indigenous North Americans? Who should have done a better job keeping out these crazy “immigrants” who think borders and governments and treaties are real? I guess it’s their fault that we have people running all over the place pretending to be border guards.

    If we could get away from the Progressive Fantasy Bullshit Atlas of the World™ then we should have governments talking to other governments about upholding their treaty obligations, but that’s not very fashionable to mention these days.
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    The reason that asylum-seekers have a right to have their case heard is because a sovereign government, with borders and immigration laws it is entitled to enforce, signed a treaty recognising refugees had that right.
    So what does Mr. Frum mean when he suggests that “the Western world … is bound by laws and treaties written after World War II that have been rendered utterly irrelevant by a planet on the move?”

    He seems to think that liberalism has been discredited because it rejects nationhood – perhaps favoring globalism and mutual dependence, which in turn substitutes collaboration for individualism. The sheeple proceed en masse to reject divinity and then wail when they discover their subjugation. Redemption seems evermore elusive.



    Convention and Protocol relating to the Status of Refugees
    United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees
    “It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.”

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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    No it is NOT a "human right." We lock our doors for a reason. Same with immigration standards.

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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by novastar View Post
    No it is NOT a "human right." We lock our doors for a reason. Same with immigration standards.
    Are we going to discuss the racist history behind what we currently consider "immigration standards" or is that one of the sixteen katrillion manifestations of racism whose existence we aren't allowed to acknowledge?

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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    That’s the important question that will never get airtime as long as a bunch of ridiculous spew about borders being irrelevant or illegitimate are clogging up the bandwidth.

    The reason that asylum-seekers have a right to have their case heard is because a sovereign government, with borders and immigration laws it is entitled to enforce, signed a treaty recognising refugees had that right.

    If that government is not sovereign or legitimate, then those refugees can piss off, because apparently that treaty doesn’t count. If borders don’t count, then the government wasn’t entitled to sign a treaty recognising the rights of refugees at the border. And if the refugees don’t like it, they can whine to, I guess, the decendants of indigenous North Americans? Who should have done a better job keeping out these crazy “immigrants” who think borders and governments and treaties are real? I guess it’s their fault that we have people running all over the place pretending to be border guards.

    If we could get away from the Progressive Fantasy Bullshit Atlas of the World™ then we should have governments talking to other governments about upholding their treaty obligations, but that’s not very fashionable to mention these days.
    Oh come on. The border is in no danger from anyone. Period. If Trumpistan decides to tell refugees to piss off what are all of your arguments and treaties going to mean? Nothing, they aren't trying to enforce any law, they are trying to circumvent it in order to pander to his racist base. Are you going to call him "illegitimate" and poof expect things to change?

    So long as he can back it up he can do as he pleases, THAT is the basic fact of sovereignty. Law is not some kind of scripture most holy. It's the framework of your society and reflects every justice or injustice your society is willing to put up with. If the law says you can take someone's property and put them in a concentration camp because of their ethnicity guess what, it's legal. It's not just, it's not moral, but more than one "legitimate" government has done this.

    What's going on right now is an attack on the law in this country by people who want a new kind of law that makes bigotry and racism legal, and if anything is being ignored in this debacle it's that.

    I, as a Liberal Progressive must have missed the memo on how we are all whatever that is your are pushing.
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    Are we going to discuss the racist history behind what we currently consider "immigration standards" or is that one of the sixteen katrillion manifestations of racism whose existence we aren't allowed to acknowledge?
    Don't take the bait, [Text: Removed] that question is pointless and without meaning. Better ask what kind of people are we, and what do we mean by "human right." I bet you that people having the knee jerk reactions the OP was aiming for can't answer that question.
    Last edited by opinterph; June 28th, 2018 at 08:20 PM. Reason: removed interpersonal commentary
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by fabulouslyghetto View Post
    Are we going to discuss the racist history behind what we currently consider "immigration standards" or is that one of the sixteen katrillion manifestations of racism whose existence we aren't allowed to acknowledge?
    I don't see this as bait. I see it as an observation of our present situation. Here in NM I've now leared a new Tewa* word "hohookee." It means madman and I've heard it everyday. Just sayin'


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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Trump and his apologizers in here are playing a racist game of dehumanization and prevarication in order to inflame the bigoted myth of White Nationalism.
    White Nationalism exists. It is not a myth.


    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    … all borders and countries [and their laws] are maintained by force of arms.
    And in a representative democracy, the government draws the legitimacy of its force from the people.


    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Law is … the framework of your society and reflects every justice or injustice your society is willing to put up with. If the law says you can take someone's property and put them in a concentration camp because of their ethnicity guess what, it's legal.
    And in the US, laws are generally presumed to be legal unless and until their constitutionality is successfully challenged. The key point being that laws can be challenged.


    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Migrant labor is one thing, Immigration is another, refugees seeking asylum another subject entirely.
    They are all separate subjects; however, it is possible to be a member of more than one of those classes simultaneously.


    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    What's going on right now is an attack on the law in this country by people who want a new kind of law that makes bigotry and racism legal, and if anything is being ignored in this debacle it's that.
    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Here is the fundamental lie in the whole debate, people who apply for asylum are obeying the law. Our law, that's been in place since forever.
    US immigration law has changed over time. The first version limited naturalization to immigrants who were free White persons of “good moral character.” Numerous restrictions have characterized later versions – often with the express intent to discriminate. To the extent that contemporary efforts seek to formulate “a new kind of law that makes bigotry and racism legal,” it becomes a matter of necessity for the people, through their elected representatives, to understand and help guide such a proposal for change.

    The laws relating to asylum or refugees took on a new twist in 1968 when the US ratified an international treaty, which I’ve linked above. The implications of that treaty and the history of its implementation introduce a complexity to any discussion involving the matter of refugees to the US, but I think it is important to recognize that treaties are part of the supreme law of the land. (Article VI, Clause 2)
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    No it isn't.

    If America wants to abandon its values or change it's narrative to become a closed society it's no one else's business. It can choose to become a non migrant society.

    Whether that's wise or not is altogether another discussion.

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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    If I had a job that sent me to Europe or if a company called me, peace out USA.

    I'm all for Central/Southern Americans wanting to come here if people that live here can go elsewhere too.

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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by london12 View Post
    If I had a job that sent me to Europe or if a company called me, peace out USA.

    I'm all for Central/Southern Americans wanting to come here if people that live here can go elsewhere too.
    You can’t go to Canada without permission from the Canadian government, and any employer needs permission of our government to write you an offer. I think it’s totally fair that the US has similar restrictions. We want to know who is showing up, why, for how long, and we reserve the right to say no if we don’t like your reasons, or any criminal background, or we just have enough of a particular profession already.

    Pretty sure Europe has the same kind of system. That’s not at all unfair. I’m all from people from anywhere going anywhere else, as long as they get the proper permission from the country they feel like going to. Of course refugees have a right to enter and make a claim, but a refugee is not the same as an ordinary immigrant.
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    The reason that asylum-seekers have a right to have their case heard is because a sovereign government, with borders and immigration laws it is entitled to enforce, signed a treaty recognising refugees had that right.
    Could that treaty be part of the problem?



    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Of course refugees have a right to enter and make a claim, but a refugee is not the same as an ordinary immigrant.

    I am finding myself in a place I have visited before, though my journey here has followed a different path. It is an interesting convolution.

    I think immigration policy should be operated in the interests of the present citizens of the United States. Immigration that benefits them is welcome; immigration that does not, should not be welcome. This calculus is not a purely economic one. Loss of cultural cohesion is a harm. Fostering a more divisive and radical politics is a harm. The corrosion of legality is a harm. – David Frum

    Debating Immigration Policy at a Populist Moment (The Atlantic; March 9, 2017)
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    In its principles, the codification of refugee status in the Geneva accord looks as relevant today as it was when it was first drafted – and as it was in 1967, when a protocol extended its provisions globally. A refugee is defined as a person who is “outside his or her country of nationality or habitual residence; and has a well-founded fear of persecution because of his or her race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion”.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...isis-demand-eu

    Anyone showing up can claim this status, which leads to a hearing to decide if their claims are true. But, does coming from a poor, crime infested nation make one a refugee? Not according to the link above. If they show up and just want a better life it is understandable, but that desire doesn't get them in. Asking for asylum as a refugee does, at least according to the treaty.

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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Could that treaty be part of the problem?
    I don't think so. It seems eye-watering to imagine Germany letting in a million refugees. How is that possible? How can any country be expected to cope with that, if that is the price of living up to its treaty obligations?

    Germany is the seventh most visited country in the world,[1][2] with a total of 407.26 million overnights during 2012.[3] This number includes 68.83 million nights by foreign visitors
    -From Wikipedia.

    The scale isn't the problem. A million refugees times 365 nights per year is within Germany's capacity to handle mere tourists.

    The principle isn't the problem: I don't think people fleeing war or persecution owe it to us to die instead of inconveniencing us with their presence.

    What is the problem? That they bring different dining habits with them? That they take seriously our well-established freedom of religion and assume we mean it? That they are so pleased with the country they just left in abject terror they now want to re-establish it on our lands?

    One thing I don't hear often that bears remembering: a refugee is not a stateless person. They're a person in need of refuge. I don't see why we have to grant citizenship to refugees. They could do quite well on a five-year refugee visa or something like that, where there is no automatic expectation of citizenship at the end.

    Liberals don't like to talk about how many people Obama deported, or how many refugees his policies blocked from entry, or the nightmarish hoops legal immigrants had to jump through to gain admission, or differences in the way applicants from different countries were treated. The typical coastal-dwelling liberal or college student will acknowledge, if pressed, that they don't believe in open borders … but most are uncomfortable, unable, or unwilling to articulate just why.

    from your linked article.
    Is there a reason here?

    I am finding myself in a place I have visited before, though my journey here has followed a different path. It is an interesting convolution.
    I'm not sure I understand where you are visiting. But I am curious to know if you have a visa.
    Last edited by bankside; July 1st, 2018 at 10:54 AM.
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    just a reminder, these people are fleeing violent, murderous nations, they don't want your jobs they want safety, so can we chill the fuck out with the "You didn't dot an "i" on page 5 and there's an uncrossed "t" on page 487 of your asylum application"?

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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Holy shit. AMLO actually won.

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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikey3000 View Post
    Holy shit. AMLO actually won.
    Yes, really. Mexico may have a new lease on life. And we're going to get a new SCOUS. So the times are a chaining and it is exciting to be alive. I wouldn't want to try to sneak through Mexico now, or go before the SC anytime soon, or be actually black anytime. I hope Mexico has better luck than we did and I agree, Holy shit. [there is no sarcasm intended]
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    If we could get away from the Progressive Fantasy Bullshit Atlas of the World™ then we should have governments talking to other governments about upholding their treaty obligations, but that’s not very fashionable to mention these days.
    Irrespective of existing immigration laws and treaties (that may or may not solve problems relating to human migration): Do the citizens of a successful country owe an obligation to provide intervention to assist the citizens of the many less successful countries to help them overcome their challenges and hardships?
    “It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.”

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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Irrespective of existing immigration laws and treaties (that may or may not solve problems relating to human migration): Do the citizens of a successful country owe an obligation to provide intervention to assist the citizens of the many less successful countries to help them overcome their challenges and hardships?
    This is both a general principle of the United Nations, and a sound economic principle. We are all in this together, and in the long term there is no way to prosper or be secure while other places endure challenges and hardships of any significant scale. It does not oblige any country to let in whomever may be pleased to arrive, because other interventions may be more effective and more sustainable for most of those hardships. The exception being "death and ruthless persecution" where the specific intervention we need to offer is conferring refugee protection. As far as being successful countries, we in the G7 have profited mostly from having the rule of law, a relatively low rate of corruption, and multilateral cooperation. The recent G7 meeting shows an example of intervention without a migration component, just in ensuring certain countries who can most benefit are at the table.
    Policing tone and getting shit done!

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    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Progressive Fantasy Bullshit Atlas of the World™
    No TESS records were found to match the criteria of your query.

    Okay, let’s assume your explanation of principle is exactly correct.

    Give me an elevator presentation better explaining this “Atlas” thing. How exactly do we indict the Progressives?
    “It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.”

    – Henry David Thoreau

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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    There's this idea floating around that borders don't matter, or they are illegitimate, or they are "colonial" when they use that as a synonym for "bad."

    Here's probably one of its clearest expressions:

    https://nacla.org/blog/2016/05/24/migration-reparations

    The idea of a borderless world for migrants means borders don't matter. But if you can't tell someone to stay out, you also can't invite someone in. That puts refugees in peril. There is no point in inviting Syrian refugees to settle, at least temporarily, in the free world if, as a matter of law, Bashar al Assad is allowed to follow them here. Borders are a useful separation for both the citizenry and the prospective refugee. To say otherwise is not a viewpoint with any merit. To the extent that progressives would like to skip over the relevance of borders, their atlas is nonsense, ahistoric, and also of no service to refugees.
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    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Is it a human right to immigrate to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    There's this idea floating around that borders don't matter, or they are illegitimate, or they are "colonial" when they use that as a synonym for "bad."

    Here's probably one of its clearest expressions:

    https://nacla.org/blog/2016/05/24/migration-reparations

    The idea of a borderless world for migrants means borders don't matter. But if you can't tell someone to stay out, you also can't invite someone in. That puts refugees in peril. There is no point in inviting Syrian refugees to settle, at least temporarily, in the free world if, as a matter of law, Bashar al Assad is allowed to follow them here. Borders are a useful separation for both the citizenry and the prospective refugee. To say otherwise is not a viewpoint with any merit. To the extent that progressives would like to skip over the relevance of borders, their atlas is nonsense, ahistoric, and also of no service to refugees.
    You know what, that's just deceit. I can find plenty of people saying radical things, that doesn't mean that you get to paint Progressives with that same kind of brush. Perhaps I should scour the net and find all the Canadian racists and come in here and call you a bigot.

    COME ON. THERE IS NO BORDER CRISIS! There are no Syrians in Mexico.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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