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    So we're not Friends Any More

    With the Trump regime imposing tariffs on Canadian steel and aluminum imports because of 'security'...Canada has provided a pretty dead-on response as a staunch, historical ally.

    Trudeau: Trump tariffs 'are an affront' to Canadian soldiers who 'fought and died' alongside Americans

    Noting that Canada purchases more U.S. steel than any other nation, Trudeau lambasted the Trump administration for initiating the tariffs under the guise of confronting a threat to national security.
    "Canada is a secure supplier of aluminum and steel to the U.S. defense industry, putting aluminum in American planes and steel in American tanks," Trudeau said. "That Canada could be considered a national security threat to the United States is inconceivable."
    We've all been expecting it.

    Even though the steel and aluminum industry in Canada is pretty much now US owned....I guess that Trump believes that is a foreign threat to the existential security of America.

    I also am 100% certain that he has never had any intention of negotiating NAFTA in good faith.

    Trade wars are going to send us all into another depression...and impose higher costs on American consumers as well as killing markets for US goods in Canada. I imagine that since Canada is a partner in free trade agreements with the EU and Asia through the TPP, our focus will now shift to trade with those blocs.

    All of this to play to his base.

    Hopefully the consumers who will now be paying this tax on goods will realized they are being hoodwinked...that the reduction in federal tax will be more than swallowed up by the new tariffs.

    http://thehill.com/policy/internatio...who-fought-and

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    He truly has no idea, and this latest move is going to backfire on him big time.
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Yeah his Buy American campaign at home is really a Buy Nothing American, Not One Damn Thing here in Canada and everywhere else in the planet. I’m looking at everything now and it won’t be from the US.

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Trudeau is matching the tariffs dollar-for-dollar on steel and aluminum and putting other tariffs in place for huge exports such as maple syrup, of which the US imports 65%.
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    That sense of betrayal, that's exactly why I am no longer friends with anyone who helped elect him.
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by gsdx View Post
    Trudeau is matching the tariffs dollar-for-dollar on steel and aluminum and putting other tariffs in place for huge exports such as maple syrup, of which the US imports 65%.
    The complete and utter stupidity of this whole situation - needless situation - is so, frustrating. I have no idea how to make the idiots who support him listen. Even when all my cousins and siblings are bankrupt and have lost their farms, the ones who voted for him will still be defending this asshole.
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    ^ I wonder if they know about all the dozens and dozens of businesses he drove into the ground? He's running the country as if it were a business.

    I can't wait for the day when he is told, "You're fired!"
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    JUB Addict bankside's Avatar
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    The complete and utter stupidity of this whole situation - needless situation - is so, frustrating. I have no idea how to make the idiots who support him listen. Even when all my cousins and siblings are bankrupt and have lost their farms, the ones who voted for him will still be defending this asshole.
    If it will help your cousins to figure it out, our government and Europe have done lots of homework to hit the industries as hard as possible from Trump-supporting states and from the districts of key Trump toadies in congress. We're trying to be focussed. It's tricky, but we're targeting the malignant bits as narrowly as possible, to destroy the tumour but leave the rest in tact.

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    JUB Addict bankside's Avatar
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    BTW, now is the time for Canada to build a pipeline the other way too, whether Quebec likes it or not, so that we can sell NG and oil to Merkel, who, if she has half a brain, would rather buy it from us than from Putin. And I know I'd rather sell it to her than to Trump. We JUST worked out free trade with Europe. Let's do more of it. And frankly we need to be ready to do that only if we have to.
    Last edited by bankside; May 31st, 2018 at 06:44 PM.

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    If it will help your cousins to figure it out, our government and Europe have done lots of homework to hit the industries as hard as possible from Trump-supporting states and from the districts of key Trump toadies in congress. We're trying to be focussed. It's tricky, but we're targeting the malignant bits as narrowly as possible, to destroy the tumour but leave the rest in tact.
    I certainly hope that never occurs to them, since they will just say you bankrupted them and it's your fault. Idiots. The problem of course is that he's a nasty racist, a bunch of them are nasty racists, and as long as he gives them permission to be disgusting bigots they will forgive him anything.

    If we get into a trade war, their produce has been specifically mentioned, they all grow things on the tariff list - I don't think they all really believed it would happen. Well part of me wants to tell them you made your damn bed... But this is going to hurt all of us, including the ones who aren't bigots and idiots. It's going to hurt all of us everywhere, because the pitiful orange child-man in the White House is having a tantrum.

    Impeachment can't come soon enough, we will all be living with the damage he's already done for the rest of this generation. How does one demand justice for that? It literally sickens me to see him toadying up to that murderer in North Korea and pissing on our natural allies and fast friends. I... there are no words.
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    BTW, now is the time for Canada to build a pipeline the other way too, whether Quebec likes it or not, so that we can sell NG and oil to Merkel, who, if she has half a brain, would rather buy it from us than from Putin. And I know I'd rather sell it to her than to Trump. We JUST worked out free trade with Europe. Let's do more of it. And frankly we need to be ready to do that only if we have to.
    Go for it, save yourselves if you can, one can only hope that when this is all over, we haven't lost so much goodwill no one will be willing to help us pick up the pieces.
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    If we get into a trade war
    With Trump reneging on yet another 'promise', and considering Canada's swift and harsh reaction to the flip-flop, I suspect we're already in one. You can't betray your neighbours and allies and treat them like shit and expect to come out of it smelling like Febreze.
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by gsdx View Post
    With Trump reneging on yet another 'promise', and considering Canada's swift and harsh reaction to the flip-flop, I suspect we're already in one. You can't betray your neighbours and allies and treat them like shit and expect to come out of it smelling like Febreze.
    He truly believes he can. His understanding of nuance is tweeting a word in all caps.
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  14. #14
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by gsdx View Post
    He truly has no idea, and this latest move is going to backfire on him big time.
    Let the backfire be quick, please. People need to be motivated to vote as many of his goons out of office in November, as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Even when all my cousins and siblings are bankrupt and have lost their farms, the ones who voted for him will still be defending this asshole.
    It's all Obama's fault. And, BENGHAZI!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by gsdx View Post
    I can't wait for the day when he is told, "You're fired!"
    Unless his Cabinet invokes the 25th Amendment, it has to wait until 2020 for "the People" to fire him. Or, as another doubtful alternative, see below...

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Impeachment can't come soon enough,
    Oh, the impeachment part is pretty easy. It actually happened during most of our (earlier) lifetimes, in 1998 I think it was.

    The CONVICTION part is the rub. There will NEVER be enough Republican votes to muster the required 67 votes to convict him (and, thus, remove him from office). Removal is left only to the devices mentioned in my third response above.
    "Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking." -The Scarecrow, WIZARD OF OZ, 1939
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    JUB Addict bankside's Avatar
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Here’s how Canada has profited from Trump’s stupidity at the expense of Americans so far:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cana...riff-1.4686655

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Here’s how Canada has profited from Trump’s stupidity at the expense of Americans so far:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cana...riff-1.4686655
    The bitch of it is that in the end we will all be hurt.
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    ^ Reading that article clearly shows that Trump is not the consummate businessman he professes to be. It's easy to see why he drove so many of his businesses into the ground.
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    Uncharted Thad1527's Avatar
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    ^Those of us with any connection to Atlantic City would never use "Trump" and "successful businessman" in the same sentence.

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    JUB Addict bankside's Avatar
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    The bitch of it is that in the end we will all be hurt.
    Yup. On the other hand I just googled “what does China import from the United States?” and I think between us and Europe we could probably supply what they need and then not really care whether we sell a dime to the US. I’m hoping for us to invest in our embassies in Berlin, Brussels and Beijing right now.

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    I love it.

    The G7 Finance Ministers meeting in Whistler BC is being called G6 plus one.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g...-idUSKCN1IX5EI

    Hopefully they are all giving the slimy Mnuchin an earful.

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post

    Hopefully they are all giving the slimy Mnuchin an earful.
    “Our entire objective is to bring the American authorities back to good sense and reason,” LeMaire said,
    No, I think that’s the wrong approach. This Mnuchin person should leave there st the end saying “I was ignored the entire time. Not one issue we wanted was put on the agenda. By Day 2 they had agreed to deepen trade ties between them and they made it optional to join, so we had no leverage. We couldn’t block anything, it was 6 against 1. When they brought out Zhong Shan as a special guest on Day 3 I thought we should leave because we were obviously just going down in flames but I couldn’t get an answer out of the Whitehouse so I had to sit there while Europe and China discussed how to purchase Canada’s entire aluminum production and China and Canada discussed how to buy all of Europe’s cars. He was too busy tweeting about Roseanne to take my call, and we’re fucked. We’ll be in a recession in weeks, if not days, and I don’t even know what we could do about it. We could save Detroit if we can start selling cars to Africa but they would need the money from us to do it and anyway China has spend the last ten years building or bribing their way across the continent and they’re in on this. Every issue, we’re surrounded, every sector they’ve done their homework. The European trade commissioner wouldn’t even shake my hand. Literally walked past me at the photo op. Call McConnell. I need to know how his Plan B project is coming along. The clown is certainly going to fire me once Fox actually figures any of this out, so we’ve got about a week left to shred paper and make appointments. Oh, and call my broker, I want nine tenths of my portfolio offshore by tomorrow morning.”

    We might not make all that progress in a short little conference. But that’s the idea we should have. We can’t bring some official of the US administration back to reason because they understand reason, they’re not the problem, and reason is not theirs to deal. It’s like asking Napoleon on the psych ward to rethink his strategy for the Battle of Leipzig. Nah.

    The rest of us need to figure out how to make the US detachable from the world economy with the least disruption to ourselves, and we have a fuck of a lot of tools and capacity to go a looooong way in that direction and limit the damages. “Pretend we can have a rational conversation” is not a tool that gives us anything.

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Trump is not capable of foreseeing retaliation in response to his actions. He didn't foresee the losses of the millions of dollars nor the thousands of jobs. All he could imagine was the money he would make for the United States that he could brag about.
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by gsdx View Post
    He truly has no idea, and this latest move is going to backfire on him big time.
    Find a way to pay him. He'll make an exception.

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Surely there must be some urinating hookers somewhere in Europe.
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    No, I think that’s the wrong approach. This Mnuchin person should leave there st the end saying “I was ignored the entire time. Not one issue we wanted was put on the agenda. By Day 2 they had agreed to deepen trade ties between them and they made it optional to join, so we had no leverage. We couldn’t block anything, it was 6 against 1. When they brought out Zhong Shan as a special guest on Day 3 I thought we should leave because we were obviously just going down in flames but I couldn’t get an answer out of the Whitehouse so I had to sit there while Europe and China discussed how to purchase Canada’s entire aluminum production and China and Canada discussed how to buy all of Europe’s cars. He was too busy tweeting about Roseanne to take my call, and we’re fucked. We’ll be in a recession in weeks, if not days, and I don’t even know what we could do about it. We could save Detroit if we can start selling cars to Africa but they would need the money from us to do it and anyway China has spend the last ten years building or bribing their way across the continent and they’re in on this. Every issue, we’re surrounded, every sector they’ve done their homework. The European trade commissioner wouldn’t even shake my hand. Literally walked past me at the photo op. Call McConnell. I need to know how his Plan B project is coming along. The clown is certainly going to fire me once Fox actually figures any of this out, so we’ve got about a week left to shred paper and make appointments. Oh, and call my broker, I want nine tenths of my portfolio offshore by tomorrow morning.”

    We might not make all that progress in a short little conference. But that’s the idea we should have. We can’t bring some official of the US administration back to reason because they understand reason, they’re not the problem, and reason is not theirs to deal. It’s like asking Napoleon on the psych ward to rethink his strategy for the Battle of Leipzig. Nah.

    The rest of us need to figure out how to make the US detachable from the world economy with the least disruption to ourselves, and we have a fuck of a lot of tools and capacity to go a looooong way in that direction and limit the damages. “Pretend we can have a rational conversation” is not a tool that gives us anything.
    Trying to make Trump feel the pain is as pointless as trying to make him see reason. The ONLY thing that matters to him is cheering Nazis at his Nuremberg rallies. He doesn't care how much damage he's doing, he doesn't care who suffers, he doesn't care if we all go down together. So long as his racists cheer his slogans, he's going to cater to them.

    The strategy you are pursuing, putting as much pressure as possible on Republicans in Congress is the only way to mitigate this, and Trump is insane, the real treason in the leaders of Congress who will not do their duty and restrain him. McConnell and that bitch Ryan could take his ability to tariff anyone right away from him, but will they?
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    I'll try to find a link to an article on WNYC about Canadian strategy. They will attempt import to and not export from specific voting districts in the United States. That would make them the equivalent of soccer midfielders, playing offense and defense, depending on who has the ball.
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    So long as his racists cheer his slogans, he's going to cater to them.
    That's pretty-much what he's doing for his questionable pardons and battles for people like Roseanne. No matter what they do, as long as they support him, he's got their back.
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    I think the WNYC story is based on this article http://www23.statcan.gc.ca/imdb/p2SV...rvey&SDDS=5142 It doesn't specifically mention US targets, but because it's broadcasted, I think the affected will make trump rethink.
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    I would like to sit back and see where it goes. Nobody has had the balls in recent history to try it to see if there may be some better deals negotiated from this move. All sides will eventually sit down and this will end ... and the negotiation will begin to rectify it. So again, I will take a let's just wait and see approach. Stock market will go up and down based on your holdings, but curious to see it ridden out to see what the end result is.
    Telling it like it is.

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    It was tried before. In the 1930's. It lengthened and deepened the Depression.

    When trade becomes a zero sum game, everyone loses.

    And labelling your 150 year old ally a threat to national security never is a good move.

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More



    I would point out that this map gives Canada a fair amount of latitude to be selective in what we target in the states that support Trump.

    And after a resurgence of Canadian overnight tourist visits to the US, it is expected that this trade war will have all of us either looking at spending tourist dollars at home or abroad.

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    It was tried before. In the 1930's. It lengthened and deepened the Depression.

    When trade becomes a zero sum game, everyone loses.

    And labelling your 150 year old ally a threat to national security never is a good move.
    Indeed. I found this article, and they had to dig deep to find the excuse:

    “Economic security is military security,” Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross has said. But this administration’s push to blur, or even erase, the line between our economic and national security interests is dangerous — both for the United States and for the world.

    First, the Trump administration is making overly broad interpretations of national security and then insisting these claims cannot be challenged. These actions undermine international law and threaten the rules-based global trading system.

    The law being invoked to justify these new tariffs was crafted during the Cold War. It gives the president broad power to ensure that the United States is not overly dependent on imports for critical defense needs, especially imports from countries we don’t trust to supply us in times of war.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/01/o...y-tariffs.html
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    It was tried before. In the 1930's. It lengthened and deepened the Depression.
    Let's see it in Modern times.

    If you have a President who feels his country has been deeply taken advantage of by other countries and is in his mind, trying to do something to rectify the situation or at least improve the conditions, would you fault the person for trying?

    Let's say if Canada was in that situation and Prime Minister Trudeau felt the U.S. was grossly taking advantage of Canadians in trade, how would you feel (ally or not)?
    Telling it like it is.

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    Let's see it in Modern times.

    If you have a President who feels his country has been deeply taken advantage of by other countries and is in his mind, trying to do something to rectify the situation or at least improve the conditions, would you fault the person for trying?
    Yes, especially when the person trying it doesn't understand it and can't be bothered to calculate the ramifications of his actions or heed recommendations. How do you suppose he will explain the loss of the thousands and thousands of jobs his actions have caused? Who will he blame?
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    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    If you have a President who feels … in his mind
    From my perspective, determining fault “for trying” would depend on his mind.
    “It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.”

    – Henry David Thoreau

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    Let's see it in Modern times.

    If you have a President who feels his country has been deeply taken advantage of by other countries and is in his mind, trying to do something to rectify the situation or at least improve the conditions, would you fault the person for trying?

    Let's say if Canada was in that situation and Prime Minister Trudeau felt the U.S. was grossly taking advantage of Canadians in trade, how would you feel (ally or not)?
    If you have a President who is a compulsive liar and thinks everything is about him, why is anyone willing to drink his Kool-Aid and be his bitch? Well we all know what this is about, yet more pretending to his racist base that all their problems will be solved by hating someone else.

    Guess what, until you are willing to work for shit and starve while working 80 hours a week, you aren't getting your jobs back.
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    From my perspective, determining fault “for trying” would depend on his mind.
    Trying is a highly contextual thing, certainly I can "try" to solve the race problem by murdering all the black and brown people, will I get a pass from some people for trying that?

    The only reason for Trump doing what he's doing is bullshit White Nationalism and the lie he told his base that a miracle would occur and somehow the modern era would vanish if they just punish the rest of the world.
    Last edited by TX-Beau; June 5th, 2018 at 07:10 PM.
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    Let's see it in Modern times.

    If you have a President who feels his country has been deeply taken advantage of by other countries and is in his mind, trying to do something to rectify the situation or at least improve the conditions, would you fault the person for trying?

    Let's say if Canada was in that situation and Prime Minister Trudeau felt the U.S. was grossly taking advantage of Canadians in trade, how would you feel (ally or not)?
    An interesting parallel. I now feel in my mind that the Steak Salesman in Chief really wants to exploit the economy of my country and deeply take advantage of it. The thing is any data I’ve seen seems to show that the Steak Salesman just lies about the basic facts of our trading relationship, like how much we buy of each other’s goods and services. The feeling this produces is “indignation.” And also “hostility.” And also “contempt.” It makes me willing to endure a fair bit of economic hardship if it means we can stop the Steak Salesman from getting anything he wants at all, because his feelings aren’t really anchored in anything other than his own bluster. If people “feel” that he’s onto something, that doesn’t really matter to me if the facts aren’t there. I also feel like if we were to let him get away with it, it would set a very bad precedent for caving in to a common brainless bully, and that would seriously undermine the long term economic prospects for my country and for my economic security.

    So not only do i feel like it would be fun to tell him to shove his lies up his ass and go fuck himself, I also feel it’s in my rational economic interest. And I also feel it’s fundamentally fair.

    So with all that on the table, I will gladly work with all the state governments who now painfully realize that trade is a profitable two-way Street, and any remaining parts of the federal US government that are still functional, to contain this clown and prevent him from getting his way at all. I want to salvage the current mutually profitable trade deal. But now I feel like leaving his credibility in tact in any quarters presents an ongoing risk. So the deal I want now has to keep trade going, but also humiliate and isolate the Steak Salesman. Those are my terms, and if I can’t get them or those remaining parts of the US system can’t deliver them, I’m very much interested in doing whatever else we can with Europe or China to carry on without the US as any kind of trading partner. Yes we have one of the most complex, mutually profitable, economically interdependent trading relationships ever seen in history. But having to explain the obvious to an idiotic blowhard Steak Salesman is not appealing. And things change faster than they used to. The last 20 years of Chinese development reminds me just how fast.
    Last edited by bankside; June 5th, 2018 at 09:52 PM.

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by gsdx View Post
    How do you suppose he will explain the loss of the thousands and thousands of jobs his actions have caused? Who will he blame?
    This is question 17 on the multiple choice test.
    a. Hillary Clinton
    b. Barack Obama
    c. The Environmental Protection Agency
    d. National Public Radio
    e. All of the above
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    If you have a President who feels his country has been deeply taken advantage of by other countries and is in his mind, trying to do something to rectify the situation or at least improve the conditions, would you fault the person for trying?
    Absolutely.

    What a leader "feels" is important in judgments of conscience, ethics and morality.

    But decisions relating to multi-billion dollar trade policies should be firmly based in facts, educated knowledge and historical precedent. Not feelings.

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    This is question 17 on the multiple choice test.
    a. Hillary Clinton
    b. Barack Obama
    c. The Environmental Protection Agency
    d. National Public Radio
    e. All of the above
    While the answer, I'm thinking, is e. Question 18 is what will distract everyone while he and his family line their pockets?
    a. Hillary's emails
    b. fake news
    c. executive orders
    d. alternative facts
    e. cabinet appointments
    f. personal disclosure of classified intell to Russians
    g. no collusion
    h. spygate
    I. Completely missing the point of the NFL protest
    j. Stormy Daniels
    k. everything about healthcare
    l. everything about the budget deficit
    m. gold start disrespect
    n. immigration
    o. claiming to be a conservative
    p. claiming to be a Christian
    q. the alphabet only has 26 letters so let's just say all the above and counting
    See how beautiful we are and blessed, too. Together we are excellent.

  42. #42
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    Let's see it in Modern times.

    If you have a President who feels his country has been deeply taken advantage of by other countries and is in his mind, trying to do something to rectify the situation or at least improve the conditions, would you fault the person for trying?

    Let's say if Canada was in that situation and Prime Minister Trudeau felt the U.S. was grossly taking advantage of Canadians in trade, how would you feel (ally or not)?
    So it would be fun to see what happens because this perpetually failed businessman 'feels' his country has been taken advantage of, even when the US has an overall favourable trade surplus with Canada?

    You apparently also don't understand that CAFTA and then NAFTA was created to ensure fair and equitable trade without punitive tariffs that choke economies.

    The fact is, Trump believes it is a zero sum game....that the US must win and every other country must lose. Maybe you feel that way too. Maybe a majority of Americans now feel that way too. Perpetually aggrieved and angry...not for any real reason...but because you feel that way.

    All tariffs are is a huge tax on consumers. And not the wealthy. But the middle class and poor.

    Your lack of actual knowledge and insight on trade and economics belies your supposed 'progressive' stance.

    Perhaps the sleaziest part of all of this is the US using the pretext of national security to fuck over consumers in order to heavily subsidize the resurrection of a few thousand jobs. It is telling that without any legitimate means to enact punitive tariffs, that TrumpCo. had to scrape down to the bottom to find a way to do it. And along the way, they have wiped out decades of goodwill and friendship between America and other nations. Goodwill and friendship that is going to be impossible to ever fully recover.
    Last edited by rareboy; June 6th, 2018 at 03:19 AM.

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Mexico is hitting where it hurts.

    The 20% tariffs on Pork products are designed to wound the pork producers in Iowa and midwest. Estimates last week were that the US pissing on Mexico had already cost the industry about 560 million dollars as Mexico shifted away from buying American product.

    So Americans had better get used to eating a lot more pork...if that is even possible.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/business/eco...m_npd_nn_fb_ma

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    ^ Interesting article, but I suspect it will be branded 'fake news'.

    From the article:

    "Trump's negotiation style is different than what we are used to as livestock producers," Boyer told NBC News. "One positive thing is we're actually talking about trade," he said, adding that while he may not agree with how it has been done, "at least someone is doing something about it."
    What Trump is doing isn't exactly what I would call 'negotiating'.
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    I noted this guy's opinion.

    He appears clueless about the fact that his livelihood and industry could easily be destroyed because of a trade war.

    The purpose of NAFTA and other trade agreements is so that you don't HAVE to be talking about trade and fighting trade wars all the time. Because it has been realized that they are self-destructive and drive down productivity.

    I would note for him and for Trump that when Trump pulls out of NAFTA, Canada and the US default to CAFTA, the trade agreement originally negotiated under Reagan and Mulroney.

    But Mexico is now such an integrated part of the North American economy that Trump's wet dream of negotiating separate bi-lateral agreements is a non-starter.

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by gsdx View Post
    What Trump is doing isn't exactly what I would call 'negotiating'.
    It's interesting to observe. There's a school of thought that says Trump shocks people to force them to the negotiation table.

    But we simply haven't seen this in practice. In every negotiation Trump has been a part of as President, he starts with shock and horror, creates a responsive storm, then capitulates and loses ground. Look at North Korea. Kim Jong Un is walking all over him.

    He is a really really bad negotiator.

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    So I can say without a shadow of doubt, that America has the stupidest person on earth for President. Any question about this was erased today. Seriously. America has a moron for President. Like one of the most ignorant and unbelievably stupid people in my experience.



    And this guy wants to negotiate with Canada?

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    And this guy wants to negotiate with Canada?
    Seriously, he should have asked Frederick Douglass first!
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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    That sense of betrayal, that's exactly why I am no longer friends with anyone who helped elect him.
    and we've long abandoned asking "What's he going to do next?" or "How can it get any worse?"

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    Re: So we're not Friends Any More

    I've been reading a few articles on this and commenters are once again amazed at his complete lack of historical knowledge. Canada was over a half-century away from becoming a country when the US attacked York (present-day Toronto) and Britain retaliated by setting the White House ablaze in 1814.
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