Arkansas Judge Will Rule re: Marriage Case

[JackinSea]

Just a friendly reminder: AK = Alaska and AR = Arkansas.

[scream4ever]

Video from the Saturday confrontation:

http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog...day-night-line

I'm so glad that the day was able to end on a happy note for the couples waiting in line.

[Kulindahr]

Faulkner County has announced it will not issue licenses citing the clerk's belief that circuit judges cannot enjoin the whole state, which is not true.

I think that varies between states. As I understand the system in Oregon, the clerk would be correct; a circuit ruling is binding only on that circuit. An appeals court ruling, however, I think is binding on the whole state regardless of which district it came from. The basic difference is that circuit courts are trial courts, not appellate courts (though certain cases from municipal and justice courts can be appealed to a circuit, IIRC).

[Alnitak]

I think that varies between states. As I understand the system in Oregon, the clerk would be correct; a circuit ruling is binding only on that circuit. An appeals court ruling, however, I think is binding on the whole state regardless of which district it came from. The basic difference is that circuit courts are trial courts, not appellate courts (though certain cases from municipal and justice courts can be appealed to a circuit, IIRC).

Several counties were sued in Pulaski County Circuit Court, which has general jurisdiction. If circuit courts in Oregon have diversity jurisdiction, then they can enjoin a whole state too, or a combination of the counties. That is usually the case. Remember Walker's ruling applied to the whole state of California because he enjoined state officers, even though his jurisdiction was in northern California. Jacobson's ruling applied throughout New Jersey, and so on. District courts are the courts of limited jurisdiction in Arkansas. Because the counties are all similarly situated, i.e. refusing licenses, and because the State of Arkansas and her officers are named defendants, Piazza's ruling applies statewide.

[Alnitak]

Video from the Saturday confrontation:

http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog...day-night-line

I'm so glad that the day was able to end on a happy note for the couples waiting in line.

Most counties are dragging their feet hoping for a quick stay from the AR Supreme Court. I am little surprised.

The respondents have until noon tomorrow to reply to the state's request for a stay. There is no indication what the court will do.

Because of the dynamic situation, and variety of sources both reliable and unreliable, it is impossible to give an accurate run down on the counties currently issuing licenses. However, Little Rock is definitely issuing them.

[scream4ever]

Washington County is issuing licenses as well. Carroll County stopped earlier today due to a threat from an attorney (seriously?!). I've heard the Supreme Court in AR typically releases decisions on Thursday, but they may make an exception with this issue.

[Alnitak]

ThinkProgress reports on Twitter that the current issuing counties are Pulaski, Washington, Marion, and Saline, so that's four out of 75. Pathetic.

[scream4ever]

ThinkProgress reports on Twitter that the current issuing counties are Pulaski, Washington, Marion, and Saline, so that's four out of 75. Pathetic.

It's still better then it being just 2 as I initially thought.

Apparently in Carroll County the attorney in question claimed that a law banning same-sex marriage was still on the books, which is baseless since both the statute and constitutional bans were shot down.

In Little Rock there was only 1 protester demonstrating today (amazing how quickly things have changed since there were tons in 2004 and even 2008 with California), and a reporter was apparently removed from a courthouse for simply questioning why they weren't issuing licenses. It's truly remnicent of the civil rights struggle now!

[Kulindahr]

Several counties were sued in Pulaski County Circuit Court, which has general jurisdiction. If circuit courts in Oregon have diversity jurisdiction, then they can enjoin a whole state too, or a combination of the counties. That is usually the case. Remember Walker's ruling applied to the whole state of California because he enjoined state officers, even though his jurisdiction was in northern California. Jacobson's ruling applied throughout New Jersey, and so on. District courts are the courts of limited jurisdiction in Arkansas. Because the counties are all similarly situated, i.e. refusing licenses, and because the State of Arkansas and her officers are named defendants, Piazza's ruling applies statewide.

Ah -- the last especially makes sense.

[Kulindahr]

Most counties are dragging their feet hoping for a quick stay from the AR Supreme Court. I am little surprised.

The respondents have until noon tomorrow to reply to the state's request for a stay. There is no indication what the court will do.

Because of the dynamic situation, and variety of sources both reliable and unreliable, it is impossible to give an accurate run down on the counties currently issuing licenses. However, Little Rock is definitely issuing them.

By dragging their feet, aren't they just providing fuel for yet another suit? That seems tactically, or even strategically, foolish.

[Kulindahr]

In Little Rock ... a reporter was apparently removed from a courthouse for simply questioning why they weren't issuing licenses. It's truly remnicent of the civil rights struggle now!

There's an invitation to a first amendment suit!

[Alnitak]

Apparently in Carroll County the attorney in question claimed that a law banning same-sex marriage was still on the books, which is baseless since both the statute and constitutional bans were shot down.

It's an unrelated law that just fines clerks for issuing illegal licenses. Yes it's totally bogus.

[JackinSea]

They're stalling for a stay.

[Kulindahr]

They're stalling for a stay.

They should be held in contempt of court, fined $1k and thrown in jail for three days.

[Alnitak]

They're stalling for a stay.

Yeah, the same thing happened in Utah, and when recalcitrant counties didn't get a stay they caved. I'm crossing my fingers.

[Alnitak]

Great digest on the latest analyses: http://purpleunions.com/blog/2014/05...medium=twitter





Also, the state government is so far honoring the marriages.

Ark. health department allows same-sex couples on birth certificates

[Alnitak]

Marion and Saline have stopped issuing licenses, saying they will wait for word from the AR Supreme Court.

That leaves Pulaski and Washington, the first and third largest counties in the state.

http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2014/05/t...e-sex-couples/

[Kulindahr]

^
The judge should hit them with contempt of court.

[Alnitak]

The latest count on licenses is 400 even.

Pulaski County has issued 243 licenses, Washington County 122, Carroll 28, Saline six and Marion one.

Lawyers: Don't suspend gay marriage ruling

We should know by Thursday what the AR Supreme Court intends to do.

^
The judge should hit them with contempt of court.

They won't get away with it so easily if the AR Supreme Court does not issue a stay.

[rareboy]

The arc of history still bends toward justice.

The good news is that I don't think there will ever be another California clusterfuck.

It is now only about time.

[Alnitak]

Arkansas Supreme Court

Request for a stay is DENIED

The Arkansas Supreme Court has rejected the state attorney general’s request for a stay of a judge’s ruling that overturned Arkansas’ constitutional ban on gay marriage.

Arkansas Supreme Court won’t stay same-sex marriage ruling

Read the opinion HERE: http://ww2.lgbtqnation.com/assets/20...uling-0514.pdf

The opinion is based on technicalities, but I'll take it. That means marriages will continue for at least a few days.

[T-Rexx]

Pulaski County (one of the only two counties in AR still issuing gay marriage licenses) has announced that it will stop doing so, in the wake of the Arkansas Supreme Court's action.

The only other county in Arkansas still issuing licenses, Washington County, has not yet announced what it will do.

Looks like we're going to have to wait on SCOTUS. Very frustrating.




http://bigstory.ap.org/article/arkan...y-gay-marriage

[Kulindahr]

So it's legal to issue marriage licenses, but clerks can be fined for doing so to same-sex couples....




Even the cat is embarrassed.

[Alnitak]

Pulaski County (one of the only two counties in AR still issuing gay marriage licenses) has announced that it will stop doing so, in the wake of the Arkansas Supreme Court's action.

The only other county in Arkansas still issuing licenses, Washington County, has not yet announced what it will do.

Looks like we're going to have to wait on SCOTUS. Very frustrating.




http://bigstory.ap.org/article/arkan...y-gay-marriage

If the Arkansas Supreme Court maintains the part of Piazza's ruling that cites Arkansas' Declaration of Rights, then the ruling will not be appealable to the US Supreme Court.

[Alnitak]

So it's legal to issue marriage licenses, but clerks can be fined for doing so to same-sex couples....

Even the cat is embarrassed.

It's a minor technicality that would be ignored in a liberal state.

Piazza no doubt will issue an amended order and injunction soon.

The Arkansas saga will go on for a while...

[Kulindahr]

If the Arkansas Supreme Court maintains the part of Piazza's ruling that cites Arkansas' Declaration of Rights, then the ruling will not be appealable to the US Supreme Court.

I was wondering about that. I almost rather it goes that way.

- - - Updated - - -

It's a minor technicality that would be ignored in a liberal state.

Piazza no doubt will issue an amended order and injunction soon.

The Arkansas saga will go on for a while...

I should hope it wouldn't be ignored anywhere -- better to tidy up all the loose ends.

[Alnitak]

I should hope it wouldn't be ignored anywhere -- better to tidy up all the loose ends.

It is unenforceable in my book to have a law that operates only by color of law.

[T-Rexx]

If the Arkansas Supreme Court maintains the part of Piazza's ruling that cites Arkansas' Declaration of Rights, then the ruling will not be appealable to the US Supreme Court.

No, but if SCOTUS invalidates ALL state constitutional amendments banning gay marriage (as they should have done in Windsor), then nothing Arkansas does will matter. And that is likely to happen before Arkansas allows gay marriage through its own legal system.

Nothing is going to happen anywhere in the USA until SCOTUS rules.

[Alnitak]

No, but if SCOTUS invalidates ALL state constitutional amendments banning gay marriage (as they should have done in Windsor), then nothing Arkansas does will matter. And that is likely to happen before Arkansas allows gay marriage through its own legal system.

Nothing is going to happen anywhere in the USA until SCOTUS rules.

It would be nice to say Arkansas was the only Southern state to do it on its own accord, and the character of its judiciary does reflect well on the state.

[T-Rexx]

^ Yes, it would be nice to say that.

But, they haven't done that, have they?

[Alnitak]

^ Yes, it would be nice to say that.

But, they haven't done that, have they?

I think the AR Supreme Court will affirm Piazza's ruling. It affirmed his adoption ruling, so going on that there is good reason to think so.

[scream4ever]

It sounds like this technicality is going to be resolved very quickly:

Said Jack Wagoner, attorney for the plaintiffs:

We'll fix that tomorrow and be back here again.... How can order find something unconstitutional but not affect a statute that would require the clerks to do something unconstitutional?

http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog...es-to-same-sex

[Alnitak]

^^^

That's basically what I said in post 80. It will basically be a patch up job like you would do to drywall.

[Alnitak]

Here we go again...

Ark. judge says he will expand ruling, strike down ban on gay marriage licenses

Pulaski County Circuit Judge Chris Piazza told attorneys in a letter that he’ll issue an order Thursday declaring the law banning same-sex marriage licenses as unconstitutional.

Piazza's statement:

Dear Counsel:
Pursuant to Rule 60 of the Arkansas Rules of Civil Procedure, I am
notifying you of a correction of clerical errors in the May t'fi,20l4 "Order Summary Judgment in Favor of the Plaintiffs and Finding Act 144 of 1997 and Amendment 83 Unconstitutional," and notifying you that an order will be filed today on May 15,2014 with the declaration that Act 146 of 1997 (A.C.A. 9-11-208) is unconstitutional and granting the Plaintiffs request for injunctive relief."

https://www.facebook.com/nwaequality...52149775052993

[Alnitak]

Marriages resume!

The Pulaski County clerk says he’ll immediately resume issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples after a judge struck down a law that barred the practice.

Pulaski County Clerk Larry Crane says that his office will issue marriage licenses again to same-sex couples immediately Thursday after receiving Judge Chris Piazza’s order. Piazza ruled that the law barring county clerks from issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples is unconstitutional.

Ark. judge strikes down all state laws banning same-sex marriage

[Kulindahr]

It is unenforceable in my book to have a law that operates only by color of law.

I don't follow your response. ???

[Kulindahr]

No, but if SCOTUS invalidates ALL state constitutional amendments banning gay marriage (as they should have done in Windsor), then nothing Arkansas does will matter. And that is likely to happen before Arkansas allows gay marriage through its own legal system.

Nothing is going to happen anywhere in the USA until SCOTUS rules.

I can easily see this court deciding to let the matter "mature" another year, or even wait for the religious discrimination suit to make its way to them. With that issue in hand, it would give cover to some more conservative judges to say they're defending religious liberty and not have to address whether they think gays are second-class citizens.

[Kulindahr]

^^^

That's basically what I said in post 80. It will basically be a patch up job like you would do to drywall.

Now that I've stopped laughing and busting my gut....

I've hung enough drywall, both wall and ceiling, for that to strike me as hilarious. If we're going to use a drywall analogy, I'd compare it to a moment on a certain job when we were slapping up sheets in quick succession, and then behind us came a guy doing wiring, and stopped us and asked, "Where's the junction box?" In our rush, we'd failed to notice a stud with an attached junction box, where either an outlet or a light switch was meant to go, and covered it up. So we had to go back and find it, and cut a hole so the electrical guy could hook up circuits.

[Alnitak]

Health benefits are already beginning to flow.

[T-Rexx]

^ If there's anything Republicans hate more than Americans getting health insurance, it's gay Americans getting health insurance.

[rareboy]

I Hang my head in Shame.

[Alnitak]

Your mock of the name and then the gaff using Alaska's postal abbreviation really backfired and exposed the fallacy of the East Coast elitism. Shame on you.

Lazy thinkers elsewhere fall into the trap of thinking Arkansas is still a rancorous state with bitter racism as was seen in the Central High Crisis.

Well we never did pass anti-gay constitutional amendments here.

And rareboy is Canadian, which country is and has been morally above the United States since its inception. Can you name the abbreviations for all of the provinces? I can't.

[palbert]

Your mock of the name and then the gaff using Alaska's postal abbreviation really backfired and exposed the fallacy of the East Coast elitism. Shame on you.

Temper. Temper.

[Alnitak]

Anyone could list the failings of any state.

That doesn't make them equally guilty.

Whereas I couldn't name the Canadian abbreviations, I wouldn't be posting them without looking them up

At least it was a reasonable guess... Jackinsea did post a reminder.

nor would I be blanketing Canada with mocking disparagements.

Cmon we do it all the time

I don't believe Canadians are wool-cap-wearing lumberjacks with a vocabulary limited to "eh?" and I don't expect similar stereotypes in return.

On Wednesdays they go shopping, and have buttered scones for tea.

Maryland has its own flaws to live down. The goal isn't to make the states at war again.

It wasn't Maryland that started the Civil War, or resisted integration, and we were the first to pass same sex marriage electorally.

I guess I should be deeply grateful that a Canadian deigns to opine on Arkansas from afar. Right.

I think there is something to be said about the authority these countries carry to lecture the world about human rights.

[bankside]

Anyone could list the failings of any state. That doesn't validate sweeping bigotry against regions and states. Populations are diverse everywhere.

I agree with this. I must admit that well into my adulthood my impression of the south was that it was entirely filled with abject yokels. I do know when I began to question this impression - it was hearing James Carville back in the day on CNN. I even permitted myself to be astonished that someone could speak so insightfully and articulately with that accent.

Which propaganda arm of the Canadian government had forced this distorted view on me that James Carville began to dispel? Well, actually, you need look no further than the media and politics and news broadcasts of your own country, making their way across your northern border. Dukes of Hazzard. Jim and Tammy Faye. David Duke. Waco. Every Hollywood film ever made where the story requires us to understand someone's uneducated outsider status. Every mayor of New Orleans ever elected. Even Cletus on the Simpsons. I could go on, but that's all we had to go by.

Who knows how much depth and humanity and intellect inheres in the population there with these people, Americans, chosen by Americans, as the cultural ambassadors of this region?

Well, I do know it, and it helped me to appreciate the need for a little more skepticism in popular portrayals of different people. But perhaps you can appreciate how it was a challenge to discover.

Whereas I couldn't name the Canadian abbreviations, I wouldn't be posting them without looking them up nor would I be blanketing Canada with mocking disparagements.

Complete ignorance of another country's structure does not trump someone else's misremembered postal abbreviation as an indicator of objective and fair-minded commentary. For your reference:

British Columbia: BC
Alberta: AB
Saskatchewan: SK
Manitoba: MB
Ontario: ON
Quebec: QC
New Brunswick: NB
Nova Scotia: NS
Prince Edward Island: PE
Newfoundland and Labrador: NL
Nunavut: NU
Northwest Territories: NT
Yukon: YT

I don't believe Canadians are wool-cap-wearing lumberjacks with a vocabulary limited to "eh?" and I don't expect similar stereotypes in return.

Maryland has its own flaws to live down. The goal isn't to make the states at war again.



Indeed. The same patriotism that rises to defends one's nation rises to defends one's neighbors, against attacks, foreign and domestic.

I guess I should be deeply grateful that a Canadian deigns to opine on Arkansas from afar. Right.

I live more than 2000 km from any part of the US that could be said to be The South, and I've never been. Yet my own Capital is almost 3000 km away, and surely I should be allowed to comment on that. I think proximity is not really relevant. We both live in vast countries. Neither of us can hope to visit every corner of our own countries let alone each other's. It's likely each of us knows nothing of life in some place in his own country. Moreover both of us could probably find some part of each other's country where we have some greater insight than the one who actually shares the same nationality with that place. But that requires actually paying attention to the place and not worrying about whether you've memorised enough postal abbreviations to be qualified to comment.

[rareboy]

Tempest.

Teapot.

Translucent skin.

You are right. I remember now that he is from mizzoorah.

don't rightly know why I thought he was from Arkanzazz.

Is there anyone on JUB from AK? It would be interesting to have their take on the reaction in the state to this crack in the Bible Belt opposition to legalizing sodomitical marriage.

*Looks for the disparagement of an entire state*

[Alnitak]

We both live in vast countries.

But Canada is REALLY BIG, remember?

[Alnitak]

Responses to the new stay requests are due by 2 PM today.

http://equalityontrial.com/2014/05/1...est-2pm-today/

Also, Conway County will be issuing licenses.

http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2014/05/c...o-gay-couples/

Couples now have a matter of hours before a stay might be granted, and the next state is a few hundred miles up river.

[rareboy]

Hopefully as many people as possible do this before the clock strikes the witching hour.

[Kulindahr]

Your mock of the name and then the gaff using Alaska's postal abbreviation really backfired and exposed the fallacy of the East Coast elitism. Shame on you.

It's not just East Coast. It's west coast, too, and I heard the same kind of thing when I lived in Indiana and Illinois. Missouri and Arkansas are just a couple of states looked down on by people from all over. Even when I lived in Missouri I heard disparaging remarks about Arkansas, though more about Alabama (frak, even when I was in Texas, people made fun of Alabama!).