Chaotic on and off relationship

[james88]

I'm gonna try to keep this as brief as possible, just looking for some advice.

I met this boy when I moved to NYC about a year and a half ago. I'm 25 and he's 24. We hooked up a few times in August 2012, but then he went away to Europe. When he came back in February 2013, we started talking again and seeing each other a lot. I ended up living with him for a few weeks, which was really nice. We saw each other from February/March until the summer. During that time, we were kind of in this very open, casual relationship. I lived with him when I was in between places. We also created this big bro/little bro dynamic (or master/slave during our s/m kinkier times) and he turned me versatile (before I was more or less a top). Great, awesome sex. At this time, in the spring, he had big feelings for me, asked to be my bf, and I said no, then he said will you be my kind of bf, and I said yes - so that's what we were. He chased me that whole time, but I kept resisting him because I was hung up on an ex. He knew that was the reason, as well.

Then I went away for the entire summer to my home city to save money.

At the end of the summer, he came to visit me because his bf over the summer dumped him. He asked during August if I wanted to try dating when I got back. I said maybe.

Then in Sep/Oct we were sleeping together again. He was getting increasingly aggressive and nasty with me - we have sort of a chaotic, love/hate thing from all the resisting, plus he just gets into these crazy moods... very passionate dynamic, lots of aggressive masculine tension, power struggles, etc. Around Sep/Oct I told him I was starting to fall for him too, like how he had in the spring. And it was true - something just clicked and I fell for him, hard. Problem was, he didn't believe me.

Then one morning, we got in a little fight, and he punched me in the arm in bed, so I punched him back in the arm, then he started punching me in the chest and accidentally in the lip. This freaked me out and scared me so much (he's a lot stronger than me, bigger than me) that I basically felt like I was in an abusive relationship and quit talking to him for 2 months.

During that 2 months he BEGGED for me back, apologized, told me how much he missed me, told me that he was just skeptical and resentful and resisting his feelings. Eventually I ran into him at a party and decided to give him another chance.

So, we met up the next night (this is late November). I told him I think we should try to date, like, try to be normal, and see how that works for us. He said he wanted to, but that I had the worst timing, because he met someone 2 weeks before we started talking again and he wanted to try dating this other guy. So then I told him fine, fuck it, and kicked him out of my apartment. Then he texted me saying "okay, we can be more than friends, but let's take it slow and easy" to which I said okay.

At this point, the other guy is out of town for a few weeks. "My" guy told me that he would date both of us, and see what happens. I begrudgingly accepted this, because, from his point of view, I resisted him and then ignored him, so I couldn't expect him to just drop someone new because I "finally" came around.

Then, about a week before the other guy comes back, he tells me that he's going to date the other guy exclusively, and that I have to "wait my turn" because I "passed it all up" before. I'd remind him that he was an asshole and punched me in the face, but his main point is that I "had my chance" back in the spring. So to save face, I say fine, date the other guy exclusively, and we agree to stay friends and see what happens "in the future".

SO, his new boyfriend got back one week into January. But the guy would still text me all the time, so I'd reply. He knew I was uncomfortable about the situation and I'd even nag him about it ("if you say you love me too, why are you willing to risk making me wait?") - that type of thing. Anyways, a week and a half after his "new bf" is back in town, he invites me over, we hang out, argue, fuck and make up. So, that's when the cheating started. Then a few days later, I go over again, and this time we didn't argue, we had a great night, and fucking amazing sex and all the cuddling and affection after that I missed. Then this happened one more time, except he was doing his "dom masc top" roleplay the whole time, which means being kind of a jerk, saying how I'm the mistress and just his little cock boy, how I come all the way there because I love the dick, etc., all this degrading sex stuff (which is hot during the sex) - but he tends to personify it, but then he'll snap out of it later.

I don't know what to do. I saw a text message that night that he sent to the new guy where he said "goodnight babe I love you too" and I was just like, what the fuck? And him and I have said we love each other as well, but then, like the night he was being a jerk, I'll ask him if he still does (after seeing the text to the other guy) and he'll say not anymore... like, he toys with my emotions to keep the power in his control and I'm fucking sick of it. Ever since he's known I fell for him - except for the 2 months I ignored him - he's been using that to his advantage. I want things to go back to when I had the upper hand, but I don't know how, other than to ignore him again, which is risky, because I feel like if I don't give a little bit of effort, that he won't hang on... but on the other hand, when I give it up, like both emotionally and as a bottom, he acts like I'm so easy and gets off on the control. How can I reverse this and get him to chase me again, get him to be the one all wrapped up, without fucking it all up?

He tells me to just "chill and wait" and let him feel it out, but I'm sick of waiting. And I feel bad for the new guy too. Part of me just wants to ACTUALLY tell him to fuck off, but I don't want to lose him completely. But he only acts decent when he feels like he's gonna lose me.

[james88]

Oh, and for anyone who is interested in that kind of thing, I'm an ENFP and he's an INTJ.

[sixthson]

Don't be a doormat, James. Walk away while you still have some self respect.

[james88]

Don't be a doormat, James. Walk away while you still have some self respect.

Okay, this is the kind of simple answer I was expecting, but it sort of leaves out all the complexities of the situation: the fact that I pushed him away before and he didn't "walk away" on me, along with how he's complicit in all of it, too, like can't quit me either. We both have feelings for each other, so it's kind of hard to just walk away just because we're never in the same place at the same time in terms of what we want from each other. While I totally get where you are coming from (and it might be something I have to do), first I want to try changing the pace a little bit. Just by being less available, giving him the impression that my emotions have seceded as his once did, and seeing how he reacts to that - but I don't want it to be an obvious tactic. The dramatic route would be: fuck off, then that'd start, after about a week, a bunch of texts saying I miss you blah blah blah.

[Disturbance]

Okay, this is the kind of simple answer I was expecting, but it sort of leaves out all the complexities of the situation: the fact that I pushed him away before and he didn't "walk away" on me, along with how he's complicit in all of it, too, like can't quit me either. We both have feelings for each other, so it's kind of hard to just walk away just because we're never in the same place at the same time in terms of what we want from each other. While I totally get where you are coming from (and it might be something I have to do), first I want to try changing the pace a little bit. Just by being less available, giving him the impression that my emotions have seceded as his once did, and seeing how he reacts to that - but I don't want it to be an obvious tactic. The dramatic route would be: fuck off, then that'd start, after about a week, a bunch of texts saying I miss you blah blah blah.

Just let it go.

[KaraBulut]

He tells me to just "chill and wait" and let him feel it out, but I'm sick of waiting. And I feel bad for the new guy too. Part of me just wants to ACTUALLY tell him to fuck off, but I don't want to lose him completely. But he only acts decent when he feels like he's gonna lose me.

Out of curiosity...

Read your opening post. If you were to have one of your friends tell you a story about a relationship that borders on physical and emotional abuse, what advice would you give your friend?

[bruce379]

Great story in itself. But this is one reason I don't go into the master/ slave thing. Both of you have feelings for each other but there is this game in your relationship.

I guess I would say the same advice as the others. Although deep down I feel for you. And I sympathize with him too because you turned him down twice/three times. Then you two added the bdsm thing. And he has a current bf.

I would step away until this thing gets a little less complicated.

[LuckysRevenge]

You need to leave. The entire situation from start to finish looks and sounds very unhealthy.

Anyway would you want to date someone who has little problem cheating? (As you described it).

You might want to hear us say stay and work it out but there was nothing there in the first place besides a dysfunction fuck relationship.

[bruce379]

You need to leave. The entire situation from start to finish looks and sounds very unhealthy.

Anyway would you want to date someone who has little problem cheating? (As you described it).

You might want to hear us say stay and work it out but there was nothing there in the first place besides a dysfunction fuck relationship.

I'm not sure it's exactly cheating. Because more or less they were fully aware of what they were getting into. Plus they're not exactly a couple. Very hot fuck buddies yeah. Speaking for myself, I'd probably keep this thing for myself as fuckbuddies if only for the sex if I can get the bf too for a regular threesome. Because I'm such a slut otherwise if I'm on an emotional roller coaster I'll just look for another fuck buddy.

[LuckysRevenge]

I'm not sure it's exactly cheating. Because more or less they were fully aware of what they were getting into. Plus they're not exactly a couple. Very hot fuck buddies yeah. Speaking for myself, I'd probably keep this thing for myself as fuckbuddies if only for the sex if I can get the bf too for a regular threesome. Because I'm such a slut otherwise if I'm on an emotional roller coaster I'll just look for another fuck buddy.

The guy is cheating WITH the OP. He stated that this guy entered into an exclusive relationship with someone else.

[brokegayguy]

Story's kind of long and confusing, so I probably didn't catch everything. But I did catch this:

Around Sep/Oct I told him I was starting to fall for him too, like how he had in the spring. And it was true - something just clicked and I fell for him, hard. Problem was, he didn't believe me.

Sorry, I gotta side with him here. You took a whole YEAR after first meeting him to finally say you were actually into him. You don't go around fucking a guy on and off, not being open to saying you're boyfriends even though you were living with him, and then not expect him to feel brutally used or teased. You pretty much did this, even if it wasn't intentional.

What answer do you expect to hear? Things will get better and you'll live happily ever after with this dude? Because that is clearly not happening in a million years. Like everyone else is saying, just let it go. Don't even talk to them ever again, just say "I'm done" and move on with your life.

[bankside]

james, there is nothing complex about the situation. sixthson is right.


(and if it matters, i'm an INTJ)

[eastofeden]

I read this last night...walked away so I didn't say what I wanted to say...and now the only thing I DO want to say after having slept on it...he punched you in the mouth and chest and then apologized....what are you thinking? There is no scenario where that is going to be OK. Don't fool yourself...if that happened once...it will happen again.

[palbert]

Move on while the relationship is only unhealthy (verging on dangerous). There is zero future here.

[TX-Beau]

Walk



(Bankside, what's INTJ?)

[james88]

Great story in itself. But this is one reason I don't go into the master/ slave thing. Both of you have feelings for each other but there is this game in your relationship.

I guess I would say the same advice as the others. Although deep down I feel for you. And I sympathize with him too because you turned him down twice/three times. Then you two added the bdsm thing. And he has a current bf.

I would step away until this thing gets a little less complicated.

You're spot on about the feelings combined with the games/power. He's told me numerous time that he "needs to be dominant" and right now he has be under control. He's even gone as far to say "by the time this new relationship is over, you'll be the perfect, obedient boy. And it'll teach you that you can't control me, and that I won't ever wait for you." But the thing is, when I confessed my love, it was to try and move past the power struggle shit and just be real with each other. Like putting down our swords. But I'm starting to wonder if, because of the power dynamic and his need for control, if maybe we can never be like that. Is it possible to have an s/m dynamic and keep those manifestations of power strictly in the bedroom? Because I've always felt like what happened was, once we started doing that in bed, it started to come out in the relationship emotionally, too. And now he's realized that, since I admitted I love him, he doesn't even need to be "in a relationship" with me in order to have his way with me. Which isn't true, because it's driving me nuts. I like your advice to step away until it gets less complicated, and I want to do this, but I'm wondering HOW without causing a drama... we have all the same friends... go out all the same places... I want to keep the peace. I want to make it look like i've just naturally given up. But not like a retaliation, like fuck you, and block him out of my life. But it's hard to ignore someone for very long before they realize they're being ignored. But on the other hand I can't just totally block his number and block him online cause that'll be a dramatic grand gesture, causing drama.

Story's kind of long and confusing, so I probably didn't catch everything. But I did catch this:



Sorry, I gotta side with him here. You took a whole YEAR after first meeting him to finally say you were actually into him. You don't go around fucking a guy on and off, not being open to saying you're boyfriends even though you were living with him, and then not expect him to feel brutally used or teased. You pretty much did this, even if it wasn't intentional.

What answer do you expect to hear? Things will get better and you'll live happily ever after with this dude? Because that is clearly not happening in a million years. Like everyone else is saying, just let it go. Don't even talk to them ever again, just say "I'm done" and move on with your life.

I also thought this was a very interesting reply, since it is one of the few that didn't make me out to be some innocent bystander abused victim (which I never claimed to be, but I can see why people would be worried about that part). But to clarify, I didn't take a whole YEAR to tell him I was into him. We didn't really start hanging out a lot until the spring. Then I was gone in the summer. I took 6 months. Which is about 6 months longer than he took. But he tells me his feelings are still there, but they're just kind of "on hold" since by the time I spoke to him again, he entered something else. I realize that I did this myself, partially, which is why I'm trying not to be a diva and be all "how dare you put me 2nd".

But to be fair to me as well, it has now been... like 3-4 months since I told him I have feelings too, and in that time, he has not stepped up, despite saying his are still there. Oh, and also, to be fair to me too, back in the spring, even though he asked to be my bf, he would constantly scoff at couples. He just gave me the impression that he would never want to be in a "normal" relationship. So I didn't take him seriously. But then, in November, when I spoke to him again after the fight, we were lying in bed together discussing if it could ever work between us, and out of nowhere, he tells me all his fears. How we would fight over how to decorate an apartment, how we disagree on so many things - the same fears I used to have about being with him in the spring. And I said, wait a minute, do you even WANT to be that kind of couple that moves in together to their own place? I was completely taken aback when he said yes. So that came out of nowhere to me - that he DOES want to settle down with someone. And the next day I told him we should just stop, because all he can do is doubt me, and he said they were just fears and that we just need to give it time to see where it goes. Then that night we walked around holding hands... this was all before the new bf got back. Basically I feel like him entering a relationship with me would be way more of a serious thing than going around saying he's "exclusively dating" some new boy.

But the thing I can't handle is being on the back burner while he "tries it out" with someone new. As much as I would like the future to be better with us, putting me in fucking time-out is torture. I don't ever text him first lately, he always contacts me first, and I don't get why he is contacting me if he's got a new bf, because we always end up fucking, kissing, cuddling. I think not replying for a while will make him wonder what's going on and maybe he just needs to lose me again in order to put things in perspective. Or I just need to quit.

[james88]

I appreciate all the responses. For everyone saying "walk" and "quit", I hear you. It's just kinda hard to do when two people say they love each other and one person says "wait and be friends and we'll get there after".

[LuckysRevenge]

I appreciate all the responses. For everyone saying "walk" and "quit", I hear you. It's just kinda hard to do when two people say they love each other and one person says "wait and be friends and we'll get there after".

It's one thing to say I love you. It's another thing to prove it.
Everything he is doing has done screams that he doesn't really love you or perhaps doesn't understand what it means to love someone.

Either way, didnt he text someone else he loves him after sleeping with you?

[james88]

It's one thing to say I love you. It's another thing to prove it.
Everything he is doing has done screams that he doesn't really love you or perhaps doesn't understand what it means to love someone.

Either way, didnt he text someone else he loves him after sleeping with you?

Before. I would agree about him possibly not knowing HOW to love someone. That's spot on. Like he says he does, but doesn't know what to do about it. Or he's full of shit, who knows. I'm not hung up on him loving a new guy - hell, I saw him for months when I was totally hung up on an ex. It is totally possible to have feelings for more than one person at a time, and of course with a new guy they're all fresh and untainted and new, which is why he's giving him a "fair shot" as he puts it. What matters to me is who does he love more, and he would say that he doesn't know yet, and that it's "different". He's also made it very clear - when I say things like "you chose him over me" - he tells me how he didn't, and that we exist on separate timelines in his life, or something - that he didn't choose someone over me (which is how it feels...) so much as we weren't talking and he agreed to try something new by the time we started talking again. So to him it's not a matter of "choosing" as it is timing. :/

[LuckysRevenge]

Before. I would agree about him possibly not knowing HOW to love someone. That's spot on. Like he says he does, but doesn't know what to do about it. Or he's full of shit, who knows. I'm not hung up on him loving a new guy - hell, I saw him for months when I was totally hung up on an ex. It is totally possible to have feelings for more than one person at a time, and of course with a new guy they're all fresh and untainted and new, which is why he's giving him a "fair shot" as he puts it. What matters to me is who does he love more, and he would say that he doesn't know yet, and that it's "different". He's also made it very clear - when I say things like "you chose him over me" - he tells me how he didn't, and that we exist on separate timelines in his life, or something - that he didn't choose someone over me (which is how it feels...) so much as we weren't talking and he agreed to try something new by the time we started talking again. So to him it's not a matter of "choosing" as it is timing. :/

I hope you're able to read this and see how dramatic and unnecessary it all is.
He can tell you anything he wants. He loves this guy? Does the other guy know about you? Does he lie to this other guy about who he's with and what he's doing? Does the other guy think they are in an exclusive dating scenario?

And if this man you love can lie to someone he "loves" what makes you think he wouldn't lie to you?

[sixthson]

I'm afraid neither of you knows what love is. I hope you find the real thing some day. This is not it. If you have this kind of relationship early on, don't expect it to improve. I know you want someone to encourage you to pursue him, but that is not what you really need.

[Disturbance]

Even if you love each other, I think you should be both adults enough to face the fact that love in itself is pretty often not enough to make a relationship work.

[eastofeden]

But the thing I can't handle is being on the back burner while he "tries it out" with someone new. As much as I would like the future to be better with us, putting me in fucking time-out is torture. I don't ever text him first lately, he always contacts me first, and I don't get why he is contacting me if he's got a new bf, because we always end up fucking, kissing, cuddling. I think not replying for a while will make him wonder what's going on and maybe he just needs to lose me again in order to put things in perspective. Or I just need to quit.

He is training you to be emotionally, psychologically and physically addicted to and dependent on him. I can tell you one thing...he wouldn't bother unless he can see you are already pre-disposed to such a relationship so basically you are in the process of being owned.

There are all kinds of dominant and submissive relationships that don't involve mental or emotional or physical abuse.

Choose wisely!

[brokegayguy]

I appreciate all the responses. For everyone saying "walk" and "quit", I hear you. It's just kinda hard to do when two people say they love each other and one person says "wait and be friends and we'll get there after".

You are never going to "get there."

Ever.

[james88]

I hope you're able to read this and see how dramatic and unnecessary it all is.
He can tell you anything he wants. He loves this guy? Does the other guy know about you? Does he lie to this other guy about who he's with and what he's doing? Does the other guy think they are in an exclusive dating scenario?

And if this man you love can lie to someone he "loves" what makes you think he wouldn't lie to you?

Yeah, the other guy knows about me and is pretty suspicious. And yes, he lies to the other guy when he's with me. And yes, the other guy thinks they're in an exclusive dating scenario. It's fucked up, I know. And that's a very good point about if he can lie to one person, why not to me. The thing I really don't get, though, is if he doesn't love me or want me, then why does he keep texting me and keep me around.

Disturbance, I think you make a really good point too. Maybe that's it. I took too long, so that's my fault, but he's also being too childish and mind-fuck-y to make it work.

[james88]

He is training you to be emotionally, psychologically and physically addicted to and dependent on him. I can tell you one thing...he wouldn't bother unless he can see you are already pre-disposed to such a relationship so basically you are in the process of being owned.

There are all kinds of dominant and submissive relationships that don't involve mental or emotional or physical abuse.

Choose wisely!

I agree with this very much. I had a feeling that's what he's doing, as that is what a power-obsessed person would do. Although, he's admitted to being "addicted" to me too - which is awesome - literally addicted to me and addicted to my ass. The kind of sex that is bound by a very chemical attraction. As for being in the process of being "owned" - I wouldn't MIND being owned by him, if it was actually normal, mutual 'ownership', like an actual relationship - but he's only trying to own me psychologically. Probably as revenge for how I unintentionally did that to him in the spring when I was holding him at a distance. But this feels like unfair punishment.

brokegayguy - I could have gotten "there" if I would have said yes to him back in the spring.

[LuckysRevenge]

Yeah, the other guy knows about me and is pretty suspicious. And yes, he lies to the other guy when he's with me. And yes, the other guy thinks they're in an exclusive dating scenario. It's fucked up, I know. And that's a very good point about if he can lie to one person, why not to me. The thing I really don't get, though, is if he doesn't love me or want me, then why does he keep texting me and keep me around.

Disturbance, I think you make a really good point too. Maybe that's it. I took too long, so that's my fault, but he's also being too childish and mind-fuck-y to make it work.

He keeps you around because you put up with it and you're a good fuck. Plus you're easy and available.

It's up to you whether you want to be a doormat. Personally I'm not one to judge. If it's what you want, keep doing what you are doing. But in my opinion, you seem like a guy who deserves more.

[eastofeden]

I agree with this very much. I had a feeling that's what he's doing, as that is what a power-obsessed person would do. Although, he's admitted to being "addicted" to me too - which is awesome - literally addicted to me and addicted to my ass. The kind of sex that is bound by a very chemical attraction. As for being in the process of being "owned" - I wouldn't MIND being owned by him, if it was actually normal, mutual 'ownership', like an actual relationship - but he's only trying to own me psychologically. Probably as revenge for how I unintentionally did that to him in the spring when I was holding him at a distance. But this feels like unfair punishment.

.

After the punishment...you get a "reward"... until he possesses you...and he will not stop with you because once he owns you he will need to repeat the process with someone else...I know you don't want to hear that but it is true. If he does his job good enough...it will even be YOU who finds the guys for him.

This is how pimps find their whores...exact same circumstances....

Being "owned" can happen without all of that control...so let me ask...is his control intoxicating for you?...or is the idea of someone controlling you that much intoxicating?

[brokegayguy]

brokegayguy - I could have gotten "there" if I would have said yes to him back in the spring.

Key word being "could." But that ship has sailed now. Why would you even want to stick around him? He's already got a history of being physically and emotionally abusive, and he's basically sleeping around between you and this other guy, so you know he's not going to be loyal to you.

Next time he texts you or something, repeat after me: "You know what, I've had enough. I refuse to let you keep stringing me along, I'm sick of it. Don't talk to me ever again. Goodbye." Then block him out of your phone and your life.

[james88]

He keeps you around because you put up with it and you're a good fuck. Plus you're easy and available.

It's up to you whether you want to be a doormat. Personally I'm not one to judge. If it's what you want, keep doing what you are doing. But in my opinion, you seem like a guy who deserves more.

Obviously I don't want to be a doormat, I want things to chill out and take on a different stride. So I need to quit being available then. But I hope it's not true that he only keeps me around because I'm a "good fuck" and I'm "easy and available". I think there is an emotional reason as well, hence all the kissing and cuddling and mutual admissions of love. If he just wanted someone to fuck, I imagine he would do it with some random guy who he wouldn't feel emotionally conflicted about, and who wouldn't know about his current bf. Like, he could "just fuck" anyone - why an ex-lover?

After the punishment...you get a "reward"... until he possesses you...and he will not stop with you because once he owns you he will need to repeat the process with someone else...I know you don't want to hear that but it is true. If he does his job good enough...it will even be YOU who finds the guys for him.

This is how pimps find their whores...exact same circumstances....

Being "owned" can happen without all of that control...so let me ask...is his control intoxicating for you?...or is the idea of someone controlling you that much intoxicating?

This is kind of freaking me out. But yes, the idea of being his is definitely a turn on now. We've always had that going on a little bit, except now it's like I'm not his main thing. The idea of someone controlling me is kind of a turn on, like I like the idea of having to be "good" for someone and behave, but I guess I'm doing that for him without him even treating me right, whereas to him I'm doing it because I know I'm being punished for pushing him away at first. But anyways, if he were to possess me, I have to admit I think there is also a kind of control and power that the sub partner has... you know? Like, I had control/power over him when he had to work for me. So even if he is to possess me again (like if we got in an actual relationship), no matter what I'd have to always deny him a little bit to get respect, which just sounds like a vicious cycle of power.

brokegayguy - thanks for your advice... I'll consider that. I wanna be a little more subtle.

[KaraBulut]

(Bankside, what's INTJ?)

Myers-Briggs Type Indicator

[bruce379]

Obviously I don't want to be a doormat, I want things to chill out and take on a different stride. So I need to quit being available then. But I hope it's not true that he only keeps me around because I'm a "good fuck" and I'm "easy and available". I think there is an emotional reason as well, hence all the kissing and cuddling and mutual admissions of love. If he just wanted someone to fuck, I imagine he would do it with some random guy who he wouldn't feel emotionally conflicted about, and who wouldn't know about his current bf. Like, he could "just fuck" anyone - why an ex-lover?



This is kind of freaking me out. But yes, the idea of being his is definitely a turn on now. We've always had that going on a little bit, except now it's like I'm not his main thing. The idea of someone controlling me is kind of a turn on, like I like the idea of having to be "good" for someone and behave, but I guess I'm doing that for him without him even treating me right, whereas to him I'm doing it because I know I'm being punished for pushing him away at first. But anyways, if he were to possess me, I have to admit I think there is also a kind of control and power that the sub partner has... you know? Like, I had control/power over him when he had to work for me. So even if he is to possess me again (like if we got in an actual relationship), no matter what I'd have to always deny him a little bit to get respect, which just sounds like a vicious cycle of power.

brokegayguy - thanks for your advice... I'll consider that. I wanna be a little more subtle.

This is the reason I'm never into BDSM. It get's too fucked up. Too many mind games.

Obviously for both of you, you both find the sex incredible. The emotional attachment makes it higher and your fucked up mind games increases it much more. Both of you are basically like drug addicts. You both get a high from the sex, the emotional tension and the whatever you guys are into this master-slave dom-sub dynamic. It's a downward spiral now, ladies and gentlemen.

I know it's hard to quit especially if the sex is that good, and the sex is orders of magnitude better than others because of this chemistry, believe it or not, that you have developed over time and is quite intense. But this is analogous to addiction. Do you understand what I'm saying? So extrapolate the downward spiral of your analogous situation.

Bottomline: you need to quit for your own well-being. The more moving parts there are, the more you are liable to get hurt.

[james88]

This is the reason I'm never into BDSM. It get's too fucked up. Too many mind games.

Obviously for both of you, you both find the sex incredible. The emotional attachment makes it higher and your fucked up mind games increases it much more. Both of you are basically like drug addicts. You both get a high from the sex, the emotional tension and the whatever you guys are into this master-slave dom-sub dynamic. It's a downward spiral now, ladies and gentlemen.

I know it's hard to quit especially if the sex is that good, and the sex is orders of magnitude better than others because of this chemistry, believe it or not, that you have developed over time and is quite intense. But this is analogous to addiction. Do you understand what I'm saying? So extrapolate the downward spiral of your analogous situation.

Bottomline: you need to quit for your own well-being. The more moving parts there are, the more you are liable to get hurt.

You totally get it. And yes, we both find the sex incredible. I find it incredible to surrender to him, and he loves to "take" me... I'm not normally a bottom and he said he loves the way that I act like it sort of hurts or how it's like I'm surrendering but am not totally okay with it. And I love feeling dominated by him, feeling all of his power in me.

But what I'm trying to do, gradually - and I think this scares him when it's HIS call - like when I admitted I had feelings for him too - is to stop all the sick mindgame power stuff and just kind of both collapse to each other. To give in to each other. But this isn't happening, at least not at the moment, because he knows he has the upper hand right now. But what I don't get is why we can't shift all of this intensity (sexual, emotional, power oriented) into a somewhat-normal relationship. Like, if I would be "obedient" to him as a bf, and he would agree to play nice, then we would be fine - because when we're not having kinky sex, or fucking with each other's heads, we actually get along pretty well and do normal things and have tons of verbal chemistry. All the darker, sexual stuff I'm talking about is underneath - on the surface, we look like that couple that gets under each others skin. When we would go out to bars together, for example, people were fascinated by us and our back-and-forth banter, saying we act like a married couple - picking up on every little thing, all that stuff.

[bruce379]

You totally get it. And yes, we both find the sex incredible. I find it incredible to surrender to him, and he loves to "take" me... I'm not normally a bottom and he said he loves the way that I act like it sort of hurts or how it's like I'm surrendering but am not totally okay with it. And I love feeling dominated by him, feeling all of his power in me.

But what I'm trying to do, gradually - and I think this scares him when it's HIS call - like when I admitted I had feelings for him too - is to stop all the sick mindgame power stuff and just kind of both collapse to each other. To give in to each other. But this isn't happening, at least not at the moment, because he knows he has the upper hand right now. But what I don't get is why we can't shift all of this intensity (sexual, emotional, power oriented) into a somewhat-normal relationship. Like, if I would be "obedient" to him as a bf, and he would agree to play nice, then we would be fine - because when we're not having kinky sex, or fucking with each other's heads, we actually get along pretty well and do normal things and have tons of verbal chemistry. All the darker, sexual stuff I'm talking about is underneath - on the surface, we look like that couple that gets under each others skin. When we would go out to bars together, for example, people were fascinated by us and our back-and-forth banter, saying we act like a married couple - picking up on every little thing, all that stuff.

I'm jealous of the sex It reminds me of the the live threesome at the sex party I was watching last night.

Then, communicate it to him. "I don't want this BDSM stuff anymore. Let's stop the mind games and dom-sub routine. Let's just keep the fuck-each-others-brains-out-out-of-this-world-sex we are having. Can you do that? Hey, were not done. Harder hahaha"

[james88]

I'm jealous of the sex It reminds me of the the live threesome at the sex party I was watching last night.

Then, communicate it to him. "I don't want this BDSM stuff anymore. Let's stop the mind games and dom-sub routine. Let's just keep the fuck-each-others-brains-out-out-of-this-world-sex we are having. Can you do that? Hey, were not done. Harder hahaha"

Hmm, that's a good idea. I've tried to tell him before that we need to cut out the mindgames, the power struggle, and the skepticism... and we worked on it, but it still came up in the sex a little bit. But maybe it's true - maybe that kind of sex is contributing to the other dynamics. The thing is, I *do* want the bdsm shit during the sex, but it crosses over out of bed too much! So maybe it has to go. I like that idea - and keeping the just generally good fucking. But I'd want it to be infused with commitment and us taking each other seriously - and that's the part he's telling me to "wait" for. But I know he knows we deserve that chance because I've called him out on it very clearly before and he hasn't denied it. So, here is what I'll do: back off in general, no sex for a while. If we do have sex again, it'll have to be when he's single. And then make the sex less bdsm oriented, to try and have a generally healthier dynamic, then consider a relationship. Anyways, this is all assuming that my backing off will even have an effect on him. He texted me today, and I didn't reply at all, so I'll have to see if he starts to feel bad about it.

[bruce379]

I'd be civil with him. Not totally ignore him. That's more cruel than saying you broke up with him in his face. You can say hi and reply to his messages just make it clear to him you want to minimize any sexual contact while he's still preoccupied with someone else. You understand that this is harder than just ignoring him. And communicate to him that if you do hook up again BOTH of you need to cut out the bdsm in order to normalize the relationship to something more conventional.

[Seasoned]

Now it's a game to see you can back off the most? You are in an addictive relationship and you have the power to stay or not. Keeping away for a time is not the answer because you're both likely to end up in the same place once back together. You may need a 12-step program to break out of this cycle. Best wishes.

[KaraBulut]

So, here is what I'll do: back off in general, no sex for a while. If we do have sex again, it'll have to be when he's single. And then make the sex less bdsm oriented, to try and have a generally healthier dynamic, then consider a relationship. Anyways, this is all assuming that my backing off will even have an effect on him. He texted me today, and I didn't reply at all, so I'll have to see if he starts to feel bad about it.

The solution to the mindgames in your relationship is not going to be another mindgame.

There's something innately unhealthy about the behavior- for both you and the other guy.

It's really going to be up to you to break the cycle. And it's something that you may need to seek professional help to do so.

[bruce379]

The solution to the mindgames in your relationship is not going to be another mindgame.

There's something innately unhealthy about the behavior- for both you and the other guy.

It's really going to be up to you to break the cycle. And it's something that you may need to seek professional help to do so.

^^^word. like what he said. break the cycle by not initiating another mind-game that will escalate the second time around. that's what's fucking up your relationship right there, and the bad thing is, you're BOTH addicted to it. in my opinion, that's the only thing that's gumming up the works that prevent you from having a meaningful relationship with him. of course, you'd still have to wait out your penalty box period with the other guy in his life, but i think there's a good chance that he'd come around once he realizes you aren't playing his game anymore and no more escalation is going on. tell us how it went.

take a break.

good luck.

[maxpowr9]

james, there is nothing complex about the situation. sixthson is right.


(and if it matters, i'm an INTJ)

Yep, as a fellow INTJ, he's a "bad INTJ" aka a sociopath. There will be no love from him EVER! He will delude you into into thinking you love him but the reality is, he only knows how to emotionally manipulate people to get what he wants. When he gets bored with a person, he will move onto another. If you want to associate with a sociopath, you do so at your own choosing but the sympathy train will end.

[Rolyo85]

You've both treated this immaturely at different times, like some game with winners and losers, with some twisted "you did it to me, so you deserve me doing it to you" abusive bullshit. Nothing about this situation gives the impression that either of you ever had real deep feelings other than sexual attraction and some mild infatuation.

You're both immature, and he's an abuser and a cheater. Remove him from his life completely, reflect and heal.

[Rolyo85]

And to add - you need to stop agreeing with us and elaborating on how much you get off on being owned and abused, and wake up. You can get all of this from a good loving guy who doesn't actually seek to damage you permanently. Cut him out. Completely and forever. EVERYTHING else is secondary.

[james88]

^^^word. like what he said. break the cycle by not initiating another mind-game that will escalate the second time around. that's what's fucking up your relationship right there, and the bad thing is, you're BOTH addicted to it. in my opinion, that's the only thing that's gumming up the works that prevent you from having a meaningful relationship with him. of course, you'd still have to wait out your penalty box period with the other guy in his life, but i think there's a good chance that he'd come around once he realizes you aren't playing his game anymore and no more escalation is going on. tell us how it went.

take a break.

good luck.

What is the difference between honestly taking a break (which is what I'm trying to do, but inherently involves ignoring him/backing away) and "playing a mindgame" back? It seems like a lot of people here think that my decision to ignore/back away is just another mindgame that feeds the cycle. I'm trying to do the normal thing - not escalate, but back off, not as a game, but because I'm honestly exhausted, and yeah, I think there is a better chance of coming around healthily if the games stop.

As for bad INTJ's being sociopaths, yeah, I've definitely gotten that vibe from him, and it freaks me out, how manipulating and conniving they can be... but they're just extremely strategic. I'm not sure yet if I can call someone all bad - like I said in my initial post, I'm no angel here either... But I'm curious, what separates a good INTJ from a bad one?

Rolyo - I think you sound a little judgmental to assume that in all the off-and-on chaotic stuff, that in a year of sleeping with each other and being lovers/friends/not sure/, that we don't have any real emotions or tender moments together, and that it's like, ALL BAD. Obviously I wouldn't bother with hope if it was all bad. There is some good, and I love that good. But in any case I am going to quit talking to him for a while and date other people, because the thought of him being with another guy, in and of itself, is getting to me too much.

[KaraBulut]

What is the difference between honestly taking a break (which is what I'm trying to do, but inherently involves ignoring him/backing away) and "playing a mindgame" back? It seems like a lot of people here think that my decision to ignore/back away is just another mindgame that feeds the cycle.

The advice that you're wanting is advice that supports a rather unhealthy, skewed perspective. You've gotten the advice from people in the forum who have a lot of life and relationship experience. And it's been consistent and rather detailed advice that this relationship isn't healthy. But that's not advice that you want to hear.

We have people who come here who are in a hole, yet they want to keep digging. That is always their choice. No one is required to follow the advice they are offered... we only ask that they listen.

[eastofeden]

As for bad INTJ's being sociopaths, yeah, I've definitely gotten that vibe from him, and it freaks me out, how manipulating and conniving they can be... but they're just extremely strategic. I'm not sure yet if I can call someone all bad - like I said in my initial post, I'm no angel here either... But I'm curious, what separates a good INTJ from a bad one?

.

I think every single Meyers Briggs personality type is probably capable of the greatest good..and the greatest evil...and everything in between. Sociopaths come in all flavors....

[bruce379]

What is the difference between honestly taking a break (which is what I'm trying to do, but inherently involves ignoring him/backing away) and "playing a mindgame" back? It seems like a lot of people here think that my decision to ignore/back away is just another mindgame that feeds the cycle. I'm trying to do the normal thing - not escalate, but back off, not as a game, but because I'm honestly exhausted, and yeah, I think there is a better chance of coming around healthily if the games stop.

As for bad INTJ's being sociopaths, yeah, I've definitely gotten that vibe from him, and it freaks me out, how manipulating and conniving they can be... but they're just extremely strategic. I'm not sure yet if I can call someone all bad - like I said in my initial post, I'm no angel here either... But I'm curious, what separates a good INTJ from a bad one?

Rolyo - I think you sound a little judgmental to assume that in all the off-and-on chaotic stuff, that in a year of sleeping with each other and being lovers/friends/not sure/, that we don't have any real emotions or tender moments together, and that it's like, ALL BAD. Obviously I wouldn't bother with hope if it was all bad. There is some good, and I love that good. But in any case I am going to quit talking to him for a while and date other people, because the thought of him being with another guy, in and of itself, is getting to me too much.

my dear james,

i'm sorry if you misunderstood my intention when i said 'take a break'. i should have stated it a bit clearer. my bad.

what i meant to say when i said that is that you should take some time off for yourself, as in a real vacation, away from him for a short while. in my experience, it seems that to physically go away in terms of a real vacation, is quite helpful in relaxing and your mind from the accumulated cares of life. And once you come back, you feel refreshed in dealing with stuff again with a clearer head and possibly a better plan or disposition.

you can also consider dating other guys a vacation from him, in this sense. but aside from dating, i think you really need to go away for yourself - treat yourself to a real vacation. Europe? Rio? London? SF?

i'm not an expert in the INTJ etc. stuff terms that you guys are into, so i won't go there and pretend i know something about it.

i sincerely hope to see you and him find a more conventional relationship without the BDSM mindset because i feel that somewhere deep inside, you both want a regular relationship and the BDSM is the only thing poisoning an awesome relationship and i would wish that you two can find it and engage in a happy and healthy relationship.

we haven't met obviously but i could sense the delicious tension and underlying desire you have for this guy. you want him. i can see it from here. i can see that you crave the sex. that intense feeling when you both bond together in bed, no doubt is a HUGE factor why you like him. who wouldn't? and that's what i mean. it's like you had cocaine and you can't stop the craving. he craves you too because you both feed each other (i didn't realize the pun there). he doesn't get that intensity without you either. so all you have to figure out now is how to cut away the BDSM aspect and leave the sexual intensity of it!

ok. so now, you said that you want to back away a little bit. i think that's healthy for you. i think you should follow your own advice and start dating other people because he's with another guy in any case. you are right not to initiate contact in order to train yourself from needing him (i know how hard it is - i've been in this kind of situation before). if he contacts you, fine. say hi. say, i hope you're doing ok. i would hope that you still say hi when you see him passing by, that is being civil. you might even have occasions where you might have lunch with him together with your friends, why not? you can distance yourself from him without totally avoiding him. it trains you about self-control. don't get me wrong, this is difficult.

suppose he says, 'can i see you?' that's when you start to back off a little bit by replying, 'but aren't you dating this other guy? maybe it's not such a good idea at the moment.' i'm sure a lot of scenarios can play out but stick to your guns. 'i'm starting to see other guys too while you're still dating your guy. i'm not doing this to play those mind games we play with each other. i want to break the cycle. i'm looking for a more conventional relationship, that's why i'm starting to date. if we ever get back again, i want a more conventional relationship. no more BDSM shit. no more dom-sub games. intense fucking, sure. but no more mind games. i'm exhausted of that. and that will only happen when we both treat each other as equals. i'd still bottom, sure, but i won't be your sub anymore. i'm done with that shit.'

i can only imagine the make-up sex you are going to have if you do get back together again. and as long as you don't go back to your old sex game addictions again, i think the two of you might make a decent couple.

this scenario may be too simplistic. life is never as simple as we plan. and besides, once you start seeing other guys, who knows? you might find someone better. that's the hope at least. although i can tell that by every letter you write, you still desire him. perfectly typical and normal and predictable.

"Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness." - the Architect, The Matrix.

i hope you the best in resolving this for the better. for your health and peace of mind.

[bruce379]

BDSM mindfuck

[mcbrion]

What's his birth date and what's yours? I'll do an astrological comparison. get as close to the birth time.
Astrology points out, where you match, and where you clash.

[bruce379]

What's his birth date and what's yours? I'll do an astrological comparison. get as close to the birth time.
Astrology points out, where you match, and where you clash.

oh pleez. if you can tell me the open, hi, low and close of the s&p 500 index on feb. 22, 2014 sure, then i'll give astrology a go.

[maxpowr9]

I think every single Meyers Briggs personality type is probably capable of the greatest good..and the greatest evil...and everything in between. Sociopaths come in all flavors....

True but INTJ is the type that gets most pinned as a sociopath due to our apparent lack of empathy. However, like any person, you have to look at their actions and not their words because people do lie but it's near impossible to feign an action.