Religious ignorance plus hate

[Kulindahr]

According to ABC news, they said Muslims could leave before they started shooting.

They claim to be associated with Al-Qaeda.


It's religious ignorance. Nothing in the Qu'ran backs this sort of barbarity:

Masked gunmen stormed a packed upmarket shopping mall in Nairobi, killing 39 people and wounding 150 more in a massacre claimed by Somalia's Al Qaeda-linked Shebab rebels.

Source Link (Agence France-Presse): http://news.yahoo.com/somalias-sheba...182747786.html

Of course Kenyan officials have a different view...

"They want to cause fear and despondency in our country, but we will not be cowed," Kenyatta said, adding: "Terrorism is a philosophy of cowards."

Kenyan police described the attackers as a well-organised "terror gang" numbering around 10.

How does one fight such subhuman hate?

[xbuzzerx]

It's also my understanding that, unlike with how many people view Christianity, the Qu'ran itself is not the final, definitive word on what is or is not acceptable for Muslims to practice. In cases where the hadith contradicts the Qu'ran, the hadith takes precedence. So even when extremist groups-- either from within Islam or attacking it from the outside--- quote some out of context verse from the Qu'ran to justify doing something awful, they are very likely not actually theologically supported whatsoever according to actual Islam.

[Telstra]

The problem with some religion is it insist its book is perfect and is superior to anyone else.
This religious superiority of thinking is hard to tackle if there are over 1 billion peer pressures.

[zoltanspawn]

Nothing in the Qu'ran backs this sort of barbarity:

Isn't it better transliterated from the Arabic as Qur'an?

[xbuzzerx]

The problem with some religion is it insist its book is perfect and is superior to anyone else.
This religious superiority of thinking is hard to tackle if there are over 1 billion peer pressures.

What you say is more true of Christianity than of Islam.

In formal Islam, the hadith supercedes the Qu'ran. When extremist groups use the Qu'ran to justify something they're doing, it's very likely because the hadith would not support what they are doing.

If you are a "real Muslim", you accept the hadith. There is no one billion people's worth of peer pressure to follow some pure teaching of the Qu'ran in Islam.

[Kulindahr]

The problem with some religion is it insist its book is perfect and is superior to anyone else.
This religious superiority of thinking is hard to tackle if there are over 1 billion peer pressures.

That's not really the issue. The trouble is that they don't actually pay attention to the book -- they just take the notion of superiority, and their hate, and make use of religion as an excuse to be subhuman.

[Kulindahr]

Isn't it better transliterated from the Arabic as Qur'an?

I sit corrected.

My only excuse is that I'm watching Monk and playing Civilization II while JUBbing.

[bort138]

Religion needs to go away period. The problem isn't religious extremism, it's that religion exists at all. If their holy book didn't have verses that could be so easily used to justify violence against infidels it wouldn't matter how literal their interpretation was. As long as people view a book written by humans in the 7th century as a moral guide, things like this will continue to occur.

[Kulindahr]

Religion needs to go away period. The problem isn't religious extremism, it's that religion exists at all. If their holy book didn't have verses that could be so easily used to justify violence against infidels it wouldn't matter how literal their interpretation was. As long as people view a book written by humans in the 7th century as a moral guide, things like this will continue to occur.

That shows immense ignorance of humanity. People have done the same for all kinds of ideologies, not just religion. Religion is just a tool to them, as is nationalism, racism, and anything else humans can get passionate about.

[bort138]

That shows immense ignorance of humanity. People have done the same for all kinds of ideologies, not just religion. Religion is just a tool to them, as is nationalism, racism, and anything else humans can get passionate about.

I don't think religion is a tool at all to them. They honestly believe that they are making the world better and doing god's work when they carry out these terrorist attacks. They act this way because they believe that this is what their god wants. This is why faith is so dangerous and why religion is such an incredibly flawed system for deriving morality. These Islamofascists are the unfortunate side effect of a culture where faith is considered virtuous.

[Kulindahr]

I don't think religion is a tool at all to them. They honestly believe that they are making the world better and doing god's work when they carry out these terrorist attacks. They act this way because they believe that this is what their god wants. This is why faith is so dangerous and why religion is such an incredibly flawed system for deriving morality. These Islamofascists are the unfortunate side effect of a culture where faith is considered virtuous.

You can say the same thing about people following any ideology.

As for faith, it's part of human nature -- we can't survive without it.

[Mariatenebre]

According to ABC news, they said Muslims could leave before they started shooting.

They claim to be associated with Al-Qaeda.


It's religious ignorance. Nothing in the Qu'ran backs this sort of barbarity:




Of course Kenyan officials have a different view...



How does one fight such subhuman hate?

Nothing in the Quran backs this barbarity, really?
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...3-violence.htm

[bort138]

You can say the same thing about people following any ideology.

As for faith, it's part of human nature -- we can't survive without it.

The problem with faith-based ideologies like religion is there is no way to reason someone out of their position. What use is a rational argument against their behavior if they do not value rationality?

Faith is something that can be overcome. We just need to stop teaching children that faith is valid reason for belief.

[Kulindahr]

Nothing in the Quran backs this barbarity, really?
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...3-violence.htm

Hate from a hater.

[Kulindahr]

The problem with faith-based ideologies like religion is there is no way to reason someone out of their position. What use is a rational argument against their behavior if they do not value rationality?

Faith is something that can be overcome. We just need to stop teaching children that faith is valid reason for belief.

Faith is something people rely on every day. Most people would never get on an airplane without faith.

[bort138]

Faith is something people rely on every day. Most people would never get on an airplane without faith.

You love to make this equivocation with the word "faith." You may as well say that it requires faith to believe that the sun will come up tomorrow.

[Kulindahr]

You love to make this equivocation with the word "faith." You may as well say that it requires faith to believe that the sun will come up tomorrow.

According to my physics 300 series professor in college, it does -- but that's really stretching my point.

[bort138]

According to my physics 300 series professor in college, it does -- but that's really stretching my point.

Trusting that your airplane won't crash based on the low probability of airplane crashes and the many safeguards in place to ensure flight safety is a rational position that it based on evidence. This definition of faith is "confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability."

The kind of faith I have a problem with is the kind that religion requires. This definition of faith is "belief that is not based on proof."

[Kulindahr]

Trusting that your airplane won't crash based on the low probability of airplane crashes and the many safeguards in place to ensure flight safety is a rational position that it based on evidence. This definition of faith is "confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability."

The kind of faith I have a problem with is the kind that religion requires. This definition of faith is "belief that is not based on proof."

That definition tends to be the resort of people who demand the sort of proof that rarely occurs in the real world. The definition of faith in the Bible, at least, is trust in a person. And that kind of faith is essential to human life.

[bort138]

Why is the Bible considered trustworthy? Because it says so? I can trust in a person I know based on a judgement of character and past experiences with that person.

[Stardreamer]

Humans have a basic need to believe in something beyond themselves, this is what researches found, we are hardwired to believe. That manifests itself in religion. If you take religion away, as Kuli points out, people will just fill that void with something else and the more radical will always take it to the extreme. It is such a basic part of our nature that trying to suppress it would probably do as much if not more harm to people than the allowing religions to stay and just trying to manage the extremism.

[Kulindahr]

Why is the Bible considered trustworthy? Because it says so? I can trust in a person I know based on a judgement of character and past experiences with that person.

Not a very subtle move at changing the subject.

[bort138]

Not a very subtle move at changing the subject.

Not a very subtle way to not answer the question.

[TX-Beau]

GGRRROOOOAAAANNNNNN.

Can't we leave this endless tedium argument in the religion forum?

[bankside]

It's religious ignorance. Nothing in the Qu'ran backs this sort of barbarity:

It's also my understanding that, unlike with how many people view Christianity, the Qu'ran itself is not the final, definitive word on what is or is not acceptable for Muslims to practice. In cases where the hadith contradicts the Qu'ran, the hadith takes precedence.

The point is not what the Koran says or the writings following it - none of those things matter since the establishment of the United Nations and the development of declarations of human rights. Terrorism is not protected under international law, and people with a bone to pick have to govern themselves accordingly.

Knowing that, it resolves issues like this:

That's not really the issue. The trouble is that they don't actually pay attention to the book --

Religion needs to go away period.

That shows immense ignorance of humanity.

…because it doesn't matter whether they pay attention to the Koran or Star Wars or My Fair Lady, terrorism is still wrong.

[xbuzzerx]

Since the topic is about religion and ignorance and what is or isn't justified by religious belief, and not whether or not terrorism is bad or international law condemns it, no, we didn't miss a point. And these declarations of what is actually pertinent are tiresome, particularly when they aren't correct.

[TX-Beau]

Since the topic is about religion and ignorance and what is or isn't justified by religious belief, and not whether or not terrorism is bad or international law condemns it, no, we didn't miss a point. And these declarations of what is actually pertinent are tiresome, particularly when they aren't correct.

I don't think you inhabit the religion forum so let me sum up:
(as soon as all the usual suspects arrive - most of them are here, but some are TARDY! you know who you are)

Christian: ISLAM IS BARBAROUS!

Pagan: ABRAHAMIC RELIGIONS ARE BARBAROUS!

Atheist: ALL RELIGIONS ARE BARBAROUS!

Shit Stirrer: THE ATHEIST CALLED ME A STINKER!

Atheist: NO I DIDN'T GOD IS FICTION!

Christian/Pagan/Shit Stirrer: YOU HAVE NO FAITH!!

Atheist: DUH!

Muslim: (...crickets chirping..).

Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Kulindahr]

Not a very subtle way to not answer the question.

The point to which my comment was a reply, namely the nature of faith, was relevant to this topic. Your attempt to change the subject was not.

[Kulindahr]

I asked how one fights such subhuman hate. Suggestions so far....

• eliminate religion
• eliminate faith
• more hate

seem to be the only actual offerings.


I regard the first as impossible so long as humans seek deep truth, the second impossible so long as there are humans, and the third counterproductive.

[xbuzzerx]

I asked how one fights such subhuman hate. Suggestions so far....

• eliminate religion
• eliminate faith
• more hate

seem to be the only actual offerings.


I regard the first as impossible so long as humans seek deep truth, the second impossible so long as there are humans, and the third counterproductive.

My answer would be work on reforming the socioeconomic systems in which extremist strains of religion preaching violent change are likely to gain traction. Usually inordinately unequal parts of the world with low amounts of social equity or justice. Conditions such as watching your ruling elite hold 90+% of the wealth while they import Filipino guest workers to do the work-work, and are financially or militarily propped up with help from the West.

Divestment from many of these countries would be a great start but for that America has to deal with its oil addiction as a first step.

[bort138]

The point to which my comment was a reply, namely the nature of faith, was relevant to this topic. Your attempt to change the subject was not.

I wasn't trying to change the subject. I interpreted your comment on "faith in the Bible" to mean "trust that the Bible is true" but you seemed to have meant "the Bible commands trust when it means faith."

[bankside]

I asked how one fights such subhuman hate. Suggestions so far....

• eliminate religion
• eliminate faith
• more hate

seem to be the only actual offerings.


I regard the first as impossible so long as humans seek deep truth, the second impossible so long as there are humans, and the third counterproductive.

You missed the suggestion to build on international norms of civilised behaviour. We've even declared them and sent people at risk of their lives to uphold them in many cases.

[Kulindahr]

I wasn't trying to change the subject. I interpreted your comment on "faith in the Bible" to mean "trust that the Bible is true" but you seemed to have meant "the Bible commands trust when it means faith."

I said "the definition of faith in the Bible", in contrast to your definition of faith. It wasn't about anything the Bible commands, it was that when the Bible says "faith", the meaning is "trust (in a person)".

[Kulindahr]

You missed the suggestion to build on international norms of civilised behaviour. We've even declared them and sent people at risk of their lives to uphold them in many cases.

Okay; consider that added to the list.

[bort138]

I said "the definition of faith in the Bible", in contrast to your definition of faith. It wasn't about anything the Bible commands, it was that when the Bible says "faith", the meaning is "trust (in a person)".

Understood.

[Mariatenebre]

Hate from a hater.

If by the hater you mean Mohammad and his Quran then you are right.

[lambdaboy]

"Imagine no religion it isn't hard to do"

[Rolyo85]

If by the hater you mean Mohammad and his Quran then you are right.

Do you have an off button? Your simplistic ignorance is embarrassing.

[Mariatenebre]

Do you have an off button? Your simplistic ignorance is embarrassing.

This coming from an Islamophile Liberal who has clearly never studied the Quran, Hadith or the teachings of Islam. Jihad against infidels has always been part of Islamic doctrine. Because of this idea it has caused countless civilizations and religious groups to be wiped off the mouth. If you had actually done some research instead of being a Islamophile and an apologist to the racist, sexist, homophobic and violent ideology that is Islam you would know that. I actually have the facts the one who actually has simplistic ignorance is you because I can easily debunk your claims with Islam's source materials.

[xbuzzerx]

This coming from an Islamophile Liberal who has clearly never studied the Quran, Hadith or the teachings of Islam. Jihad against infidels has always been part of Islamic doctrine. Because of this idea it has caused countless civilizations and religious groups to be wiped off the mouth. If you had actually done some research instead of being a Islamophile and an apologist to the racist, sexist, homophobic and violent ideology that is Islam you would know that. I actually have the facts the one who actually has simplistic ignorance is you because I can easily debunk your claims with Islam's source materials.

I can find hate cites that mis-contextualize the sections on 7alal as being "actually" about hacking off the heads of people.

That doesn't make it true, nor does an extremist or zealous reading into those passages--- by either an extremist Muslim OR an extremist anti-Muslim--- mean that it is a proper understanding of what is actually taught or touted by anyone but extremists.

[Mariatenebre]

I can find hate cites that mis-contextualize the sections on 7alal as being "actually" about hacking off the heads of people.

That doesn't make it true, nor does an extremist or zealous reading into those passages--- by either an extremist Muslim OR an extremist anti-Muslim--- mean that it is a proper understanding of what is actually taught or touted by anyone but extremists.

The problem with your statements is that the Quran and Hadith both make clear pronouncements on fighting against Infidels and yes cutting off their heads as well. Mohammad's life was one of a warlord and conqueror who brutally fought against those who disbelieved. All of the Abrahamic religions have touted violence and hate against disbelievers. Mohammad was really no different and took the worst aspects of Judaism and Christianity (which were evil enough as is) in order to make his own religion. Which again I can show verses from the Quran, Hadith and Sunnah of Mohammad to support my point.

[xbuzzerx]

The problem with your statements is that the Quran and Hadith both make clear pronouncements on fighting against Infidels and yes cutting off their heads as well. Mohammad's life was one of a warlord and conqueror who brutally fought against those who disbelieved. All of the Abrahamic religions have touted violence and hate against disbelievers. Mohammad was really no different and took the worst aspects of Judaism and Christianity (which were evil enough as is) in order to make his own religion. Which again I can show verses from the Quran, Hadith and Sunnah of Mohammad to support my point.

I can show passages in the Bible saying to cast unclean women out into the desert to die.

What is your point exactly?

[Rolyo85]

Buttercup, I have never said a single word in support of Islam. Or are you one of those 'phobes who are of the opinion that everyone who doesn't bash Islam every chance they get, are praying in the direction of Mecca three times a day?

[Mariatenebre]

I can show passages in the Bible saying to cast unclean women out into the desert to die.

What is your point exactly?

Do you think I am for the Bible? Anyone who knows me, knows that I am against all of the Abrahamic religions. As I said before Islam is as vile as it is because Mohammad took the worst aspects of Christianity and Judaism in order to make his own religion. The Bible's evil dosen't make the Quran's evil any less immoral.

Buttercup, I have never said a single word in support of Islam. Or are you one of those 'phobes who are of the opinion that everyone who doesn't bash Islam every chance they get, are praying in the direction of Mecca three times a day?

You like most Islamophiles bash anyone who criticizes Islam and who dosen't say that "Islam is a wonderful and peaceful religion." When any scholar will tell you it is not.

[Rolyo85]

You like most Islamophiles bash anyone who criticizes Islam and who dosen't say that "Islam is a wonderful and peaceful religion." When any scholar will tell you it is not.

Actually, you have no basis for saying that, as - again - I've never said a word about Islam anywhere that you can read. What I bash, is lazy, sloppy hateful thinking. On any subject. Of which you exhibit quite a lot.

[Kulindahr]

I can show passages in the Bible saying to cast unclean women out into the desert to die.

What is your point exactly?

She's demonstrating religious hate.

It's a superb example of the issue I raised here: seeing only the good in the position she holds, and unable to see anything but bad in anything else.

[Mariatenebre]

She's demonstrating religious hate.

It's a superb example of the issue I raised here: seeing only the good in the position she holds, and unable to see anything but bad in anything else.

No I am exhibiting a reaction to hate. It has nothing to do with not being able to see the good in other views. I can see this however I am objective and I see the bad as well. The sexism, racism, homophobia, violence, hatred and barbarity of the Abrahamic religions are too great for me to ignore. Why should I not hate religions that say that homosexuality is evil and that gay people should be killed, why should I not hate religions that say that women should submit to men, why should I not hate religions that say that anyone who disbelieves in them deserves to be tortured in the next life and/or hurt in this one? It is common sense to hate these religions.