Trayvon's Killer Goes Free

[Just_Believe18]

Zimmerman found not guilty. The jury didn't even convict him of manslaughter. I guess if you pursue someone with a gun after being told not to, then kill the person, you too can go free and sign up for book deals, television shows, and have your own, gun-toting fan club.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/13/justic...html?hpt=hp_t1

(CNN)

-- George Zimmerman is not guilty of murder in the death of Trayvon Martin, a Florida jury decided late Saturday.The fact that Zimmerman fired the bullet that killed Martin was never in question, but the verdict means the six-person jury had reasonable doubt that the shooting amounted to a criminal act.

[Vitamin]

Gun laws are not at fault here, Stand Your Ground laws are. States like Florida and Texas should rejoin the rest of the country and not have such a broad definition of self-defense.

[tigerfan482]

Gun laws are not at fault here, Stand Your Ground laws are. States like Florida and Texas should rejoin the rest of the country and not have such a broad definition of self-defense.

I think the two go hand-in-hand. When you have a state that has lax gun laws and a populace that enjoys their firearms, then they are going to have laws that maximize the usage of them, including these all-inclusive Stand Your Ground laws. Florida's law should be changed to a Instigate and then Stand Your Ground law.

[Vitamin]

^ You better have evidence to back up your claim because it really doesn't look like its true, tiger. California and Rhode Island (just to name two not so pro-gun states) have some form of Stand Your Ground whereas Virginia and North Carolina do not.

[nycguydowntown]

Getting real justice in this country is a roll of the dice---guilty people are free and innocent people are in jail or receive the death penalty---

[CowboyBob]

This is so wrong. A killer goes free.

[tigerfan482]

^ You better have evidence to back up your claim because it really doesn't look like its true, tiger. California and Rhode Island (just to name two not so pro-gun states) have some form of Stand Your Ground whereas Virginia and North Carolina do not.

I'm not making the claim that ONLY pro-gun states have Stand Your Ground Laws. Many states have some form of Stand Your Ground laws as pertaining to the home or personal property. However, laws such as those in Florida, greatly extend Stand Your Ground while reducing the requirements of when it can be used. California's, for instance, requires that you "in good faith" must exhaust attempts to avoid further violence before resorting to deadly force. Florida's has no such requirement.

So my point is that where you have wide leeway with Stand Your Ground, you have lax gun laws and pro-gun states.

Here is a good article actually comparing Florida and Virginia in their Castle Doctrine laws: http://rvanews.com/news/florida-vs-v...nse-laws/58745

[Zu-Mendel]

Emotionally I believe Zimmerman should have been charged with manslaughter, but logically I've known this is how the ruling would have been since it happened. If the State cannot prove Zimmerman's guilt to a jury, beyond a reasonable doubt, then the man goes free. Lady Justice is a tough bitch sometimes.

[rocabar]

[Luciant]

Zimmerman found not guilty. The jury didn't even convict him of manslaughter. I guess if you pursue someone with a gun after being told not to, then kill the person, you too can go free and sign up for book deals, television shows, and have your own, gun-toting fan club.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/13/justic...html?hpt=hp_t1
[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

Yep, you can pursue someone with a gun and shoot them (or "stand your ground"), but only if your victim is black.

[Rolyo85]

I am disgusted beyond words...

[MisterMajestic]

I watched a good bit of the Trial every day. It was so obvious The State's argument & presentation was lacking. Yes they worked with what they had but they didn't go after The Defense witnesses hard enough in my opinion.The State threw in Manslaughter at the 11th hour as a safety-net and didn't explain it to the Jurors...I'm not saying The State did a BAD job but they could have countered Blow for Blow with The Defense had they tried harder.

We talked about The Zimmerman case in this Forum BEFORE it went to trial and most of us agreed he'd get off. I think most Black Folks felt the same way. There's no REAL shock, just disappointment because a Grown man Profiled & stalked a teenager.

The FIRST EVER 6 Female Jurors did what they were selected to do.. A Reporter stated when they walked into the Court room last night they didn't look at George and when they left they STILL did not look at him. George is VERY, very, very FORTUNATE the 6 women FOLLOWED instructions, stuck with the evidence and the LAW. Like so many others have said sometimes a "Not Guilty' verdict does NOT mean the jurors felt the defendant was "innocent". We'll know more when & if the Jurors talk to the Press..

The Defence was AWESOME all 5 weeks of the trial. They are Today's Dream-Team...I felt they were Smug & hateful during the Victory Press conference..They WON and still came across as MAD as Hell...Don West kept saying "This WOULD have been terrible had george been found gulity!"...get over it, you WON ...Was HE in shock that he won?

Something very interesting..Several years ago George was charged then CLEARED of assaulting an undercover Law officer and last night he was cleared of Shooting a kid while playing Cop.....So that's 2 for 2...He's untouchable..

Will George Follow in O.J.'s foot-steps and end up getting into more trouble years from now? We'll have to wait and see...O.J. is a SERIOUS "mental' case and I have ALWAYS believed George is also Fucked up in the head...George is much younger than O.J. was back in the 90's and he could turn his Fame into something positive if he chooses to.

And NBC might as well settle with George out of court cuz Mark O'mara is Brilliant & Ferocious and will DRAIN them in a court room...

[rareboy]

What the fuck?

[kallipolis]

The Defence was AWESOME all 5 weeks of the trial. They are Today's Dream-Team...

Agreed......................

[White Eagle]

Zimmy is gonna have to watch his back for the rest of his life!

[rareboy]

So does this square things up for the OJ verdict?

[lambdaboy]

Disgusting decision but understandable for the most racist country on earth!

[darden]

not to defend an asshole like Zimmerman, but from the sound of it, in the "Florida mom" case, nearly all physical evidence and eye-witness testimony contradicted her story.

she had an encounter with her ex-husband, left the scene, and then returned back with a gun (which is why the "stand your ground" law didn't apply to her)

[Benvolio]

Disgusting decision but understandable for the most racist country on earth!

Remember, the defendant is also a member of a racial minority. Liberals, who pride themselves in seeing racism everywhere, have tred to characterize this as a white vs black drama, but it is not that simple.

[T-Rexx]

It's almost as if the criminal justice system is stacked against black people!

[racer2438]

while there are and will be millions of unanswered questions, doubts, opinions, politics, race, as to what really happened.

I have many doubts my self that this was so wrong to be found not guilty.

We can not forget the evidence in the case, by both sides. One side had more and or raised enough doubt to not convict. They just need 1 little bit of doubt was all it took. The prosecutor office did not present a strong enough case, they needed to do a better job and did not, giving the upper hand of doubt to the defense, am I saying that's right--NO but that's what it takes to win a not guilty---enough doubt and they did.

This does not mean it's right(by me) but his peers (jury) did their job under the law, with evidence provided. Was it right ( not to me)

we'd all expect our peers(jury) to do the right thing if it were one of us also.

This legal system needs major reform, and only we the people can help make some changes, by voting, pressuring our representatives to push these changes through.

In the end both families have lost, mainly Martin's side.

Both he and Zimm's were wrong in there actions, both paid a price.. a really big one.

Zimm will be forever shadowed and will never live safely .

Martin, please RIP. somehow somewhere justice will come.

We all hear of these cases that go south thinking they will be found guilty... but if we don't get involved in the jury system albeit not perfect at all, we should also not bitch about it cuz it's up to us as free people in the great country to help make these changes.

But now come the book deals, guest show appearances, and lets not forget the civil suit that is just around the corner, which he will be found guilty of, cuz the level of proof is much lower...Just ask Oj.

even though this country has many things to fix, it's still a great place, and by far better than most other countries.

[Benvolio]

It's almost as if the criminal justice system is stacked against black people!

Like OJ? .......

[mbamike]

It's almost as if the criminal justice system is stacked against black people!

Isn't Zimmerman bi-racial? I don't see this as a black-white race issue. IMO, the fault is Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law.

[Ninja108]

No surprises here. This case was overcharged on purpose so when the lesser charges came up,the jury was going to be more likely to vote not guilty on those as well.

[kallipolis]

No surprises here. This case was overcharged on purpose so when the lesser charges came up,the jury was going to be more likely to vote not guilty on those as well.

A noteworthy observation not lost on various human rights groups speculating that the law "stand your ground" was much more important to protect than convicting a Latino of killing a black teen.

[JayHawk]

The case was overcharged because of media pressure. The Chief of Police recommended not pursuing charges, his lead investigator at the scene stated the most it could be was man slaughter. But it was in the public eye so they acted differently than they normally would.

Quite an odd thing, the misinformation. You see people in this thread who are completely misinformed about the actual details of the case. First off, they didn't use stand your ground as a defense. It is irrelevant. Second, GZ was not told to 'not leave his truck', he was already following TM and when told not to follow tried to depart the area. That is when the confrontation occurred. Third, this has nothing to do with Florida per se, trial lawyers and prosecutors across the country indicated they did not have the evidence for Murder two.

The only other lack of information travesty I would point out is that the internet MEME of GZ going free while the "Mom" gets jail time gives ZERO background or perspective. I would actually get some facts before passing judgement.

This is a travesty no doubt. I think the worst travesty is that if it was two black and one ended up dead we would pay ZERO attention to it. Just google 'Murder' and 'Chicago' and ask yourself how many of those cases received any attention. If you doubt me, that is. If you don't have time to review hundreds of murders try seventy by googling "Murder" "Kansas City"

[JayHawk]

A noteworthy observation not lost on various human rights groups speculating that the law "stand your ground" was much more important to protect than convicting a Latino of killing a black teen.

The entire trial was televised.... please point to the portion where stand your ground is evoked as a defense. I'll wait.

[Special K]

Is it just me or is there something seriously wrong with America's legal system? I mean first there was O.J. Simpson, then there was Casey Anthony, and now George Zimmerman, when will justice be served for the victims of these heinous murderers?

[kallipolis]

The entire trial was televised.... please point to the portion where stand your ground is evoked as a defense. I'll wait.

I'll take your word that this trial was never about stand your ground....on second thoughts I won't.

[Stardreamer]

Neither Stand Your Ground or Race were factors in the trial. Not even in the profiling argument. The state simply charged that Zimmerman profiled Martin as a 'criminal'. I was actually rather impressed by that, it took the emotional elements out of it and focused on the issue.

[JayHawk]

I'll take your word that this trial was never about stand your ground....on second thoughts I won't.

Read the fucking court case... or just keep arguing in ignorance

[Stardreamer]

I'll take your word that this trial was never about stand your ground....on second thoughts I won't.

Stand your Ground was never raised but the Defense did take the position that Zimmerman acted in self defense so in a way it is. But Stand your Ground and Self Defense are not the same thing only co-related.

The defendant is innocent until PROVEN guilty in our system. The defense never had to prove that Zimmerman needed to 'stand his ground' they simply needed to show that the state's case raised a 'reasonable' doubt. To prove their case the state needed to:

1. Show that Zimmerman started the fight. They was impossible since the available evidence could not show who started it.

2. Show that Zimmerman pursued Martin with malice and intent to kill him (Murder 2). The only evidence they really had was a couple of swear words and speculation about his desire to be a cop. There was enough grayness and counter evidence to make both these points fall within reasonable doubt.

3. That Zimmerman had no reason to fear for his life when he used deadly force. Quite frankly the simple fact that there was a fight and that Zimmerman was injured during it made this impossible to prove. Once the expert testified that his injuries 'could' have occurred as a result of striking the concrete and that such an impact no matter how minor was LIKELY to have caused a concussion, the idea that Zimmerman could not have perceived his life being in danger even if it wasn't was unprovable.

[cynicus]

Though the mills of God grind slowly;
Yet they grind exceeding small;
Though with patience he stands waiting,
With exactness grinds he all.

[T-Rexx]

Like OJ? .......

Excuse me. I should have said poor black people.

[frankfrank]

^ and...

Like OJ? .......

OJ was rich enough to buy a "Get Out of Jail Free" card in 1995. Most blacks cannot buy this card.

However, OJ's criminality came back to bite him in the ass in Las Vegas a few years later, with unrelated crimes.

[versa39]

florida and texas.... both bush controlled.....stupidity running rampant , enough said

[JackinSea]

Remember, the defendant is also a member of a racial minority. Liberals, who pride themselves in seeing racism everywhere, have tred to characterize this as a white vs black drama, but it is not that simple.

It seems to me that this has been as much about White Liberal "outrage" as much as non-white resentment.

[bike10]

Just like OJ walked away free so does Zimmermann walk away free.

[tigerfan482]

So if Trayvon Martin had been carrying a gun and had shot and killed George Zimmerman because he was some strange guy with a weapon pursuing him, would the verdict have been the same?

[darden]

So if Trayvon Martin had been carrying a gun and had shot and killed George Zimmerman because he was some strange guy with a weapon pursuing him, would the verdict have been the same?

fill in the blank answer with whatever your own racial prejudices dictate.

[JayHawk]

So if Trayvon Martin had been carrying a gun and had shot and killed George Zimmerman because he was some strange guy with a weapon pursuing him, would the verdict have been the same?

fill in the blank answer with whatever your own racial prejudices dictate.

I am pretty sure that has already been answered... and on the same day. Florida is quite efficient at the law if not at elections.

[darden]

I am pretty sure that has already been answered... and on the same day. Florida is quite efficient at the law if not at elections.

"warning shots" at about body-level, next to 2 kids, after leaving the scene and returning with a gun. /facepalm

[JayHawk]

Is that the story... I mentioned above or on facebook that using her without the details could go astray... lol

[tigerfan482]

fill in the blank answer with whatever your own racial prejudices dictate.

It has nothing to do with race. At what point is it self defense? Does shooting someone who is following you and has a firearm self-defense? What if it was a female that Zimmerman was following and she shot him because she felt threatened? Or what if the female just tasered him? Would he be legally able to shoot her in self defense? Where is the line drawn because it sure isn't in the law?

[Stardreamer]

So if Trayvon Martin had been carrying a gun and had shot and killed George Zimmerman because he was some strange guy with a weapon pursuing him, would the verdict have been the same?

Depends, if it can be reasonably shown that Martin had reason to fear for his life then yes. That would take more than just that he was being followed.

[darden]

Is that the story... I mentioned above or on facebook that using her without the details could go astray... lol

she was offered a plea bargain of 3 years, but turned it down to argue self-defense even though it seems like all evidence and eye-witness testimony contradicted her story.

the 20 year sentence was because of Florida mandatory-minimum laws, which I'll be the first to say are stupid, should be illegal, and probably largely only exist because of politicians wanting to seem tough on crime for some reelection campaign or another.

[Stardreamer]

It has nothing to do with race. At what point is it self defense? Does shooting someone who is following you and has a firearm self-defense?

The point at which a reasonable person could perceive that the situation posed an immediate threat to life or serious bodily injury.

What if it was a female that Zimmerman was following and she shot him because she felt threatened?

Gender makes no difference. If she could reasonably perceive that her life was in immediate danger, then she could defend herself. Note that he is simply following her does not constitute a reasonable threat. He would have to be doing something else to add to the perception.

Or what if the female just tasered him? Would he be legally able to shoot her in self defense?

It is not very likely he could have drawn and fired his weapon under those circumstances. As to whether he could perceive it as a threat to life, it is an assault and battery but the circumstances and how he perceived them would be critical to making that determination. Best answer I can give is it depends on the situation.

Where is the line drawn because it sure isn't in the law?

If you bother to research it, it is quite clear in the law. Like all things in life there will be some grey issues around the edges but the law is quite clear and fully in keeping with the natural right of self-defense. Whether a person has a gun or doesn't have a gun doesn't alter that.

[HenryReardon]

"Poor little innocent Treyvon Martin"
The guy was neither poor, nor quite so innocent, nor for that matter, little.
The media shows us pictures of 12-year-old Treyvon, but the kid was 17, nearly 6'2", and weight 175.

http://blunttrama.ning.com/profiles/...hoto-do-you-kn

[CowboyBob]

"Poor little innocent Treyvon Martin"
The guy was neither poor, nor quite so innocent, nor for that matter, little.
The media shows us pictures of 12-year-old Treyvon, but the kid was 17, nearly 6'2", and weight 175.

http://blunttrama.ning.com/profiles/...hoto-do-you-kn

Yeah, you're right.

He deserved to die. After all, he "was neither poor, nor quite so innocent, nor for that matter, little."

Too bad Zimmerman was inconvenienced by doing the world a favor.

*sheesh*

[frankfrank]

Disgusting decision but understandable for the most racist country on earth!

Are you SURE? There are a lot of other countries in the world. There have to be at least one or two that are more racist. Persecution of the Kurds, perhaps? (Does "racist" count if it's a pogrom against ethnicities who are actually part of the same "race," such as what happened in Rwanda in 1994?)

So if Trayvon Martin had been carrying a gun and had shot and killed George Zimmerman because he was some strange guy with a weapon pursuing him, would the verdict have been the same?

Pretty easy question to answer, I think. That locality in Florida (though, not so much, nearby Orlando) is still solidly "the South."

...mandatory-minimum laws...should be illegal, and probably largely only exist because of politicians wanting to seem tough on crime for some reelection campaign or another.

We CERTAINLY know that's what happened to get those laws on the books in California, as well as the Rockefeller drug laws.