Grero: Straight Men Are NOT Born That Way

[andy12]

A few years ago, I wondered about the lack of masculine gay men. I did not get too many leads in that thread so I decided to look further.

I delved into the ancient Greco-Roman world and found some interesting facts. In some Greek cities, having sex with another guy was expected in order to become a fully masculine man. And of the first twenty Roman emperors, eighteen (90%!) were recorded to have had sex with other men. Yet today, same-sex sex is seen as effeminate and only for a small part of the population. But if homosexuality is something one is born with (as the science says) how come men were so much more sexually flexible?

The conclusion I've reached is that gay men are indeed born that way. On the other hand, it seems straight men are made that way by culture, or rather that without our homophobic culture straight men would essentially be bisexual... or grero. If true, this would be a huge rethinking of how we look at sexual orientation. (This would explain the "straight guy having sex with men" phenomenon so often encountered on here and elsewhere.)

I'm certainly not the first person to claim this. We've all heard that line that men are all bisexuals. But no one has ever made an attempt to explain how this could be even remotely possible given the obvious counter-evidence. Until now...

Grero is for men who don't feel different from most men but may have wondered why other men don't like other men. If that's the case, this book is a must read. If you are interested in more details, read the book or listen to the audiobook. Both are available for four easy payments of $0: I want to get it out there and get a conversation started.

If you have any questions about the specifics in the book, I'm more than happy to answer.

[csb999]

We will label it "having sex with" but the phenomenon is truthfully described as having or attempting to have an orgasm NOT reproduction verifiably in the presence of someone or something else . In terms of simple numbers human sexuality - sexual behaviour is always hundreds or thousands of times solo in excess of situations even possibly resulting in reproduction - all masturbation , any female sexual activity after menopause . We have long-established basically religious laws restricting this person or thing . Describing human sexuality in this way .by its ocassional possible object is fairly meaningless and usually incorrect . We are orgasmic period . Sometimes others are involved .

[zebec847]

Thank you for posting this fascinating and entertaining study. I haven't yet finished it but will do so soon. As someone who watches a lot of (mostly straight) porn I have noticed that interviews with many of the eastern bloc lads reveals that they have few hangups about sexuality. Many who actually prefer women have no problem in having sex with other men for money. The lack of cultural taboos gives them a much greater freedom of expression. I think it is also true that when allowed to experience sex as just sex many have discovered that someone of the same sex has a better understanding of what makes it enjoyable.

[andy12]

We will label it "having sex with" but the phenomenon is truthfully described as having or attempting to have an orgasm NOT reproduction verifiably in the presence of someone or something else . In terms of simple numbers human sexuality - sexual behaviour is always hundreds or thousands of times solo in excess of situations even possibly resulting in reproduction - all masturbation , any female sexual activity after menopause . We have long-established basically religious laws restricting this person or thing . Describing human sexuality in this way .by its ocassional possible object is fairly meaningless and usually incorrect . We are orgasmic period . Sometimes others are involved .

Yeah, and it doesn't get any more homosexual (ie. same) than masturbation. But as soon as it's with another guy, it's totally different and shame enters. I wonder how much time it will take for people to see these obvious contradictions. "I like my dick, but I cannot like other dicks and only those with vaginas can like mine." What complete nonsense.

I remember in high school there was a picture passed around featuring two people. One, a male-to-female transsexual; the other, a female-to-male transsexual. So basically a guy with a pussy and feminine woman with boobs and a dick. The question was, "Pick one to have sex with." That raises the whole split between sex and gender. If you want the pussy, you want a hairy guy. If you want the woman, you want a dick. It shows how the hetero-homo dichotomy breaks apart at the slightest touch.

[jdbadboy]

I've noticed that these alternatives to being gay, the g0y, the androphiles, and now this grero, basically promise sex with straight guys.

Yes ambercrombie and fitch ads are hot but calling yourself something besides gay won't make them any more real. Pipe dream sexuality.

[Telstra]

[andy12]

I've noticed that these alternatives to being gay, the g0y, the androphiles, and now this grero, basically promise sex with straight guys.

A few points:

1. Look, it's completely unfair to make judgments about a book you haven't read. This may seem like the same old tired bullshit, but it's not. For one, I criticize both in Chapter 12. Androphilia is quite anti-gay and seeks to "cure" gays with more masculinity. That's not going to work. The author basically bullies gay men but when it comes to questioning exclusive heterosexuality, he's pretty much silent. (In fact, it was Androphilia's shortcomings that directly lead to me to write this book.) G0ys do hint at a broader male sexuality but they too are anti-gay and obsessed with anal sex (doth protest too much??).

2. I cannot possibly be promising sex with straight guys because my conclusion is that there really aren't any straight guys. Most men, looking at the evidence, have a sort of bisexual potential that our homophobic culture suppresses.

Yes ambercrombie and fitch ads are hot but calling yourself something besides gay won't make them any more real. Pipe dream sexuality.

Instead of a pipe dream, sex between most men was a reality before Christianity and outside of the West in many cultures.

[JustMe5]

A few years ago, I wondered about the lack of masculine gay men. I did not get too many leads in that thread so I decided to look further.

I just read your first post in that thread and I can totally relate to what you wrote. I myself wonder where are all the MEN? And it seems like a lot of "masculine" gay men out there are almost like a caricature of masculinity. It's a perfectly legitimate concern. But of course, in this forum it's simply not PC to talk about things like that.

[jdbadboy]

I just read your first post in that thread and I can totally relate to what you wrote. I myself wonder where are all the MEN? And it seems like a lot of "masculine" gay men out there are almost like a caricature of masculinity. It's a perfectly legitimate concern. But of course, in this forum it's simply not PC to talk about things like that.

I find that straight men can also be a caricature of masculinity. Aren't "man caves", "man-cations" , and a tourette's like use of the words dude and bro a bit much? Real masculinity isn't a bunch of catch phrases and accessories. I think that is gay men and straight men (and all the fellows in between) would just relax and be themselves we'd end up being more alike than different.

[andy12]

Thank you for posting this fascinating and entertaining study. I haven't yet finished it but will do so soon. As someone who watches a lot of (mostly straight) porn I have noticed that interviews with many of the eastern bloc lads reveals that they have few hangups about sexuality. Many who actually prefer women have no problem in having sex with other men for money. The lack of cultural taboos gives them a much greater freedom of expression. I think it is also true that when allowed to experience sex as just sex many have discovered that someone of the same sex has a better understanding of what makes it enjoyable.

Let me know what you think when you do finish... Chapter 8 quotes Bel Ami and other porn stuff.

[bankside]

Ahh, there you are! I remember you..

[Singularity]

I like this point of view. Will have a read of it later tonight.

I think, ever since we created this sub-cultural LGBT community a few decades ago, labels have become more relevant than ever. I don't remember when exactly, but the term homosexuality is not a century old and it was quite common back then and before for men to have a go at each other if they knew what places to look for. You didn't live openly gay, but you still managed to find the right men to live out those urges behind closed doors and the morality police. I think there's a book on homosexual culture in Victorian times out there.

Having said that, I still think that no matter where *I* go I'll only ever be surrounded by guys who will never have the urge or desire to have sex with other men. Unless I am so bad at the "social code" that comes with it (i.e. how do you go from two dude-bros hanging out to them having sex?). In away, in some social groups and gatherings it sometimes feels like the minute you're out and proud, you're not interesting anymore for all the curious guys around you. You're practically forced to go to gay bars and clubs and hang out with gay groups and cliques to find someone you can only hope is interested in you, and which I personally find very limiting and insulting compared to "the rest".

This is why I believe the whole curious/down-low approach to gay sex is more appealing and mentally satisfying to most men and why they all tend to identify themselves as straight just to fulfill their own fantasies of having sex with another straight (masculine) man. Just go on Craigslist and you can find all kinds of straight/bi/curious men who are looking for other straight/bi/curious men *only*, all masculine and straight-acting, of course.

[mikey3000]

This looks like a great read. Thanks. Me start reading tonight. This fits my belief that very few people are 100% srtaight or gay. No need for labels either, how about just sexual.

[ElmosToe]

^^Exactly.

[jm2012]

This has been a fascinating read and a subject that I had heard about before but never found something written as extensive as your book. I most likely fall under the gay gender but definitely have bisexual tendencies that I have yet to experiment with further, but I have always thought that men identifying as straight could have the ability to have sex with men and not necessarily be bisexual or gay. I hope that this book opens the dialogue to further discussion. It's a subject that should be studied more.

[andy12]

Having said that, I still think that no matter where *I* go I'll only ever be surrounded by guys who will never have the urge or desire to have sex with other men. Unless I am so bad at the "social code" that comes with it (i.e. how do you go from two dude-bros hanging out to them having sex?). In away, in some social groups and gatherings it sometimes feels like the minute you're out and proud, you're not interesting anymore for all the curious guys around you. You're practically forced to go to gay bars and clubs and hang out with gay groups and cliques to find someone you can only hope is interested in you, and which I personally find very limiting and insulting compared to "the rest".

This is why I believe the whole curious/down-low approach to gay sex is more appealing and mentally satisfying to most men and why they all tend to identify themselves as straight just to fulfill their own fantasies of having sex with another straight (masculine) man. Just go on Craigslist and you can find all kinds of straight/bi/curious men who are looking for other straight/bi/curious men *only*, all masculine and straight-acting, of course.

You're not alone in your inability to find others like this If anything like grero existed before, there wouldn't be a need for it now or for men to be down-low.

[andy12]

This looks like a great read. Thanks. Me start reading tonight. This fits my belief that very few people are 100% srtaight or gay. No need for labels either, how about just sexual.

I wish we were at a stage where there wasn't a need for labels. Well, even in a more honest and self-aware society, people will still have their peculiar tastes and labels are a good shorthand for that. Also, it's hard to go against culture (as my attempt with grero is) without a quick word.

[bankside]

I think the argument I had with your pov back in the day was that you seemed to categorize gender based on idealized and unreal gender categories. Sort of a men are from mars, women are from venus thing, that just seemed like bunk.

Research:
https://machineslikeus.com/news/men-...earth/page/0/1

So some subtle gender trends, but not the categories you seem to want. I don't think gayness is a different gender.

[andy12]

I think the argument I had with your pov back in the day was that you seemed to categorize gender based on idealized and unreal gender categories. Sort of a men are from mars, women are from venus thing, that just seemed like bunk.

Research:
https://machineslikeus.com/news/men-...earth/page/0/1

So some subtle gender trends, but not the categories you seem to want. I don't think gayness is a different gender.

Well, I suppose this boils down to the personal feel of it. When I was in high school, a good majority of gays were masculine. Gay bars and other gay areas, it's like that tumbleweed rolling through the desert. How good is your gaydar ?

[ElmosToe]

One thing that irks me is how most in society equate masculinity and being straight as one and the same.

So you're only masculine if you're 'straight'... (far from reality)
I can use myself as evidence of that load of BS not being true.

btw Andy,
you are a damn good looking DUDE.

[Telstra]

Is this why middle eastern men Mediterranean men always kiss each other when greeting ?

[jdbadboy]

One thing that irks me is how most in society equate masculinity and being straight as one and the same.

So you're only masculine if you're 'straight'... (far from reality)
I can use myself as evidence of that load of BS not being true.

btw Andy,
you are a damn good looking DUDE.

Yes Gore Vidal was a beautiful young man.

[ElmosToe]

^ppssstt, not referring to his avatar...

[andy12]

One thing that irks me is how most in society equate masculinity and being straight as one and the same.

So you're only masculine if you're 'straight'... (far from reality)
I can use myself as evidence of that load of BS not being true.

btw Andy,
you are a damn good looking DUDE.

Thank you very much.

[bankside]

I read that wall of text. While I do believe you're right that most people are not heterosexual, and I'm prepared to ditch "homo" and "hetero" as opposites, I still think you're fundamentally out to lunch on trying to redefine contemporary gayness as essentially some kind of gender.

I actually think Kinsey fucked up by putting gay and straight at opposite ends of a scale such that you have to be less of one to be more of the other. We'd be far better putting attraction to men on one scale, and attraction to women on another.

If this scale were a sound board in a recording studio, men and women would be on different levers.

BTW, that's not you stepping out of the shower on Amazon. I'm pretty sure that's a figure from the hungarian forint circa late 80s.

[jmadaf]

I can't talk about everybody only myself. Ever since I was a boy I liked other boys, it seems everything they liked I did to. When I enter'd puberty, being sexual with boys was natural. But it was told that was wrong, and if you did it had to be a secret. And to have a famiy you needed women. So being with women didn't come natural, it was harder for me. But I did it and I was bi, but I still wanted men more. And the more fem, the more I wanted them, but I have been with masculine too.

[ElmosToe]

BTW, that's not you stepping out of the shower on Amazon. I'm pretty sure that's a figure from the hungarian forint circa late 80s.

Am I missing something here? His his book is on Amazon? I didn't see it there.

[bankside]

Am I missing something here? His his book is on Amazon? I didn't see it there.

I'm sure I saw it earlier this week but if I go into my history it 404's now. Anyway same image on the site….
yeah, it's this guy:

Attachment 958552

[ElmosToe]

^oh, ok, now it makes sense.

From watching his you tube videos on his site, he's a good looking guy.

[andy12]

I read that wall of text. While I do believe you're right that most people are not heterosexual, and I'm prepared to ditch "homo" and "hetero" as opposites, I still think you're fundamentally out to lunch on trying to redefine contemporary gayness as essentially some kind of gender.

I actually think Kinsey fucked up by putting gay and straight at opposite ends of a scale such that you have to be less of one to be more of the other. We'd be far better putting attraction to men on one scale, and attraction to women on another.

If this scale were a sound board in a recording studio, men and women would be on different levers.

That's another way of looking at it. The binary penis-vagina scale is too limited and stealthily accepts Christianity's premise that procreation is the singular concern of sex so anything different is good.

BTW, that's not you stepping out of the shower on Amazon. I'm pretty sure that's a figure from the hungarian forint circa late 80s.

Am I missing something here? His his book is on Amazon? I didn't see it there.

HAHA: https://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profil...a_your_profile

The only hard copy at this point is the PDF printed out.