whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

[ludolfo]

I am quite intrigued how come the gay online community forum here to do with religion and spirituality seems to be mainly obsessed with the Christian myth, as if to suggest that Christianity invented religion and spirituality.

I would just like to explore why. Of course we in the western world are permeated with this myth since being little, and we ALL have 'Christian' names, so even though generally there is an acceptance we have moved on away from this age of religion and now exist in the 'real' world of scientific materialism that willy-nilly all the Christian principles and values remain, some unconsciously.

It's quite strange how the book the Bible can have had so much influence over so many over the generations isn't it. EVEN though for many gay people we have had to suffer great abuse from believers in this book for a long long time YET the threads in this section seem devoted to this religion as though it has a patent on religion, spirituality, and philosophy.

What are gay people here feeling about this is my question?

[palbert]

Christianity as a religion is a function of the extent of the Roman Empire. Beyond that extent it is marginalized or corrupted into obscuring local religious beliefs.

It is an enduring myth because it is all you're taught.

[Gros Morne Guy]

Palbert,
Christianity's bounds, from its beginnings, far exceeded those of the Roman Empire. India has had a vibrant Christian church since the first century. Armenia was the first nation to make Christianity its official religion. After Constantine legalized Christianity in the Empire, there were vibrant non-imperial churches in Ethiopia, Nubia, Assyria (modern Iraq), Georgia, Persia, and China (which, along with the Coptic Church in Egypt, broke communion with the imperial church in 451), as well as the Aryan church which was the dominant religion of the Goths and Vandals threatening the Empire from the north. While some of these churches fell to politics and the rise of Islam, the Armenian, Coptic (over 15% of the population of Egypt) and Ethiopian churches are quite strong. And since the final fall of the Roman Empire to the Ottomans in 1453, minority churches have survived in the Muslim lands of the East, as did suppressed churches in the Soviet empire and communist China.

Why has the Jewish "myth" endured so long? Except for the short period of Solomon's reign, it was never the religion of a great and powerful nation. Indeed, the Jewish nation suffered repeated destruction and dispersal. The gods of Israel's more powerful neighbors, Ra of Egypt, Marduk of Babylon, Dagon of the Philistines, Zeus of ancient Greece, are consigned to the history books, but the praise of YHWH still resounds. I think Judaism has endured because it has given the Jewish people (and others) hope, a sense of identity, and a way of life for 3 millenia, and continues to do so.

So too with Christianity. It would not have endured, even with the support of kings and emporers, unless people found in it meaning, sustenance, and hope.

As to gay Christians, I think you will find most of us have a deeper and more real faith than the nominal Christians who use a few out-of-context biblical passages to support their own prejudice, hatred and insecurity.

[Mariatenebre]

It is all due to the fact that Christianity is not a myth. Look under all the bad that has happened through-out History and you will come to see all the Good that Christianity has brought into the world. It is also due to God coming to us in the form of Jesus Christ, who is the WORD of God. Read the Lives of the Saints through History. Read deep into the why and how the Church stood the test of time.

Christianity is a myth. The Bible is not a historical document and Christianity for the most part has brought more evil then good. It has brough scientific ignorance, sexism, racism, homophobia, barbarity, inherited guilt and denial of human dignity. Christianity and Islam have higher body counts then any other religion out there.

As to why gays tend to obsess over Christianity it is simple. It is because they were indoctrinated into this tripe and instead of growing a pair and leaving this cult they choose to wallow in a cult that hates them. [Text: Removed]

Much of what I know, I had to learn and study on my own because of serious discrepancies in the teachings in CCD since I was a kid in the 1970's (I was born 1968), as in too many errors were being taught. I studied on my own as an adult, and what I learned was very different from what I was taught in CCD while in Elementary School. So, with experiences in Catholicism since....I can say that it isn't a Myth at all.

Personal experience does not qualify as evidence. Plus all of the mainstream scientists, psychologists, historians and anthropologists would disagree with you about Christianity not being a myth.

Palbert,
Christianity's bounds, from its beginnings, far exceeded those of the Roman Empire. India has had a vibrant Christian church since the first century. Armenia was the first nation to make Christianity its official religion. After Constantine legalized Christianity in the Empire, there were vibrant non-imperial churches in Ethiopia, Nubia, Assyria (modern Iraq), Georgia, Persia, and China (which, along with the Coptic Church in Egypt, broke communion with the imperial church in 451), as well as the Aryan church which was the dominant religion of the Goths and Vandals threatening the Empire from the north. While some of these churches fell to politics and the rise of Islam, the Armenian, Coptic (over 15% of the population of Egypt) and Ethiopian churches are quite strong. And since the final fall of the Roman Empire to the Ottomans in 1453, minority churches have survived in the Muslim lands of the East, as did suppressed churches in the Soviet empire and communist China.

Why has the Jewish "myth" endured so long? Except for the short period of Solomon's reign, it was never the religion of a great and powerful nation. Indeed, the Jewish nation suffered repeated destruction and dispersal. The gods of Israel's more powerful neighbors, Ra of Egypt, Marduk of Babylon, Dagon of the Philistines, Zeus of ancient Greece, are consigned to the history books, but the praise of YHWH still resounds. I think Judaism has endured because it has given the Jewish people (and others) hope, a sense of identity, and a way of life for 3 millenia, and continues to do so.

So too with Christianity. It would not have endured, even with the support of kings and emporers, unless people found in it meaning, sustenance, and hope.

As to gay Christians, I think you will find most of us have a deeper and more real faith than the nominal Christians who use a few out-of-context biblical passages to support their own prejudice, hatred and insecurity.

The Abrahamic religions have survived for one reason alone. It is because they were better at killing and pillaging other people and had no problem with forced conversions. These religions have mainly spread by the sword.

[zoltanspawn]

I am quite intrigued how come the gay online community forum here to do with religion and spirituality seems to be mainly obsessed with the Christian myth, as if to suggest that Christianity invented religion and spirituality.

I would just like to explore why. Of course we in the western world are permeated with this myth since being little, and we ALL have 'Christian' names, so even though generally there is an acceptance we have moved on away from this age of religion and now exist in the 'real' world of scientific materialism that willy-nilly all the Christian principles and values remain, some unconsciously.

Christianity has no more a special magnetic pull on its adherents than most other religions. The membership of JUB is composed largely of people from historically Christian nations. If it were made up of people from Sri Lanka, Japan or Morocco, for instance, the community wouldn't be disposed to a majority of christian threads.

I'm very unsurprised that most people endorse, reject and interpret through the idioms they're most familiar with. It would seem much stranger to me if lots of us freely moved beyond the culture and history with which we are best acquainted.

[ludolfo]

I think that Christian belief is a mythology like others but has pretended to be historical, and that is the problem. Believers have been forced to literally believe there actually was a Jesus of Nazareth who was the only Son of God, and who dies for our sins and was resurrected physically and ascended to heaven to be with his Father. Now to me that sounds like a mythology and not actual history, but that is what they have forc3e fed people down the generations, and people have been jailed, tortured and murdered for questioning this myth, and even here at this forum which celebrates all forms of sexuality, I have got told off by some here for DARING to call Christianity a myth so this pressure not to is still surviving as of January 2013...!!

[zoltanspawn]

I don't have the sense that in the history of Christianity there has been an unchanging bias in favor of a historical understanding of Christian stories. Rather, I tend to think that in our current era we, as a whole civilization, value factuality first and foremost; Christians have become asinine literalists and partisans as a side-effect of our larger notion of truth.

[Rickrock]

MikeyLove, just want to say that not everyone is against you or against the Catholic Church. You're not alone. I don't have answers for most of their arguements, but I do have faith. Peace to you.

[zoltanspawn]

MikeyLove, just want to say that not everyone is against you or against the Catholic Church. You're not alone. I don't have answers for most of their arguements, but I do have faith. Peace to you.

MikeyLove has stated his adherence to the catholic dogma that homosexuality is 'objectively disordered.' This idea is used to deny civil rights to gay people; it renders us a sub-class of humans and its repercussions include suicide, despair and hate. Although I also wish MikeyLove happiness and fulfillment, I think it's important to condemn the official hatred the catholic church espouses.

[bankside]

I am quite intrigued how come the gay online community forum here to do with religion and spirituality seems to be mainly obsessed with the Christian myth, as if to suggest that Christianity invented religion and spirituality.

I would just like to explore why. Of course we in the western world are permeated with this myth since being little, and we ALL have 'Christian' names, so even though generally there is an acceptance we have moved on away from this age of religion and now exist in the 'real' world of scientific materialism that willy-nilly all the Christian principles and values remain, some unconsciously.

It's quite strange how the book the Bible can have had so much influence over so many over the generations isn't it. EVEN though for many gay people we have had to suffer great abuse from believers in this book for a long long time YET the threads in this section seem devoted to this religion as though it has a patent on religion, spirituality, and philosophy.

What are gay people here feeling about this is my question?

Ludolfo, so many posters here are American and even though I live next to the states, until the internet and until this forum I rarely had the opportunity to interact with them. I have enjoyed getting to know my neighbours, but I too am astonished by the salience of Christianity to Americans, including the gay ones. It just doesn't figure into the everyday lives of people elsewhere to nearly the same degree. I don't think you're discovering a gay phenomenon, but a gay American phenomenon.

[Mariatenebre]

MikeyLove, just want to say that not everyone is against you or against the Catholic Church. You're not alone. I don't have answers for most of their arguements, but I do have faith. Peace to you.

MikeyLove has said that homosexulity is "objectively disordered" and caused by original sin aka inherited guilt when science shows it is caused by nature. He has also said that gays should be celibate and in order to be good Catholics must hate their sexuality and fight against it.

Do you believe in this self hating Abrahamic claptrap as well?

[Laufey]

Well two main reasons:

1. Christianity is the biggest religion in the world and in the western world majority of the people are Christians.

2. No one thing has killed as many people as Christianity. Most countries didn't choose to adopt it they were forced to.

It's ridiculous that a third of the world population worships a magician who died 2000 years ago.

[bankside]

Fighting against normal healthy homosexual traits is not an example of loving yourself, which is what the Catholic Church preaches. It tells people that to love themselves they must try to overcome and suppress their natural healthy homosexuality and allow their sexuality to wither into hollow catholic chasteness. That is not a theology of self love, it is a cruel and futile barbaric hateful doctrine, and the Catholic Church should be condemned for it. A person who recognises a same sex attraction should be free to explore it with another adult without any shame, guilt or interference imposed by the church. But the church does not know its place and it just shoves pain and lost opportunity down the throats of people who are often too afraid to break their dependency on the church and reject such monstrous nonsense. Gay is good. Being gay with someone is also good. No disorder, no sin, no shame.

[Rickrock]

Mariatenebre, thank you for your question. I am not sure what "objectively disordered" means, but I believe that homosexuality is most likely caused by nature and not chosen by those individuals. I am willing to believe that sexual activity outside of marriage is usually wrong, but homosexual activity is no worse than heterosexual activity. Even if sexual activity is usually wrong outside of marriage, in our culture it is difficult to believe that it is a serious error between consenting adults, but more of a lesser sin. Humankind has many human tendancies which we must learn to control, such as greed and sex among many others, and we must learn to direct these tendancies in constructive directions. Greed is probably a worse problem than sex. I believe in God and believe that the basic beliefs and ideaology of the Catholic Church is the closest to God's will, but humankind sometimes is misguided in carrying it out and I have some disagreements with some Catholic policies. I do believe that abortion is murder, but we do allow murder in wartime and do execute criminals. If we do stop abortions, it would be wrong to do that without providing economic and emotional support support to mothers and children, such as, and including, starting with free healthcare to children from pre-birth through the age of 19 as well as financial support.

[FirmaFan]

Maria, stick your nose in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and read #2357-2359. FYI, I am not self-hating, as everyone around me knows all about me, and understands where I am coming from. [Quoted Text: Removed] I will put you on my prayer list.

Going around saying that every single human being, yourself included, is guilty of original sin is self-hating.

[CowboyBob]

OMG, do I even want to get into this?

People adhere to this ancient religion which worships virgin births, resurrections and a blood sacrifice because they're been indoctrinated from an early age. They've been promised a glorious afterlife if they blindly follow what they've been told. Threatened with "eternal damnation" if you don't.

Religion is nothing more than a tool to control thoughts, feelings, desires and emotions. It's more powerful that political control. It's mind control.

It's funny how those who calls themselves a "christian" sees the folly of other religions but not their own. Mind control again.

I don't condemn anyone who wants to go along with this, but they better not condemn me for not.

[CowboyBob]

You can not control desires, emotions and feelings. You can only control how you react to them.

Same difference.

[Mariatenebre]

Maria, stick your nose in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and read #2357-2359. FYI, I am not self-hating, as everyone around me knows all about me, and understands where I am coming from. [Quoted Text: Removed] I will put you on my prayer list.

I know what the Catechism says that dosen't change the fact that it is wrong. It is shown that homosexuality is caused by nature and not some curse caused by inherited guilt. You believe in being celibate and hating your sexuality even though psychology says the opposite.

[Text: Removed] Next don't save a prayer for me. I would rather my name not be mentioned in a prayer to Yahweh Sabeoth the bloody war god of the Canaanites.

Mariatenebre, thank you for your question. I am not sure what "objectively disordered" means, but I believe that homosexuality is most likely caused by nature and not chosen by those individuals. I am willing to believe that sexual activity outside of marriage is usually wrong, but homosexual activity is no worse than heterosexual activity. Even if sexual activity is usually wrong outside of marriage, in our culture it is difficult to believe that it is a serious error between consenting adults, but more of a lesser sin. Humankind has many human tendancies which we must learn to control, such as greed and sex among many others, and we must learn to direct these tendancies in constructive directions. Greed is probably a worse problem than sex. I believe in God and believe that the basic beliefs and ideaology of the Catholic Church is the closest to God's will, but humankind sometimes is misguided in carrying it out and I have some disagreements with some Catholic policies. I do believe that abortion is murder, but we do allow murder in wartime and do execute criminals. If we do stop abortions, it would be wrong to do that without providing economic and emotional support support to mothers and children, such as, and including, starting with free healthcare to children from pre-birth through the age of 19 as well as financial support.

Sex outside of marriage hurts no one. In fact it is far better then choosing to marry just because you want to have sex. Also do you then believe in gay marriage since you believe in the nonsense of waiting to have sex to get married or do you believe in the celibacy nonsense.

As for abortion sorry but according to science it is not murder. A fetus/embryo/cluster of cells has no sentience, personhood or intelligence and has as much of these things as a jar of paste. Any given animal has more of these things then these pre life forms and I don't see pro lifers running out to be vegetarians.

[ludolfo]

Maria, stick your nose in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and read #2357-2359. FYI, I am not self-hating, as everyone around me knows all about me, and understands where I am coming from. [Quoted Text: Removed] I will put you on my prayer list.

you mean this bit?

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. [2347]

So your saying that gay people must not have sex, right? So why do you frequent a forums that is very open about gay sexual freedom and pornography? Is your mission here to 'save' gay people from 'sin' and to call this mission and requirement religion and spirituality?

[ludolfo]

Prove it.
Pretty please

Well errrm the Christian conquests of the 'New World' for example? And before that was the massive suppression of the Old European Goddess religion by the same kind of oppression fostered by Judeo-Christianity.

Has anyone heard of the VICTIM/PERPETRATOR SYNDROME? This is a dyanmic that is claimed to happen to the followers and the Judeo-Christian myth. I first read it from John Lamb Lash. I don't agree with some other stuff he claim, as he comes from a Gnostic perspective which I also feel has a paranoid outlook on nature (which I see the Christian myth having) such as his view of the 'Archons' etc, but I really gell with his insights here. I will quote his summary of the syndrome:

TW: And it provides a cover and justification for dominators and abusers to maim and kill. Take us through what you call the Victim-Perpetrator Syndrome.

JLL: For some 50 years in American psychology we have developed the idea of the abuse bonding, or what I call the “victim-perpetrator syndrome”. If there is an abuser and there are people who are abused, there will be a bond formed between them. And some of the abused will then become abusers in turn. And even the abused people in the system who do not become abusers will remain faithful and loyal to those who abused them. We see it in dysfunctional families where children who are beaten to an atrocious degree will stand up and defend their parents. So I looked at the victim-perpetrator syndrome to analyze history and found that the ideology of Christian salvation is a concept that is really pathological and serves as a cover for the victim-perpetrator game to continue.

TW: If perpetrators of abuse are more often than not abused themselves –what abuse was inflicted upon the Europeans prior to the 1st Century that produced for them this drive for domination through violence?

JLL: Go back and read the Old Testament. Read how Jehovah treats his chosen children.

TW: He’s always threatening to wipe them out!

JLL: He punishes them, and then he promises to reward them more highly than any other nations. But at the same time that’s only a lure to pull them deeper into the bonding. The next thing you know they’re being punished again and told they’re not good enough. If you read the Old Testament with this victim-perpetrator syndrome as a key it’s a pretty eye-opening experience. The second historical example is when the Europeans discovered America. They systematically perpetrated genocide on the Native Americans. Why did they do that when they could have acted otherwise and made alliances with those people? My answer is that the Europeans who came to the Americas in the 15th century had already had genocide and violence enacted on them through the imposition of Christianity. They were the abused who turned into the abusers.

TW: Let’s talk about Jesus. He is considered the very best human to ever walk the earth. You are arguing that’s not the case. ff

[FirmaFan]

“He who acts against his conscience loses his soul.” (Fourth Lateran council, 1215)

“It is better to perish in excommunication than to violate one’s conscience.” (St. Thomas Aquinas)

“I shall drink . . To Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards.” (Cardinal John Henry Newman)

“If Newman places conscience above authority, he is not proclaiming anything new with respect to the constant teaching of the Church.” (Pope John Paul II)

“In the final analysis, conscience is inviolable and no person is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his/her conscience, as the moral tradition of the Church attests.” (Human Life in Our Day, U.S. Bishops Pastoral)

“A human being must always follow the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were to deliberately act against it he would condemn himself.” Catechism of the Catholic Church #1790)

“We follow church leaders only to the extent that they themselves follow Christ. . .
Some situations oblige one to obey God and one’s own conscience rather than the leaders of the church. Indeed, one may even be obliged to accept excommunication rather than act against one’s own conscience.” (Cardinal Walter Kasper, Head of Ecumenical Matters at the Vatican.)

“Over the Pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority, there still stands one’s own conscience, which must be obeyed over all else, if necessary even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority.” (Commentary on Section 16 of Vatican II’s Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World.)

I got this from http://www.gaychristian.net/communit.../post/new/#NEW

If you are only going to follow the teachings of the religion that agree with your conscience (by "putting your conscience first"), why not accept your conscience as your source of morality and abandon the religious doctrine that comes with all the immoral baggage that your conscience knows better than to not follow? If you are able to cherry-pick the good in religious doctrine and ignore the bad, you have already demonstrated yourself to be morally superior.

[zoltanspawn]

“He who acts against his conscience loses his soul.” (Fourth Lateran council, 1215)

“It is better to perish in excommunication than to violate one’s conscience.” (St. Thomas Aquinas)

“I shall drink . . To Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards.” (Cardinal John Henry Newman)

“If Newman places conscience above authority, he is not proclaiming anything new with respect to the constant teaching of the Church.” (Pope John Paul II)

“In the final analysis, conscience is inviolable and no person is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his/her conscience, as the moral tradition of the Church attests.” (Human Life in Our Day, U.S. Bishops Pastoral)

“A human being must always follow the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were to deliberately act against it he would condemn himself.” Catechism of the Catholic Church #1790)

“We follow church leaders only to the extent that they themselves follow Christ. . .
Some situations oblige one to obey God and one’s own conscience rather than the leaders of the church. Indeed, one may even be obliged to accept excommunication rather than act against one’s own conscience.” (Cardinal Walter Kasper, Head of Ecumenical Matters at the Vatican.)

“Over the Pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority, there still stands one’s own conscience, which must be obeyed over all else, if necessary even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority.” (Commentary on Section 16 of Vatican II’s Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World.)

I got this from http://www.gaychristian.net/communit.../post/new/#NEW

^I'm glad to see many christians on the website supporting the idea that god blesses gay unions. I think it's a shame that there are so many who think gay love is sinful.

[FirmaFan]

I am under the understanding that Christ founded the Church, and that he did not promise that the leaders are going to be perfect, just as none of us can claim to be perfect in any sense of the word, now with all things considered, we are all called to strive to be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect....Becoming what we strive for, is in fact Hard work, and it is a lifetime of work. The institution that Christ established is perfect in its own right, but the leaders are not perfect at all. So, you say that I have established myself to be Morally superior? I cannot even Match it, as I am morally inferior, and I can only strive for what Christ asks of me.

If you are as morally inferior as you claim yourself to be (again with the ideas of self-loathing instilled by this religion), by what basis then are you able to determine that the institution christ established is morally superior? And, if what is asked of you by christ is deemed morally superior simply because it comes from a powerful being, that isn't morality, that is submission.

[FirmaFan]

You have a big tendency to think that all religious submission is either coerced, or involuntary, but as for me...it is absolutely Voluntary, and that is the kind of Submission that God wants. He does not want submission that is coerced or involuntary. And again, I reiterate the fact that my Bishop knows all about me being Gay, and the fact that he says that I need not change myself. Now, does that still make me self-loathing? I think not. I have absolutely no reasons to leave the Church founded by Christ. Yes, the church was founded that includes sinful leaders from St. Peter on up to Pope Benedict XVI. The leaders of the Orthodox Church are just as much a sinner as everyone else including me, and you....yes you too.

Submission, whether voluntary or not, has no bearing on the fact that simply because a powerful being pronounces something that does not mean it automatically becomes a moral truth. Submission to an authority figure deemed moral merely by the fact that they are the authority is not a path to morality.

And, of the many many times I have pointed out to you an aspect of your religion that promotes self-loathing, rarely has that been loathing because of homosexuality. Calling yourself morally inferior, claiming you are burdened with the crime of original sin, pronouncing all of humanity as imperfect sinners - those are all examples of self-loathing. Believing these as truths is a tragic consequence, and I feel you are very much a victim of some extremely cruel religious practices. I like to think of us as being much better than religion gives us credit for.

[FirmaFan]

It looks to me that you're claiming to be without any sin, something that no one may claim to be, not even me.

I reject the idea of sin as proposed by various religions. It is a non-existent ailment so I can be sold an imaginary cure. Sorry, not buying it.

It also seems that with all of your postings, that you are a Militant Atheist, and in denial of the Reality Of God existing in Heaven and on Earth.

Me being an atheist is not contingent upon any militant dogma, it is the conclusion I have come to about the nature of the various claims of the existence of god/gods based upon reasoning, evidence, and rational argument.

God is all around you, and in all of Creation. Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory is just at the threshold of Death. It is far better to suffer Purgatory or Hell in this Life before death, and if you want real proof of the life after death, then ask the Creator to show you, because Science in this matter will not give you the proof that you need.

So, all I have to do to find proof of life after death is first believe, then ask the creator, who will show me proof in order to make me believe. It's circular - I have to believe before I can believe - and it gets us no closer to actually discovering the truth. You are probably right, science won't be able to give evidence of life-after-death, most after-death claims are by nature unfalsifiable and are therefore moot when it comes to scientific verification. But here's one thing I do know - I exist here and now, I am guaranteed the life I have now, for it is what I currently have. As this is the only life I know for sure I am to have, I want to do everything I can to make sure I am experiencing reality on reality's terms, so, no, it is a far greater risk to suffer purgatory or hell in this life before death, and I am not one to discard my one guaranteed existence in favor of some idea of an afterlife that, according to all known evidence, most likely doesn't exist.

[Laufey]

MikeyLove the bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong. And no it's not just the old testament you can find it in the new one as well (they have just taken the death penalty part out of it).

If a gay person follows Christianity it must be one of the two:

1. They consider their sexuality to be a sin. Self-hate.

2. They pick and choose what to take from the religion and what not to. When you do that you might as well just be spiritual without organized religion.

[Laufey]

Are you number 1 or 2?

If there is a third option please explain it to me.

Once you have done that I will answer your question.

[Rickrock]

Reply to Mariatenebre post #25. I believe that there should be a legal form of gay marriage. I am uncertain what I think about how the Catholic Church should address this.

I believe that a fetus is a human and you do not. I don't think that we are going to change each others opinion.

[Laufey]

It shouldn't be up to the government whether religious institutes bless gay marriages or not.

The main thing is to allow same gender marriages by the law and also allow religious gay marriages to be a option if that institute wants to take that path.

If some of these institutes want to show their true colors, that they will not bless gay marriages despite social and legal changes... then that's a good thing in my book. Christianities part in peoples daily life gets smaller and smaller with time mainly because it's on a different path from the general public. It continuing that way is a good thing in my book.

[ludolfo]

If you are only going to follow the teachings of the religion that agree with your conscience (by "putting your conscience first"), why not accept your conscience as your source of morality and abandon the religious doctrine that comes with all the immoral baggage that your conscience knows better than to not follow? If you are able to cherry-pick the good in religious doctrine and ignore the bad, you have already demonstrated yourself to be morally superior.

HOW do you know it is your conscience when you are already under the mind-control of a cult?

Surely you are already indoctrinated by the cult's dogma, and hence what you think is your conscience is really the dictates of the cult which you robotically follow. This more will explain the utter horrendous barbarity shown to women, children, and gay people, in the 16th century by members of the Christian cult who carried this horror out from orders by the highest authority of the cult. So what sense would it make to those doing so to ask them to act on their conscience? Because to them they were! Like the soldier will say he is just doing his duty.
They were attempting to eradicate "evil" weren't they, or "impurity".
Hitler and the Nazis were driven by this same irrational concept.

[FirmaFan]

So do you think there are no sins at all, or do you think that sins exist?
I think sins obviously exist, but I can accept if someone doesn't agree with the Church about them.
Sins doesn't exist because there is a religion that says : "X activity is sinful, thus if you take part in it, you shall suffer in Y place of sufferin for Z eternities if you do not repent"

Sins exist because there are things that you can only accomplish through wounding others. Killing is a sin. Most of the time. This is the easiest example of sin, but then there comes stealing. Stealing is a sin, because you take something from someone. You get something by damaging anothers life. Same goes for infidelity.
It is the very nature of sin to be a selfish act.

The word "sin" carries with it a lot of religious baggage, so much so that I tend to avoid using the term. In describing the various things you have mentioned, I tend to discuss them with respect to the ideas of morality.

[FirmaFan]

HOW do you know it is your conscience when you are already under the mind-control of a cult?

Surely you are already indoctrinated by the cult's dogma, and hence what you think is your conscience is really the dictates of the cult which you robotically follow. This more will explain the utter horrendous barbarity shown to women, children, and gay people, in the 16th century by members of the Christian cult who carried this horror out from orders by the highest authority of the cult. So what sense would it make to those doing so to ask them to act on their conscience? Because to them they were! Like the soldier will say he is just doing his duty.
They were attempting to eradicate "evil" weren't they, or "impurity".
Hitler and the Nazis were driven by this same irrational concept.

Morality, to an extent, is a subjective concept, and, yes, it is possible for a person to be so indoctrinated in an ideology that their sense of morality becomes completely skewed. I would say, however, that the ones who "truly" believe that committing acts the consequences of which would be very readily deemed "immoral" are acting morally are on the fringe, and would be severely outnumbered if not for the institutions that constantly instill commands that otherwise would not be followed. Check out the Milgram obedience experiments for demonstrations on how people come to commit actions they themselves would deem wrong because commands to do so are coming from figures of authority. It's frightening how easy it is to get a person to act against their moral conscience, even when fully aware of the action being "wrong", but it makes sense when thinking about the kinds of actions numerous people have taken like the kinds you described in your post.

[FirmaFan]

Calling sins crimes would be misleading, because it would make it sounds that they are against the law. But in fact they are against morals.

Yep. Pretty much what I said. I will discuss actions with regards to morality, calling them "sins" just isn't appropriate outside of religious context.

Sin is an expression of a certain set of actions, and just because the word itself appeared in a religious context you shouldn't throw it away.

It would be like NOT using the medical knowledge gathered by the nazi doctors during the holocaust. It would be a waste.

It's not that the word "sin" appears in religious contexts; it's that, to many, and I would say, the majority, the word "sin" still today carries with it the religious meanings that I may want to avoid in certain discussions. The various actions you listed before are certainly morally reprehensible, but if I were to call them "sin" I would be invoking religious ideas (such as commandments from god) that tend to go along with the word that I would feel is unnecessary in certain conversations. I don't avoid using the word, I will use the word when appropriate, but I don't feel it can be used without giving the topic at hand a religious undertone. If I don't want to involve religious context in the conversation, the word "sin" is definitely something I'm going to avoid.

[Telstra]

whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?


Because the whole aim is to "spread the good news"

[Mariatenebre]

You have a big tendency to think that all religious submission is either coerced, or involuntary, but as for me...it is absolutely Voluntary, and that is the kind of Submission that God wants. He does not want submission that is coerced or involuntary. And again, I reiterate the fact that my Bishop knows all about me being Gay, and the fact that he says that I need not change myself. Now, does that still make me self-loathing? I think not. I have absolutely no reasons to leave the Church founded by Christ. Yes, the church was founded that includes sinful leaders from St. Peter on up to Pope Benedict XVI. The leaders of the Orthodox Church are just as much a sinner as everyone else including me, and you....yes you too.

Ok your Bishop knows that you are gay whop dee doo. Now does your Bishop and you personally believe that the only way for you to be spiritually right with your god is to be celibate and to deny your urges. Plus you said that homosexual orientation is caused by original sin and not only is that offensive (as is the concept of original sin) but it contradicts science as well.

It looks to me that you're claiming to be without any sin, something that no one may claim to be, not even me. It also seems that with all of your postings, that you are a Militant Atheist, and in denial of the Reality Of God existing in Heaven and on Earth. God is all around you, and in all of Creation. Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory is just at the threshold of Death. It is far better to suffer Purgatory or Hell in this Life before death, and if you want real proof of the life after death, then ask the Creator to show you, because Science in this matter will not give you the proof that you need.

Everybody does things wrong what is a lie is that we are cursed to be sinful. Now all of the evidence shows that your god atleast is a human construct. Also no sacrificeing your happiness and living a Hellish life on Earth and choosing to be miserable and to deny who you are is not worth Heaven and no ammount of compensation is worth the misery and psychological ill of denying who you are and being miserable. Further more psychology says that you should not deny who you are and loath who you are. In fact it is the biggest scheme of all time. Make yourself miserable and servile on Earth to prepare for a nonexistan god's Heaven instead of making your own Heaven here.

Reply to Mariatenebre post #25. I believe that there should be a legal form of gay marriage. I am uncertain what I think about how the Catholic Church should address this.

I believe that a fetus is a human and you do not. I don't think that we are going to change each others opinion.

Ok well atleast you support gay marriage, we agree on that.

Next it is not me that says a fetus is not a person it is science. You can however choose to deny science and live under false mysticism but you forefeit your right to be a rational person.

[Nemothepanda]

I just don't understand why someone would actively be part of a religion that so stigmatizes their feelings towards men. Why pray to a deity who says that homosexuality is an abomination that has no place in the world to the point of being a death sentence?

[ludolfo]

The evil of this belief exists for real. I saw a documentary that was very eye-opening and horrific to see for any gay person. A gay UK radio show host went undercover to Africa, Uganda, and pretending to be straight went around interviewing people from all sections of the community whether or not gay people should be punished. EVERYone he asked was behind this evil, even the youth who you would have thought would not be so conforming, and they mostly quoted the Bible in support of their homophobia. One African girl on a radio show about the subject he'd arranged even said that dreaded cliched crap "God didn't make Adam and Steve [pause] He made Adam and Eve". T%he climax was him arranging an interview with one of the country's top politicians who wanted to introduce the death penalty for gays who had been caught having sex. You should have seen the expression on his face when at the end of the interview the interviewer confessed he was gay lol. Soon after we here he had to quickly leave the country for fear for his life!

Gay youths in America etc etc have killed themselves because of bullycide--persecuted because they are gay or suspected of being gay. They are the tip of the iceberg with many kids lives made misery. So what I am saying is this is very serious, and is supported by Bible believers. It is not enough to pretend to be tolerant but then insist gay people cannot have sex with others, or before marriage as it is sinful. It is this belief in a 'pure God' that is the problem, because then others are considered of a sinful nature and hence 'impure'.

[ludolfo]

Do you think there wouldn't be homophobic people if, say, religion would be eradicated? I think the situation would remain the same, because now people use religion as an excuse, and justification for their hatred towards gays, but if there were no religion, than their hate would remain.

Humans naturally distance themselves from the unknown. I do not know why, but most humans always see difference as an opposition.
Why is that? Why does human nature constantly seek an opposition, a group he can blame everything on? In every group there is someone who becames the omega-male. In every society there is group that is hated. In every country, there a regions that are hated by most others.

I think this is a psychological phenomena. People want an enemy to hate, and blame everything on so they don't have to face their own failings.

Well in your own way you are really translating the Christian assumption of 'human nature' into psychologism. IE., instead of claiming that human nature is by sinful as the Christian myth states, you pretend that it has always been so and this is now a scientific-psychological fact that humans always hate others, 'an unknown'. Believing this myth, instead of really looking at the Christian myth and what belief in it does to the psychology you deny all that--refuse to look-- and claim human nature is like this throughout and has been always, and there's no real solution.

The Christian myth believes in a 'God' who is 'pure', and that nature by itself is 'impure', and thus we need to surrender to this 'God' so as to 'redeem' ourselves.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

But you seem to want to deny the pernicious assumptions of this myth and now diffuse the looking into it by claiming 'ohhh, its been human nature all along to hate gays, and blacks, and women, and nature, and sex, and 'the unknown''). This is your myth, and it stops you looking and questioning the Christian myth which blames human nature for being sinful and sexual love, especially being between those of the same sex, as being sinful.

Look, it really doesn't matter that there may have been other mythologies which have been violent. One could see the ancient Aztec mythology as being very bloody and cruel. The thing is we have to NOW to look and question. Realy mythology is not then but a living dynamic now. We are living now, and these problems--such as young people being bullied to death for being gay-- are with us now yet you defend an old story set down many centuries ago in a totally different culture and time and imagine it could apply to now when all it does is cause much of the fear and paranoia about sexuality etc.

[ludolfo]

That reply of mine sounds muddled, and not clear so I am gonna try to be clearer. OK, The Christian belief is that nature is already sinful. You then say that even despite Chrstian belief people will always be afraid of the unknown and attack what it doesn't understand. How do you know this?

native American culture pre-the European conquests accepted gay people, and they were known as 'two spirits' and considered sacred. So aty least there was a respect for males who desired other males. (sorry I do not know about lesbians)

But JUST because you may point out cultures from the past who not being Christian may have feared an unknown does not mean that the Christian belief system doesn't encourage such fear of the unknown.It starts of from its very beginning creating paranoia amongst its believers by claiming they are sinful, and the 'flesh' is to be feared and not trusted, and nature is fallen and ruled over by the devil who desires their souls to go to hell for everlasting pain. I mean sheeeeit you cant get more paranoid than that...can ya? LOL

How does this myth translate into secular culture, for after all most 'educated' people will calim that all of this is superstition, and now we live in an Age of Science. Well, we still have homophobia, so is this as you claim because this fear of the 'unknown' is inherent in human nature or is it that Christian values still permeate the culture albeit mainly unconsciously.

I wonder who are the groups that will not allow teaching children about homosexuality in their enforced schooling system? Would you say they are Conservative Christians or Conservative atheists? I am seriously asking you to tell me what you think?

There is also the question of what does gay even mean? Is it black and white with gays on one side and heteros on the other or is it far more complex than that? What do you think?

[Laufey]

Are you a Fundamentalist?

No.

Now answer my question:

MikeyLove the bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong. And no it's not just the old testament you can find it in the new one as well (they have just taken the death penalty part out of it).

If a gay person follows Christianity it must be one of the two:

1. They consider their sexuality to be a sin. Self-hate.

2. They pick and choose what to take from the religion and what not to. When you do that you might as well just be spiritual without organized religion.

Are you number 1 or 2?

If there is a third option please explain it to me.

[palbert]

The earth's magnetic poles have not shifted for a couple thousand years. Let's see if christianity survives the next polar shift. And that is the depth of your argument.

[ludolfo]

Perhaps not referring to it as "the Christian myth" would allow people to take you more seriously. Hard to get into a discussion with someone who is biased to the point of rolling your eyes.

Persecution for any reason has happened throughout history, even where religion was not involved. Why is that in many African countries, there is racism towards those who are darker than others? Hell, slavery was largely institutionalized with nary any mention of it being God's will (except from the fringe which both sides distanced themselves from).

By and large, the theme has always been that someone or some group wants to be the dominant force. Look towards animals who don't have the capacity for ego, exploitation, etc. Religion just adds an easy layer of explanation. You can easily dismiss the conversation so as to respect someone's beliefs or it can be used to incite those who believe it is their duty in life. It's much more socially acceptable to say "It's against my religion" than to say "I simply don't like you because of who you are." It's also much easier to get someone to join you when they think they're working for something bigger than themselves.

I have already said that I think Christianity is a mythology, but you believe I must censor myself from daring to say that. Why? I am not anti-mythology as such. I am anti toxic-mythology, and I include a mythology which denies it is a mythology and demands it is historical literalism.

If you want to go into the origins of racism and fear of dark skin it is true that this occurs long before the Christian Church comes to be established, but the Church is of course influenced by this fear of darkness and the unknown. It grows out of this presumption of reality. So what are its beginnings?
The patriarchy, and its psychological division between light and darkness where the former, light, is conceptualized to be superior, and the latter inferior, and from there they impose this prejudice even onto dark skin tone, and anything or body seen as inferior including of course women, and nature, and human natures. And we can very much see this prejudice in Christian scripture and writings. So we agree on this?
But this does not mean you ignore the Church's carrying on of this ignorance and violence, and presume it is 'human nature'. It is not human nature but a series of mythologies which influence each other and need exposing for what they do to the believers in them.

Are you suggesting that human nature is like this and so creates these myths?

In one sense it is in that the people who create these myths have human nature and choose to do so, but it is a misguided nature. A nature cut off from itself so to speak.
It is more like an elitist predatory section of the community will create these stories to have power over others. That is not ALL human nature is it? It's more certain groups of individuals who are control freaks, and they create stories which make it easier for them to keep control, because IF we believe we are sinful, etc etc, then we are divided against ourselves aren't we? We become our own control freak. See how it works?

[Laufey]

You haven't answered me yet.

[HoodedRat]

Okay, for the sake of argument....What if the Catholic Church is right after all, how will you deal with it?

Or, for the sake of argument, what if the the Muslims are 'right' after all
... or the Hindus ... or the Buddhists ... or the Pagans ... or the Taoists ... or the Seikhs ... or the Jews ... or the Rastafarians ... or the Gnostics ... or the Parsis ... or whatever?
How will you deal with it?

[ludolfo]

Exactly.
It is the nature of all things to find the easiest way to reach a destination. The water flows where it finds way to flow.
If there is no explanation to a phenomena, we are creating a simple and easily understandable explanation, which is comfortable to our minds, and later, over decades and centuries, we keep modifying it to serve our needs properly.

When you talk about water flowing etc that to me sounds a bit Taoist. I am not a Taoist or any 'thing' (I like to stay flexible like water lol), but I do like some of the stuff I have read in the Tao Te Ching.

IF it is human nature to hate and 'fear the other', how come I am against that as some others are in this thread and in the world. OR are you claiming I am of the same ilk? Don't worry about offending me by being honest. I am just trying to dig where your coming from with this conversation.

Can you not see that it is the stories you tell yourself about reality which influence you?

[ludolfo]

why do some kids grow up racists and others don't? You will see infants playing together, all colours of skin, yet when they get to a certain age some will find a group and then call other individuals and groups bad names and even attack them. Why?
Could it be that they hear things their parents say, that the TV says, both overtly and covertly, and what the school says, and supposed history and religion says and then is influenced by this do you think?

[Apollosfire]

I am really happy that on a forum site that hugely promotes sexual gratification, we have threads about religious,myths, and spiritus. It makes me wonder if sexual nature and love are so far from spiritual/quantum entanglements as some purist claim.
I will contest the OP and some of the comments first by stating my background because or makeup tends to influence our beliefs. nature. I am american, black, christian raised and gay/bi and consider myself educated and gnostic, occultist*occult as unseen knowledge * I believe science cannot explain our lives fully. But I do also believe christian doctrine, catholic or protestant is a creation myth, as many religions are. I don't think it is a simple story to explain the unknown as many here claim. These faiths, may attempt to explain nature but the adherents mostly find it away to explain their lives.
This christian myth has power because of its emotional influence over people, the history of people crusading and it being one of the first stories to go into written form. Thus for many years, those who considered themselves educated explored Christ,read and spread Christ.
I disagree that humans are hate the unknown and are natural phobic. There are obviously some be these tend a lot more cultural tradition and learning, humans tend to be pretty curious, sexually, intellectually and reach out. You have to tell children not to go running around, not to fiddle with everything, an not to speak to strangers, who to dislike as groups..obviously we have personal attractions but to say we are stick with our own traditional animal, no I think not. That is another reason I see religion and christianity having power it sets modes of behavior and limitations and impossible stakes. your soul, is a risk if you step out of line..thats pretty strong motivator.
My question/problems with it stem from the paradox of supreme being creating imperfect beings and requesting/asking them to be godlike. Why would a god request this seems kindof cruel. Either you create a universe and its so awesome humans look at it and say woah this is wonderful ..something grand must created it,and me...but im so horrible and must be imperfect..let me go against my god given drives...and act inhumane or the creator might be a little flawed. I tend to thank the latter and am always reminded of a art-history professor who told me of one artist "he thought the best reprensentation of the human spirit, was the human body, so perfectly imperfect, so varied so vulgar, and yet man to women, coal to ivory..we find ourselves in each other." There is something so familiar. My belief is christianity is western *myth of great magnetism because of the money,wars,and grand stakes it has evoked,heaven,hell, souls, and a promise of forgiveness if you happen to murder,steal, cheat or swindle..you can still be forgiven that type of hope galvanizes people.
Unfortunately all to often, people do cherry pick their beliefs, proclaim themselves, their families and people who they like and agree with 'saved', 'enlightenment', entitled' and damn everyone else savages, pagans, sinners etc.thus expendable.
*myths, this word is literary, referring to stories. Please people of faith don't get buthurt when someone refers to your book,with its dramas as such. Your own history may one day become a myth is your actions are so awesome or fearsome that others choose to tell it. You will have little control over embellishments,contradictions an complete miscarriages of your name..as it is with Christ and Buddhas of the world. As above and so bellow , as with me and you.

[Mariatenebre]

First off, Just being Gay is not a sin, it is acting on it that is known to be sinful in the eyes of the Church, and in the Bible.

Secondly, I do not pick and choose what to believe, I just struggle with issues and Pray for God's Guidance. I cannot separate my Spirituality from Catholicism, and I will not even attempt to separate it, because it is the Glue that holds all things together....just my opinion. Besides, God's will is 1000 times more important than my own feeble will, and NO, I am not self Hating as many of you like to call it.

Does those answer the third one you mentioned?

Again this shows the evil of your religion. The fact that it says that being gay is not a sin but acting on it is a sin is like someone saying that having blue eyes is not a sin but displaying them is. Denying gays the ability to have natural sexual relations is hateful and anyone who is gay but believes that they must deny their sexuality is a self hater. Expressing your sexuality is apart of being gay and hating gay relations is hating homosexuality and homosexuals because it is hating gays natural sexuality as expressed by their orientation. Plus as science shows there is nothing wrong with gay sex and it is not psychologically healthy for gays or anyone to live a life of sexual deprivation. The fact that your god and Church would have gays live miserable lives without sexual and romantic fulfillment again shows the evil nature of your religion. Next your god's will is not 1000 times more important then human will. Our will and happiness is just as important as any gods and we have the right to live happy and fulfilling lives. The fact that you think that your God's will is more important then human's will or well being is nothing more then an example of the dictatorial mindset that sets some dictator's will as more important then the will and happiness of the masses.

[Text: Removed]

[bankside]

As an atheist, I believe science has not explained our lives fully. Whether it can has yet to be claimed, never mind proven.

It is also apparent that religions have pretended to explain our lives fully, attributing, according to their imagination, purpose, origins, obligations, and any manner of other qualities which should properly be called "guesses" instead of "revelations" or "commandments" or "divine laws."

[zoltanspawn]

God does not approve Hatred, and God cannot sin, because if he did, then he would be called a liar. It is Mankind through its Fallen Nature that hates on others. Yes God is Love, and his Mercy and Justice cannot be separated from his Love.

Personally, I do not think that God is approving those who are in Violation of what is written in the middle of paragraph #2358 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.

Right, it's the just discrimination against us which is okay. Got it.