Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

[TX-Beau]

GREAT!!!!

A spending cut proponent LETS CUT HOMELAND SECURITY!!!!!

[Kulindahr]

That's too funny. Obama's offer is about as fair and balanced as Fox news. LOL

The man will never agree to seriously needed spending cuts.

His proposal is agreeing to seriously needed spending cuts.

And the Republicans, if they go with it, will be agreeing to seriously needed revenue increases.

The trick is, once he's agreed to cuts, that it will be easier to get him to agree again. And the trick is also to make a good step, and let the economy adjust, then make another step and let the economy adjust. Hopefully after three or four such deals, we'll have a budget surplus, and can start doing the honorable and conservative thing: paying down the debt.

Starting with China, because the interest we're paying them is funding their military expansion.

[Kulindahr]

GREAT!!!!

A spending cut proponent LETS CUT HOMELAND SECURITY!!!!!

Oh, come on; be a radical libertarian--

LET'S CUT NATIONAL PARKS!



Actually, we could do with selling off a fair bit of federal land in the western states. It would put money in the treasury, and put land on the tax rolls for those states.

[HenryReardon]

GREAT!!!!

A spending cut proponent LETS CUT HOMELAND SECURITY!!!!!

Better yet, let's require every department of the Federal government to accept a 5% cut in budget every year for the next five or ten years. No exceptions.

[TX-Beau]

Oh, come on; be a radical libertarian--

LET'S CUT NATIONAL PARKS!



Actually, we could do with selling off a fair bit of federal land in the western states. It would put money in the treasury, and put land on the tax rolls for those states.

The Sierra Club is going to send snipers after you.

So tell me (grin) should radical tree huggers be deprived of their sniper rifles?

[TX-Beau]

Henry hates Grandma, wants her to just die already.

There would be no need to kill off Grandma if we stopped trying to be the world police.

[HenryReardon]

Henry hates Grandma, wants her to just die already.

.

What has grandma got to do with anything?
Besides, Obama's death panels will take care of that. They've already admitted to their existence. Look it up and learn.

I'll save you the trouble. Here's a little gem from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/17/op...are.html?_r=3&

[TX-Beau]

Simple Kemosabe, you take away pills, grandma dies.

You cut Medicaid, you kill a lot of grandmas. There's no way around that, which is why your head is planted firmly between your nether cheeks, so you don't have to face it.

...BUT BUT BUT we must CUT SPENDING....

Sure, lets start with where the most money is spent. Cutting education and killing grandma just makes you look like a loon. Why is it that loony wingnuts in here are all in favor of government bans on killing clusters of cells, but want to murder Grandma? What is with that? Do they think the old biddy's just lived to long already?

Tell us Henry, why do you hate children and want to kill Grandma?

[TX-Beau]

Did I ask Henry why he wants to murder Grandma? Can't quite remember.....

[maxpowr9]

Did I ask Henry why he wants to murder Grandma? Can't quite remember.....

Something about inheritance although the US does have a slayer rule.

[JayHawk]

Oh, come on; be a radical libertarian--

LET'S CUT NATIONAL PARKS!



Actually, we could do with selling off a fair bit of federal land in the western states. It would put money in the treasury, and put land on the tax rolls for those states.

Fuck that the BLM and NPS lands will be my home after the Navy... cant be selling off my new backyard.

[Kulindahr]

What has grandma got to do with anything?
Besides, Obama's death panels will take care of that. They've already admitted to their existence. Look it up and learn.

I'll save you the trouble. Here's a little gem from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/17/op...are.html?_r=3&

A sad aspect to this is a study I saw: they looked at having hospitals in a city specialize rather than all of them have all the fancy equipment. They've actually been doing that in Portland; there's one hospital which handles the cardiac expertise, and others with their own focuses. I haven't seen rigorous figures, darn it, but they claim significant saving -- and fewer errors along with it, which I guess comes from the fact that doctors are more focused on just one area.


Is that in the plan?

[Kulindahr]

Fuck that the BLM and NPS lands will be my home after the Navy... cant be selling off my new backyard.

If you look at maps of national forest and BLM land out west, you'll see a lot of little packets less than a square mile in size, not attached to any extensive lands of that category. Those are what I'm proposing selling off. It would have a secondary benefit, because often those are the most costly to monitor and take care of, exactly because they're separate them from the rest.

They could be sold the way our state forestry sold some packets around here: 90% has to remain in its natural state.

[TX-Beau]

A sad aspect to this is a study I saw: they looked at having hospitals in a city specialize rather than all of them have all the fancy equipment. They've actually been doing that in Portland; there's one hospital which handles the cardiac expertise, and others with their own focuses. I haven't seen rigorous figures, darn it, but they claim significant saving -- and fewer errors along with it, which I guess comes from the fact that doctors are more focused on just one area.


Is that in the plan?

Henry is apparently unable to distinguish between OP-ED and news. Explains a lot actually

[chance1]

on topic please

and in that vein

getting closer to a fiscal cliff deal ???

uh NO

boehner and obama are at odds again - seems boehner proposed a Plan B - $1M threshold on tax increases

Obama tastelessly referenced the Newtown shootings - pretty douchey - very much so acutally

At his news conference, Obama alluded to last Friday's Connecticut school shootings in calling on Republicans to put aside political brinksmanship. "If there's one thing we should have after this week, it should be perspective about what's important," he said.

then he added another ME ME comment

Asked why an agreement was proving so elusive after both sides had made concessions, Obama said it might be that "it is very hard for them to say 'yes' to me."
"At some point they've got to take me out of it," Obama said of Republicans, adding they should instead focus on "doing something good for the country."

back to his old uber partisan ways - disappointing and inappropriate




http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/19/politi...iff/index.html

[Kulindahr]

then he added another ME ME comment



back to his old uber partisan ways - disappointing and inappropriate




http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/19/politi...iff/index.html

Stating reality is "uber partisan"?

You really need to let some air out of your balloon and come down to reality.

[JayHawk]

It is impossible the only reality is his dislike of Obama eclipses all rational thought.

That said I wonder if Obama is that shrewd. I heard the idea that Obama may have added the SS chained CPI because he knew Boehner could not pass what was offered and Obama wanted to float a balloon on what he can cut.

What i find disgusting is that SS has a surplus and so does Medicare. They are not the problem. The problem is the rampant spending increases first under Bush for the creation of Homeland Security and then under Obama to clean up thirty years of loosening regulations to put Americans in houses.

I also found that Boehner is trying to pass a tax raise on Americans making over a million. While rolling back all the other tax increases EXCEPT the earned income credit and one other major middle class reduction. SO once again republicans want to pay for rich tax breaks by eviscerating the middle class. Disgusting. Obama needs to let the tax cuts expire and then ask republicans if they are ready to cut taxes yet?

[Jack Springer]

Obama using the Newtown shootings of 20 first graders as a reason to raise taxes was new ground -- new ground that doesn't seem to bother the MSM or liberals.

That tells me a lot.

The agenda is more important than anything.

Rahm taught Obama well.

[JayHawk]

Oh poor baby Jack.

You know what is the truth Jack?

On January First because of a deal republican tea party terrorist that you support created. That doesn't change. Rethuglicans could change things for the majority of Americans but most republicans are either poor and ignorant or wealthy and controlling the interest of their even wealthier masters. To which group do you belong?

[Jack Springer]

Amazing how the first thing you do now when someone makes a point that you can't argue -- you attack them personally.

Sad, so sad.

Now republicans are terrorists -- maybe Obama should hire you.

[Rolyo85]

Where in your video does he talk about taxes?

[JayHawk]

Amazing how the first thing you do now when someone makes a point that you can't argue -- you attack them personally.

Sad, so sad.

Now republicans are terrorists -- maybe Obama should hire you.

Please explain to me how there is a point I havent answered in this thread? Besides personal attacks of course?

[maxpowr9]

As I said, with 11 days left, we are going over this "cliff" and the world will just laugh at the republicans.

[JayHawk]

I sincerely hope they do pass the republican plan B so their constituents will know specifically whose side republicans are on... hint hint it isnt Americas side.

They would have to explain why it goes after middle class Americans more than the rich actually paying their share.

They would also have to explain why they bothered negotiating at all if they were simply going to throw a temper tantrum and demand to get what they want at the end.

[HenryReardon]

What i find disgusting is that SS has a surplus and so does Medicare.?

Who says they have a surplus? What kind of surplus? Links, please.

[JayHawk]

Feel free to do some research.

hen program revenues exceed payments (i.e., the program is in surplus) the extra funds are borrowed and used by the government for other purposes, but a legal obligation to program recipients is created to the extent this occurs. These surpluses add to the Trust Fund. At the end of 2011, the Trust Fund contained (or alternatively, was owed) $2.7 trillion, up $69 billion from 2010.[1] The fund is required by law to be invested in non-marketable securities issued and guaranteed by the "full faith and credit" of the federal government.

The 'owed' part is the ridiculous lie republicans latch onto when claiming it is out of money. The Trust fund is among many other government programs that have bonds in the trust that are payable by the United States Government. However the social security trust fund investments are not marketable securities. They are special issue because they are always guaranteed at face value. In other words the Social Security fund can never lose a dime but can gain money as investments grow.

It is also a travesty that the Social Security fund has become a measure of budget leverage by republicans. it is legally not to be included in any budgetary matter.

EXCLUSION OF SOCIAL SECURITY FROM ALL BUDGETS Pub. L. 101-508, title XIII, Sec. 13301(a), Nov. 5, 1990, 104Stat. 1388-623, provided that: Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the receipts and disbursements of the Federal Old-Age and Survivors Insurance Trust Fund and the Federal Disability Insurance Trust Fund shall not be counted as new budget authority, outlays, receipts, or deficit or surplus for purposes of - (1) the budget of the United States Government as submitted by the President, (2) the congressional budget, or (3) the Balanced Budget and Emergency Deficit Control Act of 1985.

[Kulindahr]

Feel free to do some research.



The 'owed' part is the ridiculous lie republicans latch onto when claiming it is out of money. The Trust fund is among many other government programs that have bonds in the trust that are payable by the United States Government. However the social security trust fund investments are not marketable securities. They are special issue because they are always guaranteed at face value. In other words the Social Security fund can never lose a dime but can gain money as investments grow.

It is also a travesty that the Social Security fund has become a measure of budget leverage by republicans. it is legally not to be included in any budgetary matter.

So one way to look at it is that Social Security holds one debt that the government is absolutely obligated to pay back -- to its own citizens.

[HenryReardon]

Feel free to do some research.



The 'owed' part is the ridiculous lie republicans latch onto when claiming it is out of money. The Trust fund is among many other government programs that have bonds in the trust that are payable by the United States Government. However the social security trust fund investments are not marketable securities. They are special issue because they are always guaranteed at face value. In other words the Social Security fund can never lose a dime but can gain money as investments grow.

It is also a travesty that the Social Security fund has become a measure of budget leverage by republicans. it is legally not to be included in any budgetary matter.

Feel free to do some real research of your own. When you owe money to yourself and the instrument of debt is an IOU from yourself, that's not at all comforting. A regular corporation wouldn't be allowed to get away with it.

And just for the record, it was LBJ who started counting SS funds with the general revenues, probably as a means of hiding the growing cost of Viet Nam. Subsequent adminstrations continued the practice.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_was_S...e_general_fund

That surplus might count if it were invested in something other than government IOUS, but as it stands, it is meaningless. Particularly when the government is already virtually bankrupt and unable to make good on those IOUs.

Obama didn't help when he passed his fake tax cut and reduced payroll taxes. It caused a huge reduction of revenue flowing into the SS funds.

[opinterph]

[The payroll tax cut] caused a huge reduction of revenue flowing into the SS funds.

False.

That surplus might count if it were invested in something other than government IOUS

Funds in the Social Security Trust Fund are worth precisely as much as the dollars in your wallet. Why do you suppose that is true?

[JayHawk]

Feel free to do some real research of your own. When you owe money to yourself and the instrument of debt is an IOU from yourself, that's not at all comforting. A regular corporation wouldn't be allowed to get away with it.

And just for the record, it was LBJ who started counting SS funds with the general revenues, probably as a means of hiding the growing cost of Viet Nam. Subsequent adminstrations continued the practice.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_was_S...e_general_fund

That surplus might count if it were invested in something other than government IOUS, but as it stands, it is meaningless. Particularly when the government is already virtually bankrupt and unable to make good on those IOUs.

Obama didn't help when he passed his fake tax cut and reduced payroll taxes. It caused a huge reduction of revenue flowing into the SS funds.

However the United States of America is not a corporation we are a country.

So either those debts are paid or we cease to exist. If we cease to exist then Social Security will not be paid regardless of whether there is real money in the account or not. SO your point is invalid.

Obama's tax cut effected those most affected by the shit economy. We still took in more than we paid out in Social Security benefits.

The real and actual concern is as our population ages and less and less people are paying into the program. However that is not and will never be a budgetary item. For that fix which is separate from the debt ceiling and our spending we need to decide either three things. Reduce benefits, increase starting age or increase the amount flowing to the fund.

Realistically the only way to keep our faith with the seniors and those who have paid into the program is to increases SS revenues. That can be accomplished in a very smart manner. Such as doubling the contribution cap and means testing the benefit. Just those measures would make the fund pay current rate, cost adjusted for inflation into eternity.

yet republicans want to use the fund that is already paid for to punish seniors for their poor spending habits in starting two wars with a credit card.

[HenryReardon]

False.




Funds in the Social Security Trust Fund are worth precisely as much as the dollars in your wallet. Why do you suppose that is true?

Not false. Funds that would have flowed to SS but did not because of Obama's cuts, were allegedly replaced from the general revenue. More smoke and mirrors
http://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/index.html

Because both the so-called trust fund and the dollars are backed by the US Gov, and frankly, given the state of things, neither of them are worth very much. Why do you think gold prices are soaring?

[HenryReardon]

Means testing of SS and Medicare would be a good start.
As would Bush's plan to let a small portion of contributions be privately invested and held for the contributor. Thanks largely to the hysteria generated by AARP ads, that plan died.
At some point, this country will have to bite the bullet on this topic, but neither party has the balls to do it.

[opinterph]

Not false. Funds that would have flowed to SS [were] replaced from the general revenue.

Ergo, your statement that the Social Security Trust Fund had suffered “a huge reduction” of funds is incorrect. What would otherwise have reduced the reserve was offset by specific allocation, while saving or creating jobs. (Gotta keep that motor running, dontchaknow.)

Payroll Tax Cut Bolsters Social Security, Report Argues

So should I sell my gold now, or wait ‘til later?

[JayHawk]

Not false. Funds that would have flowed to SS but did not because of Obama's cuts, were allegedly replaced from the general revenue. More smoke and mirrors
http://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/index.html

Because both the so-called trust fund and the dollars are backed by the US Gov, and frankly, given the state of things, neither of them are worth very much. Why do you think gold prices are soaring?

So how does Social security pay out when the United States fails as you suggest with ... their not worth very much....

and yes the fund was on average 66 billion short for the last two year because of the cut but the tax reduction accounted for that and sent 115 million to the SS fund.

The SS fund is good until 2033 at current rates and will be good till 2086 at 75% the current benefit... in other words there are trillions in the account.

[HenryReardon]

Ergo, your statement that the Social Security Trust Fund had suffered “a huge reduction” of funds is incorrect. What would otherwise have reduced the reserve was offset by specific allocation, while saving or creating jobs. (Gotta keep that motor running, dontchaknow.)

So should I sell my gold now, or wait ‘til later?

The flow of funds from payrol tax deductions was reduced. That is irrefutable. That it was later replaced from general revenue is laughable.

As for jobs created by the so-called stimulus, that's an even larger joke. Look up what each one of those jobs cost.

Sell your gold? Might not be a bad idea. The government has banned the ownership of gold in the past.

[HenryReardon]

So how does Social security pay out when the United States fails as you suggest with ... their not worth very much....

The SS fund is good until 2033 at current rates and will be good till 2086 at 75% the current benefit... in other words there are trillions in the account.

If you believe that, you're incredibly naive. It will work if, and only if, interest rates remain low enough for ultimate debt reduction; if and only if there's no inflation; etc. There are too many variables. Anybody who counts on collecting social security these days is living in a dream world..

[JayHawk]

Please explain interest rates being low and that causing ultimate debt reduction... the two are not related... if you refer to our national debt and Social security. You ask me for cites. i did so using the SS funds own accounting. Please demonstrate your accurate cites who say such a thing?

If you are conflating the idea that current rates would only pay until 2033 at the 100 current benefit with the idea that we have a national debt then you are sadly confused.

[opinterph]

As for jobs created by the so-called stimulus, that's an even larger joke.

The subject of our interaction was the Payroll Tax Cut Continuation Act of 2011– not The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009. (Though both saved/created jobs.)

[HenryReardon]

The subject of our interaction was the Payroll Tax Cut Continuation Act of 2011– not The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009. (Though both saved/created jobs.)

Claiming that a legislative act saved jobs is as impossible as proving negative. Can't be done.

[HenryReardon]

Please explain interest rates being low and that causing ultimate debt reduction... the two are not related... if you refer to our national debt and Social security. You ask me for cites. i did so using the SS funds own accounting. Please demonstrate your accurate cites who say such a thing?

.

Interest rates are being held down by the Fed. This puts the cost of debt reduction at a lower level. When interest rates rise, as inevitably they must, the cost of debt reduction will rise. Economics 101.

[opinterph]

Claiming that a legislative act saved jobs is as impossible as proving negative. Can't be done.

If nothing else, I have anecdotal evidence. My business benefited from the results of that legislative act in a way that helped it survive the crisis of 2009, while many other businesses in the same industry ceased operations. The legislation saved my job.

[Kulindahr]

If you are conflating the idea that current rates would only pay until 2033 at the 100 current benefit with the idea that we have a national debt then you are sadly confused.

I'd call it "wildly confused".

[Kulindahr]

If nothing else, I have anecdotal evidence. My business benefited from the results of that legislative act in a way that helped it survive the crisis of 2009, while many other businesses in the same industry ceased operations. The legislation saved my job.

Two, possibly three, businesses here are still going concerns thanks to the stimulus: the highway they depend on is worthy of the name for the first time in twenty years.

[T-Rexx]

Eric Cantor has announced that "Plan B" will not be put to a vote because Republicans don't have enough support within their party to pass the House.

Effective today, Congress is now shut down for the Christmas holiday.

Boehner's "Plan B" delaying tactic is blowing up in his face.


http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/20/politi...iff/index.html

[JayHawk]

I know I saw that T Rex. Essentially no matter what Boehner makes a deal on it will not pass because the Tea Partiers are continuing to walk on actually legislating this country. More my way or the highway platitudes.

High Ho
High Ho
It off the cliff we go!

[TX-Beau]

Eric Cantor has announced that "Plan B" will not be put to a vote because Republicans don't have enough support within their party to pass the House.

Effective today, Congress is now shut down for the Christmas holiday.

Boehner's "Plan B" delaying tactic is blowing up in his face.


http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/20/politi...iff/index.html

But grover said we could vote for it!!!!!

[JayHawk]

No not so Tx... Grover removed his endorsement after offering it. SO did that quitter republican senator ... who was that quitter republican... Palin... no no Demint. Palin was that other quitter... man I can never figure out which republican is going to quit when its get difficult to get your way....

I guess when the going gets tough the weak run and hide.

[TX-Beau]

Jesus, it's hard to keep up with the policy prostitution on the right these days.

[JayHawk]

Yeah that entire party is in utter disarray at the moment. i would hardly be surprised to see a different Speaker and a very weak kowtowed republican party come Jan 1st....

[HenryReardon]

If nothing else, I have anecdotal evidence. My business benefited from the results of that legislative act in a way that helped it survive the crisis of 2009, while many other businesses in the same industry ceased operations. The legislation saved my job.

At a cost to the taxpayers of roughly $287,000 dollars. Hardly a bargain.