NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

[Rolyo85]

Since we no longer have any particular topic to talk about it, and the argument keeps arising in every other thread anyway, I figured I could just open a topic about it.

[opinterph]

I watched the first minute of the linked YouTube, which appears to be a video recording of a radio talk show host. I think it would be helpful if you explain the purpose of this thread in greater detail.

[Rolyo85]

Sorry, I just assumed it was obvious. The entire gun rights conversation - where should they be, what does the 2nd Amendment actually say, where is the NRA in all of this, how do we avoid tragedies like today's... That's the point of the topic. I can't edit the OP anymore though.

[juanprox]

So sad, something has to be done ….something is better then nothing.

[Rolyo85]

hastily passing legislation because "something" has to be done immediately in the face of a crisis brought us the Patriot Act.

Maybe if government was even ALLOWED to discuss gun regulation, instead of the topic being off limits because of NRA lobbying, it wouldn't have come to the point where something has to be done immediately.

[Rolyo85]

If now is not the time to have an open-eyed conversation about it, then when? When it's quieted down and the usual talking points are resumed?

[chance1]

Cause its raw

[zoltanspawn]

Cause its raw

Seven mass shootings so far this year.

Lot of raw to go around.

[Rolyo85]

That's when real change can be initiated.

[Jack Springer]

The poor children's bodies are still laying on the cold floor of the school in their own blood at this moment and the usual people are banging the drum for gun control again. Their parents haven't been let in to hold them one last time and you want to trash republicans, gun owners, anyone that doesn't toe the liberal line of restricting basic American rights.

Is it too much to ask to let it rest for one day and STHU about gun control?

The wacko's even had a pre-planned demonstration planned for such an event -- they were in front of the White House within a couple hours of the murders.

Welcome to America Rolyo. Things are different here. We have a US Constitution and a damn good Bill of Rights.

Do something productive . . . . say a prayer for the families of those that were killed and the family of the murderer.

[Telstra]

The poor children's bodies are still laying on the cold floor of the school in their own blood at this moment and the usual people are banging the drum for gun control again. Their parents haven't been let in to hold them one last time and you want to trash republicans, gun owners, anyone that doesn't toe the liberal line of restricting basic American rights.

Is it too much to ask to let it rest for one day and STHU about gun control?

The wacko's even had a pre-planned demonstration planned for such an event -- they were in front of the White House within a couple hours of the murders.

Welcome to America Rolyo. Things are different here. We have a US Constitution and a damn good Bill of Rights.

Do something productive . . . . say a prayer for the families of those that were killed and the family of the murderer.

Crocodile tears.
Now is the time to control guns while the issue is red hot.

It is too late if you wait for the issue to get cold, then people will move on to other problems without solving this one.

[chance1]

Seven mass shootings so far this year.

Lot of raw to go around.

Not sure what your point is

The shooting was 12 hours ago

[Rolyo85]

You know what? FUCK THAT! This is such vile, EVIL hypocrisy that is happening in this topic right now, I literally want to puke!

"Oh, it's too raw, it's bad to talk now, we should be praying for the families". Fucking pious double-faced cold-heartedness is what this is. Yes, we SHOULD do that, and we should say "we did everything we could to prevent this, but it still happened, so let's focus on helping and doing what we can for the families of the victims". But we CAN'T say that, can we? Because your dumbass 2nd Amendment ensures that you - the US people - HAVEN'T done everything you could to prevent this. In fact you've done a LOT to ensure things like this KEEP happening.


So yeah, let's be kind and sad and thoughtful, and united in prayer, until the bad goes away, and another day comes and it's all mundane again, so that we NEVER have to have this conversation.

It makes me sick, how low people can fall to deny whose hands have taken those children's lives.

[Jack Springer]

The problem is not guns -- it's people. Some people have no respect for human life anymore.

If you want a discussion have it about killing babies by abortion, parents not taking the time to raise their kids, single family households - kids need two parents (I'm not trying to upset anyone here -- it's just a proven fact).

The truth . . . . people kill people. If it wasn't guns it would be knives like in China, bombs like in Syria, abortions all over the world.

[zoltanspawn]

Not sure what your point is

The shooting was 12 hours ago

The point is, there are so many shootings happening that the issue is frequently raw.

What's your timeline? When the issue is no longer hurtful and safe to discuss? 48 hours? A week? Until the next bi-monthly mass shooting and we must be quiet again?

If you ask me, it's much more disrespectful to the dead to feign piety when real solutions could be identified. (And I don't mean, exclusively gun-control.)

[Jack Springer]

Nothing like a "cynical asshole" who makes a lot of sense. Thanks Loki.

[Lostlover]

I, personally, can't wait until certain demographic trends start taking place and certain people can't say "More Guns!" to tragedies like today. The silly, bullshit arguments will be a thing of the past as this country progresses, by moving away from irrational ideas. That's the only solution to events like today: time.

A GOP strategist made a great point: out of the last 6 presidential elections, the GOP has won only one by popular vote. Soon, maybe 20 years, I have a feeling that America will be like The Jetsons without certain people holding us all up. There will probably be a cure for HIV/AIDS then.

[chance1]

The point is, there are so many shootings happening that the issue is frequently raw.

What's your timeline? When the issue is no longer hurtful and safe to discuss? 48 hours? A week? Until the next bi-monthly mass shooting and we must be quiet again?

If you ask me, it's much more disrespectful to the dead to feign piety when real solutions could be identified. (And I don't mean, exclusively gun-control.)

I don't feign piety

and not getting in anyone's face the day of a massacre

is simple common sense and decency.

[Rolyo85]

The problem is not guns -- it's people. Some people have no respect for human life anymore.

If you want a discussion have it about killing babies by abortion, parents not taking the time to raise their kids, single family households - kids need two parents (I'm not trying to upset anyone here -- it's just a proven fact).

The truth . . . . people kill people. If it wasn't guns it would be knives like in China, bombs like in Syria, abortions all over the world.

Yeah, let's vague it up and throw in some right wing hot button issues like abortion, so that it's diluted enough to be safe to just TALK about without having to do anything about it. Yes, people always kill people. So we should be making it hard for them, not easier.

[zoltanspawn]

I think it requires a rational, logical discussion, not while emotions are so hot that we're calling people on the other side evil terrorists.

maybe Obama will find the courage to revisit the assault weapons ban, but personally, I find it hard to think too complexly about this when we know so little. was the guy mentally ill? did he purchase the weapons legally? did he have to pass a background check? were there warning signs that got ignored? all questions I'd need answered before crusading against the evils of gun owners.

I dunno. I think that this might just be the straw that broke the camel's back, the incident that will provoke the discussions that need to happen, and that will create some momentum for change.

It's not as though this is a unique incident per the criminal. It doesn't deserve any special scrutiny. There's lots of information available to us to make decisions about the problem we face.

It's that this is likely the tragedy so grievous that something might finally be done.

[zoltanspawn]

I don't feign piety

and not getting in anyone's face the day of a massacre

is simple common sense and decency.

So, we can discuss this after twenty-four hours?

[chance1]

So, we can discuss this after twenty-four hours?

U can do what u like

It's about having a real discussion

Not over the top BS as is the case with the OP

With facts high and emotions low

I agree with u that something will be done - and I hope it is

Little kids

It's very raw here

[zoltanspawn]

I'm curious about the solutions those who do NOT espouse gun-control would propose?

[Rolyo85]

The NRA has lobbied so hard to deregulate any and all guns it could possibly manage that I don't know what else you'd call them. Not to mention their maniacally cynical tweets and Facebook messages after some of the bigger mass shootings. Banning all guns? Probably not. Making sure a grueling screening process is needed so that you could own and carry a weapon - especially in the urban areas - hell yes! Fear mongering becomes meaningless. Frankly, if I have to chose between a few more mugged people and dead children, I'm gonna go with the mugging.

[Rolyo85]

I'm curious about the solutions those who do NOT espouse gun-control would propose?

Me too. As I said in the other topic, those were 5-year olds. They could not have been armed, so there is no way they could have defended themselves - which is the usual gun lobby response to those things. "If only they'd had more guns, this would have been avoided" is a card not in play this time. So?

[mightbe]

^You're right, OBVIOUSLY, the teachers must be armed at all times! It's so suddenly clear. Mandate that all public employees carry firearms.

And there's the NRA fantasy. It's time that they're recognized for being a quasi-terrorist group.

[JB3]

The NRA has lobbied so hard to deregulate any and all guns it could possibly manage that I don't know what else you'd call them. Not to mention their maniacally cynical tweets and Facebook messages after some of the bigger mass shootings. Banning all guns? Probably not. Making sure a grueling screening process is needed so that you could own and carry a weapon - especially in the urban areas - hell yes! Fear mongering becomes meaningless. Frankly, if I have to chose between a few more mugged people and dead children, I'm gonna go with the mugging.

Such grueling regulation has already been declared as unconstitutional. You should know that since you live in Chicago.

Reinstating the assault weapons ban is a start that actually has a chance of happening.

[Lostlover]

Obviously, people in this country need an AR15 to go shooting rabbits.

So tired of this country's backwardness.

[Ganymede4]

We need a very strict national law on gun.

Owning few guns (1-3)
hand guns only
A thorough psychological exam
No more 8 in a clip
Proper training in how to gun. The training should be closer to police training in firearms
Closing the loophole in gun show

If we can control the number of guns and who can use them. It could lower crimes involving firearms.

[Ninja108]

There are limits on the 1st amendment yet when it comes to the 2nd one,even a small reasonable thing like closing the gun show loophole or doign background checks is fought tooth and nail by the NRA.

[Rolyo85]

Yeah, cause people willfully misunderstand what the 2nd Amendment was actually written for.

[JB3]

Yeah, cause people willfully misunderstand what the 2nd Amendment was actually written for.

You can count yourself among them.

[JB3]

We need a very strict national law on gun.

Owning few guns (1-3)
hand guns only
A thorough psychological exam
No more 8 in a clip
Proper training in how to gun. The training should be closer to police training in firearms
Closing the loophole in gun show

If we can control the number of guns and who can use them. It could lower crimes involving firearms.

History and statistics prove that dead wrong. When the number of 'legal' guns has gone down, crime has actually gone up.

But that wouldn't even matter, because gun legislation on a national scale in the manner you describe is not even a possibility. The states would be the only entities that could pass such sweeping regulation.

[Rolyo85]

History and statistics prove that dead wrong. When the number of 'legal' guns has gone down, crime has actually gone up.

That's a false claim. The number of legal guns has never gone down all across the board, it's always been isolated places surrounded by places with lax gun control. The real comparison needs to always be with OTHER countries where gun controls are strict.

[AngolaZee]

Guys please no one is saying that the problem is guns what we are saying is the problem is lax gun control. Allowing all and sundry to have access to guns without going through a rigorous process is what's causing these mass shooting.

Even in China there have been massive attacks on school children by mentally ill people using swords. 110 scholchildren have been stabbed in this manner of whom 20 died since 2010. Now imagine the damage these people would have caused if they were carrying automatic weapons 110 stabbed would have read 110 DEAD. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE. No one is saying guns must be totally banned for everyone so stop saying guns dont kill people

[JB3]

That's a false claim. The number of legal guns has never gone down all across the board, it's always been isolated places surrounded by places with lax gun control. The real comparison needs to always be with OTHER countries where gun controls are strict.

It is not a false claim. Look at the situation in Chicago. When the handgun ban was instituted, violent crime using guns went up significantly. Similar results were seen across the country in any place that had similar bans.

Even if you look at other countries with strict gun control laws, you still see instances of mass murder using supposedly illegal weapons. Or, more likely, they use other weapons. (as in the massacre at a school in China using a knife)

[Rolyo85]

It is not a false claim. Look at the situation in Chicago. When the handgun ban was instituted, violent crime using guns went up significantly. Similar results were seen across the country in any place that had similar bans.

Even if you look at other countries with strict gun control laws, you still see instances of mass murder using supposedly illegal weapons. Or, more likely, they use other weapons. (as in the massacre at a school in China using a knife)

Why do you respond to me with the same thing I just rebutted? Chicago is surrounded by places with lax gun control. It is incredibly easy to just go outside and get guns. If ALL of America had Chicago's laws, do you honestly think gun deaths would go up? That's just alarmist crap.

And I say we stop with the "people would find other ways to kill" argument. You simply can't kill with the same ease using a knife that you can using a rifle.

[AngolaZee]

Even if you look at other countries with strict gun control laws, you still see instances of mass murder using supposedly illegal weapons. Or, more likely, they use other weapons. (as in the massacre at a school in China using a knife)

I have already answered the China issue above

Even in China there have been massive attacks on school children by mentally ill people using swords. 110 scholchildren have been stabbed in this manner of whom 20 died since 2010. Now imagine the damage these people would have caused if they were carrying automatic weapons 110 stabbed would have read 110 DEAD. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE. No one is saying guns must be totally banned for everyone so stop saying guns dont kill people

[JB3]

Why do you respond to me with the same thing I just rebutted? Chicago is surrounded by places with lax gun control. It is incredibly easy to just go outside and get guns. If ALL of America had Chicago's laws, do you honestly think gun deaths would go up? That's just alarmist crap.

Its incredibly easy to get guns from Mexico too.

Your naievete is showing as well; outlawing all guns wouldn't do jack shit. It would create a black market for guns that is worse than what we have now. The same principle reasons why the drug war is a failure would apply here. Outlawing it is not a solution; smart regulation is.

And I say we stop with the "people would find other ways to kill" argument. You simply can't kill with the same ease using a knife that you can using a rifle.

We'll stop when people like you acknowledge that you're wrong.

The guy in China that murdered 22 children at a school the same day of Newtown would beg to differ about the ease of killing.

[Rolyo85]

Yeah, I'm sure people from Illinois or Washington State will just drive down to Mexico for guns.

And countries all over Europe with strict gun control AND - by the way - lax drug laws show the fallacy of your claim.

[AngolaZee]

America has close to 10,000 murders a year, Australia has around 50 gun related murders. I think i'd rather live some where with gun control

[xbuzzerx]

Its incredibly easy to get guns from Mexico too.

Your naievete is showing as well; outlawing all guns wouldn't do jack shit. It would create a black market for guns that is worse than what we have now. The same principle reasons why the drug war is a failure would apply here. Outlawing it is not a solution; smart regulation is.

Do you have ANY basis in the real world to show that this would happen? Are Europe and other regions with strict gun control absolutely overrun with violent crime from black market weapons?

I'll tell you why we "don't acknowledge that we're wrong", it's because every single thing the pro-gun side says about why absolutely nothing would change a thing seems entirely made up on the spot and requires us to accept that everything in the U.S. will happen the complete opposite of how it happened everywhere else.

[cgymike]

America has close to 10,000 murders a year, Australia has around 50. I think i'd rather live some where with gun control

America has a great deal more people than Australia. Also their culture and legal system is vastly different.

[Rolyo85]

America has a great deal more people than Australia. Also their culture and legal system is vastly different.

Does America have 200 times more people? And the whole culture and legal system thing is an empty argument. Obviously there is a problem with the current culture and legal system and it needs changing if people are to stop mass shooting each other, no?

[Just_Believe18]

No one is advocating for the banning of all hand guns here. No one is saying we should take away guns from everybody. So why are there certain members on this forum that are so defensive about gun control over massacres like this? We can make an enormous difference in regulating the sales and distribution of guns in this country that would protect citizens while safeguarding the rights of armed citizens. I just don't understand why "pro-gun," NRA advocates don't want to have a conversation about this.

If condolences and prayers are all you want to offer as a solution to these mass murder/suicides, then you're saying we can do nothing. I find that fucking unacceptable to do nothing. So let's talk about it, and let's work towards a solution that decreases the chances of this ever happening again.

[AngolaZee]

America has a great deal more people than Australia. Also their culture and legal system is vastly different.

America = 311 million therefore 1 gun murder for every 31 000 people
Australia = 22 million therefore 1 gun murder for every 440 000 people

BIG DIFFERENCE

Extrapolate 311 million / 22 million = 14

14 X 50(Australian murders) should equate to 700 gun murders in USA not 10 000

[AngolaZee]

Gun control ≠ Gun Ban

Stop twisting the gun control argument to serve yours

[AngolaZee]

I just don't understand why "pro-gun," NRA advocates don't want to have a conversation about this.

We both know it has to do with revenue from gun sales, that's their crowning glory in life profiting from mass killings of innocents

[Rolyo85]

Yeah, I just don't believe the whole "Americans are more violent and it just won't work with them without guns", as if it's some drug that they're hooked on and will die without.

[T-Rexx]

The guy in China that murdered 22 children at a school the same day of Newtown would beg to differ about the ease of killing.

Nobody in China murdered any school kids on December 14.

A man stabbed 22 kids on December 14. Not one of the kids died.

That's because the would-be murderer only had access to a knife - not an assault rifle.

You seem to be trying to make a case that banning access to assault weapons would be futile because knives are just as lethal. If that were true, there would have been no reason to invent the rifle, would there?