The 9/11 attacks

[Harke the Boeotarch]

The true face of Islam, allegedly.

[mikey3000]

It's a fact that WTC 7 was intentionally "pulled", just a few hours after the attacks.

[eastofeden]

Have I learned my lesson? Uh...OK...Yes.

No Comment.

[refujiunderground]

well, there were some significant things that happened before and during that day.

i do remember praying, this was back when i was a theist fanatic thanks to the catholic school that i went to , the night before that i wanted something big to happen and i didn't care how good or bad it was. anything to make my life, which was boring and becoming overwhelmingly unbearable, to change. what a coincidence.

on the day of, before the plane hit, i was walking into school for my first period class and i had this song in my head.



well, went to class and then at the end of my 3rd period music class, the music director comes in and let's us know that a plane hit the wtc. when i saw the towers with those huge gaping holes, i had the feeling that i had to go to the bathroom to take a shit. my nerves were shot. seriously thought that the next thing that was going to happen was a nuke was going to be dropped and that would be the end. when the same thing happened in washington where they showed somewhere with smoke rising from it on cnn even though they didn't know where it was coming from or what got hit, that just made matters worse. i saw bush when he was down in florida reading to those kids and then he said that "america was attacked" when it was live. i saw the footage where they had somewhere in pakistan celebrating and then it just hit me like a bright idea.

THIS SHIT WAS SET UP BY THE GOVERNMENT. THIS WASN'T A TERRORIST ATTACK. then i realized that mr. bush was the brain behind this shit. after all, he was the one that had everything to gain. then i saw how within a short time span, they had all the suspects and were pointing fingers. it was like a set up. i felt and still to my heart and mind believe that george bush and the usa government set that whole entire thing up. they did everything according to plan and made the perfect cover story even though there were so many loopholes and red flags that didn't make any sense. they were going to say osama did it and he got these guys to hijack some planes to terrorize america. then the days after that, mr. bush and his team used the then vunerablity of americas and capitalized on it. they did the whole "we're america", "islam is evil", "christianity is good", and the whole nine. they pretty much turned it into a holy war and bush had everything to gain from that shit. 9/11 is why he won a second term. otherwise, he would have been a 1 term president. a lot of people hated bush before 9/11 and he had won some sympathizers with the whole "you'll be safer under my watch because we're going to stop terrorism".

[justaguy]

then i realized that mr. bush was the brain behind this shit. after all, he was the one that had everything to gain.

I believe the exact opposite. George Bush had everything to LOSE not to gain. For a start, if he was ever found out, he would have been executed. A set up would have required a cast of thousands. What you are suggesting is that Bush would have had to place his life on the line in the vain and very small hope that not one of these thousands of cast members would ever squeal. The chances of that happening, that not one has even told their spouse, or blabbed in a drunken frenzy, or exposed the (so-called) truth for millions of dollars, while also becoming the most famous person of our times, is next to nil.

It is far, far, to infinity, more likely that some terrorists, took some flying lessons, hijacked some planes and flew them into buildings, as the overwhelming evidence suggests.

[mikey3000]

Note: The building was not made as strong as some people like to think, coupled with the fact that debris (not just little pieces) from the twin towers was collapsing on WTC7, and if your referring to that "pull it" line, the guy who said that knew that the building couldn't be saved, and wanted the firemen pulled out of salvaging the building.

And the fires in 7, that came from the collapsing towers breaking propane pipes (for emergency power), causing the fire, along with other damage (not bombs) weakening the building, which is all that's needed to bring it down (nothing has to melt).

Really? I have some swamp land you may wanna buy then.

[JayHawk]

I love these kinda threads Cotton... it allows us to see who Jubs with a tin foil hat on....



As for me I was in Faslane Scotland and I watched the news as the first plane struck then took a nap... it was a long few days after that...

[Rickrock]

I wasn't in New York, I was in Cleveland at work. First someone's relative called them and told them that the World Trade Center had been hit by a plane. We all thought it was an unusual accident. Then we heard that a second plane had hit. Then we heard that a plane had hit the Pentagon. That is when we knew it wasn't an accident. Immediately after, we were told that an order had gone out to evacuate the downtown area and that there was a plane approaching the area. That was the plane that later went down in Pennsylvania. We were told to use the stairs and not the elevators. I was on the thirty-second floor. By the time I reached the street, my legs were wobbly and could hardly hold me up. The train station I had come into town through was in the basement of another skyscraper which was also evacuated and closed, so I couldn't take the train to my car which was parked in the suburbs. A co-worker had driven to work and took a carload of us to our respective cars parked in the outskirts of the city. Later there was a report of a panicked parent who had rushed to a school to pick up their child. They had stopped in the school driveway and left their car door open as they ran into the school to pick up their child. My leg muscles were sore for about three days after that because of all of the stairs I had gone down.

[refujiunderground]

I believe the exact opposite. George Bush had everything to LOSE not to gain. For a start, if he was ever found out, he would have been executed. A set up would have required a cast of thousands. What you are suggesting is that Bush would have had to place his life on the line in the vain and very small hope that not one of these thousands of cast members would ever squeal. The chances of that happening, that not one has even told their spouse, or blabbed in a drunken frenzy, or exposed the (so-called) truth for millions of dollars, while also becoming the most famous person of our times, is next to nil.

It is far, far, to infinity, more likely that some terrorists, took some flying lessons, hijacked some planes and flew them into buildings, as the overwhelming evidence suggests.

and do you think that the government is going to prosecute itself if it does any wrongdoing?

here's the thing about what you said which i also knew on 9/11 and the days after. people would NEVER believe that bush or the us government would do such a thing. i knew that this would take off as soon as the whole "god bless america" and patriotism took off and went into full swing. for a minute after that, you couldn't say squat bad about bush or america or you were seen as unamerican.

but when you look @ it, bush had way more to gain than to lose. the economy was going right to shit, there was a recession that was going on in 2001 some months after he took office, and things were going bad. a lot of people didn't like him especially after he stole the election in 2000. 9/11 saved his ass. he basically made billions of dollars off of it. he secured his political career. he basically was able to finish off what his father started with the gulf war taking out saddam and securing the oil reserves outthere. he had more to gain than osama would. osama had NOTHING to gain from doing what he did. that would have been suicide. you think a billionaire is going to risk his fortune fucking with a country that could destory his ass? it makes no sense.

hell, the us kicked a whole lot of propaganda during that time too. folks ate it up.

?

[mikey3000]

Yeah, cause we all know government fraud doesn't happen. LOL!

"Operation Northwoods was a series of false-flag proposals that originated within the United States government in 1962, but were rejected by the Kennedy administration.[2] The proposals called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), or other operatives, to commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities and elsewhere. These acts of terrorism were to be blamed on Cuba in order to create public support for a war against that nation, which had recently become communist under Fidel Castro.[3] One part of Operation Northwoods was to "develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington".

Operation Northwoods proposals included hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. It stated:


The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.

Several other proposals were included within Operation Northwoods, including real or simulated actions against various U.S. military and civilian targets. The plan was drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, signed by Chairman Lyman Lemnitzer and sent to the Secretary of Defense. Although part of the U.S. government's Cuban Project anti-communist initiative, Operation Northwoods was never officially accepted; it was authorized by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, but then rejected by President John F. Kennedy.

According to currently released documentation, none of the operations became active under the auspices of the Operation Northwoods proposals."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

[Saybrooke]

I was ten when it happened! They pulled us out of the school saying we had a fire still and called all the parents to come get us!

It was scary

[mikey3000]

LOL! Like the kid in the video is some kind of expert? Bwaa haa haa!!! He is contrary just to build a name for himself. Truth is some people can't wrap their heads around an idea that their government is not totally honest with them and will deny anything NOT main stream, just to conform. Sheeple. Experts around the world (not just America, but around the world) have aggreed that it was pulled.

But most on here dispell the possibility because, well, they're not American sources.

[mikey3000]

[rareboy]

Oh for fuck's sakes.

Enough with WTC7 conspiracies already.

If anyone knows the least about structural failures, you would already know that the building collapsed from the effects of heat on the structural steel after hours of uncontrolled fires.

A large, independent panel of real experts were able to analyze and model the failure. Please read the following and get the fuck over the idea that the government thought that it would be fun to pull another building down that day.

http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

http://www.structuremag.org/Archives...sanz-Nov07.pdf

[star-warrior]

We watched it on tv. I was thinking, jet fuel, explosion, people incinerated.

[rareboy]

^ You are welcome. It makes me crazy that people gravitate toward the absurd in order to feed their paranoid fantasies.

In this case, if people understand that the structure of the lower floors was highly eccentric and without a lot of redundancy for redistribution of loading...they would stop with all the 'govamint did it' nonsense. Sometimes the simplest answer is the truth.

I really do recommend that people read the Structural mag article. For structural engineers or those interested in structures behaviour....it lays out the events and the sequence of failure as clearly and simply as anyone could.

The collapse of WTC7, incidentally has led to a lot of changes in steel structure design around the world since 2001.

[jktoooo]

I understand how you say "allegedly," so I'm not fighting, just sharing:

What happened on 9/11 is actually heresy in Islam.
Look up the Quran 8:39, for it explains how God never loves the starter of wars.

actually it's not.

The qur'an reads like someone who is bipolar, hence, Muhammad (Peace NOT be upon him) was bipolar.

One cannot read the qur'an and understand Islam completely. It MUST be coupled with hadiths AND surat rasuallah (the biography of the "prophet"). There are also tafsirs and a whole bunch of other supplements that people generally don't understand what is taught in Islam.

Whatever the case, you could remove the qur'an and look ONLY at the life of Muhammad, see how he led his life and you will see why Islam is as fvcked up as it is. Muhammad was a disturbed individual who had married a six year old, had sex with at least two of his wives ON THE VERY DAY he and his gang of marauders killed their husbands and brothers (YES, that would generally be considered rape), he led and fought in over about 70 OFFENSIVE raids and wars on innocent villages and peoples (mostly cause they wouldn't accept Islam but also to get steal their properties), he oversaw the slaughtering of Jews (at one point over 600 slaughtered AFTER they peacefully surrendered, the Jews of Banu Qurayzah), this type of non-sense goes on and on.

I have gone the rounds many times debating people about Islam, I have studied and read thousands upon thousands of hours of Islamic teachings.

It is not good what you find. No matter how many "peaceful" and "tolerant" teachings you find, there are about 100 violent and disgusting for every one peaceful and tolerant teaching.

It's sad. Muslims are the first victim of Islam. People just don't understand. I USED to be one of those people that made excuses for Islam. "Those terrorists take islam out of Context. Islam is a religion of peace." I said that a bunch of times, BEFORE and NOT KNOWING what exactly islam teaches in it's entirety.

(watch, you will see all the progressives foam at the mouth at me for stating what I just did).


But back to the original question, it was certainly a day of sadness. Very scary, it felt like the entire country was under attack. it was also very gloomy to not see or hear a thing in the sky. I live fairly close to an airport and it was spooky not to have the airplanes coming and going as they normally did. If there is an afterlife, I hope those 19 PIGS are being tortured for the evil they committed.

[Laufey]

I think it's highly unlikely it was planned by the US government.

But it is still kinda strange that they managed to execute it so well (well other than one plane not reaching it's target). It is quite possible that they let it happen so they could take advantage of it. I remember back then a lot of people here were surprised that the world's greatest military country could be attacked so easily at multiple locations.

And 9/11 didn't happen because of Islam or because those people hated freedom. It happened because of US interference in the middle east (supporting Israel, military presence in Saudi-Arabia and sanctions against Iraq). The religious fanatics were just the tool used to execute attacks which had political motives. And what's suppose to be the solution? More interference in the region

I think it's extremely sad how many people, especially Americans, still think it was just about religion and hating freedom. Understandable though since that's the most common explanation the public gets from politicians and the media.

[gsdx]

If anyone knows the least about structural failures, you would already know that the building collapsed from the effects of heat on the structural steel after hours of uncontrolled fires.

There was a discussion here a while ago with AndrewD, I believe, who was convinced that the WTC was an inside job with a controlled 'implosion'. I remember trying to convince him how impossible that would be and the months of work which would be required to achieve it. When he still didn't believe me, I tried to convince him that it would never have survived the collisions. Still, there are some 'out there' who will never be convinced otherwise.

[refujiunderground]

That's the problem with those "truthers" though. What, 19 nobodies come over, and cause all this mess?
"But that's the only way it could happen in a free society," suggests Michael Shermer.

I honestly hate that high school kid from Loose Change, he's just a
punk, especially in that Conspiracy Files show on The Third Tower!

dude, i didn't disrespect any of you guys that believe the government's story about what happened that day. just because you FEEL that you're right doesn't mean that you are. i have an opinion, you have an opinion. respect it just like how i respect yours.

[refujiunderground]

actually it's not.

The qur'an reads like someone who is bipolar, hence, Muhammad (Peace NOT be upon him) was bipolar.

One cannot read the qur'an and understand Islam completely. It MUST be coupled with hadiths AND surat rasuallah (the biography of the "prophet"). There are also tafsirs and a whole bunch of other supplements that people generally don't understand what is taught in Islam.

Whatever the case, you could remove the qur'an and look ONLY at the life of Muhammad, see how he led his life and you will see why Islam is as fvcked up as it is. Muhammad was a disturbed individual who had married a six year old, had sex with at least two of his wives ON THE VERY DAY he and his gang of marauders killed their husbands and brothers (YES, that would generally be considered rape), he led and fought in over about 70 OFFENSIVE raids and wars on innocent villages and peoples (mostly cause they wouldn't accept Islam but also to get steal their properties), he oversaw the slaughtering of Jews (at one point over 600 slaughtered AFTER they peacefully surrendered, the Jews of Banu Qurayzah), this type of non-sense goes on and on.

I have gone the rounds many times debating people about Islam, I have studied and read thousands upon thousands of hours of Islamic teachings.

It is not good what you find. No matter how many "peaceful" and "tolerant" teachings you find, there are about 100 violent and disgusting for every one peaceful and tolerant teaching.

It's sad. Muslims are the first victim of Islam. People just don't understand. I USED to be one of those people that made excuses for Islam. "Those terrorists take islam out of Context. Islam is a religion of peace." I said that a bunch of times, BEFORE and NOT KNOWING what exactly islam teaches in it's entirety.

(watch, you will see all the progressives foam at the mouth at me for stating what I just did).


But back to the original question, it was certainly a day of sadness. Very scary, it felt like the entire country was under attack. it was also very gloomy to not see or hear a thing in the sky. I live fairly close to an airport and it was spooky not to have the airplanes coming and going as they normally did. If there is an afterlife, I hope those 19 PIGS are being tortured for the evil they committed.

please stop, dude. whatever happened that day doesn't give you the right to disrespect muslims or islam or your ignorance towards it or to show your prejudice/racism. i don't know what made you and some of these other people think that you can disrespect islam religion or muslims worldwide, arabs or folks from the middle eastern religion for this shit. even if the government story is true, it doesn't give you the right.


that's one thing that i hate about 9/11. you have folks basically using whatever happened on 9/11 as an excuse to be ignorant. "all muslims are bad. islam is horrible. womp, womp, womp." this is the same reason why we had muslims and people of arab decent being hate crime victims right after 9/11 because we have guys like you around thinking that you can be ignorant or whatever.

i find it funny how i see some of these folks ready to trash islam and muslim people because of what ONE person who happens to be islamic or muslim does. yet when a white person such as the guy in colorado that shot up a movie theater or shots up a school or kills their whole entire family, if someone decided to go like white people are crazy and evil look @ what that white guy did to the movie theater, you'd cry racism.

[rareboy]

I would say that I am among those who believe that the US government had good intelligence that something was likely really going to happen on US soil.....and I think that while they may have underestimated the scale of the event, there were indeed those that thought that an attack on US soil be a necessary and useful pretext to war.....with Iraq.

The object being, of course, that if Iraq could be toppled and the US could install a more democratic regime....it would destabilize Iran's influence in the middle east and under the Bush Doctrine...democracy would break out all over.

In the in-depth articles since, there was much discussion about how the Pentagon and military were fearful that without some very obvious and clear threat to America in the post Soviet era....there were likely to be huge reductions in military force and a slow-down in bringing newer and fancier weaponry into use.

There were a huge number of corporations and countries that stood to lose a lot if the US was not shifted back to war footing.


I remember reading that Rumsfeld was furious that the focus would be on Afghanistan instead of Iraq.

[jktoooo]

please stop, dude. whatever happened that day doesn't give you the right to disrespect muslims or islam or your ignorance towards it.

that's one thing that i hate about 9/11. you have folks basically using whatever happened on 9/11 as an excuse to be ignorant. "all muslims are bad. islam is horrible. womp, womp, womp."

Telling the TRUTH about ISLAM is not "disrespect". Since when is telling truth "disrespect". That's the problem with today's world.....WAY TO POLITICALLY CORRECT. It's like communism.....can't say this, can't say that.....it's non-sense and ridiculous!!!!!!

I am so sick of this Political Correctness non-sense!!!!!!

[xbuzzerx]

I would say that I am among those who believe that the US government had good intelligence that something was likely really going to happen on US soil.....and I think that while they may have underestimated the scale of the event, there were indeed those that thought that an attack on US soil be a necessary and useful pretext to war.....with Iraq.

The object being, of course, that if Iraq could be toppled and the US could install a more democratic regime....it would destabilize Iran's influence in the middle east and under the Bush Doctrine...democracy would break out all over.

In the in-depth articles since, there was much discussion about how the Pentagon and military were fearful that without some very obvious and clear threat to America in the post Soviet era....there were likely to be huge reductions in military force and a slow-down in bringing newer and fancier weaponry into use.

There were a huge number of corporations and countries that stood to lose a lot if the US was not shifted back to war footing.


I remember reading that Rumsfeld was furious that the focus would be on Afghanistan instead of Iraq.

Yeah, if there wasn't an element of "oh shit we fucked up" to 9/11 then I see no reason why there would have been shredding of ATC documents.

[xbuzzerx]

Telling the TRUTH about ISLAM is not "disrespect". Since when is telling truth "disrespect". That's the problem with today's world.....WAY TO POLITICALLY CORRECT. It's like communism.....can't say this, can't say that.....it's non-sense and ridiculous!!!!!!

I think most of us who don't care about religion simply acknowledge that you can take words from virtually any religion, even Buddhism, and apply it to force or violence against your enemies, and every religion HAS been used that way, without exception, throughout history.

And Christianity doesn't lack either for tons of versus that the overwhelming majority of Christians completely ignore, but which are pretty vile and disgusting to think about applying in real life in the modern world.

What's prejudicial to me is when people posture as if the Qu'ran alone has this distinction.

[refujiunderground]

Telling the TRUTH about ISLAM is not "disrespect". Since when is telling truth "disrespect". That's the problem with today's world.....WAY TO POLITICALLY CORRECT. It's like communism.....can't say this, can't say that.....it's non-sense and ridiculous!!!!!!

I am so sick of this Political Correctness non-sense!!!!!!

WHAT TRUTH? do you know anything about islam?

and keep in mind, just because you buy into the propaganda that that's been on the news since 9/11 doesn't mean that it's the truth. may i ask you. what is your religion or belief if you have any?

read a book and educate yourself on something before you speak on it.

and keep your prejudice and racism towards yourself.

[Laufey]

Telling the TRUTH about ISLAM is not "disrespect". Since when is telling truth "disrespect". That's the problem with today's world.....WAY TO POLITICALLY CORRECT. It's like communism.....can't say this, can't say that.....it's non-sense and ridiculous!!!!!!

I am so sick of this Political Correctness non-sense!!!!!!

You really think US foreign policy had nothing to do with 9/11 happening?

US foreign policy has nothing to do with many Muslims hating America?

[jktoooo]

WHAT TRUTH? do you know anything about islam?

and keep in mind, just because you buy into the propaganda that that's been on the news since 9/11 doesn't mean that it's the truth. may i ask you. what is your religion or belief if you have any?

read a book and educate yourself on something before you speak on it.

and keep your prejudice and racism towards yourself.

Uh....read my previous write up. then you can say something.

[jktoooo]

You really think US foreign policy had nothing to do with 9/11 happening?

US foreign policy has nothing to do with many Muslims hating America?

Muslims have been hating non-muslims for 1300+ years. The Qur'an states that the world must all become Islamic. That's why it spreads with such a violent force, almost everywhere there is Islam there is violence.

US foreign policy has been stupid and ignorant for 100 years or so, but it's not the cause of Muslims hating America, only a small part.

[xbuzzerx]

Muslims have been hating non-muslims for 1300+ years. The Qur'an states that the world must all become Islamic. That's why it spreads with such a violent force, almost everywhere there is Islam there is violence.

US foreign policy has been stupid and ignorant for 100 years or so, but it's not the cause of Muslims hating America, only a small part.

You're aware that Osama bin Laden had an actual list of grievances against the U.S., correct?

Read it. Very little of it has to do with "WE'RE MUSLIM AND WE'RE ABOUT DAT HATING U"

[jktoooo]

You're aware that Osama bin Laden had an actual list of grievances against the U.S., correct?

Read it. Very little of it has to do with "WE'RE MUSLIM AND WE'RE ABOUT DAT HATING U"

Okay, you know what?

You cannot talk to those who have no intention of listening.

[Laufey]

No it's the majority of the reason.

Which western nations have been attacked after 9/11? Spain and the Uk.

There are many free nations out there... but the ones with high risk are the ones which are murdering Muslims.

I'm pretty sure Christians have killed more Muslims than the other way around. Well at least in modern times.

It was made clear in statements before and after 9/11 that Al-qaeda attacked the US because of the three reasons I mentioned earlier.

[xbuzzerx]

Okay, you know what?

You cannot talk to those who have no intention of listening.

You're making claims which are lazy and require us to ignore other evidence. You answered a question about whether U.S. policy had anything to do with 9/11 and you came back basically saying Islam is about hate and has been hating for 1300 years and doesn't need any other reason.

So why did Osama Bin Laden make a list of policy grievances about he U.S.'s military presence in the Middle East? Why bother? We all know he "really" meant we're Muslim and we need no excuse to hate people right? That's what you're saying.

[jktoooo]

No it's the majority of the reason.

Which western nations have been attacked after 9/11? Spain and the Uk.

There are many free nations out there... but the ones with high risk are the ones which are murdering Muslims.

I'm pretty sure Christians have killed more Muslims than the other way around. Well at least in modern times.

It was made clear in statements before and after 9/11 that Al-qaeda attacked the US because of the three reasons I mentioned earlier.

This is why I stopped debating people about Islam. THEY KNOW NOTHING (and that's not an insult to people) about what Islam teaches. They only have the blinders of "America is evil, we are the root of all evil and what's wrong in the world today."

You can't have a discussion about Islam with people having that view, and justifying that view by touting it as Osama Bin Ladin did.

[xbuzzerx]

This is why I stopped debating people about Islam. THEY KNOW NOTHING (and that's not an insult to people) about what Islam teaches. They only have the blinders of "America is evil, we are the root of all evil and what's wrong in the world today."

You can't have a discussion about Islam with people having that view, and justifying that view by touting it as Osama Bin Ladin did.

But you can have a rational discussion with someone who mirrors that exact viewpoint, except that Islam is bad and no one who ever has any conflict with Muslims did anything wrong?

[Laufey]

This is why I stopped debating people about Islam. THEY KNOW NOTHING (and that's not an insult to people) about what Islam teaches. They only have the blinders of "America is evil, we are the root of all evil and what's wrong in the world today."

You can't have a discussion about Islam with people having that view, and justifying that view by touting it as Osama Bin Ladin did.

I think it's pretty clear by now that you are the most ignorant person in this thread.

And being critical of US foreign policy is far from hating all Americans.

[jktoooo]

I think it's pretty clear by now that you are the most ignorant person in this thread.

And being critical of US foreign policy is far from hating all Americans.

How is KNOWING about something (my knowledge of Islam), how is that being ignorant about something? Please tell me.

[xbuzzerx]

How is KNOWING about something (my knowledge of Islam), how is that being ignorant about something? Please tell me.

I have never said you know nothing about Islam. I take you at your word that you studied it for many, many hours.

However that's an entirely separate issue from saying that U.S. foreign policy had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 whatsoever. You were asked that question and you sorta dodged it.

[jktoooo]

But you can have a rational discussion with someone who mirrors that exact viewpoint, except that Islam is bad and no one who ever has any conflict with Muslims did anything wrong?

The point is most people won't tolerate any discussion at all that Islam may teach many bad things (monsters like Osama bin Ladin have been immersed THEIR WHOLE LIFE in hate....they just need an excuse....). Most of these same people claim to be "open minded" and "tolerant", yet THEY are the most intolerant people. It's ridiculous.

[xbuzzerx]

The point is most people won't tolerate any discussion at all that Islam may teach many bad things (monsters like Osama bin Ladin have been immersed THEIR WHOLE LIFE in hate....they just need an excuse....). Most of these same people claim to be "open minded" and "tolerant", yet THEY are the most intolerant people. It's ridiculous.

You wrote me off as not worth discussing with when what I said was that every single religion has justified violence and has pretty vile things somewhere in its canonical or quasi-canonical teachings.

We live in a world where things like the Crusades and the Inquisitions are part of our real, actual reality and history. So my point is, you're out on a limb saying that something special about Islam or the Qu'ran empowers nasty acts.

[Laufey]

Ignoring facts about 9/11 is a good example.

Ignorant people are usually stubborn about not admitting when they are wrong. So they continue to spew their crap mostly based on feeling rather than facts.

[jktoooo]

You wrote me off as not worth discussing with when what I said was that every single religion has justified violence and has pretty vile things somewhere in its canonical or quasi-canonical teachings.

We live in a world where things like the Crusades and the Inquisitions are part of our real, actual reality and history. So my point is, you're out on a limb saying that something special about Islam or the Qu'ran empowers nasty acts.

Okay, let's take the crusades as you brought it up. the Crusades were a DIRECT result of Aggressive Islamic attacks on Christians traveling to the holy lands. It was a RESPONSE to the aggression they were already facing. SECOND about the Crusades is the Christians who were killing others were going AGAINST the teachings of what Jesus taught. They were taking his teachings OUT of context of what jesus taught which is no violence and to turn the other cheek, basically. That's not the case with Islam. Islamic teachings are to fight, kill (and enslave non muslims into second class citizenry) until Islam is the only religion on earth. So, yes, I stand by my statements that say Islam teaches violence, it has for 1300 years. I'll even go further and say that the hatred taught in Islam is a large reason why 9/11 happened, because they're taught to hate, everything else is just an excuse to hate. America. Israel, "the western world".....it's all just an excuse.

- - - Updated - - -

Ignoring facts about 9/11 is a good example.

Ignorant people are usually stubborn about not admitting when they are wrong. So they continue to spew their crap mostly based on feeling rather than facts.

the "facts"? hilarious! You mean the Michael Moore fahrenheit 911 "facts"? Are those the "facts" you are referring to?

[Laufey]

No I'm speaking of statements directly from Al-Qaeeda.

I haven't seen Fahrenheit 911. I don't care much for Moore or left-right arguing in the US.

[xbuzzerx]

Okay, let's take the crusades as you brought it up. the Crusades were a DIRECT result of Aggressive Islamic attacks on Christians traveling to the holy lands. It was a RESPONSE to the aggression they were already facing. SECOND about the Crusades is the Christians who were killing others were going AGAINST the teachings of what Jesus taught. They were taking his teachings OUT of context of what jesus taught which is no violence and to turn the other cheek, basically. That's not the case with Islam. Islamic teachings are to fight, kill (and enslave non muslims into second class citizenry) until Islam is the only religion on earth. So, yes, I stand by my statements that say Islam teaches violence, it has for 1300 years. I'll even go further and say that the hatred taught in Islam is a large reason why 9/11 happened, because they're taught to hate, everything else is just an excuse to hate. America. Israel, "the western world".....it's all just an excuse.

Do you really, really, honestly believe that the Kings of Europe went to the massive expense of the crusades to protect tourists and not to control the massively lucrative trade hub of the spice trade between east and west? The Middle East was the most advanced, wealthiest part of that corner of the world at that time. That had nothing to do with it? The Kings of Europe were just angry over some tourist incidents? Really?

the "facts"? hilarious! You mean the Michael Moore fahrenheit 911 "facts"? Are those the "facts" you are referring to?

We're talking about the facts that the U.S. has a long history of imperialist intervention in the Middle East which has created a lot of angry sentiment, including and not limited to propping up dictators or buying off corrupt royal families in exchange for economic or military advantages and then helping to arm and support those regimes to stay in power as quid-pro-quo. Like I said, read Osama Bin Ladens list of grievances and then tell me foreign policy had absolutely nothing to do with why they were targetting the U.S. and not Denmark or Switzerland or Albania. According to your logic those should all be equally desirable targets if foreign policy has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[refujiunderground]

Uh....read my previous write up. then you can say something.

what is your religion and belief if you have any? answer the question.

[jktoooo]

No I'm speaking of statements directly from Al-Qaeeda.

I haven't seen Fahrenheit 911. I don't care much for Moore or left-right arguing in the US.

I've read the statements before, it's been awhile, but what I can say is he was full of hatred before he made his declaration.

That hatred he had in him once he was indoctrinated and brainwashed with from when he was a little kid. Everything else at that point becomes an excuse. I gotta go. I have no energy for debating Islam and what role it has in today's Islamic societies (and it has far reaching affects), and debating with people who just won't listen, it does no good. No ill will towards you or anyone else here.

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Do you really, really, honestly believe that the Kings of Europe went to the massive expense of the crusades to protect tourists and not to control the massively lucrative trade hub of the spice trade between east and west? The Middle East was the most advanced, wealthiest part of that corner of the world at that time. That had nothing to do with it? The Kings of Europe were just angry over some tourist incidents? Really?



We're talking about the facts that the U.S. has a long history of imperialist intervention in the Middle East which has created a lot of angry sentiment, including and not limited to propping up dictators or buying off corrupt royal families in exchange for economic or military advantages and then helping to arm and support those regimes to stay in power as quid-pro-quo. Like I said, read Osama Bin Ladens list of grievances and then tell me foreign policy had absolutely nothing to do with why they were targetting the U.S. and not Denmark or Switzerland or Albania. According to your logic those should all be equally desirable targets if foreign policy has absolutely nothing to do with it.

ugghhh.......ditto what I wrote to Geiri85...... chow.

[xbuzzerx]

I've read the statements before, it's been awhile, but what I can say is he was full of hatred before he made his declaration.

That hatred he had in him once he was indoctrinated and brainwashed with from when he was a little kid. Everything else at that point becomes an excuse. I gotta go. I have no energy for debating Islam and what role it has in today's Islamic societies (and it has far reaching affects), and debating with people who just won't listen, it does no good. No ill will towards you or anyone else here.

You mean the hatred back when we trained and armed him and he was our ally against the Soviets? That hatred?

[jktoooo]

what is your religion and belief if you have any? answer the question.

I'd say agnostic. I'm not religious by any means, don't pray none of that stuff but I believe in god, not the bible god or any of that stuff, but certainly a higher power. Also, I'm american indian so to some degree some of my beliefs are rooted in what we, as navajo, believe. But even then I question a lot of that stuff cause some of it doesn't seem believable to me.

anyway, gotta go all. this drains my energy.....really.

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You mean the hatred back when we trained and armed him and he was our ally against the Soviets? That hatred?

uggghhhh......just no energy to deal with people who won't don't and refuse to even consider other alternatives. geez. bye.

[Laufey]

You always get tired of us when faced with facts you can't answer.

Both Saddam and Osama were allies with the US to begin with.

If I remember correctly Osama also lived in a pretty American-friendly environment, which he later rebelled against. So he was never brainwashed as a child.

[jktoooo]

You always get tired of us when faced with facts you can't answer.
.

No. You can't talk to those who listen. You just can't. anyway, gotta go. off to run errands.