if not for Israel's Iron Dome system, the fight would be much worst ??

[Telstra]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_891...ature=youtu.be

[rareboy]

Yes. The fighting would have been much worse.

[cockbrain]

Worse as in even?

[Kulindahr]

Worse as in even?

"Even"?

No, for it to be "even", Hamas would have to only aim at military targets, instead of randomly launching into Israel.

[Laufey]

Although I'm more on the Palestinian side I admit that in some ways both sides gain from one being so much weaker.

So in the long run both nations will need to have peaceful agreements when giving Palestine the tools to become a strong independent country. This is something Israel has to do in the long run so it can improve it's relations with the region and avoid future wars.

The US as a biased country towards Israel will never be able to negotiate peace between the two. It's pretty pointless to take that path again and again.

The UN thing is mostly symbolic and won't change things on the ground.

[Telstra]

Worse as in even?

90 or 99% of the rockets were intercepted and exploded out of harms way.
Otherwise there would be a lot more damage in Israel hence israel would have drop much more bombs trying to stop the rockets.

[Mariatenebre]

Although I'm more on the Palestinian side I admit that in some ways both sides gain from one being so much weaker.

So in the long run both nations will need to have peaceful agreements when giving Palestine the tools to become a strong independent country. This is something Israel has to do in the long run so it can improve it's relations with the region and avoid future wars.

The US as a biased country towards Israel will never be able to negotiate peace between the two. It's pretty pointless to take that path again and again.

The UN thing is mostly symbolic and won't change things on the ground.

Yes like many Liberals you support the Palestinians. The racist gay murderors who want the eradication of Jews and who do not have a legitamate claim to this nation or land. It is Israel which has always sought peace with the Pallys. However the Pallys don't want peace they want blood. Keep defending the people who would cut your face off.

[Laufey]

You convinced me.

All countries which don't support gay rights should be occupied by the ones that do.

Really cheap move of you to play the gay card. Just because I believe the Palestinian's deserve to be independent it does not have to mean I'm a fan of their culture. Plus oppressing and isolating nations will always increase extremism. It's pretty ironic to keep them imprisoned on their own land and then complain about them being extremists.

And please don't generalize.

[JayHawk]

Well they are fairly imprisoned... but when they seek to smuggle things in they don't smuggle medicine or foods... nope they smuggle missiles.

They are not imprisoned on their own land. They don't have a land. If they didn't actually desire the demise of Israel they could have been living in relative success and prosperity with the Jews, Bedouin and Arabs that live in Israel.

[Benvolio]

Geiri85, Almost everyone agrees the Palestinians should be independent, known as the two state solution. Israel does not want Palestine and Israel to be a single country, since the Jews would be in a minority. But until the Palestinians stop attacking Israel, it is unreasonable to expect it to withdraw from Palestine. They did withdraw from Gaza and it has simply become a base for attacking Israel. But there are at least presently two unsolvable problems. Some Palestinians left Israel when Israel was formed. They have mostly lived in settlements in Lebanon and have grown in numbers to several millions. Palestine insists that they have the right to return to Israel, which of course would place the Jews in a minority. Also, both parties claim Jerusalem as its capital, and neither will compromise.
Time may solve the one problem, as those who originally lived in Israel age and die. It is not clear that many of the descendants want to live in Israel.

[Mariatenebre]

You convinced me.

All countries which don't support gay rights should be occupied by the ones that do.

Really cheap move of you to play the gay card. Just because I believe the Palestinian's deserve to be independent it does not have to mean I'm a fan of their culture. Plus oppressing and isolating nations will always increase extremism. It's pretty ironic to keep them imprisoned on their own land and then complain about them being extremists.

And please don't generalize.

Honestly I would support pro gay countries occupying anti gay countries. If a nation can't treat it's own people right then they shouldn't be in charge.

Next I believe in a independant Palestine when they stop hating Jews. Palestinians are in the situation they are in because they will not accept rule by Jews whom they believe to be the source of all evil. If they did not want the destruction of Israel then they could live in peace with Israel with their own nation. Next oppressing and isolation extremist nations is the only way to deal with them. if you play nice with extremists then all that happens is you embolden them.

[JohnnyAnger]

Really so you support prison states because you have some weird view they are anti-gay. Hamas is not the only party within Palestine nor does it represent that many of the peoples political views. What is does offer is organization against an oppressive imperialist state stealing their land.

[JayHawk]

Hamas is a terrorist organization that foments hate and fear. They played a vital role in decimating the Palestinian people and then brought them food and bandaids to make themselves seem benevolent. What a crock of shit....

[bankside]

I'm not sure how Hamas can have a place at the table; isn't their mandate defective anyway? That doesn't make Israel's continuing occupation any more valid, but it kind of shows the shit storm on both sides.

[Kulindahr]

Really so you support prison states because you have some weird view they are anti-gay. Hamas is not the only party within Palestine nor does it represent that many of the peoples political views. What is does offer is organization against an oppressive imperialist state stealing their land.

"Weird view"?

Hamas constitution . . . claims Homosexuality is an abomination

Hamas justifies beheadings, beatings, torture and killings of Homosexuals with Islamic law or unjustly claim the Homosexuals are collaborators of the enemy.

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/hamas-official-stand-on-homosexuality-below-should-liberals-defend-hamas/question-3332705/


This from a Hamas leader:

You in the West do not live like human beings. You do not even live like animals. You accept homosexuality. And now you criticize us?

http://www.frumforum.com/hamas-leade...iticize-islam/

[xbuzzerx]

Hamas's views on that don't differ from Islam in general nor from Christianity in general tbh.

[Telstra]

Hamas's views on that don't differ from Islam in general nor from Christianity in general tbh.

But Christianity don't hate jews anymore.
Maybe if there is a peace treaty, islam would changed into gentler religion similar to Christianity who knows?

[xbuzzerx]

But Christianity don't hate jews anymore.
Maybe if there is a peace treaty, islam would changed into gentler religion similar to Christianity who knows?

Don't be so quick to think that. The Jewish synagogues in Los Angeles get vandalized regularly, sometimes several times a year. And plenty of the graffiti isn't Arabic or Muslim in content...

Maybe the reason Christians and Jews don't have open hostility anymore is because after WWII the west just exported them to Palestine? It's a lot easier to get along when you never have to deal with someone next door. That plus shame over WWII but frankly it's naive to think Christians love Jews.

[Telstra]

Don't be so quick to think that. The Jewish synagogues in Los Angeles get vandalized regularly, sometimes several times a year. And plenty of the graffiti isn't Arabic or Muslim in content...

Maybe the reason Christians and Jews don't have open hostility anymore is because after WWII the west just exported them to Palestine? It's a lot easier to get along when you never have to deal with someone next door. That plus shame over WWII but frankly it's naive to think Christians love Jews.

ok, but my prediction is atheists wins out at the end as knowledge grows ? ...

[xbuzzerx]

ok, but my prediction is atheists wins out at the end as knowledge grows ? ...

I agree that secularism is more responsible for the lack of street violence against Jews in western countries than Christianity is. Not that many people care that much about religion to go out and attack someone of a different one in the west-- general statement of course. We do have our pockets of crazy.

My only point was-- opposing Hamas on the grounds that it's anti-gay is silly as if there are so many different non-Muslim political choices in the Muslim world as alternatives and are pro-gay. Hating them for that is like hating the guy who beat up your mom because he was in an A&F t-shirt and you hate A&F.

Anti-gay is a separate issue that is fairly universal. Few of the world's major religions or religiously political groupings approve of homosexuality.

[Kulindahr]

Don't be so quick to think that. The Jewish synagogues in Los Angeles get vandalized regularly, sometimes several times a year. And plenty of the graffiti isn't Arabic or Muslim in content...

Maybe the reason Christians and Jews don't have open hostility anymore is because after WWII the west just exported them to Palestine? It's a lot easier to get along when you never have to deal with someone next door. That plus shame over WWII but frankly it's naive to think Christians love Jews.

I suspect "The Race", an 'Aryan' neo-Nazi group that holds that Jews should be persecuted wherever they're found.

BTW, there are a lot of Christians who honor Jews as the cousins of Jesus.

[xbuzzerx]

I suspect "The Race", an 'Aryan' neo-Nazi group that holds that Jews should be persecuted wherever they're found.

BTW, there are a lot of Christians who honor Jews as the cousins of Jesus.

Probably. I try not to give hate groups too much of my attention, I figured it was probably something like that.

[Kulindahr]

I agree that secularism is more responsible for the lack of street violence against Jews in western countries than Christianity is. Not that many people care that much about religion to go out and attack someone of a different one in the west-- general statement of course. We do have our pockets of crazy.

My only point was-- opposing Hamas on the grounds that it's anti-gay is silly as if there are so many different non-Muslim political choices in the Muslim world as alternatives and are pro-gay. Hating them for that is like hating the guy who beat up your mom because he was in an A&F t-shirt and you hate A&F.

Anti-gay is a separate issue that is fairly universal. Few of the world's major religions or religiously political groupings approve of homosexuality.

The most "persecution" of anyone I've seen from Christians was when I was at OSU, and a large group of Campus Crusade for Christ members would cross over and walk on the other side of the street from a mosque.

[xbuzzerx]

The most "persecution" of anyone I've seen from Christians was when I was at OSU, and a large group of Campus Crusade for Christ members would cross over and walk on the other side of the street from a mosque.

Ever heard of Cracker Barrel? Chik-Fil-A? Boy Scouts?

[Kulindahr]

Probably. I try not to give hate groups too much of my attention, I figured it was probably something like that.

I learned a lot I didn't want to know when a kid I knew ended up in prison and sent all this crap people were giving, to get my opinion. What drives me crazy is they think they're Christian.... even when they issue "edicts" that some other skinhead has to be killed because he was seen being friendly to "niggers" or "Judases" (i.e. Jews).

[Kulindahr]

Ever heard of Cracker Barrel? Chik-Fil-A? Boy Scouts?

Never heard of Cracker Barrel, haven't seen anyone turned away from a Chik-Fil-A, and the Scouts aren't Christian.

[xbuzzerx]

I learned a lot I didn't want to know when a kid I knew ended up in prison and sent all this crap people were giving, to get my opinion. What drives me crazy is they think they're Christian.... even when they issue "edicts" that some other skinhead has to be killed because he was seen being friendly to "niggers" or "Judases" (i.e. Jews).

And I don't blame the Christian faith as a general set of teachings and beliefs for those groups though yes, they do identify as Christian and say what they're doing is for white Christians or whatever else. But by the same token I recognize that most scholarly imams who don't come from a severe backwoods or weren't handpicked by crazies because they were crazy say that Islam is not a religion that smiles upon killing people whether they drink alcohol or pray to Jesus. Despite the fact that the net is rife with people quoting obscure lines or things out of context from the Qu'ran to say Islam wholeheartedly endorses killing and violence. One of the biggest sites that used to do that finally got called out by a military translator who pointed out that the quotes they had up about cutting off heads and killing the filthy were actually (intentionally) misappropriated from the section on halal and were basically instructions on the Muslim version of the kosher preparation of meat.

So I have a mountain of salt when it comes to people trying to say this religion > that religion because (insert instance of extremists.)

[xbuzzerx]

Never heard of Cracker Barrel, haven't seen anyone turned away from a Chik-Fil-A, and the Scouts aren't Christian.

Cracker Barrel fires gay peple on the spot. Chik-Fil-A donates money to 2nd class citizenship efforts (or at least, did, until the hard PR spank.) The Scouts as an organization may not be a "Christian organization" but bucktons of its membership is, and boots gay people.

I don't really see any religion except the ones that sorta stay out of the temporal stuff for the most part like the broader mainstream Buddhist sects as having much claim to a "well WE don't persecute anyone, we're better than those other evil religions that do." Because it's all coming from the same place, fundamentalist interpretations of really friggin old holy books.

[JayHawk]

Chick-fil-a is tasty for fast food and the owner is free in the country I live in to donate to whom he wishes... just as I am free to not eat his chicken...

[xbuzzerx]

Chick-fil-a is tasty for fast food and the owner is free in the country I live in to donate to whom he wishes... just as I am free to not eat his chicken...

Has nothing to do with why it was brought up.

[JayHawk]

Nope nothing at all but it being brought up has nothing at all to do with the conversation... they hire and do not discriminate.... unlike the terrorist in Hamas or even the psychos in the christian church or the Aryan nation....

Just here to help.... the BSA does and I have never seen Cracker Barrell do so but I will take your word for lack of giving a shit about looking it up.... however if I was a homo fired from CB I would fucking destroy them....

[maxpowr9]

Cracker Barrel fires gay peple on the spot. Chik-Fil-A donates money to 2nd class citizenship efforts (or at least, did, until the hard PR spank.) The Scouts as an organization may not be a "Christian organization" but bucktons of its membership is, and boots gay people.

I don't really see any religion except the ones that sorta stay out of the temporal stuff for the most part like the broader mainstream Buddhist sects as having much claim to a "well WE don't persecute anyone, we're better than those other evil religions that do." Because it's all coming from the same place, fundamentalist interpretations of really friggin old holy books.

Actually Mormons, not Christianity have a stranglehold on the Boy Scouts. It's pretty much a requirement for Mormon boys to join boy scouts.

Buddhists are not the saints that people make them out to be. Buddhists and Hindus have been fighting each other long before the Christians showed up in India. Not to mention the Buddhist violence against Muslims in Burma too.

[JayHawk]

Maxpwr you kinda nail my opinion... religion in general is the base reason so many die and so many more will die. It is sad really when the basic tenant of all religions is peace....

[xbuzzerx]

Actually Mormons, not Christianity have a stranglehold on the Boy Scouts. It's pretty much a requirement for Mormon boys to join boy scouts.

Buddhists are not the saints that people make them out to be. Buddhists and Hindus have been fighting each other long before the Christians showed up in India. Not to mention the Buddhist violence against Muslims in Burma too.

I'm not someone who is going out there saying any religion is a paragon of peace and nonviolence in its actual historical presence. Buddhism was extremely bloody, especially the further back you go in history. However Buddhism today in most of Asia is if anything even more secular than the "Christianity" in most of the west, or at least in Europe (the U.S. is slowly getting there) and no one could give a crap what sect you are or if you ever practice, no one knows or cares. (Unless you're SGI in Japan which they regard as like the scary fundie cult version, it is the version of Buddhism which has more followers outside of Asia than in Asia, like Tina Turner is a "big name" convert to it, a very evangelical type of Buddhism.)

My basic point was... anyone who is Christian or defends Christianity but goes out on a limb to talk about the persecutions or social injustices empowered by other religions is really just asking for that position to backfire. And I do not and never really did understand the urge people have to validate their own religion by trying to make some objective presentation about how it's better than another. Christianity has plenty of sins to answer for in history.

[maxpowr9]

Sorry to go off-topic but you do realize that Buddhist violence against Muslims in Myanmar is like 5 months old
Myanmar to examine Muslim-Buddhist violence. That is why it was unprecedented that Obama visited the country recently as they try to bring peace between the two sides and transition from a dictatorship to a democracy.

[xbuzzerx]

Sorry to go off-topic but you do realize that Buddhist violence against Muslims in Myanmar is like 5 months old
Myanmar to examine Muslim-Buddhist violence. That is why it was unprecedented that Obama visited the country recently as they try to bring peace between the two sides and transition from a dictatorship to a democracy.

Yes, I also realize it doesn't reflect the majority of Buddhism any more than 9/11 or Westboro Baptists reflect all of Islam or Christianity.

[TX-Beau]

Are we hating on Buddhists this week? No one sent me the memo.

The Palestinian problem isn't about religion, or at least no JUST about religion - religion is used as a proximate cause but there are a whole lot of things both sides hate each other for that aren't about that.

I suppose if we wanted to be fair, the actual genesis of the present situation was the original partition of Palestine, and the wholesale importation of European Jews whose only claim to Palestine was like a thousand years old. That certainly had nothing to do with Islam, and I can see how the Palestinians might get a little miffed with all these self entitled Europeans walking in like they owned the place because other Europeans turned out to be Jew hating monsters.

[TX-Beau]

Does that make someone "right," and someone "wrong?"

Who the hell knows, in that situation you can try to be right, or you can try to find a solution. You CAN'T have both, and that's the reason there will be no solutions - everybody, including here, is trying to be right.

Fuck that, I'm tired of this being a factor in my life.

[JayHawk]

Are we hating on Buddhists this week? No one sent me the memo.

The Palestinian problem isn't about religion, or at least no JUST about religion - religion is used as a proximate cause but there are a whole lot of things both sides hate each other for that aren't about that.

I suppose if we wanted to be fair, the actual genesis of the present situation was the original partition of Palestine, and the wholesale importation of European Jews whose only claim to Palestine was like a thousand years old. That certainly had nothing to do with Islam, and I can see how the Palestinians might get a little miffed with all these self entitled Europeans walking in like they owned the place because other Europeans turned out to be Jew hating monsters.

Wars result in changed boundaries... but to the point... the land called Israel was actually Palestine before WWII? or no?

Not trying to be a shit either... i have seen a ton of maps prior to WWII that detail Palestine as a different place with different boundaries...

[TX-Beau]

"The formal objective of the League of Nations Mandate system was to administer parts of the defunct Ottoman Empire, which had been in control of the Middle East since the 16th century, "until such time as they are able to stand alone."[5] The mandate document formalised the division of the British protectorates - Palestine, to include a national home for the Jewish people, under direct British rule, and Transjordan, an Emirate governed semi-autonomously from Britain under the rule of the Hashemite family.[1]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...al_instrument)

It's all Britain's fault.

BTW I believe that is modern Palestine, Israel, and Jordan, which were all booty from the destruction of the Ottoman Empire.

[maxpowr9]

^Yes, the Israel-Palestine conflict is essentially a prisoner's dilemma. Each side will choose "defect" instead of cooperate because there is no payout for cooperating.

[JayHawk]

Well not entirely Britain's fault... but a good deal...

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...18_to_1948.htm

Still it is odd that the majority of the two religions in the area believe that Jews should be in and around Jerusalem and yet they butcher one another for the very act of carrying out their religious text.... very ODD.

[xbuzzerx]

I can't imagine a whole lot of people who would like it if after 200 years on their land in the U.S., England came over and gave it back to the Native American tribe that used to live there. Can you? lol.

It's not really a religious conflict and the teachings of the various holy books aren't really pertinent. Take any two religious countries or cultures and put them into geopolitical conflict and they will make it religious on the flags and banners and propaganda, but that's almost never what wars are actually about.

[TX-Beau]

Well not entirely Britain's fault... but a good deal...

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...18_to_1948.htm

Still it is odd that the majority of the two religions in the area believe that Jews should be in and around Jerusalem and yet they butcher one another for the very act of carrying out their religious text.... very ODD.

Religion has become one of the banner causes, just like here in the US "Creationism," is a banner cause that isn't actually about religion - it's about solidarity and separating "us," from "them." Which is why it's pointless to argue science with a Creationist, because that is NOT the point.

History has amply shown that Jews and Arabs can live together, so what's different now?

[TX-Beau]

I can't imagine a whole lot of people who would like it if after 200 years on their land in the U.S., England came over and gave it back to the Native American tribe that used to live there. Can you? lol.

It's not really a religious conflict and the teachings of the various holy books aren't really pertinent. Take any two religious countries or cultures and put them into geopolitical conflict and they will make it religious on the flags and banners and propaganda, but that's almost never what wars are actually about.

You're right, at it's core, it's the same purse fight that's been going on in the Middle East way back into biblical times, complete if I'm not mistaken with terrorism and acts of genocide - if you believe the bible, and one that definitely annoyed the Romans - bands of religious and ethnic cousins, squabbling over the same miserable patch of desert - enough already.

What's going to happen - the Israelis will eventually kill or displace all the Palestinians, there will be a war, someone will nuke the crazy ayatollahs in Iran.

Not an endorsement, just what I think is going to eventually happen.

[White Eagle]

Although I'm more on the Palestinian side I admit that in some ways both sides gain from one being so much weaker.

So in the long run both nations will need to have peaceful agreements when giving Palestine the tools to become a strong independent country. This is something Israel has to do in the long run so it can improve it's relations with the region and avoid future wars.

The US as a biased country towards Israel will never be able to negotiate peace between the two. It's pretty pointless to take that path again and again.

The UN thing is mostly symbolic and won't change things on the ground.

Ya know? I will have to agree with you. Palestine should be able to be a country. Israel is being, what do I want to say here?, irresponsible. They, well no, there will never be a solution to this. This has been going on for how many centuries? I do believe Palestine needs to be a country, but Israel needs to get with it and just let them! There! That made sense, didn't it?
Sorry, a lot of Canadian Mist and water tonite.

[White Eagle]

Yes like many Liberals you support the Palestinians. The racist gay murderors who want the eradication of Jews and who do not have a legitamate claim to this nation or land. It is Israel which has always sought peace with the Pallys. However the Pallys don't want peace they want blood. Keep defending the people who would cut your face off.

This surprises me. I haven't had a problem with you before this. I thought you came here and made your positions quite well.
Forget my opening to this post, bourbon don't ya know. But I have to point out to you this is quite vicious. Please go back to when you came here.

[White Eagle]

You convinced me.

All countries which don't support gay rights should be occupied by the ones that do.

Really cheap move of you to play the gay card. Just because I believe the Palestinian's deserve to be independent it does not have to mean I'm a fan of their culture. Plus oppressing and isolating nations will always increase extremism. It's pretty ironic to keep them imprisoned on their own land and then complain about them being extremists.

And please don't generalize.

I'm hearing you bro.

[White Eagle]

Well they are fairly imprisoned... but when they seek to smuggle things in they don't smuggle medicine or foods... nope they smuggle missiles.

They are not imprisoned on their own land. They don't have a land. If they didn't actually desire the demise of Israel they could have been living in relative success and prosperity with the Jews, Bedouin and Arabs that live in Israel.

Oh, God! I guess I need to go to bed.
It's been a bad nite.

[White Eagle]

I'm not sure how Hamas can have a place at the table; isn't their mandate defective anyway? That doesn't make Israel's continuing occupation any more valid, but it kind of shows the shit storm on both sides.

Educate me. Is there another entity other than Hamas in the Palestinian arena?