Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

[Kulindahr]

If you want war you have war. If you want peace you ahve peace.

It only takes the wishes of one to have war. It takes two to have peace.

 

[BostonPirate]

It only takes the wishes of one to have war. It takes two to have peace.

yes it does. let me repeat that...

IT TAKES TWO TO HAVE PEACE.

How about we hold them both responsible for it?

 

[Kulindahr]

.
Very good propaganda video somewhat connected ... sort of blaming everyone but themselves.

Shallow prattlings of a shallow man.

 

[Kulindahr]

"Israel wants to rule the world" This is just false.

This guy is an embarrassment to the species.

 

[Kulindahr]

.
What you guys think of this ?

Darned good.

But he's missing one thing: if his vision of peace comes to pass, the terrorist 'militias' will come in and slaughter everyone not ready to shoot back. To them, anyone friendly with a Jew needs to be promptly sent to hell.

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yes it does. let me repeat that...

IT TAKES TWO TO HAVE PEACE.

How about we hold them both responsible for it?

One already wants peace.

 

[BostonPirate]

One already wants peace.

It's hard to tell what with all those explosions and air assaults. If that's what it means to want peace, I hope mexico never wants it with America.

 

[BostonPirate]

I see absolutely zero evidence of this.

Surely you can do better if you are right.

Let me put in the rest of what I said first.....

I think I will leave it up to god to decide whether they deserve it or not, myself. But what seems clear to me, is Israel, Egypt and Iran seem intent on turning the mideast into a sea of radioactive glass.

Well if that's what they plan, it happens to fuck up the rest of the planet for all of us.

I am tired of hearing excuses for and from both sides of this argument. If you want war you have war. If you want peace you ahve peace. If these nations want to kill each other then I say that enough American blood has been spent on the promise that THIS time, it would make all parties over there stop fighting.

It's not going to happen, and I am all for Letting the whole lot of them just go at it. If it affects the rest of us? If these wars continue to cause global dissension, then what? We all just sit around with our dicks in our hands waiting for the toxic skies to fall?

Where is the responsibility to the rest of the planet, that got together as the UN and gave Israel the land in the first place? Does anyone feel responsible for acting as a global power for peace over there? If not, then I say cut the purse strings to the whole lot.. the palestinians, the Egyptians and the Israelis.

Americans are war weary. Mideasterners seem to prefer it as a way of life.

proof ?

There is none needed at this point. It's clear that you aren't going to really be open to seeing the wrongs of both sides of this problem. If you think that the extermination of the pallestinians has not been underway for the past few decades, then you are married to an ideology four thousand years old, and you aren't really going to change.

just consider that the people on the other side? They are human beings just like the Israelis are. If they had a bit of human dignity given to them by the Israelis, it would go a long way.

Equally, I find it hard to trust Palestine, until they agree that Israel has a right to exist.

Just keep the nukes and the poison gas in the holy land and out of america. The only way this will obviously end is the way the south american wars ended four thousand years ago.... Destruction of all parties involved.

As far as I am concerned, the world would be a safer place if there were NO pallestinians and NO Israelis in it. Is that really what you guys are going after?

 

[Telstra]

Darned good.

But he's missing one thing: if his vision of peace comes to pass, the terrorist 'militias' will come in and slaughter everyone not ready to shoot back. To them, anyone friendly with a Jew needs to be promptly sent to hell.

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One already wants peace.

Peace has to start somewhere.
And the extremists will be fade away like the IRA.

 

[Jack Springer]

Frankly, I'm sick of the Israeli vs. the rest of the middle east thing but Israel does have a a right to defend themselves.

As a country Israel has gone much further, done more good, produced more than any other country in that region.

The other countries have had the same opportunities -- however they choose not to use those opportunities.

Will this be settled in our lifetimes? I hope it will .. but I doubt it. The Bible shows the conflict for thousands of years.

 

[rareboy]

The worst thing that ever happened was that Israel and Palestine also became a proxy battleground in the Cold War. Without the new imperial powers, USSR and the USA fighting one another in this region....perhaps there might have been a chance for peace earlier than later.

It was really only when Sadat shifted Egypt away from the Soviet sphere of influence that the dynamic really shifted to the conflict being between the middle eastern theocracies, monarchies, despots and Israel.

But honest to Pete. Israel, with a consistent policy of settlements on the West Bank has made it really, really hard to stand behind them. Frankly, they are no different than China's occupation of Tibet or the European occupation of Africa. What they are doing is no different than what Hitler did with the occupation of Poland and the Sudetenland. Conquering territory and then forcing out the inhabitants. In this case, with the tacit approval and blessing of the west.

I often pose the question to my North American friends. In what way is this acceptable?

Why does everyone think that there would not be violent consequences?

Given the pattern of encroachment and settlement, how is it that the nation of Israel can be held up as a beacon of democracy and a model state?

The seeds have been so widely and deeply sown for conflict, that I don't think even a thousand years will bring about a resolution.

 

[Jack Springer]

Recently there was another thread on CEP denouncing any gay person who did not vote for Obama -- the main reason was Obama's support of gay rights and the lack of support on the republican side.

I now ask how could any gay guy not support a country who is very liberal concerning gay rights and support a group of people who do not believe in your rights to exist to the point that they would kill you?

That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

 

[Telstra]

I support Israel but it seems Israel did more wrongs than the Palestinians.
It is very hard to negotiate if they are too arrogant and too aggressive.


Is it true that there are 50% of Arabs live in Israel ?

 

[TX-Beau]

..... and around and around we go.....

 

[JayHawk]

Israel will invade because the rockets wont stop... it isn't about Palestinians either... it is about the Iran backed terrorist group Hamas and their desire to fight a proxy war with the west vis-a-vis Israel.

So Israel will invade and effectively clear out the caches of rockets.
The Palestinians will show pictures of collateral damage as the cowardly terrorist hide behind women and children.
Then hostilities will end as the world condemns what they are all saying Israel is within it's rights to do now so Israel will pull back but place very difficult to contravene checkpoints to stop missiles from being shipped into the country.
Civil rights groups will wait six months so the worlds view isn't on Israelis dying from rocket strikes and they will then claim the Israeli checkpoints are humanitarian disasters.
The world pressure will force the Israelis back.
The Palestinians will start to rebuild.
The less effective checkpoints will then allow the smuggling of rockets and terrorist asshats will launch missiles into Israel again....

Rinse ....

Repeat....

been the story of my entire life and most of yours as well... no solution until Iran is prevented from sponsoring terror through inclusion or destruction.

 

[JustMe5]

I now ask how could any gay guy not support a country who is very liberal concerning gay rights and support a group of people who do not believe in your rights to exist to the point that they would kill you?

Some secular Jews in Israel support gay causes. But religious Jews? Forget about it. Israel is no different than many other countries where religion plays a strong role, in that homosexuality is considered an abomination.

 

[rareboy]

Recently there was another thread on CEP denouncing any gay person who did not vote for Obama -- the main reason was Obama's support of gay rights and the lack of support on the republican side.

I now ask how could any gay guy not support a country who is very liberal concerning gay rights and support a group of people who do not believe in your rights to exist to the point that they would kill you?

That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Such an interesting question.

One notes that in the first instance, the support for homo rights does not result in an existential threat for anyone else....voting for Obama because he supports gay rights was likely one of a number of reasons that he was the overwhelming favourite of homos.

The unwavering support of Isaeli occupation of all the territory that was once Palestine because they tolerate homosexuality does potentially come with the cost of complicity in creation of an existential threat of individuals and communities.

That creates more of a moral dilemma. Just because someone threatens my rights as a homo, does not necessarily mean that I want to see them and their families suffer or that I want them wiped from the face of the earth. You are not alone though, in wishing that very thing.

What to do. What to do.

Fortunately or unfortunately, the crisis will continue long after I am dead and like all other conquests, diasporas and winner take all occupations....the future will tell the tale as to how successful this 65 year old experiment will be.

 

[BostonPirate]

Because you have none to offer.

If you level an accusation, you better have evidence to back it up, sorry. You got nothing.

I'm not an idiot buddy. Take a look at that map. There are only three options available... Either the occupants of that land were forcibly evacuated a la pogroms, or they were killed a la Holocaust, or they are rounded up and crunched into that little bit of land into camps, with meager existences, like the holocaust.

What's else? Self Deportation? IS that a policcy you agree with?

Don;t tell me what proof is needed, pal. There's the map. Tell me where the people went. To disneyland?

I am not saying that the Palestinians have clean hands, what I am saying is I respect the Israelis enough to expect them to TRY to have cleaner hands.

They haven't in decades and as soon as we get past the childish antics of Nah ah and he hit me first, the sooner a solution will be found.

YOU tell me what that maps means for the people that USED to live there? What are the options, Mr Logic? Are you so wed to the concept of being an apologist that you can't see the forest through the trees.

According to the ministry, 850 people have been wounded in Gaza since the hostilities began on Wednesday. They included 260 children and 140 women.

Israel puts its death toll since Wednesday at three civilians - two men and a woman killed by a rocket fired from Gaza. Police said more than 60 people have been wounded.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...toll-israel-gaza-conflict-2012_n_2159085.html

Explain to me why these numbers make sense. explain to me how this is a measured response that WONT start a war in which thousands of Israelis are killed?

You have to have your head examined if you think supporting this war is good for Israel.

 

[JayHawk]

SO ok... someone show me the sovereign country of Palestine that delineates their country and it's accepted boundaries. That map posted above is a fucking fairly tale.

If that is going to be the argument.

 

[Telstra]

Israel will invade because the rockets wont stop... it isn't about Palestinians either... it is about the Iran backed terrorist group Hamas and their desire to fight a proxy war with the west vis-a-vis Israel.

So Israel will invade and effectively clear out the caches of rockets.
The Palestinians will show pictures of collateral damage as the cowardly terrorist hide behind women and children.
Then hostilities will end as the world condemns what they are all saying Israel is within it's rights to do now so Israel will pull back but place very difficult to contravene checkpoints to stop missiles from being shipped into the country.
Civil rights groups will wait six months so the worlds view isn't on Israelis dying from rocket strikes and they will then claim the Israeli checkpoints are humanitarian disasters.
The world pressure will force the Israelis back.
The Palestinians will start to rebuild.
The less effective checkpoints will then allow the smuggling of rockets and terrorist asshats will launch missiles into Israel again....

Rinse ....

Repeat....

been the story of my entire life and most of yours as well... no solution until Iran is prevented from sponsoring terror through inclusion or destruction.

Do you agree with Miko Peled ?

 

[JayHawk]

Is that the guy who says eradicate the Palestinian people from Israel? Honestly?

I don't want that to be the solution BUT that people representing Palestinians have rejected every single overture made to them for the chance to be their own self defined people. I cannot support eradication but forcing them into refugee status into the countries that are fomenting the violence anyways... yes that could work... then the rockets would have to be launched over national borders and other avenues to punish nations who chose to attack Israel would then exist like sanctions and economic isolation..... pretty much every side is using Palestinians to beat out their anger with the other party...