His Late Majesty King Richard III

[Benvolio]

Margaret of Wessex was mother to Matilda, and also sister to Edgar.



Right. Elizabeth of York I think descended from two of Edward III's sons, but Henry VII also had Beaufort blood, hence that's why I said most. The simple fact that Saxon blood is compounded many times in the 15th century is important, but there may be people who have even more.

It would be more interesting to map out the House of Wessex than the Plantagenets, if you don't believe in William's right of conquest.



Ah, the Tudors also had Mortimer blood, so that's three sons of Edward III that Elizabeth is descended from.

Elizabeth of York was also descended from John of Gaunt, the third son of Edward III, through her grandmother Cecily Neville, daughter of Joan Beauford. But there is also a question of whether Elizabeth's father Edward IV was the son of Richard of York, allegedly in Europe st the time.

[pat grimshaw]

No one has dissuaded me from thinking that the King of England should be buried in the capital of England.

They say he should be buried out in the provinces as some kind of provincial tourist attraction.

[palbert]

Shortlist for King Richard III artwork is revealed

Five short-listed designs for a King Richard III artwork linking the Bosworth battlefield and Leicester have gone on show.
...
People can give their views by completing a form at Bosworth, Leicester Cathedral or County Hall or by visiting:

www.leics.gov.uk/ cathedralgardens

(At the site ^^ there are two perspectives of each submission.)

http://legacy.thisisleicestershire.c...#ixzz2iTLip0NI

My modernist view directs me to Wolfgang Buttress' Return. But, something compels me to Michael Sandle's Requiem for Richard III.

As there a total of ten perspectives, I let you look for yourself.

The shortlisted designs will be at Bosworth until Sunday (October 27) before being displayed at Leicester Cathedral (October 28 - November 3) and the members’ lounge at County Hall headquarters in Glenfield (November 4 - 8) with the public encouraged to give their views.

http://www.leics.gov.uk/cathedralgardens

[unloadonme]

I'm afraid to say Palbert that I don't care for any of them, but modern "art" generally leaves me cold.

I've had a reply from HMG about the online petition:

"The e-petition 'Richard III to be re-interred at York Minster' signed by you recently reached 31,342 signatures and a response has been made to it.

As this e-petition has received more than 10 000 signatures, the relevant Government department have provided the following response: The Secretary of State grants licences to exhume buried human remains under Section 25 of the Burial Act 1857. Around 200 licences are issued each year for archaeological purposes. On 3 September 2012 the Ministry of Justice granted a licence to Leicester University to exhume human remains found during the excavation of a Leicester car park. The excavation was primarily to investigate a Franciscan friary but also to locate the remains of King Richard III who, evidence suggested, was buried there in 1485. The University carried out a series of tests on the remains and on 4 February 2013 announced that one set was those of King Richard III “beyond reasonable doubt”. The MoJ licence prescribes that the remains should, no later than 31 August 2014, be deposited at Jewry Wall Museum or be reinterred at St Martin’s Cathedral or in a burial ground in which interments may legally take place; and that in the meantime they should be kept safely, privately and decently by the University of Leicester. The University intends to reinter Richard III’s remains at St Martin’s Cathedral in Leicester. The Secretary of State for Justice and the University are currently defending a judicial review of the decision to grant the exhumation licence to the University of Leicester. This judicial review touches on the question of where Richard III should be reinterred. It would be inappropriate to comment further while the judicial review is ongoing.”

[Benvolio]

No one has dissuaded me from thinking that the King of England should be buried in the capital of England.

They say he should be buried out in the provinces as some kind of provincial tourist attraction.

The last King buried in London was George II in1760. Elizabeth II will not be. She, to a virtual certainty, will be buried in St George's Chapel, Windsor.

[unloadonme]

The last King buried in London was George II in1760. Elizabeth II will not be. She, to a virtual certainty, will be buried in St George's Chapel, Windsor.

She will. The vault of King George VI has six spaces; himself and Queen Elizabeth, Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip, Prince Charles and Camilla. Additionally, it also contains the ashes of Princess Margaret.

[palbert]

Sandle's Requiem for Richard III

[pat grimshaw]

^ what is that white material? Plastic?

Those scruffy rough figures below look like the garish ugly figures from the 1960s Coventry Cathedral.

I'm afraid to say Palbert that I don't care for any of them...

I agree.

They all look like modern junk to me— and utterly disrespectful and unharmonious to the stone surroundings.

Where will the visitor centre be located?

[Benvolio]

She will. The vault of King George VI has six spaces; himself and Queen Elizabeth, Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip, Prince Charles and Camilla. Additionally, it also contains the ashes of Princess Margaret.

Thanks. I visited St George's in August and wondered where they would find room. It is a gorgeous church, but a bit junky as they have chairs and stuff stored around the edges.

[Alnitak]

Those scruffy rough figures below look like the garish ugly figures from the 1960s Coventry Cathedral.

Oh that thing...

[unloadonme]

Oh that thing...

For readers who were wondering why Coventry Cathedral ...



It's no better in the flesh. We have the Luftwaffe to thank for the loss of its medieval predecessor.

[Alnitak]

On the other hand, there were probably far more German churches that were destroyed.

Poor buildings wanted no part in the destruction.

Anyway, the old tower is still quite nice.

[rareboy]

For readers who were wondering why Coventry Cathedral ...



It's no better in the flesh. We have the Luftwaffe to thank for the loss of its medieval predecessor.

This is what we refer to as the Queen Elizabeth II style. It is a shame that it is gone...but as has been pointed out...so are some of the most important cathedrals in Germany....oddly enough though...if it hadn't been for medieval romantic nationalism clashing up against the modern industrial age...WWI and therefore WWII would not have occurred at all.

BTW. All the Richard monumants are shite. Shurly design students could do better. Save us from all of these maudlin, derivative and unoriginal pieces of crappe.

[pat grimshaw]

This is what we refer to as the Queen Elizabeth II style...

You can't blame the monarch for the stupid rudeness of the adolescent brutalist buildings built during her reign.

[Alnitak]

This is what we refer to as the Queen Elizabeth II style. It is a shame that it is gone...but as has been pointed out...so are some of the most important cathedrals in Germany....oddly enough though...if it hadn't been for medieval romantic nationalism clashing up against the modern industrial age...WWI and therefore WWII would not have occurred at all.

BTW. All the Richard monumants are shite. Shurly design students could do better. Save us from all of these maudlin, derivative and unoriginal pieces of crappe.

Many were rebuilt of course, such as the church in Dresden. Some such as the Cologne Cathedral came within an inch of collapse but were saved that the last minute.

It just so happens this architect decided against rebuilding the old cathedral. Germany has a very similar church, the Kaiser Memorial Church, which is half historic half modern.

[palbert]

For unloadonme

[Alnitak]

Ricardians? LOL

[Benvolio]

I know I have no dog in this fight, but hope Leicester prevails.

Richard III arrived at Bosworth a proud man; he fought as a King and proud man; let him be remembered where he was betrayed by, among others, the city of York, which sent only 80 men to his royal array. Ashdown-Hill, The Last Days of Richard III and the Fate of His DNA, The History Press (2013)(p. 67).

From circumstances it has been discerned that the King was betrayed by Henry Northumberland, 4th Earl of Percy, who was slow to advance. Buttressing the fact of betrayal, posted to the tent of Sir John Howard, Duke of Norfolk, "his staunchest supporter," was the couplet:

Jockey of Norfolk, be not too bold
For Dickson thy master is bought and sold.

Seward, The Wars of the Roses, Carroll & Graf (2007)(p. 403)

As late as the 1530's it was said in the Commons "Although he did evil, yet in his time were many good Acts made." (Ashdown-Hill, Ch. 12, fn. 8.)

Were I meaningfully a descendant I would have known it before someone else worked out the family tree and disinterred the King.

At the risk of being picky, the quote should read " Dickon thy master is bought and sold." Not Dickson. Perhaps the most meaningful betrayal was by Lord Stanley, the Constable of England, who gave his son as hostage to insure loyalty but who nevertheless betrayed Richard. It is puzzling that Richard trusted him, since Stanley was the Father in Law of Henry Tudor, having married his mother Margaret Beaufort.
Since York did not support him when needed, perhaps York should not be rewarded with his tomb.

[palbert]

The Yorkshire Museum is displaying a 600 year old manuscript to buttress its relation to Richard III.

Now, a nearly 600-year-old manuscript on display at the Yorkshire Museum reveals York's attitudes toward the medieval king while he was still alive. This is the first time the manuscript has been on display for the public, according to The Northern Echo.

Before the King's visit in august 1483, the City was instructed:

"I advyse you, as honourably as your wisdomes can imagyne, to ressayve hym and the quene at their commyng, dispose you to do as well pageants with soch good speches as can goodly, thys short warnyng considered, be devised," read instructions from the King's secretary contained in the York House Books manuscript. The orders came in August 1483, as Richard III and his lords travelled to York.

After the Battle of Bosworth:

"'King Richard late mercifully reigning upon us was thrugh grete treason of the duc of Northefolk and many othre that turned ayenst hyme, with many othre lordes and nobilles of this north parties, was pitiously slane and murdred to the grete hevynesse of this citie," the York House bookkeeper recorded.

http://www.livescience.com/40540-yor...chard-iii.html

This exhibit is part of the Richard III: Rumour and Reality Festival, through June 2014.

http://richardiii-ipup.org.uk/ (contains resources, historical timeline and more))

[unloadonme]

Thanks Palbert. I'll have to get myself along to see that.

[palbert]

^^ You please must report back for those not fortunate enough to see it!

[unloadonme]

The reburial plans in Leicester are on hold:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-24906332

[pat grimshaw]

^
it looks like an Ikea sofa

[unloadonme]

Let's hope it doesn't fall to bits quite so quickly!

[Alnitak]

Swedish engineering

[palbert]

Take the Richard III quiz:

http://www.gotoquiz.com/how_well_do_...ow_richard_iii :

Do you know your Richard III from your Richard I? Since the recent discovery of Richard's remains, we've found out new and exciting facts about him.

Take the Quiz here to determine how well you know the life and times of Richard III, history's most underrated and misunderstood King of England. Can you call yourself a Ricardian?

[unloadonme]

Well spotted Palbert. I just scored 100% with no cheating, although some of the questions are a little slanted!

[palbert]

100% here also. But you're correct there is a certain York slant to some of the questions.

[palbert]

Cute commentary on the "Brides of Gloucester," who exhibit slavish devotion to Richard III:

The Ten Warning Signs You Might Be a Bride of Gloucester

http://www.susanhigginbotham.com/blo...of-gloucester/

[unloadonme]

Happily not one of those ten warning signs applies to me. What about you Palbert? You have a dawg don't you?

[Benvolio]

Happily not one of those ten warning signs applies to me. What about you Palbert? You have a dawg don't you?

I also scored 100% but it is not clear that he wanted to be buried in York. He seems to have cleared a space in St George's Chapel, and he buried his wife in Westminster Abbey.

[pat grimshaw]

My post #351 was a bit rude and dismissive. Ikea furniture is OK as it's designed for inexpensive, ephemeral living-room furniture which will be replaced in ten or 20 years.

A sarcophagus for a king should be timeless.

The great Sir Edwin Lutyens (1869 – 1944) strived to design a timeless-looking cenotaph which was free of fads and trendy doodads that'd make the thing look dated in ten or 20 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Lutyens





^ Lutyens designed for an outdoor setting but it looks timeless which I reckon the king's tomb should be.

[unloadonme]

Well whoever "designed" the proposed tomb for Leicester is no Lutyens.

[palbert]

With York and Leicester in court over where Richard III should be entombed it didn't seem the situation could become more complicated. Never fear:

Leicester City Council and university at odds over who owns Richard III's bones

Read more: http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Ci...#ixzz2ly9oBvI2

The City owns the car park where he was found; the University of Leicester held the exhumation license and the right to determine reburial location.

[unloadonme]

Ha ha. Let the Leicester contingent squabble amongst themselves!

I'd have thought that Richard's next of kin "owned" his bones if anyone did. I wouldn't like to think that after my death my remains became the property of either church or state.

[rareboy]

Ha ha. Let the Leicester contingent squabble amongst themselves!

I'd have thought that Richard's next of kin "owned" his bones if anyone did. I wouldn't like to think that after my death my remains became the property of either church or state.

Just a reminder that as a 1st cousin 14 times removed (the closest relationship that any collateral (probably a few tens of thousands of us) descendant has), I would be very pleased to help determine where he is buried and what chunk of stone commemorates him.

Just let me know.

[Rick Ratzinger]

´

(Movies about him) . - Already done!


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049674/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114279/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2

Right, and already in 1939 - with the unforgettable Basil Rathbone in the leading role; co-starring a great cast of other famous actors: Boris Karloff, Vincent Price, Ronald Sinclair....



...................................... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_o...281939_film%29

...................................... http://thegreatbaz.wordpress.com/201...f-london-1939/











http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_GIchwvJ-aN...939+poster.jpg




.............................................


´

[Rick Ratzinger]

´


Basil Rathbone with the crown:


http://www.doctormacro.com/Images/Ra...ndon%29_01.jpg



And some pictures more from the recommended Tower of London:


http://stendec8.blogspot.de/2012/01/...o-carroll.html



The movie is a mixture of historical drama and horror flick; with some black humor, and satiric elements....



.................................................. ......


´

[Benvolio]

Elizabeth II would probably be considered the legal next of kin and legal heir. Many statutes have determined the passing of the crown and crown property down to her, and establish her as the legal head of the royal family, as well as head of the COE and monarch. I have no doubt that she has the final authority if she chooses to exercise it.
By my calculation she is the 15x great niece of Richard III. A Bill of Attainder prohibited the descendants of George Duke of Clarence from inheriting his property, so it passed to Elizabeth Plantagenet, queen of Henry VII. Does that include the bones? I would think so.

[ravenstar]

No idea I'm afraid.

This is a good picture of Richard III's reconstructed face being inspected by his 17th great-nephew, Michael Ibsen.

It's amazing how many similarities you can see between the reconstruction of King Richard III and his 17th Great Nephew. You can tell just by looking at them they're related.

[Benvolio]

It's amazing how many similarities you can see between the reconstruction of King Richard III and his 17th Great Nephew. You can tell just by looking at them they're related.

I do not see it. Richards prominent jaw is his most distinctive feature, without which there can be no resemblance.

[ravenstar]

Look at his eyes and nose, they're almost identical.

[Benvolio]

Look at his eyes and nose, they're almost identical.

If so, it is a coincidence. There is very little chance of actual characteristics being inherited through that many generations.

[unloadonme]

If so, it is a coincidence. There is very little chance of actual characteristics being inherited through that many generations.

True, although they share exactly the same mitochondrial DNA.

[ravenstar]

If so, it is a coincidence. There is very little chance of actual characteristics being inherited through that many generations.

Well it's a pretty good coincidence if you ask me. Give the guy with the glasses a wig like the recreation is wearing and loose the glasses and have him pose with a jutting jaw. They could pass for Uncle and Nephew lol.

[palbert]

A new date, 13 March 2014, has been set for the High Court proceedings.

A new date has been set for the judicial review into the Richard III exhumation licence after the first hearing failed to get under way last year.

The University of Leicester and the Ministry of Justice will visit the High Court, in London, on March 13, to argue the legality of the licence, which gives the university control of Richard III's remains.

Read more: http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Ri...#ixzz2pRtvKK2w

[unloadonme]

Thanks for that Palbert.

The Bishop of Leicester has been spouting off about reburial in his cathedral. I think it's time for the Archbishop of York to weigh in for his Minster.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-25349673

[unloadonme]

News on the search for the remains of King Alfred the Great:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-25784726

[palbert]

The commemorative artwork for Leicester Cathedral has been selected.

For choices see http://www.leics.gov.uk/cathedralgardens

The twelve panel artwork Toward Stillness has been chosen.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-25919409

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/po...ail/story.html :

(The 12 steel plates) are said to reflect Richard III's final moments at Bosworth, the moving of his body to Leicester, his burial, and discovery by archaeologists five centuries later.

[unloadonme]

Thanks for that Palbert. I'm afraid I think that the "artists" responsible for those proposals should be taken out and shot.