Suicide attempt,that almost succeeded.But I only wanted pain to stop

[Chrizze]

Funny,that no one else is not writing here,except we three....perhaps,because we are deviated from starting point quite far,..but still,these things has to do with it,...perhaps we dig too deep for others?

[bankside]

Funny,that no one else is not writing here,except we three....perhaps,because we are deviated from starting point quite far,..but still,these things has to do with it,...perhaps we dig too deep for others?

Not at all too deep, but I am mindful that this one thread may not be the best place to debate some of the contributions from other posters, and/or yourself, which seem mistaken, or ill-advised, or dismissive, or partly right. The intent of the thread is I believe to gather suggestions, not so much debates. Certainly that is the purpose of this section within the forum.

Though I believe there is much goodwill and good advice above, I have also bitten my tongue on a number of occasions.

No fear though; I will gladly take up any of these topics in other parts of the forum designed for more free-wheeling debate.

[ludolfo]

I agree with this, Ludolfo.

At this moment, I believe my own experiences occur in the brain, but I could be wrong! In fact, I hope that I am wrong, because if I am, a whole new world will open up for me.

There's a third possibility: some of the experiences could occur in the brain, while others could indeed happen outside the confines of the physical body.

I told myself that I would accept the truth of the matter, no matter how much it hurt.

I like your third possibility because it respects both perspectives. This really is Mystery, and we are completely interelated with mystery and are a mystery to our selves also. I also point out the dynamic that is known and unknown. We will never ever have this: 'OK everything is known now'. That is absurd, because it is a dynamic, and wherever there is known no matter if we are 1000 years in the future and know much more there will always be the unknown, and it is intermingling all the time with known, so for example I would ask you 'tell me what you were doing at 4:27 on the 3rd of August?'....If it wasn't a big event like a wedding etc, you may not know. You could be at work, but you may not know exactly what you were doing at that time, what you were thinking and doing. it is unknown, and same for some time yesterday. So there is that sense of the changing unknown also.

[ludolfo]

Funny,that no one else is not writing here,except we three....perhaps,because we are deviated from starting point quite far,..but still,these things has to do with it,...perhaps we dig too deep for others?

I don't think we have. And I think that if you can't be deep in a forum about spirituality where can you be?

[Chrizze]

I don't mean to offend,but yuo,johan,and ludolfo,you could reduce those debates you have between you two,don't you think? Talk to me . ...was that on "The Godfather"?

[Chrizze]

Scientific language is the first,what I have been learned...everyday-life kind.of things were the last.If I read something,and don't understand,that means,that I would not understand it in my language either.I have seen every episode from "star trek",all of the five series,about 4-20 times.and that started fifteen years ago,and last episode they made,was about six years ago.now I watch re-runs.

For example,I was able to read fluently the "scienticif american" magazine ten years ago.

[ludolfo]

Scientific language is the first,what I have been learned...everyday-life kind.of things were the last.If I read something,and don't understand,that means,that I would not understand it in my language either.I have seen every episode from "star trek",all of the five series,about 4-20 times.and that started fifteen years ago,and last episode they made,was about six years ago.now I watch re-runs.

For example,I was able to read fluently the "scienticif american" magazine ten years ago.

I used to like the old Star trek when I was younger too. Beam me up Scotty LOL. I bet you would love Dr Who.

[Chrizze]

They had made completely renovated versions from old ones..pretty good.

[Chrizze]

^Do you find the sleep regimen doable?

At glance,why not,but I hve to study it further.

[Kulindahr]

Chrizze,they will not incarcerate a mentally ill patient unless

*they are a danger to themselves (suicidal) or
*they are a danger to others (the criminally insane.)

Unfortunately, there is a bad side to this, because people who really are in desperate need of attention (for example, hebephrenic schizophrenics,or those with a thought disorder) don't get help--they're often thrown out onto the streets to fend for themselves.

Your poor mother wouldn't have gotten the help she needed.

"Danger to self" isn't limited to suicidal, at least not everywhere. If a person's behavior is such that it is likely that he or she will inflict serious damage on him/herself without intention, that can also qualify. On top of that there are 72-hour holds that can be used to confine someone even just to find out WTF is going on when behavior is truly bizarre.

Of course there's also the clincher that any three psychiatrists can get together and agree someone needs to be confined, and you get confined.

[Kulindahr]

So,this is what will happen?

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks…will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered…. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs. – Thomas Jefferson in the debate over the Re-charter of the Bank Bill (1809).

Waking up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered?

Jefferson never said such a thing. The proof lies in the fact that "deflation" was never applied to anything financial until well after the year 1900; more, that there's never been any document called or containing anything called "Debate over the Re-Charter of the Bank Bill". It's listed under "spurious quotations" by Monticello.org and designated "False" on snopes.com.

[Kulindahr]

There's one important thing I forgot to tell you all.

Chrizze, if you have it in your mind that you suffer from bipolar illness (as opposed to simple depression), I met a woman who swears that a ketogenic diet cured her. No joke.

She'd originally started her ketogenic diet in order to lose weight, but a few weeks in, her husband noticed a big change in her moods. She was skeptical at first, then she grudgingly had to admit that he was right--those horrible highs and lows she'd had completely disappeared. Now, she lives on that ketogenic diet all the time.

If you want to talk to her, drop me a line. She posts frequently on another forum, so it might take me a couple of days to re-establish contact with her, but once you meet her, you will instantly perceive her as "credible".

On a related note, I do know that ketogenic diets were used in the 1920s to treat epilepsy, and rather recently, scientific investigation proved them "effective". If ketogenic diets can treat epilepsy, just why wouldn't they be effective for bipolar illness? Both illnesses originate in the brain.

So here you have an instance of science meeting naturopathy and concurring.

Now I'm fascinated!

[Kulindahr]

^ lol Chrizze. Maybe you're right.

Our debate originated with you, really. We were looking at different approaches of addressing your problem with depression. In the course of our debate, a most remarkable concurrence has taken place--we're meeting in the middle, a rare occurrance these days, it seems.

At any rate, I have some exciting news for you, Chrizze. Remember the University of Freiburg experiments? Out of the original experiments, they fine-tuned the protocol to process over just one week. Yes, over just one week, you could feel significant relief from your depression by advancing your sleep phase, and I have concrete evidence!

The abstract is a pdf file, so I'll have to link to it indirectly. This link will take you to a Google Results page. You will want to choose the fourth (4th) choice from the top.

Supposedly, it works for 61% of the patients. I feel excited for you; I hope you try it.

Please let us know if you don't understand the scientific language--we'll translate it for you into easier-to-understand English.

http://snipurl.com/2560uyy

Hey -- that just gave me a google search result list. Is that what it's supposed to do?


At any rate, I followed a couple of links and did some reading. It seems that the sleep advancement is supposed to be started when in a depressive episode. My question would be how anyone would expect me to remember to do something like that when depressed?

[Chrizze]

Jefferson never said such a thing. The proof lies in the fact that "deflation" was never applied to anything financial until well after the year 1900; more, that there's never been any document called or containing anything called "Debate over the Re-Charter of the Bank Bill". It's listed under "spurious quotations" by Monticello.org and designated "False" on snopes.com.

I had my doubts about it too.but last sentence,written by me,seems to be valid,compared tobwhat is happening today?

[Chrizze]

Kulindahr: - what Thomas Jefferson,and James Madison had really said,are they avalable somewhere in internet? Perhaps eve downloadable?

I was in psychiatric today,he did not made any changes to my medication....long discussion short: there is no magic bullet,or pills...you just have to live this life.this what my friends say,what you,people here,say,and what my friends in workplace says.
That it is UP TO YOU.you choose to live,or die,it's so simple,when we clear all the crap away.And no-one else can do these things for you.

[Chrizze]

So,BlondeCanadian,at first page,already said,what everybody has said,basically.

We are not going to be able to change your mind. You are going to decide to live or you are going to decide to die.

End of the day,it's that simple.


My doctor said also,that,"you should address that drug abuse problem first"

[ludolfo]

So,BlondeCanadian,at first page,already said,what everybody has said,basically.



End of the day,it's that simple.


My doctor said also,that,"you should address that drug abuse problem first"

Have you got a drug problem? Sorry if you have said. I thought you'd said it was in the past.

[Chrizze]

To Ludolfo: No,it is only occasional now,..yuo never really quit,..and I don'n even want to.

To Johann. Thanks for a suggestion to replace one poison with another.you don't seem to know too much about opiate addiction.I have studied about it extensively,about the whole time I have been using..And we don't..our doctor don't do off-labeling so much as your doctors do.
(I checked topiramate from our 'FDA's database).

[Chrizze]

Johann,why you comment my post kindof "off - label",you only comment,when you have some scientific study to provide.I want my whole post addressed,to best of your ability.

[ludolfo]

I very much respect the African sacred plant Iboga. I have never had it myself, but I feel that people who want to try it should have the freedom to. I saw this video night before last:

[Chrizze]

^I don't think I understand the question, Chrizze.

But if you're asking why I used the term "off-label", I must let you know that doctors won't usually prescribe a medication for off-label use unless you specifically ask if you can try it. This is why you may not have even known about topiramate before I brought it up.

I know a little bit more than most people about off-label use of pharmaceuticals because I read a lot of medical literature. For example, my OH was just prescribed clonidine for the purpose of nicotine withdrawal, yet few Americans even know about it because its use as a medication for nicotine withdrawal is "off-label".

Do you know about ibogaine? It has an off-label use for opiate withdrawal.

I don't mean to offend you with any of this, Chrizze, I am only trying to help you..

Sorry that outburst,bad morning,perhaps. I know perfectly,what prescribing off-label means.I have two shelfmetres medical literature.What perhaps differs between our countries,that GP's as they would say in british,your general medical doctor,that you probably go,unless your condition is already known..they cannot off-label.So,to get what you suggest,I should see addiction field-specialized psysciatric doctor.There is only one in this town.I had met him couple of occasions,..nice fellow,no problem with that.
I know Ibogaine therapy.I mentioned that already.by the way,are you trying to say,there is on-label use? It's schedule I? Anyways,no seller(assuming there is one) in EU would not ship it to finland,and I don't have a "sitter",for that stuff.

[Chrizze]

So,BlondeCanadian,at first page,already said,what everybody has said,basically.

We are not going to be able to change your mind. You are going to decide to live or you are going to decide to die.
End of the day,it's that simple.


My doctor said also,that,"you should address that drug abuse problem first"

What I meant,johann,was,that you did not had any comment in your post,that adddresses.anything,but last sentence.

[ludolfo]

Sorry that outburst,bad morning,perhaps. I know perfectly,what prescribing off-label means.I have two shelfmetres medical literature.What perhaps differs between our countries,that GP's as they would say in british,your general medical doctor,that you probably go,unless your condition is already known..they cannot off-label.So,to get what you suggest,I should see addiction field-specialized psysciatric doctor.There is only one in this town.I had met him couple of occasions,..nice fellow,no problem with that.
I know Ibogaine therapy.I mentioned that already.by the way,are you trying to say,there is on-label use? It's schedule I? Anyways,no seller(assuming there is one) in EU would not ship it to finland,and I don't have a "sitter",for that stuff.

I was no way suggesting you must ever do Iboga by yourself. In that film you hear the guy say it is very expensive but was worth it to him. But I know I know, this culture in yours and my country and Europe have made it SO very nearly impossible for people who would love nature's help to be able to receive it. I hate and loathe the powers that be that are still carrying on the evil legacy of the Inquisition---they are the utmost arrogant shits that have ever disgraced Earth.

[Chrizze]

Chrizze said:

,I should see addiction field-specialized psysciatric doctor.

And you have to be referred to any spcialist doctor,by to that,now usually twenty,or if I am lucky,early thirty something "GP",who knows shit.by the way,is it allowed in U.S or UK for a doctor,that works in goverment funded,or in U.S in a non - privately owned hospital (if there is any),to also have private practise? Here,that is a standard.

Johann,.as you know,that any member of U.S congress is not allowed to hold any official connections to anywhere else,do I remember right? Here it is quite normal,even expected,that member of house of representaves maintains tight connections to whatever connections she/he had for example.and those people that in U.S are "secretaries", here they also came from the crowd of representatives.so if we would switch our system overnight to U.S a same person could be secretary of defense,mayor of his hometown,and sit in numerous bords in multinational companies.and Prime minister is always the leader of winning party.that's not in the law,but is as sure,as that,that new pope will be selected from among cardinals.If I have understood right,there is only two formal requirements to be pope,..that you are catholic,and male.

[Chrizze]

I know,that about the powers that be,I hope,that one day they wouldn't be.

[ludolfo]

That is very uplifting song. I can feel the times they are a changing I saw this great talk by Paul Stamets the other day--he is one of the top mushroom experts--and he showed how the mushrooms connect undergraound by mycelium, and he compares this with the internet, and how we now --well some of us anyhow--can connect like we do HOPEFULLY connecting ways to undermine the toxic oppression that has stopped our natural intelligence and relationship with nature. I am NOT saying that pre-internet that wasn't also the case, and that Earth 'needs' technology, but now the internet is here, I'm hoping it will be used for the good

[ludolfo]

Shame?
I love the feeling that I am learning all the time. I hate people who are know-it-alls, and will not admit that they are learning things. Though I also may come across as a knowitall to some. You can't please everyone.

But I have learnt some things last few days that made me go WOW. First off a guy who knows his stuff about psychedelics said that LSD actually leaves the biological system after about one hour and a half, and the rest of the trip which can bu 10-12 hours is what LSD has activated

Today I watched a video where a psychologist is talking about the benefits of MDMA therapy:

“…It looks like MDMA allows one to enter into a state of consciousness where suddenly, maybe for some people for the very first time in their lives, they find themselves without shame. They find themselves with an open heart, where maybe for decades their heart has been closed and they haven’t even noticed it. So it allows for connection. The major effect of PTSD is the inability to make meaningful connections.
Judith Lewis Herman, a Harvard psychiatrist actually argues that all the syndromes listed and catalogued in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual that the American Psychiatric Association uses, all of it really boils down to PTSD. So if we can make headway with an efficient way of relieving people from the after-effects of trauma or traumas, then, in a way, we alleviate the entire field of mental distress. Not just what is not strictly believed to be PTSD.”

So it was when I heard him say about Judith Herman saying that I said 'WOW', because it makes so much sense. That all so-called 'mental illness' is a result of all kinds of trauma, and traumas. "According to Greek etymology, 'schizophrenia'actually means 'broken soul' or 'broken heart'." I had come to this insight about my own problems without any expert telling me this. I also have had experience of rescue dogs--I have one--who have had trauma, and you see this ingrained fear in them, even though you are going overboard to show love. There are breakthroughs but it is VERY subtle.

[ludolfo]

I don't like psychiatry. I don't like psychology. I am not here to help Chrisse. I would hate him to think I am here to 'help' him, like I would hate someone to say to me 'I am here to help you'. I find that SO patronizing. No, I am here as a human being who has been through the mill myself, and so can emphasize with people who also have hard times is all. So it is a friend reaching out, holding a hand kind of thing, and hopefully listening

I dont like psychology because in its mainstream form it is based on the idea that we are biological robots JUST like its big bro psychiatry, except the latter are allowed to certify us and push drugs and ECT on us. Though I think psychologists are looking for that power also

The reason I like Andrew Feldmar, who is a psychologist, is because he goes against the conformist ideas and oppressive power of psychology, and psychiatry as I am discovering:

[bankside]

foremost person i can think of on substance use and/or abuse and/or mental health questions is Canada's own Dr. Gabor Maté

http://drgabormate.com/in-the-newsmedia/audio-visual/

[Chrizze]

Well,Johann,surely I am not writing to train my English.

[ludolfo]

All we have hear is text. We don't even have ways--that many except italics--to communicate inflections in voice, and certainly not expression of face, body language, and tone of voice. So that is the limits of this medium, here, and we have to do best we can. we CAN try and reflect closeness with words, and also share information and so on.

I of course do not only advice talking 'therapy'--though I dont consider me doing that. I have advised way above person centred counseling, because I also said that what is on offer by this State which includes most of the modern world, especially if you dont have much money, is either the docs/shrinks with their prescribed 'medication' OR the psychologists who also can treat you like a machine. For example, years ago I went to see a clinical psychologists, and his response to something I was going through was to tell me to use an imprinting technique. When I challenged him about it on the phone he came across as this fundamentalist preacher I was telling Jesus didn't exist. Absolutely no empathy at all.
So out of all thats on offer only PCC is alright because at least you are not pressured to take their pills, and are rather treated with respect and listened to. This DOES help, because it allows you to be able to express your thoughts and feelings without someone trying to judge or 'help'/'save' you.

By now people in this thread should know that I of course would want there to be more options that that. I am passionate about the need for MDMA and psychedelic healing, for example. But this culture is still in the dark ages about all that I am afraid, so we in the community again have to do it best way we can. Thing is, if and when psychedelic therapy is allowed, I should imagine it will be SO expensive that only the rich will be able to have it. THAT would be typical in THIS world.

As Andrew Feldmar says in the video, the medical authority is like the inquisition. Actually the androcentric medical authority came to their power via the Inquisition and the torture and mass murder of poor women who shared a very ancient knowledge of healing plants and herbs!

[Chrizze]

I have an appointment to my GP 19.10 I am going to ask for him to see,if there is place in local hospitals psychward,..it is not locked-in ward.main psychhospital is 70 miles away,..I am not ready,and to my understandind,it would be overkill anyway.after all,it was fourteen yrs.ago,since anything had been done to my medications on 24/7 surveillance.and there has been long gaps without any.

[ludolfo]

Physicalism: A Pernicious Cosmology

[Chrizze]

Maybe a little sooner,I just have to arrange couple of things.

[Chrizze]

I'll do...depending on which hospital,etc..and it's been 15years since the last time,..I think,probably everything has changed.

[Kulindahr]

I dont like psychology because in its mainstream form it is based on the idea that we are biological robots JUST like its big bro psychiatry, except the latter are allowed to certify us and push drugs and ECT on us. Though I think psychologists are looking for that power also

I've never met a psychologist with that sort of view, and I've worked with five, of schools from Jungian to Rogerian.

[Kulindahr]

Physicalism: A Pernicious Cosmology

But that's exactly the atheist viewpoint argued in every forum.

[Kulindahr]

^Chrizze, I don't know what Finnish doctors might suggest as a first-line approach. If they deem your condition to be life-threatening, however, they might indeed push the possibility of ECT.

I think Ludolfo would agree with me that if the doctors do push that possibility, I think you should make yourself fully aware of the risks. A small portion (1%?) suffer permanent memory loss, while a significant portion (40% or more) suffer temporary memory loss, usually the two-week period prior to the treatments.

A patient fully aware of all the risks makes the wisest choices.

I'll be thinking of you, man.

There's why ECT is most effective when the issue being dealt with is very recent. For things in the far past, I regard it as useless.

[Chrizze]

They never push it as a firstline,past 15yrs ago,they never even suggested it.and things has got better on that,..I wouldn't be surprised,if it's not been even used anymore.In fact,I haven't ever known anyone who got that...and I know,and have been known,plenty of people with these issues.

[Chrizze]

And it cannot be used against patients will,and if patient do not fully understand what is it about.even if patient is in hospital "against his/her will".

[ludolfo]

whatever you do Chrizze do not have ECT!!! It is barbaric, and utterly ignorant, and reflects the utter ignorance of this modern culture based on scientific materialism:

[Chrizze]

Please,stop fighting over my life.It is not in your hands.I appreciate both of you,and final treatment would consist pieces of both of your advice,but I don't think ECT. If your life is in danger in hospital,they pump you up of valium,or sorts..or if you are dangerously psychotic,neuroleptics,and strap you to you bed.Even my mother,who attempted suicide,when I was 3yrs old,had never ever heard about ECT,and she frequented mental institutions many times later.And let me remind,there is enormous difference,If I walk in,and ask for admittance,because I feel,that I might hurt myself,than when someone is dragged in,because he is danger to others.A form,that will be filled,is different,only thing same,is,that treatment happens in same building,..not necessarily in same ward even.And I do possess more medical information,than any person,who is not GP,should.You know,who adds knowledge,adds pain.

[ludolfo]

In 2000, I was doing a course for person centred counselling (I never went on to the next stage), and when there met a woman student who was middle aged. We all would be usually in circles (the students) and tell our stories etc. She said she'd had ECT and would go on how marvelous it was, but what she was apparently unaware of but which was apparent to me, and I think others, is that her words slurred and she appeared brain damaged, and it was really sad to see this!

[Chrizze]

Well,surely I don't need to be reminded,that meds are poisons,..and in long term,I may end up like my mother,but that,I think,is better to at least my relatives,than being a strange fruit in southern tree,in southern breeze.I really like to live in that world,which would have been designed for men to live.But this is not it.I hope,that one day it will be.Until then,I have to take next best thing.And since our country is highly medicalizated,and there is only 5 million people,..you could say,that counseling,and psychology practically don't exist here.Only in private sector,and even there,only few of the many "schools".so,..it's either rope,or dope,when it comes down to it.

[ludolfo]

Only 5 million?? We have 70 million on this little wet island! And how strange that they seem compassionate enough not to allow people to be homless but this does not stretch to offering alternatives for people who are psychologically distressed? what a fuked up world this is! Truly

[Chrizze]

My firm belief is,that exactly because few numbers of us,we can afforf to take care,and and cannot afford not to...but 70 million? Or 300 or what,in U.S? Million here,and there,who cares... And counseling takes time,and money,.. There is about 3000 new disability pensions granted each year,by psychological reason,..usually,to 20 - 30 years old people...our society just burns people from both sides of the candle,and the middle.This system,alonside with E.U is going to fail in couple of years...we have highest suicide rates in western europe.

I am honestly missing cold war times..things worked better then,..at least in our country.

[ludolfo]

I have never thought about Finland as being part of the Cold War times. I need to refresh my history knowledge. So you mean it was communist? Here we have the 'National Health Service' (NHS) but the present gangsters in power want to bash bash the 'poor'. They are stopping welfare left right and centre, and they want to end the NHS, and the cost of heating homes etc is going up tomorrow by 8 percent and it is raining, cold, so it is a complete nightmare for many people. Like you know this same shit is going on over Europe. It makes you wish for help--magical help. yesterday I was watched a video where it claimed that Buddhist monks had said they had 'seen' that in 2012 there is going to be intervention from alien beings...LOL. Things are so bad you want to believe this. I say that, but I have also seen SUCH unbelievable poverty in places like Africa that it makes you hesitant to moan. However it is all degrees isn't it. If your not happy you cant suddenly be happy because there is someone 'more' unhappy than you. In fact that would be quite sick

[ludolfo]

............but hey. lets not get too negative Ever tried stuff like this out?

[Chrizze]

What! We were at key point in cold war times,in many ways,trying to be neutral to the west,and soviets "door" to the west,etc,.. Don't say that C-word to me! I would barely tolerate that from american,because everything,that is not his,is communist..we were never been communist,or soviet satellite state,..reason,why things were better,were something like Japan used to be,and still is..large,in our case state-owned companies,but still capitalists,and lifetime jobs.I was last generation raised to expect that,but then world changed...you are expected to have three to four careers on your lifetime,which could have nothing in common...it's not sane.Yes,they would privatise our healthcare as well,same things going all over europe..

[Chrizze]

36yrs,and of course,I don't remember it from adult standpoint of view,..but I went to school in 1983.but I do remember things,that were different,even thought I was a child,..and have studied a subject quite a bit,because,it's part of our history.

Why anyone never check profiles? My age is there.by the way,johann,you seem to be particularly educated.