Is there a correlation between your political stance and how out you are?

[Rolyo85]

When I first started posting in JUB, I spent a few months exclusively in the Coming Out and Relationships forum, as that was what was interesting for me to talk about. Then I got more into gay issues and politics in general, and started frequenting CE&P as well. And little by little, as I grew to know the usual suspects here, I started noticing certain trends. I am not going to give specific examples because COR&B is a non-flame zone, but it seems to me that it's usually the conservatives on here that urge posters to stay in the closet, to be ultra careful about who knows they're gay etc.

I am not trying to turn this into a fight, but I think it would make for an interesting survey if you'd pick the option in the poll that fits you best, and say what you think about it here. Sorry if there's another option I haven't thought of, wasn't intentional.

Also, has anybody ever met a liberal ex-gay? O.o

[Rolyo85]

But it's only fun if you post as well as vote -_-

[gaypiper]

I said "Liberal," even though vote Dem. I would rather vote Socialist if I could

[JB3]

I think the question is flawed, because so much more goes into how out you are than just your political stance.

[maxpowr9]

I think the question is flawed, because so much more goes into how out you are than just your political stance.

This. I won't vote in such a poll because of it.

[TickTockMan]

I am a registered Libertarian, but I consider myself a realistic Libertarian. Because of that I am have been looking for another party to join, but have not found one that seems to fit me anymore than the one I have.


Politically I am very liberal when it comes to social issues and fairly to very conservative when it come to fiscal issues, but not in a Republican way. I think Republican/conservative thoughts on fiscal issues are usually 100% wrong. I lean much more closer to Democrat thinking on fiscal issues, but taken to a much more conservative point. I think too much money is wasted on the wrong things and not nearly enough is spent on the right things.


As for being out, I have said it before, I was never in. So yes I am “out”, but only because I never bothered to hide it. Lying takes too much effort.

[Rolyo85]

I think the question is flawed, because so much more goes into how out you are than just your political stance.

The topic is here to discuss if there is a correlation between the two, not if your political stance is THE ONLY THING EVAH that decides whether you're out. Obviously it's not. However, I do notice certain trends and I am curious to see if they are true or not.

Come on, give me some credit


P.S. So far no Republicans/Conservatives have voted. This also tells me stuff ^_^

[JayHawk]

Well perhaps what you view as conservative would consider themselves moderate or independent??

[Rolyo85]

Perhaps. I meant people who identify themselves as such though.

[chance1]

When I first started posting in JUB, I spent a few months exclusively in the Coming Out and Relationships forum, as that was what was interesting for me to talk about. Then I got more into gay issues and politics in general, and started frequenting CE&P as well. And little by little, as I grew to know the usual suspects here, I started noticing certain trends. I am not going to give specific examples because COR&B is a non-flame zone, but it seems to me that it's usually the conservatives on here that urge posters to stay in the closet, to be ultra careful about who knows they're gay etc.

I am not trying to turn this into a fight, but I think it would make for an interesting survey if you'd pick the option in the poll that fits you best, and say what you think about it here. Sorry if there's another option I haven't thought of, wasn't intentional.

Also, has anybody ever met a liberal ex-gay? O.o

wow

who is urging posters to stay in the closet ? conservatives are?

this thread is obviously an attempt to flame with the hope of a fight

pretty obvious to me

[Kulindahr]

I'm not on your chart.

[Rolyo85]

Sorry. Next time I'll be sure to include at least 40 options so as to cover all intricate distinctions.

Also, you are a conservative

[chrisrobin]

^^^No.
...........................

[Kulindahr]

Also, you are a conservative

In the last month on JUB I've been called a liberal, an ultra-liberal, a socialist, JUB's truest independent, and an anarchist. This is the first time I've been called a conservative.

[JayHawk]

No way Kuli. You have been called a conservative before.

The truest way to tell what someone believes politically is to see what they try to call you to hurt your feelings. The conservatives were calling you a liberal and the liberal is calling you a conservative.

I think you are a logic-atarian. Too bad the world doesn't work off logic but emotion. It exist in logic but is ruled by screaming panting emotions.

[Rolyo85]

In the last month on JUB I've been called a liberal, an ultra-liberal, a socialist, JUB's truest independent, and an anarchist. This is the first time I've been called a conservative.

You were called liberal by the Republican crazies on here. I like you, and I still think you're more conservative than liberal. That said, I am not going to seriously try to tell you what you are

Nobody is discussing the topic though (with the possible exception of Chance, but nobody quoted him, so I can't tell ^_^). Am I the only one who has had those observations?

[JayHawk]

Not really. I have noticed that most gay boys in bars were for the democrats because someone told them that was right and they couldn't even remotely name or talk about both sides of an issue. I hardly count that. And yes I do consider them human even if they dont have self determination or brainwaves.

[JayQueer]

I have noticed that most gay boys in bars were for the democrats because someone told them that was right and they couldn't even remotely name or talk about both sides of an issue. I hardly count that.

^^This.

So so true.....

[Rolyo85]

Jay, don't quote things you don't understand please

Other Jay - there is a much more serious issue here, which is that many (though hopefully not all) conservatives associate conservatism with the GOP, and from there the connection to religion is all too quick, leading to all sorts of shame and self-loathing...

I don't think Republican gays are any more self-aware and informed than those club-boys you're talking about. If anything, I'd say they're more brainwashed, given how much harder it is to believe in something that actively hates you.

[bankside]

You were called liberal by the Republican crazies on here. I like you, and I still think you're more conservative than liberal. That said, I am not going to seriously try to tell you what you are

Nobody is discussing the topic though (with the possible exception of Chance, but nobody quoted him, so I can't tell ^_^). Am I the only one who has had those observations?

Rolyo, a primarily american readership is by definition conservative.

[Kulindahr]

No way Kuli. You have been called a conservative before.

I think you are a logic-atarian. Too bad the world doesn't work off logic but emotion. It exist in logic but is ruled by screaming panting emotions.

Not in the last month I haven't.

[Rolyo85]

Well you just were.

Bankside, I didn't get what you meant with that post.

[Kulindahr]

I don't think Republican gays are any more self-aware and informed than those club-boys you're talking about. If anything, I'd say they're more brainwashed, given how much harder it is to believe in something that actively hates you.

Definitely.

But growing up in a strict conservative household means that you let other people define who you are. There's no real way to challenge those definitions, since by definition other people have to give you the definitions, so you can't make your own definitions about yourself (when that's reinforced by the admonition that these are GOD'S definitions, it's an incredible stranglehold).

At least the brainwashing from the left tells people they're supposed to think for themselves, so if they happen to do it, it's a good thing... by the definition. But for the conservative, you're not supposed to think for yourself, or at least not outside the acceptable parameters, so the moment you have an independent thought the ingrained reaction is to chastise yourself and retreat deeper into that definition of yourself that others gave you.

In a way, GOProud and the Log Cabin Republicans deserve great admiration, because they've at least managed to think far enough as to forge a hole in that steel straightjacket, a hole allowing room to stand up and say, "I'm gay, and it's okay" -- despite the screaming of all those definitions they carry within and of the other conservatives without.

[Kulindahr]

Rolyo, a primarily american readership is by definition conservative.

Except that the American online community tends to be much farther left than the American public.

[bankside]

Well you just were.

Bankside, I didn't get what you meant with that post.

if you put american political opinion on a left/right scale, the whole thing skews right. as most non-americans have given up on current events and politics, the spectrum represented here is also right-leaning.

[Kulindahr]

Well you just were.

Bankside, I didn't get what you meant with that post.

Compared to Europe and the Commonwealth, the American left is centrist, so the American average is conservative on the world scale.

[bankside]

Except that the American online community tends to be much farther left than the American public.

Yes; that is a point I have not considered.

And it is complicated too by a couple of things; You (US posters) seem to span the gamut from far right wing to centre right with a few outliers to the left who would acknowledge themselves as such.

Online, I don't know how it skews but your contention strikes me as reasonable. Probably further so on a self-selecting forum like JUB; gay people skew not so much left, but away from the far right, and posting here requires a tolerance for naughty un-right-wing things like (gasp) porn (blush).

So if this counts as unrepresentative American left-wingery, then I'd probably fall over in amazement to discuss politics with a representative group of Americans picked from the non-web-surfing population.

But my own ability to calibrate people I meet on a spectrum is compromised by living in the most Americanised (for better and worse) and Sovereignty-Compromised-Texas-Republican-Oilpatch-Oligarchically infested of Canadian provinces. (not hyperbole; it is a result of certain patterns of historical migration and 20th century investment)

In my own mind I consider myself a typical centrist Canadian in a province full of right-wing looneys. But when I chat with Canadians in other provinces, a lot of my views come across as centre-right to them. I came from a province where everyone was a swing voter who expected politicians to work for every vote. But most of my contacts these days outside Alberta are with British Columbians, who have their own strange polarised political dynamic which actually includes an unredeemed unvarnished unhinged left wing capable of periodically obtaining power. When I come across as centre-right to one of those kinds of British Columbians, I'm probably doing something right.

In the UK I'd probably be a swing voter who might be inclined to vote Lib Dem but would change that at the drop of a hat depending on whether Labour or the Conservatives were annoying me more.

In France I think I'd be completely unintelligible to them. I could never bring myself to vote for the right-ish Gaullist successor parties after that shitbag de Gaulle himself sullied my country with his footsteps. We're still cleaning up the smears he left behind. Nor the xenophobic right. I would want to vote Socialist but I don't think I could bring myself to vote for a party that is not centrist on the economy but truly economically ridiculous. Labour, social entitlements, truly are out of hand in France with no accountability. And getting Socialists to commit to 30% cuts in the french national budget would be very difficult. Can I move to Belgium? At least they don't have government there ….

In Australia, probably a solid Labor voter. There is much less bullshittery coming from the Liberal party down there but still they seem to make room for the petty-mindedness that annoys me. I'm still surprised at how far behind Aus is on equal marriage. It's a spectacular country with everything going for it. However I do think size matters…they're a bit smaller and once in a while it shows; maybe missing the critical mass to force through a few changes.

Ummm…anyway, my original caution was to assume the audience may not be representative but I must heed that caution myself in remembering the difficulty of calibrating a political scale based only on the people at hand with whom I'm familiar.

[Kulindahr]

Yes; that is a point I have not considered.

And it is complicated too by a couple of things; You (US posters) seem to span the gamut from far right wing to centre right with a few outliers to the left who would acknowledge themselves as such.

Online, I don't know how it skews but your contention strikes me as reasonable. Probably further so on a self-selecting forum like JUB; gay people skew not so much left, but away from the far right, and posting here requires a tolerance for naughty un-right-wing things like (gasp) porn (blush).

It's not as skewed as it used to be; ten years ago, if the presidential election had been held among those regularly online, Ron Paul would have been a serious contender, because the American 'net was very libertarian-leaning. It still is more than the general population, but not nearly as much as it used to be.

The trend away from that was originally dominated by left-leaners, but that's faded in the last handful of years; probably in five to ten years online will pretty much match general public. A lot of that has been driven by MySpace and FaceBook and similar entities, which draw pretty much everyone (some of my mom's 80+ y.o. friends are on FaceBook).

Another definite shift came when evangelicals started to realize that the "evil internet" (because it was libertarian and left) could be a "weapon", and now zealots eagerly infest the intertubes "doing battle for Jesus" [which generally means pissing on what He taught in order to "take back America" or something]. When I was still hanging around OSU in '95, evangelicals getting on the web was a big new thing; now they're around in armies (or mobs, which the old barbarian armies were... and the 'evangelicals' act like barbarians in other ways, too).

[Rolyo85]

At the same token they are being weak in insisting that they still be part of the republican party. I'm not saying they should become democrats... but break away completely from the republican party line. GOProud is one of the worst groups I've seen... their rhetoric is just as bad as the main GOP.

Actually GOProud is just a sock puppet for the GOP, and an unwanted one at that. They are so desperate to be accepted by a party that deems them too inconsequential to even pretend it doesn't despise them, that they parrot the worst party propaganda they could find in hopes that it would make them more likeable to the other Republicans. Some of the tweets and quotes I've seen from GOProud are absolutely despicable.

[Rolyo85]

There are no republicans in this forum apparently O.o

[hermanding]

I am sure one's political preference(s) are hardly the only component in the degree of outing one has allowed oneself. It would seem that what the poll might be supposed to show is the more out, the more liberal/democrat, maybe??? I would think there are many exceptions to that for those with the liberal preference, due to all the other components.

[maxpowr9]

I do agree. They are so willing to be accepted by the party that doesn't even like their existence. It's like gay people who support republicans for its views based on other things... like financial matters. I think supporting a party that's against your rights as a citizen is horrible.

I always picture like most gay GOP people, that they are Christian and Republican to appease their parents to keep the trust fund money rolling along. It's either that or they lack the mental capacity for independent thought (I have unfortunately met a few like that).

[vulgar_newcomer]

I am sure one's political preference(s) are hardly the only component in the degree of outing one has allowed oneself. It would seem that what the poll might be supposed to show is the more out, the more liberal/democrat, maybe??? I would think there are many exceptions to that for those with the liberal preference, due to all the other components.

hear~hear!

[Rolyo85]

I addressed this earlier in the topic. Did you not read past the first post? Of course there are so many other factors. I am not saying your level of "outness" determines your political preference. I DO however see a correlation between the two, and the fact that apparently only republicans/conservatives felt "attacked" by this poll, and refused to vote ALSO tells me something. Because I didn't intend it as an attack, and I did my best to make that obvious. I also thought it would be an interesting statistic to have.

But I do believe that more Republicans (not necessarily other conservatives) on average are likely to be closeted, ashamed and conflicted than Democrats. And it does make sense too - Republican "values" (I puked a little in my mouth) as far as gay people are concerned are deeply hateful, at least in the loud section of the party. Obviously someone who chooses to embrace a party that hates him is more likely (not to be read as "is for certain") to be conflicted, ashamed and closeted.

As a side note, I enjoyed my week of being banned by reading the forum while logged out, which gave me a chance to catch up on my Chance posts (see what I did there?). I can't stop marveling at my own prudence in ignoring him ^_^ I don't even remember what he had written in this topic, but I remember how annoyed I was at the level of confrontational one-sidedness.

A lot of that going around... One-sidedness I mean... And just when I was planning on becoming a supporter. Too bad.

[Kulindahr]

As a side note, I enjoyed my week of being banned by reading the forum while logged out, which gave me a chance to catch up on my Chance posts (see what I did there?). I can't stop marveling at my own prudence in ignoring him ^_^ I don't even remember what he had written in this topic, but I remember how annoyed I was at the level of confrontational one-sidedness.

Some people use many, many words to not actually write anything.

[Rolyo85]

I do my best ^_^

[JB3]

The topic is here to discuss if there is a correlation between the two, not if your political stance is THE ONLY THING EVAH that decides whether you're out. Obviously it's not. However, I do notice certain trends and I am curious to see if they are true or not.

Come on, give me some credit


P.S. So far no Republicans/Conservatives have voted. This also tells me stuff ^_^

Except it is flawed to read ANY correlation between the two, because one could be extraordinarily liberal and not be out, or vice versa for conservatives. The two things have little to no bearing on each other.

[JayHawk]

Rolyo I agree with your reply to me sort of... and sorry I didn't return as often as is required to maintain a conversation.

The conservative gay groups convince themselves that deciding something based on other issues that are more pressing for the nation like the economy or the military or foreign relations. So they are perfectly aware of political issues and the two arguments and choice to align themselves with a party for a variety of reasons. I found the number of conservatives caught in gay trysts during the run up to Electing President Obama to be the tale of the tape. They align themselves with hate to gain power.

I think those folks believe power will make them better. Whereas the young guys who have no idea about the issues simply parrot what is around them because that is how you are popular. Both things are self serving.

I know it would be contrary to liberty to do so but having a legitimate test to conform current affairs knowledge would be interesting. I would like to do that as an exit poll and then take the results of those who pass and see what the outcome would be for the elections. I think it would be remarkable. No Obama money voters and no Obama 'birther' idiots.

[Kulindahr]

Except it is flawed to read ANY correlation between the two, because one could be extraordinarily liberal and not be out. The two things have no bearing on each other.

"No bearing"?

Tell me -- in which of these situations is a guy more likely to come out while in high school or even college:

your parents are deacons at the local charismatic Presbyterian church which has links to a "Gay Cure Through Prayer" program and the pastor kicked a family out of the church because they refused to take their lesbian daughter to that program;

your mom is the main parent because your dad travels the world as an environmental advisor, but when he's there he goes to PFLAG in support of a neighbor whose son came out at college so he's trying to come to an understanding of the issue.

[JB3]

Kulindahr I thought you were a defender of science and the use of proper terms? If so, you wouldn't be suggesting that there is a correlation between political stance and how out you are.

[Kulindahr]

Kulindahr I thought you were a defender of science and the use of proper terms? If so, you wouldn't be suggesting that there is a correlation between political stance and how out you are.

I'm suggesting that flat out dismissing the possibility of a correlation is silly when the conditions in families of the different political leanings are closely related to feeling safe when coming out. People's political stances in high school and college are highly related to the family's stance, and one's attitude toward whether it's okay to be gay is also highly related to the family's stance. It is thus reasonable to expect there to be a correlation, and reasonable to venture the hypothesis that young people are less likely to come out when they have conservative beliefs than when they have liberal ones.

I'll venture that whatever issues may inhibit liberals from coming out will be found as frequently among conservatives. But conservatives have a rack of issues that inhibit coming out which liberals don't share. On that basis, it's likely that the hypothesis is correct, and the question becomes one of just how high the correlation is.

[Rolyo85]

My point exactly. Thanks for saying it better than me, Kuli.

[Kulindahr]

My point exactly. Thanks for saying it better than me, Kuli.

Bitte.

I have my moments.

[Rolyo85]

Ha! This topic was never locked Chance didn't do his job well I guess. Shall we have another go at it then?

[palbert]

Kulindahr I thought you were a defender of science and the use of proper terms? If so, you wouldn't be suggesting that there is a correlation between political stance and how out you are.

Sorry to disappoint, but Kuli's governing force is to be a contrarian. That way he dodges all labels and can endorse conflicting positions in different threads. His position will be the most "logically pure'" (provided you stay in the North Woods).

[TX-Beau]

Straight people are telling me how straight they are all the fucking time for no fuckng "reason" whatsoever - I don't mind straight people, so long as they don't force me to witness their shame.

[Rolyo85]

Sorry to disappoint, but Kuli's governing force is to be a contrarian. That way he dodges all labels and can endorse conflicting positions in different threads. His position will be the most "logically pure'" (provided you stay in the North Woods).

He happens to be correct though, and he did defend the claim. It is naive to think there is no correlation. Of course, one has to be mentally challenged to think said correlation would be "being conservative makes you closeted", but rather "circumstances of environment, family and the like, which would force you to be closeted, could be the same that would make you embrace conservative values". And I give this as an example, not an actual statement.

And to me, it's still telling which people refused to participate.

[TX-Beau]

Being "conservative" makes you closeted because if the "conservatives" knew about your faggot ass you'd be kicked out of the car.

[palbert]

He happens to be correct though, and he did defend the claim. It is naive to think there is no correlation. Of course, one has to be mentally challenged to think said correlation would be "being conservative makes you closeted", but rather "circumstances of environment, family and the like, which would force you to be closeted, could be the same that would make you embrace conservative values". And I give this as an example, not an actual statement.

And to me, it's still telling which people refused to participate.

I rest my case.

A pure Ellsworth Toohey.

[Rolyo85]

I rest my case.

A pure Ellsworth Toohey.

Offer reasoning, if you disagree, instead of referring to names I don't know