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RationalLunacy
November 23rd, 2005, 07:30 PM
I'm a former Jehovah's Witness, ousted from the religion 25 years ago because I'm gay. I belong to the support group for gay ex Jehovah's Witnesses called A Common Bond (http://www.gayxjw,org/).

Any other gay JWs or exJWs out there?

RationalLunacy
January 5th, 2006, 08:48 PM
Hi, I was df'd in 1983 after I came out. I used to read a newsletter that was similar to common bond, might have even been common bond but it was too much about bashing the Watchtower instead of helping me get over it.
There was a Common Bond newsletter that was published in Pittsburgh years ago. The last newsletter that I know of was published in 1999. Since then, A Common Bond has established quite a presence on the internet, with members all over the world. In fact, we're holding international conferences every year. We've tried to get away from the "Watchtower bashing" and concentrate more on support, although there are plenty of members who, for obvious reasons, are pretty pissed off at the way they were treated. It's all part of the grieving process. I've been out for 25+ years, so I'm in support mode rather than revenge and bash mode.

dmann
January 9th, 2006, 12:15 AM
Hi, I was df'd about 25 years ago for smoking.

bma1983
January 9th, 2006, 01:19 PM
Hi, I was df'd about 25 years ago for smoking.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that.

dmann
January 10th, 2006, 12:45 AM
I'm sorry, but I don't believe that.

Not only was I disfellowshiped but was disowned by my entire family.

I don't know what they do now. But 25 years ago they could kick you out just for cussing.

RationalLunacy
January 11th, 2006, 11:46 PM
Not only was I disfellowshiped but was disowned by my entire family.

I don't know what they do now. But 25 years ago they could kick you out just for cussing.
They still do, and smoking is still very much a disfellowshippable offense.

WillMc88
January 19th, 2006, 11:11 PM
It's interesting to know that there are other gay (ex or otherwise) JW's on this board. I'm still technically in the congregation. I'm under 20 and still live with my Dad, so it's pretty hard to make my own decisions about this. I've been inactive for about 2 months now. A few people from the KH have been coming over. My older cousin is studying w/ me, and he and his wife came over today and we had an interesting talk.

Earlier today I would've sworn that I knew what I was doing and that I'm gay and that's that. But now, after I talked to my cousin's wife for awhile, I'm not sure. She really opened up and was just one-on-one with me. She's never been that personal with me, and it was nice. I don't want to get into the whole thing, but I'm kinda torn as to what I should do. I actually was hoping to find a topic like this here, lucky me :-) . Don't let this topic die!

RationalLunacy
January 25th, 2006, 03:06 PM
I actually was hoping to find a topic like this here, lucky me :-) . Don't let this topic die!
I have no intention of letting this topic die, believe me! There are too many of us out there, lots of whom are going through what you are going through.

I'd like to invite you (and anyone else reading this) to join our Yahoo discussion group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/acbgroup/). There are over 300 of us in the group from all over the world. Keep posting!

dmann
February 6th, 2006, 10:09 PM
I'm under 20 and still live with my Dad, so it's pretty hard to make my own decisions about this. I've been inactive for about 2 months now. A few people from the KH have been coming over. My older cousin is studying w/ me, and he and his wife came over today and we had an interesting talk.

Earlier today I would've sworn that I knew what I was doing and that I'm gay and that's that. But now, after I talked to my cousin's wife for awhile, I'm not sure. She really opened up and was just one-on-one with me. She's never been that personal with me, and it was nice. I don't want to get into the whole thing, but I'm kinda torn as to what I should do.

If you're not baptized wait!!!...no baptism no control.. There may be a lot of pressure, but it leaves you a lot more options....including a relationship with your family.

I was baptized at 12 to gain the respect of my father. Ironically the baptism is what tore us apart permanently... I knew I could not live that life.](*,)

RationalLunacy
February 9th, 2006, 10:12 AM
If you're not baptized wait!!!...no baptism no control.. There may be a lot of pressure, but it leaves you a lot more options....including a relationship with your family.
I agree 100%. Baptism only makes you susceptible to the stringent rules of the Watchtower, much moreso than if you remain unbaptized. If you value your relationship with your family, please follow dmann's advice.

RationalLunacy
February 9th, 2006, 11:43 PM
Hm, I find the discussion about baptism to be fascinating. How would being baptized subject to more control? You make it sound almost like brain-washing, not baptism.
The process leading up to baptism (at least with Jehovah's Witnesses) is considered by some to be a form of brainwashing, or at least high mind control.

If you get your hands on a copy of their magazine The Watchtower, or any of their study books, you will see that there are small questions at the bottom of each page assigned to each paragraph. Here's a (made up) example:

12. Jehovah's Witnesses are the only true religion, and only Jehovah's Witnesses will survive at Armageddon.
(bottom of page)
12. Who is the only true religion, and who will survive at Armageddon?

Obviously, there can be only one correct answer. This is the indoctrination method Jehovah's Witnesess use to gain new converts. They call this "Bible study". This method does not disappear once you become a member. Rather, it becomes more intense. Jehovah's Witnesses are required to attend five (5) meetings per week. One of these meetings is called the "Watchtower study", where the same question and answer session technique is used on the membership utilizing their official magazine. This is again applied to their weekly book study, where they study a current Watchtower publication.

Those who choose to be baptized must prove themselves worthy by participating in and completing such "Bible studies", and then proving their worth by participating in the door to door preaching work, called "field service".

Once baptized, members are bound by a strict volume of rules and edicts. Punishment can come in the form of private reproof, public reproof, or disfellowshipping. Once a baptized person is disfellowshipped, active Witnesses are forbidden to have any contact with that individual other than absolutely necessary. This includes members of one's own family. I know of many gay exJWs who have not had any contact with their families in years, some of whom were thrown out of their homes when they were expelled from the religion.

Hope this helps.....

dmann
February 10th, 2006, 01:42 AM
Rational Lunacy...That was such a great response.:=D:

Have had no communication with my mother for over 20 years, my dad for over 10 years, and other members of the family (aunts and uncles) for 25 years.

When one of my sister's was baptized my dad forced her to call me and say that she could no longer talk or have any type of a relationship with me. We have since reconciled and have a great relationship. (she is now disfellowshiped also).

I was baptised over 30 years ago. I still remember what the speaker said. "Baptism is like signing your name to the top of a contract saying that you will follow and be bound to any provision added below whatever they may be." I was only 12 it sent chills thru me then and still does now.

RationalLunacy
February 10th, 2006, 10:03 AM
I was baptised over 30 years ago. I still remember what the speaker said. "Baptism is like signing your name to the top of a contract saying that you will follow and be bound to any provision added below whatever they may be." I was only 12 it sent chills thru me then and still does now.
I was 17 when I was baptized, on July 4, 1975. As I'm sure you will recall, 1975 was the year we were all convinced Armageddon was coming. I was taught that my only guarantee of survival was to be baptized. My first words when I came out of the baptismal pool (actually, it was an over-chlorinated swimming pool at a Holiday Inn) was "I made it!".

Ostracism comes in many forms when you become a JW. My situation was different than yours. I am the only person in my family to ever become a baptized JW. Both of my parents were "opposers". In fact, my father was a Presbyterian minister! During the years I was a JW, the relationship between myself and my parents was strained at best. We often did not speak at all. I hate to admit it, but I actually prayed for their deaths, because I thought that was the only way I'd see them in the resurrection. I knew they would never convert to JW, and I was afraid they'd be destroyed at Armageddon like all JWs are taught to believe. After I was disfellowshipped, both of my parents told me "I'd rather have a gay son than a Jehovah's Witness son."

In case you've never read my JW story, it's posted here (http://www.gayxjw.org/jimstory.html).

Centexfarmer
February 10th, 2006, 10:32 PM
I'm a former Jehovah's Witness, ousted from the religion 25 years ago because I'm gay. I belong to the support group for gay ex Jehovah's Witnesses called A Common Bond (http://www.gayxjw,org/).

Any other gay JWs or exJWs out there?

I'm sorry! I saw the title of this thread and instantly went running into the street screaming with my hands in the air! :bartshock

Back when I was "in the closet" and in love with my best-friend since Junior high, I was a member of the First United Pentacostal Church!

I introduced by best-friend to what I had found, and over the years he not only became a member of AMWAY, he also became a Jehovah's Witness! #-o

Mind you I'm not making a comparison of the two....:badgrin:

MANY years later....I'm OUT AND PROUD, and he was afraid to introduce me to his Pentacostal Bride! Not because I'm GAY, but because she's Pentacostal! :rotflmao:

He figured that I would laugh my ass off at the irony, and that she would "pray for me" knowing that as a now "Gay-Redneck-Buddhist" I can still "quote scripture" better than either of them can!

So, all that I have to offer is this..."Your perspective, is your reality!"

Which is to say, there are worse things to you can be fretting about!


NAMASTE!

(*8*)

dmann
February 13th, 2006, 10:38 PM
In case you've never read my JW story, it's posted here (http://www.gayxjw.org/jimstory.html).

Thanks Rational Lunacy...so many things I could relate to in your story.

For the last several weeks I have been attending a Presbyterian Church that is a fully welcoming church which invites all to life and leadership.

Also I found a common bond, I just made contact with someone there. It is really nice to talk to some who know the life in "the truth" :wave: and out of it.

Kulindahr
February 14th, 2006, 05:11 AM
Rational Lunacy...That was such a great response.:=D:

Have had no communication with my mother for over 20 years, my dad for over 10 years, and other members of the family (aunts and uncles) for 25 years.

When one of my sister's was baptized my dad forced her to call me and say that she could no longer talk or have any type of a relationship with me. We have since reconciled and have a great relationship. (she is now disfellowshiped also).



Suddenly my family walking out on me at Christmas doesn't seem so harsh.
Wow.

RationalLunacy
February 14th, 2006, 07:13 PM
Guys I am 25 years old and grew up as one of Jehovah wittenss. I was a full time pioneer for almost 5 years. I was on Circuit Assembly parts, Convitions, you name it I had a part in it. I was the model JW. I told my family that I was gay, and that I was living with my b/f for the pas year. (yes I was inactive for the whole time). I have lost my family and understand why I have. I knew that going in. I still belive EVERYTHING. It is truly the only thing that makes since to me. Yes I have looked into other stuff. But no matter what people say, JW are GOOD people. They really try to live up to the bible laws. And yes I can NOT be one if I am gay. But I still try to live as close to them as I can. Jehovah does not tell you anything that can hurt you. They are a great org. And I do belive that being gay is a choice. And I have made that choice.(to each there own) But I am just here to say that I miss Jehovahs org. and I hope that one day I can go back and be one of Jehovahs people before its to late. So all im asking is that there is NO reason to bash Jehovahs Witnesses. Jehovah laws they are put there to protect us, not to hurt us.
rod8099, you sound like so many people I've known through the years, who are now or have been involved with the JWs and are gay. I agree with you that there are many people in the JWs who are good people. In fact, after I was disfellowshipped, one of the members of my congregation came to my house (no one else knew about this) and told me how much he admired me and how courageous he thought I was for standing up for myself as a gay man. Some years later, I corresponded with an ex-elder from my congregation (straight) who was disfellowshipped (I'm not sure what for), and said the same brother came to his house and offered him support as well. I do not believe that JWs as individuals are evil people. There are good people out there who need structure in their lives, and need to be told how to conduct themselves without freedom of thought. As long as such people exist, the JWs and other similar religions will continue to flourish. If the JWs ever ceased to exist, I have no doubt that there would be tens of thousands of people out there who would no longer have any purpose in life, i.e.: to preach and find other new converts, attend meetings 5 times a week, and to go to periodic assemblies.

Do I miss being a JW? For a long time, I missed the fellowship of like-minded people. Since A Common Bond (http://www.gayxjw.org/) has come into existence, I've renewed that bond of fellowship.

Do I believe the JWs have the truth? Partly. Some of their doctrines are accurate, but I've studied the Bible for the last 25 years in Hebrew and Greek, and I am convinced that the passages used to condemn homosexuality are mistranslations. You can read my conclusions here (http://www.gayxjw.org/bible.html).

Remember the ancient Beroeans, who verified everything before determining if it were truth or not. If you are willing, I very strongly suggest you obtain a copy of the book Crisis of Conscience, by Raymond Franz, a former member of the JW Governing Body. You can order it on line here (http://www.gayxjw.org/bookstore.html). It is not a JW-bashing book, and allows the reader to draw their own conclusions. It really helped me a lot.

Please join our discussion group that I linked in a previous post above. You'll be amazed at how many of us there are, and you will find all the support you could ever want!

Keep on posting, and stay in touch!

RationalLunacy
February 14th, 2006, 07:19 PM
Thanks Rational Lunacy...so many things I could relate to in your story.

For the last several weeks I have been attending a Presbyterian Church that is a fully welcoming church which invites all to life and leadership.

Also I found a common bond, I just made contact with someone there. It is really nice to talk to some who know the life in "the truth" :wave: and out of it.
It's ironic that my father was a Presbyterian minister, and I left the Presbyterian church to become a JW. :eek:

Yes, I saw that you joined our discussion group. I'm one of the moderators. I don't post a lot due to my work schedule (and the amount of time I spend on JUB! ;) ), but I'm sure you'll get to know some great people. Think about coming to our convention in NYC (http://www.gayxjw.org/acbconference/) this fall if you can. I'd love to meet some other exJW JUBbers!

RationalLunacy
February 23rd, 2006, 11:27 AM
Thought I'd better bring this back up to the top in light of Prophet22's post about doomsday and his use of the name "Jehovah". Maybe he'll see that there is support out there and he'll seek it out instead of trying to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

RationalLunacy
February 23rd, 2006, 06:50 PM
:kiss:hold on all my brothers.........agape love........kerry:kiss:
Agape love right back at ya, Kerry! (*8*) :kiss:

dmann
February 27th, 2006, 09:45 PM
I respect other peoples views a lot - but what pisses me off about you guys... JW's that is. Is the knocking on peoples doors trying to shove your shite down my throat.

I dont beleive, i never will beleive, now leave me the fuck alone.

Rant over...


I had 5 JW's knock on my door in a week the other week... enuf is enuf - next ones gonna get smacked.

Better yet next time just tell them you're "disfellowshiped" and watch them trip over themselves to get away from you. They will then note on their territory card and you won't have to deal with them again. It's also funnier than hell watching them run away for talking to someone that is disfellowshiped, they won't be able to get away from you fast enough, and will not return.
:didisay:

RationalLunacy
February 28th, 2006, 07:53 AM
Just out of interest - mainly because of my arrogance towards JW's - what EXACTLY is it they preach about?
Here are a few JW doctrines:

* They believe that only 144,000 people will go to heaven when they die. They believe the rest of us (called "the great crowd" or "the other sheep") will spend the rest of eternity on Earth.

* They believe that Armageddon (the "end of the world") will come before the last of the 144,000 has died, and they claim that most of them were born before 1914, so there isn't much time left. Of course, they predicted Armageddon to materialize in 1879, 1914, 1915, 1935 and 1975. They currently do not have a date in mind.

* Jehovah's Witnesses are forbidden to have blood transfusions, even if it is the only means of saving their life.

* They do not believe in the trinity. They believe that Jesus was Michael the Archangel in Heaven before he came to earth. They do not pray to Jesus, but pray through Jesus to God.

* They are forbidden to celebrate Christmas, Easter, or birthdays because they are pagan holidays. They are, however, allowed to celebrate wedding anniversaries.

* They believe that homosexuality is "an abomination" that is caused by masturbation. (Yes, they really said this in one of their books! :eek: )

* They are terrified of anything demonic, and believe in demon possession.

* They are forbidden to pledge allegiance to any flag or sing any country's national anthem.

Shall I go on? There's lots more!

dmann
February 28th, 2006, 07:30 PM
Ooookkkkkaaaayyyyyy...................

So if they are so blatently smoking the wacky 'baccy.... why does ANYONE consider joining them?

They're doctorines are absolute maddness!!!!

:rotflmao:

Well I was raised JW so I knew nothing different, as I couldn't have any friends that weren't JW's.

They don't tell you all the rules until you have been baptized and they have control over you. It is really kinda sad. After they have control they rule by fear. When I was kicked out they told me "God does not love you any more." If your family is also involved you can lose your family all your friends. It is a major head trip to have all the people that you grew up with turn their back on you all at once. But before your baptized all you see is the kind loving side and not the authoritarian dictatorship.:grrr:
Sorry even after 25 years there are still some pain and bitterness against the JW's.

Kulindahr
February 28th, 2006, 07:40 PM
Here are a few JW doctrines:

* They believe that only 144,000 people will go to heaven when they die. They believe the rest of us (called "the great crowd" or "the other sheep") will spend the rest of eternity on Earth.

* They believe that Armageddon (the "end of the world") will come before the last of the 144,000 has died, and they claim that most of them were born before 1914, so there isn't much time left. Of course, they predicted Armageddon to materialize in 1879, 1914, 1915, 1935 and 1975. They currently do not have a date in mind.

* Jehovah's Witnesses are forbidden to have blood transfusions, even if it is the only means of saving their life.

* They do not believe in the trinity. They believe that Jesus was Michael the Archangel in Heaven before he came to earth. They do not pray to Jesus, but pray through Jesus to God.

* They are forbidden to celebrate Christmas, Easter, or birthdays because they are pagan holidays. They are, however, allowed to celebrate wedding anniversaries.

* They believe that homosexuality is "an abomination" that is caused by masturbation. (Yes, they really said this in one of their books! :eek: )

* They are terrified of anything demonic, and believe in demon possession.

* They are forbidden to pledge allegiance to any flag or sing any country's national anthem.

Shall I go on? There's lots more!


I saw something that said the Watchtower once had an official statement that people who eat from aluminum cookware can't go to heaven....

RationalLunacy
February 28th, 2006, 08:25 PM
I saw something that said the Watchtower once had an official statement that people who eat from aluminum cookware can't go to heaven....
Well....sort of. They were strongly cautioned not to eat from aluminum cookware because they thought aluminum was poison. In fact, they went so far as to compare "aluminum poisoning" to syphilis. This was in the late 1920s to early 1930s. Most modern JWs don't even know about this. The Watchtower Society tries very carefully to bury old mistakes, of which there are many. If you want to see some of the old quotes about aluminum, here (http://www.watchtowerinformationservice.org/index.php/watchtower_quotes/medical-science/aluminum/) is a good link.

RationalLunacy
February 28th, 2006, 08:32 PM
Ooookkkkkaaaayyyyyy...................

So if they are so blatently smoking the wacky 'baccy.... why does ANYONE consider joining them?

They're doctorines are absolute maddness!!!!
Unlike dmann, I was not raised a Jehovah's Witness. I joined at the age of 17 in the year 1974. At that time, they were convinced that Armageddon was going to occur in the fall of 1975, and they put up a pretty convincing argument. Utilizing their high mind control method of "Bible study" (see my earlier post), I was inducted into the JWs as a baptized member on July 4, 1975. Why did I join? Partly to save my own ass, yes. But really, I had been raised in a religious family (my father was a Presbyterian minister), and I believed I was being handed a sacred trust -- to try and save as many souls as I could before "the end" came. In the end, I was squeezed of my zeal and discarded like a used dishrag. Do I feel like I was duped and misled? You bet! But to be honest (and this is going to sound a little crazy), I'm glad I had the experience. Being a recovering JW -- especially being a gay recovering JW -- I believe I found that sacred trust after all, just not in the way the JWs had intended me to find it!

antdak
March 1st, 2006, 01:39 PM
This is very nice. I am a gay JW, not active. Every thing said here I can agree with. I too like a few poeple in the org. but not sure they are the right religion for me, at this time. I don't agree with all the JW bashing, or any religion for that matter. Maybe in time I might go back.

RationalLunacy
March 7th, 2006, 05:35 AM
Maybe in time I might go back.
I thought about going back for a long time. Then, I read the book by Raymond Franz called Crisis of Conscience, and that little voice on my shoulder telling me to go back went away. Raymond Franz was a member of the JW Governing Body for years. His book does not "bash" the JWs, but simply presents the facts and lets the reader make their own decisions. If you haven't read it, I strongly recommend it. You can get order it from any local bookstore, or you can order it on Amazon.com.

RationalLunacy
April 4th, 2006, 06:57 PM
This thread's been quiet for a while. Just wondering if there are any more of us out there. I know there must be!

antdak
April 12th, 2006, 06:57 PM
Tonight is supposed to be the night for all Jw's to go to the "Memorial" of Jesus. To be attended by millons around the world. I for one will not be there, since I have not gone to a meeting in over a year, why go to one special one now.

bma1983
April 14th, 2006, 02:13 PM
You people are no different than people who hate or mock or criticize gays for being different. I see how it works, you want everyone in the world to accept gays, but anyone who believes differently than you are lunitics. :rolleyes:

There will never be anyway I will ever, ever speak bad about Jehovah Witnesses. JW's are the nicest people I have even known. They would do anything for you. They have every right in the world to disfellowship those who don't agree with their beliefs. If you were disowned by your family thats your Families discission. Yes, I'm gay and I was a JW my whole life. My mother knows I'm gay. And I know she would rather me not be gay and stay a JW but even if I don't, I know she would never kick me out of her life. Yea, she may not speak to me as much but if I ever need her for any damn thing I know she would be there for me because I'm her child.

RationalLunacy, just because you have some personal vendetta against Jehovah Witnesses doesn't mean that every gay JW or gay ex-JW feels the same.

And no, I'm not brainwashed. If I was my ass wouldn't be here.


I respect other peoples views a lot - but what pisses me off about you guys... JW's that is. Is the knocking on peoples doors trying to shove your shite down my throat.

I dont beleive, i never will beleive, now leave me the fuck alone.

Rant over...


I had 5 JW's knock on my door in a week the other week... enuf is enuf - next ones gonna get smacked.

I was about to say something that would have gotten me banned, so I'll say something else....Why the hell is someone knocking on your door enough to piss you off. If you don't want JW's to come to your door anymore than be an honorable adult and tell them you don't want them to visit your home anymore. Being a rude jerk ain't worth it.

RationalLunacy
April 14th, 2006, 05:53 PM
RationalLunacy, just because you have some personal vendetta against Jehovah Witnesses doesn't mean that every gay JW or gay ex-JW feels the same.
I have been accused many, many times over the years of having a "personal vendetta" against the JWs, being a "JW-basher", etc..

Please back up your statement about my "personal vendetta" with fact. I'm not asking this in the form of a challenge. I'm asking this because for the life of me I can't understand how my being honest about the miserable way I was treated by the JWs, both as a JW and afterward, could be misinterpreted as anything but a statement of fact.

I have asked many others who have pointed the finger of accusation at me over the years the same question. I have yet to receive a coherent response. I hope you will be the first.

Let's keep this civil, please?

bma1983
April 14th, 2006, 07:19 PM
I have been accused many, many times over the years of having a "personal vendetta" against the JWs, being a "JW-basher", etc..

Please back up your statement about my "personal vendetta" with fact. I'm not asking this in the form of a challenge. I'm asking this because for the life of me I can't understand how my being honest about the miserable way I was treated by the JWs, both as a JW and afterward, could be misinterpreted as anything but a statement of fact.

I have asked many others who have pointed the finger of accusation at me over the years the same question. I have yet to receive a coherent response. I hope you will be the first.

Let's keep this civil, please?

I always try to be civil.

Now, I don't know you form Adam. All I know about you is what you wrote here. Your posts (especially posts # 11, 13, and 15) SCREAM vendetta. Obviously I'm not the only one who thinks that. As you pointed out, you've been accused of it before, maybe that should tell you something. Ex. in post 13 you eluded that baptism=brainwash, are you truly serious. Please explain the JW process of brainwash. I really would like to know. Are people who are baptized in other religions brainwashed? As I said before, if I was brainwashed my ass wouldn’t be here.

You're "honest" from your own standpoint. Not like I really care but, how were you treated miserably? Did they verbally abuse you? Call you a fag? Beat you up? Spit on you? Or, did they tell you your actions weren’t in agreement to Bible scripture and if you continue you’ll be disfellowshiped? Even if you were treated badly by some JW’s why would you let their behavior cloud your opinion on others? I myself have encountered some (very few) haughty JW’s. That’s there problem. My relationship with God has nothing to do with imperfect men. I have never read any JW literature that said treat gay people like shit. Yea I've read that homosexuality is wrong and should be avoided. So what. Most of the religions in the world say the same thing. And that's their right.

It seems you never got over the fact that you were disfellowshiped. That’s your problem. Move on. Get a life. Just because you have problems with JW’s doesn’t mean that other gay JW’s or gay ex-JW’s feel the same.

RationalLunacy
April 14th, 2006, 10:25 PM
I always try to be civil.

Now, I don't know you form Adam. All I know about you is what you wrote here. Your posts (especially posts # 11, 13, and 15) SCREAM vendetta. Obviously I'm not the only one who thinks that. As you pointed out, you've been accused of it before, maybe that should tell you something. Ex. in post 13 you eluded that baptism=brainwash, are you truly serious.
There are many things I have been accused of in my lifetime. Sometimes I have been accused repeatedly of the same thing. This does not prove it to be true. For example, because I am gay, I am accused by every faithful Jehovah's Witness of being "an abomination" because the religion tells them they must accuse me of being such, whether or not these are their own personal feelings. Just because tens of thousands of people accuse me of being "an abomination" does not make me an abomination.


Please explain the JW process of brainwash. I really would like to know. Are people who are baptized in other religions brainwashed? As I said before, if I was brainwashed my ass wouldn’t be here.
The "education" techniques used by the Jehovah's Witnesses are commonly recognized in religious, philosophical, and psychiatric circles as a form of high mind control, which can be percieved as a form of brainwashing. Here (http://www.cephasministry.com/mind_control.html) is an interesting article showing how many religions (and the military) utilize such tactics.


You're "honest" from your own standpoint. Not like I really care but, how were you treated miserably? Did they verbally abuse you? Call you a fag? Beat you up? Spit on you? Or, did they tell you your actions weren’t in agreement to Bible scripture and if you continue you’ll be disfellowshiped? Even if you were treated badly by some JW’s why would you let their behavior cloud your opinion on others? I myself have encountered some (very few) haughty JW’s. That’s there problem. My relationship with God has nothing to do with imperfect men. I have never read any JW literature that said treat gay people like shit. Yea I've read that homosexuality is wrong and should be avoided. So what. Most of the religions in the world say the same thing. And that's their right.
Yes, I was verbally abused. When I was brought before the judicial committee, I was told that the only way I would ever be accepted back into the JW fold would be by "repenting" of my homosexuality, and coming back married with not one, but two children of my own fathering "to prove that I was no longer gay". The last words that were spoken to me before I left the Kingdom Hall that day were "God no longer loves you, not for what you do, but for who you are." That, my friend, is verbal abuse. It also affected my relationship with God, because I believed them.


It seems you never got over the fact that you were disfellowshiped. That’s your problem. Move on. Get a life. Just because you have problems with JW’s doesn’t mean that other gay JW’s or gay ex-JW’s feel the same.
I was disfellowshipped over 25 years ago. It took me a long time to move on, but I did. Why do I keep bringing up the subject after all these years? Simple: To let other JWs and exJWs struggling with their sexuality know that they are not alone. What I do comes from the heart.....because I have moved on, and now it is time for me to help others. If you percieve that as a vendetta, so be it. I know in my heart I am doing the right thing. I hope you can find a way that brings you as much peace.

RationalLunacy
April 16th, 2006, 06:27 PM
Before you absolutely make your mind up about what the Bible says about homosexuality, please read this essay (http://www.gayxjw.org/bible.html). It might answer some unanswered questions for you.

Oh, and just so you know, you're not the only JW, baptized or not, leading a double life. I correspond with active JWs all the time. Some decide to leave. Some decide to stay. The choice is yours. If you have some time, this link (http://www.gayxjw.org/activejw.html) might be of interest to you as well, if you haven't already read it.

Whatever your decision, there is a huge group of us (http://www.gayxjw.org/) around the world, active, inactive, disassociated, and disfellowshipped, all of whom are gay and know where you are because we've been there too.

Keep on posting and let us know how you're doing.

(PS) I love your nickname! Don't change it -- it's great!

RationalLunacy
April 16th, 2006, 10:38 PM
See, here's the problem with quoting Bible scripture. You are reading it in English. When the Bible was written, the English language did not exist. There have been so many translations and re-translations of the Bible over the years that it is hard to sort out the accurate ones from those that are way off.

The easiest way I have found is by following the Bible passages along with a copy of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. This way, you do not have to read and write Greek (although I do) in order to understand the true meaning of those passages.

The scripture you quote above is commonly used to condemn homosexuals. In fact, it reads very differently in Greek and, if read in context with the surrounding passages, the clearer picture shows this passage to be a condemnation of pagan fertility rituals and other paan worship practices. It has nothing whatsoever to do with loving same-sex relationships.

Let me leave you with this question: If homosexuality is such a bad sin, then why did Jesus Christ himself never say one word on the subject?

I hope this helps you.

Nonimus
April 17th, 2006, 11:24 AM
Rational Lunacy! Two Things:

You're spot on with the translation/Mistranslation of the Biblical texts and their mis-use by Christians

and 2:

You were 17 in 1974????

RationalLunacy
April 17th, 2006, 03:18 PM
Rational Lunacy! Two Things:

You're spot on with the translation/Mistranslation of the Biblical texts and their mis-use by Christians
I've been studying the Bible in Hebrew and Greek for over 25 years. There is absolutely nowhere in the original language texts that I can find any condemnation of loving same-sex relationships. The only condemnation of same-sex sex that appears in the Bible is when it is engaged in by heterosexuals with the high priests and/or temple prostitutes as a means of gaining favor with the various pagan gods as a fertility ritual.


and 2:

You were 17 in 1974????
Yes, honey, and by the looks of your photo (if that's you), I'm quite likely old enough to be your grand......oh, forget it! ;)

RationalLunacy
May 12th, 2006, 10:58 AM
Quick update:
The New York City chapter of A Common Bond, the support group for GLBT former Jehovah's Witnesses, just posted details on their upcoming international conference in New York City over Labor Day at:
http://www.acbnyc.com/acb08.html

I plan on being there. In fact, I've been asked to be one of the speakers! :eek:

Sebastian101
May 12th, 2006, 05:22 PM
I have a cousin who left his wife because she converted to JW and among the many mandates was one of ----'though shall not suck cock'----("the spilling of the seed")------this with the fact that she wouln't even attend a family BBQ on the 4th---or Thanksgiving----and hated our Catholic-Latin ever celebrating families (hey about those 'quinceaneras'-----just blew it all apart--I loved the part where she would tell us that only 144M souls would go to heaven-----and the rest of the JWs would inherit the earth-As if heaven had a capacity issue or if the administrators lived up in the palace clouds and the rest lived in earth farming potatos--------and so and so on----Our response to these concepts were simply to question the reason why they would constantly give God really dumb human attributes when supposedly he is greater than all that -----do you really think that God (this max-supreme being) cared if she sucked my coz's ( her husband's) cock---don't think so---

WillMc88
May 29th, 2006, 06:20 PM
I have no intention of letting this topic die, believe me! There are too many of us out there, lots of whom are going through what you are going through.

I'd like to invite you (and anyone else reading this) to join our Yahoo discussion group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/acbgroup/). There are over 300 of us in the group from all over the world. Keep posting!

Hey RL, I signed up to join the yahoo group you mentioned. I was wondering how long does it usually take to get a reply?

RationalLunacy
May 31st, 2006, 03:30 PM
Hey RL, I signed up to join the yahoo group you mentioned. I was wondering how long does it usually take to get a reply?
The group has 6 mods all over the world, so it's usually only a matter of a few hours, depending on when the mods log on.

If you're still not approved, PM me here at JUB & I'll add you to the group, since I'm one of the mods of the Yahoo group.

BoxerBriefs72
June 9th, 2006, 10:40 PM
I'm actually attending the meetings still, but having trouble with my attraction towards guys. I've been inactive for many years, but still believe in the ideas and rules of the bible. Glad to see I'm not the only one.

Kurn
June 12th, 2006, 11:15 PM
Joe, sweety, I assume "York" is the Old York in England.
America is a modern wonder. It is also, to a large degree, moreso than England or even Ulster, a Land where many millions are obsessed with what the Bible says. In that context, if you can convince someone that the rail road of Scripture leads a certain way, you will have a few freight cars of people roll your way. That's a big part of America. Some of us are sane. Quite a lot of us. But if you want sanity more for sure, go to Canada. ;)

Kurn
June 12th, 2006, 11:32 PM
I'm a bit of a theologian; I have to say that the Watchtower does NOT have good theology.
It is a connect-the-dots theology. Many religions do the same so I am not singling out the JW's. I am also not advocating any particular sectarian view. My insight is a little difficult to explain but if you are curious/if you are really seeking the love of God, you can e-mail me.

Kurn
June 13th, 2006, 03:24 PM
Pls excuse my bluntness.
I REALLY appreciate the discussion that you brothers have shared. I can testify that the JW's are fine, loving people as many have said. Many exude an enjoyable simplicity that is refreshing compared to many 'evangelicals.'
Speaking as a rationalist, I have to say that the unitarian theology is not as obvious a given as so many people think. But I don't think God gives out theology grades that you must be passing to go to heaven.
If GOD created everything, including time, it would be that TO US, God is three-persons. This is not a sectarian argument; it has more to do with thinking about Calculus.
Furthermore, if God created an IDEA world out of which the World is Created, it would mean that the One is essentially Three. ---Because then God would not only exist outside of time, but outside the Idea of Time. If God is Real, either God is Zero or God is Three.
You have to think about this a while, maybe.

RationalLunacy
June 14th, 2006, 08:06 AM
I'm a bit of a theologian; I have to say that the Watchtower does NOT have good theology.
It is a connect-the-dots theology.
It's more of a "connect-the-scriptures" theology. If you read their literature, they constantly cite Bible scripture. However, the scriptures are quoted piecemeal and, as is especially the case with the passages they cite to condemn homosexuality, often taken out of context.

Kurn
June 14th, 2006, 01:34 PM
It's more of a "connect-the-scriptures" theology. If you read their literature, they constantly cite Bible scripture.

In my days as a young evangelical I connected a lot of scripture. But this insight came from when I was a kid and didn't know any better. I found that if you think about it carefully enough, that the Unitarian thesis doesn't hold up. It seems simple enough, monotheist-enough and so on. Famous scholars like Karen Armstrong adopt it as a tacit assumption. Yet, what I'm saying, If Creator-God exits as such, And, If Creator-God made existence and the basis of existence, then the Numberness of God is not Ordinary. I'm making this up; sounds OK. It's always been hard to explain. I firmed it up in my mind after having taken a Calculus course with its Orders of Significance. The number of God is not ordinary. Either He exists outside of our Order of Existence or He is not. If Creator-God exists He is One-Three. Why Three? and not Two or Four or Forty? All I can say is you have to cogitate about it awhile.


So trinitarianism does NOT necessarily have anything to do with the Council of Nicaea and Constantine and so on.
A few souls over the years happened to think carefully enough to see it for themselves.

antdak
June 28th, 2006, 11:47 AM
Its been awhile since I said anything here, not that there is anything to say really! I thought it interesting how my views have changed in just a few months. I said in time I might go back, I can't see that happening, at least not any time soon. I guess I'm still in confict with what I was raised with, as a JW, as to feeling guilty by not being in the organization. It too is all I have known, and like RL said before, there are some people I miss, but I do NOT miss going to meetings 3 times a week. I ran into an elder the other night, and some of the things he said made me cringe, like the JW's are the only organization who truly cares about their people, he said no where in the world will you find that kind of love. I was cringing, thinking OK where where they when my wife left me, and I was put on public reproof? OH NO, I'm getting into JW bashing. . .sorry, I said I would never do that!! Please excuse me!

RationalLunacy
June 28th, 2006, 01:19 PM
OH NO, I'm getting into JW bashing. . .sorry, I said I would never do that!! Please excuse me!
I don't see any JW-bashing anywhere in your post. Maybe a little sarcasm, but underneath it all, your post has a ring of (pardon the pun) truth.

Personally, if you gave me the choice to spend a day in a room full of JWs, or a room full of JUBbers, guess which room I'd choose?
[The above question is rhetorical.]

RationalLunacy
August 2nd, 2006, 02:30 PM
Quick update:
The New York City chapter of A Common Bond, the support group for GLBT former Jehovah's Witnesses, just posted details on their upcoming international conference in New York City over Labor Day at:
http://www.acbnyc.com/acb08.html

I plan on being there. In fact, I've been asked to be one of the speakers! :eek:
So if you want to meet me and watch me make a fool of myself trying to do public speaking (which I totally suck at), you have less than a month to make arrangements. The conference is going to be September 1 through September 3.

cAndId
August 27th, 2006, 11:03 PM
This is probably a cliche story, but here is my story.

I grew up as a JW, my entire family are Jehovahs witnesses... my sisters, parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents etc. I used to want to be baptized and fit in with the world as I knew it... but after denying who I was I realize I am gay and that it isnt wrong as I was always taught. It took me until about 4 or 5 months ago to accept myself and not feel as if I had to suppress who I was in order to avoid god's punishment and death... now that I think about it I was thinking completely irrationally. I normally thought of myself as a rational, intelligent, polite human being... obviously when I started to not believe what I was being taught since birth my self-image and entire self-esteem crashed. I used to have grades at the top of my class, but in high school my marks slipped, I wasnt focused, I wasnt doing all the work... needless to say I was depressed.

I remember before I came to accept my sexuality, I hid away in my room with the window covered and the door locked, laying in bed... I shut out my family and friends and I became a jerk. I pushed away my friends, got into arguments with them over nothing. I was mad at myself for losing my patience and calm polite behaviour. Of course I learned to be manipulative and learned how to get out of certain conversations about what was going on with me, I learned to manipulate my parents into believing I was moving forward with my life when I was just sitting in my room feeling sorry for myself.

Eventually I fought through that behaviour and changed back into the person I wanted to be... but that involved me coming to terms with who I was. I have always wanted to be the perfect JW, I wanted to pioneer, become a ministerial servant and give talks at congregation meetings. I would go out in service as much as I could... but I didnt feel right. I remember one time I was in a car group and we were in a parking lot, just ahead of us a lesbian couple were getting into thier car- we saw the rainbow flag on the back window- I remember looking at them and then hearing 'faggots'... It was said in a hate filled tone... of course the other witnesses in the vehicle didnt take offence to that expression of hate... they started to talk about how disgusting homosexuality was. I just remember feeling terrible after that.

Ever since birth I was taught that you have to be a jehovahs witness to survive armageddon. You must conform to thier ideals as its the only true way to live. I dont believe that any longer. I believe in what jesus taught. I believe I should treat other as I want to be treated. I believe I should not talk about someone with hate. I believe happiness comes through being proud of who I am, through helping other people, through not allowing hate to build up.

All I know is that I do not want to be somewhere where I am going to be hated for who I am. I do not want to feel opressed. I cannot be who I am and be a JW. I dont believe JW's teach the whole truth. I do not hate JW's, there is alot of them who are kind loving people, but contrary to what I was taught, those type of people do exist outside the religion. I love my family more than anything. I know what could happen when I tell them who I am. I am not afraid anymore. I cannot control how they will react, I can only control whether or not I am lying to them.

It was actually web sites like A Common Bond that allowed me to see I wasnt alone and it opened my eyes as to how the bible had been mistranslated and so blatantly taken out of context. Thank you!!

I will join that mailing list...

Rmonty206
September 15th, 2006, 09:09 AM
Not only was I disfellowshiped but was disowned by my entire family.

I don't know what they do now. But 25 years ago they could kick you out just for cussing.

NAHHHH...... not so.
Lets be realistic on this one.

RationalLunacy
September 15th, 2006, 09:39 AM
NAHHHH...... not so.
Lets be realistic on this one.
Realistically, it depends on the severity of the congregation's body of elders. Some congregations were (and likely still are) more tolerant of their members' behavior, while others enjoy a good witch hunt, and will target certain individuals in the congregation simply because they do not care for them. I know of one ex Witness in Arizona who was a victim of such a witch hunt. The elders in his congregation were so convinced he was gay (in fact, he is, but at that time he was a faithful celibate JW) that they took turns parking in front of his home around the clock waiting for him to bring another male home with him (which he never did). The stalking got so bad that he actually had to go to court and swear out a restraining order against the elders in his own congregation! Of course, he was disfellowshipped.

In my own case, I was put on public reproof back in the late 1970s for going to see The Rocky Horror Picture Show in the theater. No, I'm not kidding!

As to cussing, I doubt someone could be disfellowshipped just for using bad language, unless the person had already been placed on reproof and was unrepentant before the judicial committee. It is possible.

Rmonty206
September 15th, 2006, 11:22 AM
Realistically, it depends on the severity of the congregation's body of elders. Some congregations were (and likely still are) more tolerant of their members' behavior, while others enjoy a good witch hunt, and will target certain individuals in the congregation simply because they do not care for them. I know of one ex Witness in Arizona who was a victim of such a witch hunt. The elders in his congregation were so convinced he was gay (in fact, he is, but at that time he was a faithful celibate JW) that they took turns parking in front of his home around the clock waiting for him to bring another male home with him (which he never did). The stalking got so bad that he actually had to go to court and swear out a restraining order against the elders in his own congregation! Of course, he was disfellowshipped.

In my own case, I was put on public reproof back in the late 1970s for going to see The Rocky Horror Picture Show in the theater. No, I'm not kidding!

As to cussing, I doubt someone could be disfellowshipped just for using bad language, unless the person had already been placed on reproof and was unrepentant before the judicial committee. It is possible.

Your experience with this sounds interesting...It would be interesting to talk to you somehow and compare notes as I am at a crossroads on this.

cAndId
September 15th, 2006, 02:17 PM
On what exactly are you at a crossroads?

RationalLunacy
September 15th, 2006, 04:15 PM
Your experience with this sounds interesting...It would be interesting to talk to you somehow and compare notes as I am at a crossroads on this.
Feel free to PM me. I'd be interested in hearing about your crossroads, too.

Mstrbkr54
October 4th, 2006, 05:23 PM
WOW- I need to say my piece here---
I grew up in a split JW home-mom was, dad DEFINETLY was not. SO many fights, disagrements, you name it. This went on literally to the day mom died, then my dad would not even honor her in a service in the faith she loved.
For the most part, they are good God-fearing people. Honest and dedicated to say the least. But it is a take-it-or-leave-it group. Everything is black or white. No gray areas here. Children are not allowed to play with other kids-no parties, some no television, radio, and are subjected to the rigors of some 5 meetings per week, hours on end, studying side by side with adults. Some of the material was presented in ways that still cause me nightmares today. The Elders rule, and often in tight clicks that are prone to gossip and often caste layering in the congregation. My mother was once brought up on charges by a brother for a casual comment she made about a non-married couple attending meetings together. It got so bad this couple didn't return, Mom was charged with "Spiritual Murder" My sister was once told she finally had a "Christian Haircut". I could go on and on.
As i got older, I knew I could never come out to her (and was told so by close family) and never did-she was in frail health and knew she would never deal with it. This caused me endless grief-have finally put all that guilt and shame aside.

through the internet, I discovered alot of information-common bond as one of them. If you are interested, read the stories of Roger Franz-Barbara Anderson, Silence of the Lambs and the Homosexuality @ Bethel, the Watchtower Headquarters in Brooklyn. Talk about skeletons!!!!

I am in no way bashing-only relating the material I personally experienced, read about, and finall drew conclusions of my own.

I knew I would never be accepted and could not live a lie, so I was never baptized. Funny, I made that decision some 30 years ago, before I even accepted the fact that I was gay.

antdak
October 4th, 2006, 05:37 PM
Thanks for sharing your story! And welcome to JUB!

cAndId
October 4th, 2006, 07:36 PM
Welcome to jub!

cAndId
October 15th, 2006, 01:19 PM
Thanks for your post Orlando!

I understand what you are saying and I feel I am in the spot you are in. I however look at it differently, I love my family wholeheartedly and I love the friends that I have made amongst the witnesses... but my love for my friends and family does not conflict with my decision to be who I am. I know they love me and if they truly love me they will accept my decision because that is the only way I will be happy. My relatives and my parents and siblings are all selfless and loving people deep down and I know I am not a selfish person and I feel that it isnt a matter of being inconsiderate to the feelings of other people to make the decision to be true to one's self and to be a happy person. I have gone back and forth in my head to try and supress who I am and to work against my feelings for the same sex, but I know I cannot do that without hurting myself and causing myself alot of pain. The only way I can be happy is to be myself and I can be myself while still holding on to the values and principles I was raised with. The most imporant thing is love... and if my friends and family love me, I know they will respect my decision to love who I am and to not to continue to work against that... at least I hope they will.

Regardless, I respect your decision! I hope you can find happiness (*8*)

cAndId
October 15th, 2006, 06:14 PM
LOL nice illustration ..|

but I tend to think the reverse is true... Isnt it selfish for the world around us to tell us what they think is morally acceptable and what God wants? I read an illustration that made a lot of sense to me... I will quote it:

Does the sparrow apologize to the mouse because it can fly while the mouse cannot? Should the mouse be saddened because the sparrow can fly while it is stuck on the ground? If the mouse were upset because the sparrow could fly should the bird stay on the ground for the rest of its life? These are silly, cheesy questions but the answer is of course not. We are who we are, most of us (if not all) were born this way. Unfortunately for us, we are the sparrows that were told too many times that it is bad to fly. It was beaten into our heads so much that we have been conditioned to feel that the problem is with us. The truth is that being gay is just as natural to us as flying is to a bird. To tell us to stop (or that it is wrong) is just as foolish as telling a bird that it is wrong to fly. Why would God create a bird with the overwhelming desire to fly but then punish it when it left the ground?

I dont believe that being gay is wrong, it is the way I was born and I didnt have a say in it. Jesus said that there were only 2 laws (I in fact heard it on the platform this morning lol) and they were that you love God with your whole soul, and you love your neighbour... all the principles that we are to follow stem from those laws. I do not see the love in asking our people not to love members of the same sex even if we are naturally attracted to them. God is love and I do not see the logic in that interpretation of the bible.

...but like you said, this is a very deep subject and I will undoubtably give it a lot of thought until the time I am ready to tell the truth to my parents.

MainEntry
October 15th, 2006, 06:39 PM
All this stuff about JWs pleasing God by following rules, getting baptized, etc. Baptism is a GIFT that "seals us with the cross of Christ", i.e., we are free to serve God and humankind. Religion certainly has its inward-directed elements, but it needs to look at the physical and emotional needs of other persons.

I do not resent JW's knocking on doors. That is fine as long as it is lawful. I simply find JW doctrine to be so sad and joyless. I remember a few months ago bringing plants to patients with birthdays in that month at a convalescent hospital. On patient was JW and I offered her a plant. She had to refuse it because it was sinful to celebrate her birthday. Good grief!

antdak
October 16th, 2006, 11:13 AM
May I respond to the few last posts, of orlandoflhotty? I applaud your desion to NOT live a gay life style, that is diffenalty a choice each of us make. You are still very young, and I hope you find peace and happiness. I have struggled with the gay feelings all my life, being rasied a JW, that it is wrong, sinful to be gay. I was wondering why I still had these feelings, was I not praying hard enough? was I not being the "good JW" enough? What more could I do? No matter how much I prayed for Jehovah's help, I still had the gay feelings. I got married at age 21, hoping that that would help, it did not! I talked to her about my fellings, but she just ignored it and said to pray harder, that she will help all she can. I stuggled with me feelings and being the "good JW" and now the added responsibility of a wife, to help her with her studies, and make sure she is spritually well and happy! Into 5 years of our marrage we were blessed with a daughter. I love both deeply, but that was just another added responsibility. I felt like I was treading water, just keeping my head above the water. The elders suggestions was pray and study, pray and study, attend meetings, study, read the bible more, go in service. All of which I was doing. So why won't these gay feelings go away!! Our marrage was going down, esp the past 2 years or so, communication all but stopped, she did not want to have sex with me anymore, and the last year she started sleeping in another room! Then she told me 2 days before we were to leave for the District Convention, that she was not going to go, and that while we were gone that she was going to move out, and that she is in love with another guy, and etc etc etc. So she left, and I have my daughter. It all makes since now. That was 3 years ago. Just 3 months short of our 21 wedding anniversary! I went to the elders again for help, she refused to talk to them. I was put on Public Reproof, one elder voted for disfellowshiping, but the other 2 said it might do me more harm, now I kinda with they did! My wife left me for another man, and I got disiplined by the elders. I figured that since I have to start over with a new life, why stuggle with these gay feelings any more, so at first I admitted that I was BI, but then realized that I really don't like sex with women, so that makes me gay. I AM GAY!! Now that I know, I can come to terms with it. I have made the choice to live a gay lifestyle now, and I am happier now, than I ever have been in my life. I have had just 2 one night stands with guys, but that left me feeling used. So I decided not to have sex anymore until I have a seroius relationship. I guess that is the JW training. I never cheated on my wife in the 21 year marrage, so why should I be seeking one night stands, it not my thing, a gay guy with morals!! I guess what I am tring to say is that yes you do have a choice to make wheither to live a gay life style or not, but let me tell you that the feelings will never, never, NEVER go away. I do hope you can live a happy peaceful life. I really do!

Rmonty206
October 16th, 2006, 01:20 PM
I agree that the feelings may never go away altogether but one always has a choice on whether to act on these feelings or not. Feelings are only as real as we let them be. If you were a married man who loved his wife and kids but had urges to be with lots of other women. You would have to fight these urges. Keeping them under control wouldn't mean you were denying who you are or being dishonest. It is simply a personal difficulty that you have to deal with, and everyone has one or two of these. Even with something as natural and necessary as eating, some people struggle more than others and have to severly limit themselves in order remain healthy.
Dirty little secrets can cause pschycosis (spelling) and mental hang ups the longer we hide them the worse they get and the more damage they cause. It is for this reason that the bible talks about confession being good for the soul. In our culture (especially redneck areas) though, having same sex feelings is a subject that is very difficult for certain people to talk about or wrap their heads around. If you had an addiction to alcohol or drugs or you slept with your girlfriend , or some other moral problem, there would be all kinds of help available to you and you could pretty much talk to anyone about it without feeling like a pervert or whatever. The Bible shows Gods view on all these kinds of moral issues as being the same. But in this society being "gay" (as they call it for some reason) is somehow the worst or most difficult of them all. It is great that you were able to go to your Dad like you did. You are very fortunate to have such an honest and courageous father who would admit he had dealt with these feelings too. Do you know how difficult this must have been for him to tell you....You are truly loved my friend ! What a great guy he must be. If I were able to go to my father with something like this I'm sure the "gay" thing wouldn't have been such a struggle or had developed into such an issue.
The elders are just ordinary men and the vast majority have no training in dealing with such complex issues. Ultimately they are wanting to help you but at the same time are responsible for keeping any of these situations from affecting other peoples struggle to remain “Spiritually and Physically Clean” they struggle with their own phobias and ignorance on the subject. I know the “party line” is to go to them and spill your guts. I worry however that if because of their own ignorance on the matter or because of having to act out of responsibility to the congregation, you could have the rug pulled out from under your life just when you need the most support. There had been a talk at one of the meetings abou how the congregation would loose Gods blessing if there was wrong doing going on and that because our congregation wasn't growing they felt that someone may be hiding something. I thought it might be me so I went to the elders and they were very nice and caring but you could tell that they didn’t fully understand the whole thing. I hadn't done anything that would warrent disfellowshipment, but to the shock of myself and the others, one elder asked me if I ever wanted to mess around with little children. I couldn’t believe it. I was so embarrased and angry. The other Elders let him know that he was out of line. That same elder was later disfellowshipped himself for god knows what. I worry that he may have or has told someone I know about what I had told them in the elders meeting. If he were to mentioned it to someone I work with for instance It mightruin my career. His wife gives me funny judgemental looking sideways glances and I feel like he probably told her but how will I ever know? It felt good however to tell someone but because of this experience I wonder if I would do it again. If I did I would approach only someone who I was sure was going to handle it properly.
I talked to a few counselors and of course they will tell you whatever is politically correct at the moment rather than encourage you to make a decision for spiritual reasons. So It’s can be a problem finding your way around this situation. All I know is that God is understanding and loving and has surely seen this a million times before since man’s beginning. He knows what we are going through. For me I know that viewing sites like these and looking at porn really fuels the fire so to speak. I am however glad to have found people with the same struggle. I don’t want sexual urges to rule my life nor do I want to become some pathetic looser that lurks around on the internet looking at porn. It would be great to be able to contact people such as ourselves without having to come to websites that seem to be supported by the sales of porn and have roots in organized crime and exploitation of peoples weaknesses and or need for money. I look at what is being depicted in some of these pix and wonder what lead these young guys to stoop to such a level as to let someone photo them in such a private act.

RationalLunacy
October 17th, 2006, 02:53 PM
If the TRUTH is the TRUTH, it will stand up against all such criticisms.
I'm really excited by all this discussion going on in this thread. There are so many viewpoints -- so many different stories -- so many different struggles that go on in the lives of gay Jehovah's Witnesses. I was disfellowshipped 26 years ago, but I well remember my own struggles while I was still active in the Organization. I could have easily written what some of you have said above. I didn't want to leave -- it was they who wanted me out! You see, back in 1980, we didn't hear about people disassociating from the Organization, so if you wanted to leave, you had to do something to deliberately get yourself disfellowshipped. I started smoking. I only wanted to leave because of the miserable way I was being treated by the elders in my congregation. If you haven't read my story, you can read it here (http://www.gayxjw.org/jimstory.html). Once I was out, however, I started doing a lot of independent research on the Bible. I started studying the scriptures in the original Hebrew and Greek, and discovered that the scriptures frequently quoted in Watchtower publications to condemn homosexuality were mistranslations. I had to ask myself: "If homosexuality is such a terrible sin, why did Jesus never make mention of it?" I could not answer this question to my satisfaction until I realized that the scriptures quoted by the Organization meant something entirely different, and had nothing to do whatsoever with loving same-sex relationships. What Free2Bme says above regarding the Truth standing up to all criticisms is so true. It wasn't until I was on the outside looking in that I realized that not everything I'd been taught was as true as I once believed. Yes, I missed my friends at the Hall, but I moved on with my life so as not to interfere in theirs. I knew that they had rules to follow, and I did not want to unnecessarily disrupt their own lives, so I walked away instead of trying to fight my way back in. 26 years later, I'm a very different person than I was in those days. Recovery takes time -- it is a process, not an event.

antdak
October 17th, 2006, 06:09 PM
I would not deture any one from going into the JW org. But if that person has ANY gay feelings whatsoever, then they need to do some serious soul searching. I have been doing quite a bit since reading these post here the past few days. I have been thinking that maybe I HAVE made a mistake by walking away from the Org. Was my marrage a mistake? Where did I go wrong? I know I have a choise, to live a str8 life, should I go back to that life? I keep coming back to the fact that it would not be fair to me or to a female partner if I do. I am a gay man. It would not be a true life of who I am, and isn't that the whole point of being in the TRUTH!!
I'm like RL, I do miss people at the hall, but in the year plus, that I have quit going, I have not had anyone of them call or stop by to see how I am doing. Not one, not even the elders! I mean that much to them! So I have walked away from them to let them live their life. I am happy with my life right now. I am glad I chose to leave the Org. I am the happiest I have ever been in my life!

RationalLunacy
October 17th, 2006, 10:03 PM
why didn't u just moved congregation... elders are people??? If you had issues with certain elder which you felt were "forcing you out?" then i would just moved congregations??? This is in no way meant to sound as an insult to you but, what starts badly ends badly. You said earlier that you enter the org to save ur own ass cause u though that the end was in a few months??? That is no way to enter a lifetime commitment at all? Your gay issues aside.... i belive you have very nice vocabulary and are very alloquent in making your point (excuse my spelling) but...non the less as far as i read this forum is filled with still brothers that are trying to make up their minds.... and telling them basically "Is useless, you'll never win" cause u weren't able to... i'm sorry but that is not good spirited help. Is nice to share ur stories if it makes u feel better, if is theraputical to you, but i would definatelly not feel good about my self at all if i am the cause of someone else's misery. Great, post links to site that have their own belive on what happened.... is our choice to choose on what we belive anyways, that's all this is.
I don't normally make it a habit of defending myself or my actions, but in this case, I feel I must respond to your email. First, I do not take your reply as an insult. In fact, I understand your position better than you may possibly think I do.

In answer to your first question as to why I didn't move to another congregation, if you re-read my story, you will find that in fact I did, and that is where all the trouble started. After I left Pennsylvania under public reproof (for going to see The Rocky Horror Picture Show, by the way!), I moved to Atlanta, where the elders were able to help me back into good standing and lifted my reproof. I then relocated to the island of St. Thomas in the Virgin Islands, where the body of elders contacted both the Atlanta and Pennsylvania congregations. Atlanta sided with me, but Pennsylvania demanded that my reproof be reinstated, even though I had done nothing else to merit reproof. It was at that point that my faith faltered, and I was stumbled.


My message is not "It's useless -- you'll never win", but rather, if I may quote William Shakespeare: "To thine own self be true." I can only speak from my own personal experience. Please don't judge me harshly for what happened to me. It is my story, and it is my experience. If yours is different, I honor your experiences as well. I know many JWs and exJWs who were treated much kindlier than I was, and I know others who suffered unimaginable cruelty at the hands of elders that make my story sound like Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm. We all have our own lives to live, and it is not my place to judge you on how you choose to live yours. On the other hand, considering the amount of suffering I personally experienced, I hope you will understand that the reason I share my story is not to "bash" the JWs, but to let other people know that they are not alone, and that there is support for them out here. If I can help just one other person to suffer less than I, then it's all worth it -- including the criticism and condemnation that's been heaped upon me for years.

Finally -- forgive me, but I must say this -- I stand firm in my decision to leave the Organization 26 years ago. I also stand firmly by my independent Bible research in the original languages, and believe in my heart of hearts that the information that the Watchtower publishes condemning homosexuality is in error.

cAndId
October 17th, 2006, 10:59 PM
I feel so conflicted and confused... its terrifying to think that whatever choice I make could be the biggest mistake of my life... and I am generally an indecisive person.

I get Shakespeare's comment on to be true to who you are inside, but on the other hand the bible says that the heart is treacherous...

Do I listen to the flame (no pun intended, actual psychology term) inside me? Do I be true to myself? or do I become what the bible says God wants me to be? Do the JW's have the correct interpretation of what is required of me? or are they misinterpreting the bible?

I have read alot of the JW publications on homosexuality, some of it I know is incorrect and some I just do not know... for example, the publications say the same-sex love is wrong because 'love does not behave indecently'... who is to say that a loving relationship between 2 men or 2 women is indecent? How they defined indecent is not how I define indecent. They incessantly say that homosexuality was the cause of Sodom and Gommorah being destroyed and they use that scripture to say God condemned same-sex relationships... I have read that scripture many times and I do not see how loving same-sex relationships are condemned - lot offered his daughters to that crowd. I do not see the logic they are using. There was even a watchtower article that I looked up on the disk (written in 1995 I think) that says JW's should be slow to hate gay people... it didnt say they 'should not under any circumstances hate gay people' and Jesus reinforced through his teachings many times that love is the most important thing and hating other humans is unacceptable... granted I may have misinterpreted what they meant by 'slow to hate gay people'... but still thats how they made it sound in the article.

There is just so many holes that I see in thier teachings and publications... but I cant completely come to the conclusion that they are 100% wrong when it comes to loving same sex relationships. I do not see the logic in saying that love between 2 gay people is indecent and wrong... God is love and the bible says that thier is no law against love.


...despite all that I am still very confused and conflicted... scared and lost... I am going to take my time and I am going to think about this for a long while before I set my decision in stone. I just wish it were clear and easy :help:

antdak
October 18th, 2006, 12:00 PM
CAndId, unfortunatly there are no easy answers in life. And making the decision to stay in the Org or not is a very difficult one indeed. I truly hope you can do the right thing for you. Either way we are here for you to support you. My decision to start living a gay life was somewhat simple since my wife left me. So I thought since I have to start over, why continue to live with the lie, and be true to my self. I know the teachings, so I knew I could NOT live this life and be in the Org. I could contaminate the cong, and then be guitly of the congrgation loosing Jehovah's sprit. I could not do that!! I do wonder tho if it was the right choice, but I am happier! Your welcome to PM me or IM, or even send me an email, that goes for everyone here, my email is [email protected]

RationalLunacy
November 28th, 2006, 06:47 AM
Seems quiet on this site right now. I hope everyone is doing well.
Yeah....no kidding. Where did everybody go? :confused:

antdak
November 28th, 2006, 08:45 PM
I am still here! I meet a very nice guy some of you may have meet, John Sullivan, who lives in California. He recommended I read "Crisis of Conscience" by Raymond Franz, the former Governing Body member. I am only in the 3rd chapter, and allready I have my perception changed in the way I thought the GB did things, or contrroled or lack of control. What I think was the most eye opening, was that I thought the GB was under Jehovah's sprit and direction! But the impression I got was that they had a prayer before the meeting and thats that! If something is important that is going to affect the lives of every JW on earth, you'd think time would be given to reasearch and prafully concider what needs to take place. But it sounds like the meeting last just a few minutes. Thats the impression I got so far. I am liking the book very much, look forward to reading the rest of the book!

antdak
December 1st, 2006, 10:55 AM
Shane, this is a very well written post! I am glad you for you that you found the happiness you've looked for. It is a big change from what the Jw's teach, and the real world. I know I still have to rethink things, when people ask me, or i want to do something, I catch myself saying NO its against the religion! But then realize, I am no longer in the Orginization. Thanks for sharing your story!

antdak
December 2nd, 2006, 09:51 AM
That is so true! I was rasied as a JW so I just took every thing at their word! I was a 4th generation JW, so their is nothing else that the family knows! But now I know!!

RationalLunacy
December 5th, 2006, 08:18 PM
I never take the news things I learn for granted. The best experience for me has been being able to read the Bible without being tolled how to understand it - just reading it at face value. I've read things I never knew were in the Bible simply because I now have an open mind and allow Gods Holy Spirit to teach me, not some false organisation.
Just a suggestion: You should get a copy of Raymond Franz's book In Search of Christian Freedom. From what you've written above, I'm sure you would love it. Raymond Franz was a member of the Governing Body of the JWs and was a JW for 60 years. He was subsequently disfellowshipped and now believes as you do, and wrote this massive 800+ page volume about it. I'm just finishing reading it, and am amazed at how eloquently he presents his case without being bitter towards the JWs, but rather remains positive about the Bible's true message.

antdak
December 13th, 2006, 09:48 AM
BUMP- I am about half way thru Crisis of Conscience! It really shows that the Governing Body are just men, with no special direction from God! It seems most have big ego's, esp the President! Just my impression in reading what I have so far!

JayHew
December 16th, 2006, 02:57 AM
Holy cow. And I thought being brought up as a Roman Catholic was bad, I'll have to rethink that for sure. But perhaps not, each organized religion has its purpose of their rules and it is not for advancement of souls but as a means to maintain control.

I gave that up a long time ago. I hold no particular religious leanings, spiritural, yes aplenty, but not religious. I do not disparage those who wish to have religion and be in association with organizations that are religious, just don't ask me to agree or participate. I do not like religions.

It is now between myself and what I consider God. Never ever will I allow anyone or any organization in the religious realm to have any control over what is my soul or its salvation.

It is good to see this discussion though and there has been a lot of thoughts and emotions given. It is needed. I wish all who are still struggling the best success in finding your peace, but take the motto "To thine ownself be true" to the highest level you can while remembering religions have attributed a great deal of finite human emotions and attributes to "God" yet He is infinite, so how can He be so well defined? Find out within yourself, as all answers lay there instead of listening to the mudrakers.

RationalLunacy
December 22nd, 2006, 01:04 PM
Make sure you check out this thread (http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133249) about Jacob & Joshua Miller, the gay exJW twins of the pop group Nemesis Rising, being disfellowshipped.

RationalLunacy
January 3rd, 2007, 09:54 AM
JIn my humble opinion I don't think there's a hell of a big difference between the JW and the Roman Catholic church...:-)
Frankly, I think every faith teaches "We are the only true religion." They've all lost the concept of unconditional love. Once you place conditions on it, it's no longer the love taught by Jesus. Just my opinion, for whatever it's worth.

RationalLunacy
January 11th, 2007, 11:18 AM
Baptisim means one thing... Control.

We as JW's Used to get Baptized along with the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit.

That has Changed.

Father, Son and the Holy Spirit that is in Operation in the Christian Congregation Today..

The Biggest lie is that the Organization is the (Truth) Jesus said, "Know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free." The Truth is knowledge that one gets as he learns The Word of Jehovah. So You are Always in the TRUTH. When your DF'ed they say You Left the Truth. FALSE. Many that are DF'ed still Believe in Jehovah and Jesus and the Bible. But if you don't believe what the society says your an apostate. The Fact the Watchtower joined the United Nations, Had Allowed Blood Transfussions without disfellowshipping and the scandal of sex claims over 23,000 cases. I know when I was molested there was not a second Witness to back up my claim so the matter could not be fully established. Who takes the family with them when they prey on littl;e shildren? WHO?? Mit in MT
Mit,
You're 100% correct about that. Years ago, when you were baptized as a JW, you were baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Today, you are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and "the Spirit-controlled Organization of God on Earth" -- in other words, the Watchtower Organization. In other words, if they publish in their literature that the sky is brown, you have to believe that the sky is brown. You dare not secretly believe that the sky is really blue because, if found out, they will disfellowship you.

Have you been in touch with Silentlambs (http://www.silentlambs.org/) regarding your molestation? I hope so.

dexter87
January 13th, 2007, 03:19 AM
So I am very new to this site and subsequently this thread, however being a currently baptized JW (although inactive for nearly a year) I’ve found that I can’t stop reading through it. As a homosexual who only really has one foot out the closet door as respects his family, I identify strongly with the struggles that many have shared here. I too, like some am having an internal struggle over my faith and the road I should choose to embark on. I too am devastated by the mere thought of possibly loosing my family over who I was born, not who I decided to be.

Conversely though, I also see that there is among some a great deal of animosity towards the Organization (no I don’t agree with some that feel RationalLunacy has some conspiratorial grudge), and this is arguably rightly so. Like nearly every person of devout faith, Jehovah’s Witnesses as an overall collective body have the desire to have cohesion of thought and dogma, after all one could argue that that is the primary purpose of organized religion. In the pursuit of this it seems that many forgoe everything for a chance at their own little personal piece of righteousness. Countless families have been torn apart (mine to some extent included) in the pursuit of a “higher” cause. But to what end, to have a vain promise to an eternal life, some ray of eternal sunshine. What many in religions, and most poignantly JW’s don’t realize is that they give up the very pursuit of the righteousness they seek; they in essence cower and abandon their Christ and his teachings in exchange for the abandonment of free thought. After all, often the most righteous of persons are those that have the courage of conviction to stand for what their personal-principled ideologies tell them is just and right, Jesus of Nazareth is perhaps history’s (yes history’s not the Bible’s) best example of this.

However, in all of that I think it is important to focus on who we all are today. We are joined by a somewhat collective experience that has, or is in the process of making us stronger people, persons of higher character and value than those that can blindly dilute there free thought for the feeling of collectiveness. In all of the struggles that have been endured at the hand of “God” we are but a drop in the bucket, a small sampling of an endless parade of sycophantic ritual and prejudice. It is our ability to share our experiences, support those who are just now experiencing the persecutions of religion (which ever it may be) that makes us better people. And for those that still have an ounce of faith in God in them, know this; God is loving and merciful and if the teachings of Jesus and the essence of the Holy Scripture reflect anything it is that we will be judged not for our sexual orientation but for if we lived our lives justly and on a daily basis gave back to this world to the best of our ability. In other words, although the persecutions of a religion, a society, or a person may feel today like a scourge it should be kept in mind that this too shall pass, and the experiences we carry with us makes us better human beings, for we gain perhaps the greatest of human emotions empathy. And it is for the abundance of empathy shown in this thread that I would like to thank everyone that has posted, that has kept me up until 4 am reading the thoughts and experiences of others, and allowing me to realize that I am not alone; and most importantly that whatever path I should choose it is mine and should be chosen for me ,by me.

antdak
January 14th, 2007, 11:26 AM
Very well written post dexter! For one so young to have all this figured out in very encouraging. I can agree with what you wrote. Most of the reason I posted in this fourm is to help me come to terms with who I am, and if others are sturggling with the same issues, then it might help them also. For me right now, I have had to break clean of the JW's, I must admit that I do not have any spritual program in my life right now. Perhaps in time I might concider another church. I applaude those who have found a religion that meets the spritual needs. I guess right now I don't feel that need yet.

HighParkLover
January 14th, 2007, 11:49 AM
Wow.... I had no idea how strange the JW org really is. Yeah I found them kind of annoying with thier door to door campaigning but am very surprised at all the hogwash they send out.

I am one who believes in God but too many of the religions and beliefs are just so far fetched that I dont understand how people fall into thier traps. JW sounds more like a cult than a religion to me.

antdak
January 14th, 2007, 06:46 PM
HighParkLover, I grew up with the religion, so the JW's are the only religious org i have known. I can see how someone looking in, it can look really strange. For those falling into their traps, they are taught and told things that makes it sound reasonable. That the chruch that they are in are not telling them the truth about what the bible says. I think earlier in this thread was a post about how the JW's indoctranate people who are interested. Very interesting reading!

HighParkLover
January 15th, 2007, 12:51 AM
Antdak this topic has been a very interesting read indeed as well as being very educational. I hope this thread helps some of those that are involved with this cult, I know the are a religious orginization but to me from what I have read here and been told from a few who are ex JW's they will always fall under a Cult catergory.

Be true to yourself thats what matters most.

antdak
January 16th, 2007, 07:36 PM
Welcome Tim, to our little forum! RL did a great thing in starting this thread. I am glad he did. I am glad that you posted as well, Tim.
I have been to ACB, but just did not find the right. . .things I was looking for! The information was great, and it did help me alot in my comming to terms with my issues. I know a few have contacted me. I am greatful for any and all help I can get. Thank you, Tim for your post.

antdak
January 17th, 2007, 02:27 PM
I totally agree! I no longer consider my self a Witness. I guess that is a lot of the struggles I have had. It is a part of me, that I can never get rid of. So looking at it as part of my heritage, makes a whole lot of sense to me. Thanks for the new out look!
See you learn something new every day!!!

RationalLunacy
January 25th, 2007, 12:24 PM
I served as the second president of the original Common Bond from about 1993 - 1997. It was never my purpose to "bash" the Watchtower Society. For many of us - I was disfellowshipped after being outed by my best friend at the Hall - being forced out of the Watchtower was the most painful experience of our lives at the time. I went overnight from being extremely active in the congregation to losing everything.

During my time serving Common Bond I tried to use humor as well as common sense in helping people see that there was life outside the Organization. I certainly wasn't perfect - but considering where I was in my life at that time - I feel I did the best I knew how.

I have hundreds of letters from grateful members who appreciated there being a forum for them to openly discuss being gay - being a Jehovah's Witness - or express what happened when both worlds collided. When Common Bond was founded in the 1980's there was no internet. What was accomplished by "snail mail" in those days I think was incredible.

Thank God gay and lesbian Jehovah's Witnesses have a way to find others now on the internet to express their opinions and learn from others.

God Bless You All
Former President - A Common Bond
Tim
Hi Tim,
It's been many, many years since we corresponded. I'm glad you found your way to JUB. I'll bet that when you were running Common Bond, you never expected that we would one day be a formidable presence on the internet with thousands of contacts around the world, holding annual international conferences. This year's conference will be in Chicago in early September. It would be great to have you there!
Hugs....
JIM

RationalLunacy
January 25th, 2007, 12:27 PM
The website www.gaywitness.f9.co.uk (http://www.gaywitness.f9.co.uk) may be of interest to some readers of this thread.
Thank you for posting that link. It's a fascinating look into the world of gay & lesbian Jehovah's Witnesses who believe that their religion condemns them, yet they have decided to remain members in good standing by living a life of closeted celibacy.

RationalLunacy
February 13th, 2007, 10:52 AM
You might find the following video, Witnesses of Jehovah, to be of interest:


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6861723185926041712&q=witnesses+jehovah&hl=en (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6861723185926041712&q=witnesses+jehovah&hl=en)

I could have done without the "pitch for Jesus" at the end, but overall, it's well done.

RationalLunacy
March 2nd, 2007, 02:58 PM
Here's a link to the conference this September in Chicago for gay Witnesses & ex-Witnesses. Let's have a JUB contingent there!

http://www.gayxjw.org/confbanner07.jpg (http://www.gayxjw,org/acbconference/)

^^^ Click on the banner ^^^

antdak
March 9th, 2007, 11:04 AM
I just finished reading Raymond Franz book "Crisis of Conscience." WOW what an eye opener! I'd recommended every ex-JW read it. He gives some real insights into the inner workings of the Governing Body. Like they really do NOT have God's direct communication! I have started his other book "In Search of Christian Freedom" and it is even better!! Explaining how the central organization came to have such power over the people. So far off base from the Apostolic organization of the first century!
Just wanted to share!

RationalLunacy
March 10th, 2007, 09:05 AM
Antdak, when you're finished reading In Search of Christian Freedom, here's one you can read for free on line. It's a book that's been out of print for several years, but tells of the goings-on at Bethel from a woman's perspective. It's an amazing book called Visions of Glory by Barbara Grizzuti Harrison. Shortly before she passed away, she gave Randall Watters at Freeminds permission to post the book in its entirety on the web. Here is the link (http://www.exjws.net/vg.htm).

RationalLunacy
April 10th, 2007, 07:46 AM
But I just can't stand all this slander, get over it!
What slander? :confused: Please cite examples, and be specific.

I'm waiting. http://www.themommyplaybook.com/forum/images/mood/Impatient.gif

antdak
April 12th, 2007, 01:50 PM
I agree with RL, on this!! Where is the slander??? RationalLunacy, and I and many others have just related our accounts of our experiences with the JW's! If I have in any way made a sladerious remark, I'd like to know about it, so I can change my views! I do not hold anything against the Orginization! It is just not a religion I need in my life right now!! And like Siseman, said, I make no apologies for my comments in this thread!

RationalLunacy
May 2nd, 2007, 11:36 AM
I agree with RL, on this!! Where is the slander??? RationalLunacy, and I and many others have just related our accounts of our experiences with the JW's! If I have in any way made a sladerious remark, I'd like to know about it, so I can change my views! I do not hold anything against the Orginization! It is just not a religion I need in my life right now!! And like Siseman, said, I make no apologies for my comments in this thread!
Well, here it is, May. Almost a month has passed, and no reply to my challenge to point out where I've been slandering JWs. Silence, sometimes, can speak volumes, can't it?

antdak
May 8th, 2007, 05:36 PM
I love it!!! HIGH FIVE RL!!!!

RationalLunacy
May 17th, 2007, 11:15 AM
I thought some of you following this thread might find this short Silentlambs video of a Tennessee news broadcast about JWs and child abuse interesting:

RlRHaO0y4ro

RationalLunacy
May 20th, 2007, 08:55 AM
By the way, there is a pro-JW "documentary" airing on PBS on Tuesday night. It is, in actuality, a piece of propaganda financed by the JWs -- but produced by a gay man!!

Here is a little two-part essay I wrote about it:
http://www.gayxjw.org/knock.html

wildhog
May 21st, 2007, 10:22 AM
That works if there is not an elder among them. I was home sick with the flu one day when they, an older man and a fine looking young man, came by. I told them I was df'd and they left. A few minutes later, the older man came back, said he was an elder and asked if I wanted to talk to someone. I told him I was a gay witch and was not interested in coming back. He said he understood and hoped I changed my mind. Then he left. So, that works if there is not an elder among them.

BTW, in regards to baptism, I was never baptized. When I approached the elders about getting baptized, they informed me that the rumor in the congregation was that I was gay and therefore they could not allow me to get baptized. And then, when I came out and stopped attending, they came looking for me - after about 8 months! - and asked me to come down to the kh to talk with them. I did and they informed me that since the congregation considered me to be a brother, they had to df me. Funny how they worked the rules to be in their favor.

I used to be very angry over this. Now, I wonder what their punishment will be if what they teach is true.

Dude, you COULD NEVER be disfellowshipped if you were NEVER BAPTIZED EVER. It IS THAT SIMPLE so I don't believe your story for one bit.

wildhog
May 22nd, 2007, 11:02 AM
By the way, there is a pro-JW "documentary" airing on PBS on Tuesday night. It is, in actuality, a piece of propaganda financed by the JWs -- but produced by a gay man!!

Here is a little two-part essay I wrote about it:
http://www.gayxjw.org/knock.html

Just bumped into this thread yesterday. My question is What do you hope to accomplish in doing what you are doing in this thread?

RationalLunacy
May 23rd, 2007, 08:52 AM
Just bumped into this thread yesterday. My question is What do you hope to accomplish in doing what you are doing in this thread?
What am I doing? :confused:

TygreBryte
May 23rd, 2007, 01:27 PM
I have spent the morning reading this thread (as well as going of on tangents reading people's profiles and whatnot) and it's been fascinating. I would never have predicted that there would be so many people with active JW lives signed up on JUB, although when I was first coming out, I knew one guy who'd been raised a witness, and I was aware that all of the issues discussed in this thread were issues for him, personally.

I wasn't raised a Witness, but resolving a lot of the issues people have discussed certainly were part of my journey. I would sort those issues into roughly three groups: 1. Will "god" bring retribution down on me if I act on my gay feelings? 2. Would acting on my gay feelings or bringing them to light end or otherwise damage my relationship with my family? 3. Outside of my family, will the rest of the world hate my guts? Will I still be able to "do my work" and be gay? (OK, so that's four). For me these felt like life/death questions, and I spent hours, weeks, years worrying about them, and that worry took quite a toll. In my mid-40's, I continue to understand new ways in which all this worry etc. kept my socially retarded. But happilly, I think, the answers to the first three are "no," and to the 3 1/2 question, "yes."

At this point, I am not nearly as concerned with any variant of Christianity as I once was. To the extent I think about it, I end up at this position, which I think was expressed well by someone up the thread: No one or organization stands between me and God-as-I-understand-God in my relationship with that Individual. In my reading of the books, that's consistent with what Yeshua-ben-Yusseff taught (and to the extent that's not consistent with what he taught: Oh well.)

I do not worship books, or people. In fact, I don't worship Any Thing. There are plenty of folks and things that I do my best to get along well with. Occasionally I even bow. But no worship.

I don't believe in a "gay life style." I am gay; therefore, any way I live is a "gay life style." If I had made the choice to be celibate -- which I considered, and rejected when ultimately I could find no single reason that stood up to scrutiny as to what would be damaging *in general* to the greater good for me to have sex with consenting adult partners of my choice -- that would be a "gay lifestyle." Miserable, for me, and honestly I think needless, but it would be a gay lifestyle. Now, there might be plenty of reasons why having sex with some adult consenting partner might be damaging to the greater good, or my own well-being, *in particular* and in those particular instances it might very well be good for me to decide "no" (sometimes I have even managed to do this!). However, those decisions have little to do with some "gay lifestyle" somebody imagined as going on "out there" somewhere.

I don't have a lot of admiration for JW, just like I don't have a lot of admiration for a whole swath of Christian and non-Christian derived sects, because it appears to me that they use social pressure to control people's behavior in ways that are at best arbitrary and at worst damaging to the expression of God-as-I-Understand-God through each individual. There's all kinds of mean things folks can do to each other, and good-ole'-fashioned shunning seems to me to be towards the top of that list. Nothing more loving than casting someone out of a family or community, huh? ...at this point in my life, I have no use for any way of raising children that focuses on "in the name of 'love,' we will make you very, very afraid."

As I said, I was not raised a Witness, but I did one time go to a Witness funeral. The mother of one of my aunts, my uncle's wife, was a Witness. I know that this bothered my aunt a great deal, because she was of the more pentacostal Christian school. It was the darkest, saddest funeral I have ever been to.

Don't get a lot of witnesses at the door around here. For a while I had a sign up by my door that said "no soliciting," (sorry, don't like answering the door for random folks -- please call and schedule!) and that keeps most problems at bay. Not long ago, a couple young Mormon's knocked on my door, and asked would I consent to be involved in a survey about religious beliefs. "No," I said, holding on to the collar of my dog, "and you should have known that already if you just paid attention to that sign!" I emphasized with a polite finger.

"Actually," the lead young Mormon said, "your sign says 'no soliciting.' Technically, what we're doing is 'pamphleteering,' so if you don't want us to knock on your door, you should put that on the sign, too."

I smiled a grinchy smile, and thanked him and said I would take that under consideration. I think the narrowness of my eyes at the moment helped propel them on off my porch. Later I thought about calling the local LDS church and having a little chat with someone about how whether respect for the letter or respect for the intention made for the best public relations, but I managed to let the whole thing go before I spent that much more energy.

For all young -- and even not so young -- folks who have struggles regarding the relgious edicts of their upbringing vs. your feelings of love and desire for members of your same gender, best wishes. Remember that even when someone loves you, it does not mean that they know how to treat you right (and by this I am mostly thinking of the fact that family members and others who would warn you about the "abominations" of homosexuality might have your best interests at heart, but they could very well be quite ignorant, and may even be acting out of intersts that end up being quite selfish). My suggestion would be to pray as earnestly and directly to God as you understand God -- and if God's God, God is beyond understanding, right? -- and ask for a loving and loved life. That, and become as informed as you possibly can, as so many of the people who have commented in this thread have done for themselves. Remember to look and see just how many gay and lesbian men and women have fulfilling partnerships and live productive and rewarding lives. Check out all the heterosexual folks you know and count how many times people who live "like they are supposed to" have deep wounds, scars, and bruises. How do they wear those? ...I know just how heavy considering damnation and social rejection and opprobrium vs. the hope for romantic and physical intimacy can be. YOU NEVER GET ONE DAY YOUNGER.

RationalLunacy: Great thread, thanks. You just got a question about "what do you hope to accomplish?" I share your confusion about that question. I mean, why get up out of bed in the morning? Why go to work?

Sometimes, though, pointing the way is an important thing to do! ;)

:wave: :gogirl: :kiss:

tygrbryte

wildhog
May 23rd, 2007, 09:49 PM
What am I doing? :confused:

What I think you are doing is pointing out everything and anything you think is wrong with the JW's.
Of course, you and I know the JW's won't be able to respond to this thread...
It appears to me you are bitter dude about being disfellowshipped. Get over it. Peace out.

RationalLunacy
May 24th, 2007, 10:39 AM
What I think you are doing is pointing out everything and anything you think is wrong with the JW's.
Of course, you and I know the JW's won't be able to respond to this thread...
It appears to me you are bitter dude about being disfellowshipped. Get over it. Peace out.
You know, I wrote a piece on the A Common Bond website just for people like you who wag the finger of accusation ([-X) at people like me. Read it (hopefully with an open mind) and let me know what you think:
http://www.gayxjw.org/bash.html (http://www.gayxjw.org/bash.html)

RationalLunacy
May 24th, 2007, 10:50 AM
RL, sorry for stealing your thunder as most of the prowlers comments were aimed at you but I just had to respond. I'm a sucker for naive dribble *shrug*. I just wish more people like "the prowler" would grace us with there presence. It's entertaining at best..:-) The stage is all yours..:-)
Sisemen, I receive so much private correspondence like this, not to mention being attacked on various message boards, that I can only draw one of only two conclusions about these finger waggers:

(1) Anyone accusing me of being bitter because of my opposition to the JWs still believes that the JWs have "the truth"™ and condemn themselves for their own sexuality. I mean, they didn't come to a gay porn site to proselytize, did they?

~or~

(2) The Watchtower has a behind the scenes shill campaign in full swing. They've done it before, but now with the internet they can remain virtually anonymous in doing so. What they don't realize is that by posing as exJWs or nonJWs, they are in effect renouncing their religion while performing their part as a shill for their religious bosses.

wildhog
May 26th, 2007, 10:24 AM
You know, I wrote a piece on the A Common Bond website just for people like you who wag the finger of accusation ([-X) at people like me. Read it (hopefully with an open mind) and let me know what you think:
http://www.gayxjw.org/bash.html (http://www.gayxjw.org/bash.html)


It appears to me I touched a very sensitive and open wound there...
Thanks but I do not think I need to read it...whatever it is you wrote in it. I see you have changed your pic from being a stern black woman to a very angry wolf. How fitting. BTW, I have got a very open mind.
Peace on.

cAndId
May 26th, 2007, 10:46 AM
It appears to me I touched a very sensitive and open wound there...
Thanks but I do not think I need to read it...whatever it is you wrote in it. I see you have changed your pic from being a stern black woman to a very angry wolf. How fitting. BTW, I have got a very open mind.
Peace on.

...its a cat.

And no offence, but if you had an open mind, you would have read the page.

The last paragraph:

ACB understands that, despite strenuous efforts to show that ours is a network of support, not condemnation, there will always be the accusatory finger of judgement pointed in our direction. Our hope is that many you reading this page will gain a better understanding of what ACB does and why. We are not here to enrage the JWs by our presence, nor are we here to mock them. We try to maintain a positive focus on our local gatherings, conferences, and correspondence groups with the ultimate goal of helping gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender former members of the JWs move on with their lives in a positive and healthy manner.

RationalLunacy
July 11th, 2007, 09:36 PM
It appears to me I touched a very sensitive and open wound there...
Thanks but I do not think I need to read it...whatever it is you wrote in it. I see you have changed your pic from being a stern black woman to a very angry wolf. How fitting. BTW, I have got a very open mind.
Peace on.
Ummmm.....the "stern black woman" is Moms Mabley, one of my favorite comediennes.

Very angry wolf? Geez.....what do you have to say about Dr. Smith?

In the words of Mr. Shakespeare, "Methinks the lady doth protest too much."

RationalLunacy
August 3rd, 2007, 04:33 PM
Here's a link to the conference this September in Chicago for gay Witnesses & ex-Witnesses. Let's have a JUB contingent there!

http://www.gayxjw.org/confbanner07.jpg (http://www.gayxjw,org/acbconference/)

^^^ Click on the banner ^^^
The conference is less than a month away! If you want to meet me (and/or throw eggs and hurl rotten fruit at me), come to Chicago!
The conference website (http://www.gayxjw.org/acbconference/).

RationalLunacy
August 27th, 2007, 07:46 AM
Last chance to meet me in Chicago! The conference is this weekend.....

RationalLunacy
August 29th, 2007, 06:34 AM
Had I only lived closer this would have been an event I would not have missed. I wish you well and huge success for your upcoming conference. I hope lots of good comes from this as I'm sure there will.
I know a couple of other gay exJWs in South Africa. I can put you in touch with them if you like. PM me. Maybe you guys could start your own conference down there! :D

Shepherd 2
September 1st, 2007, 07:02 PM
On my thread about the sin of the Church, one person posted, their first post ever, that there is no such thing as the sin of the church. I read carrefully and lovingly this entire thread. I am totally distraught and disgusted. I wept for quite a time.

I was not sure at first what df'd meant. Then the whole word was unveiled, disfellowshipped. I could have retched up my supper on this one. I have now read the stories of being disfellowshipped. Other churches use words like excommunicate and shunned. All of it is the ties to family are cut and the people put out are considered dead to their families. I want to scream for an hour or two and I will never feel better.

In God's name and in the Church some of the most heinous crimes have been commited to God's own people. How can this not be sin? I know sin when I see it. It is time that the Church confessed its sins and made amendment to communal life. Reconciliation and restoration are the very will and demand of God uipon the peoples of Churches.
Shep+

RationalLunacy
September 12th, 2007, 09:32 PM
Well, the conference in Chicago was a huge success. This was the first year that we also experimented with a live video feed, and we had people tuning in from as far away as France and Australia. It was amazing! Click here (http://www.gayxjw.org/confrep07.html) for a full report on the conference, including links to the video feed -- including my 45 minute presentation.

subobj
September 17th, 2007, 12:35 AM
Wow, what a fascinating, enlightening, and disquieting discussion. I was once baptist and am still healing from the wounds. I can't imagine ex-JW's go through. My heart goes out to you all.

I had no idea it was such a controlling and homophobic religion -- I tend to think of the JW's around my neighborhood as kind of goofy at worst.

So I have one question . . .

When they come to my door, I usually give them a polite "no thank you." I don't want to be a jerk, but having read this thread, I'm not sure I can be so polite next time. How can I best communicate something like the following thought?

"I believe you've fallen into a destructive pattern of belief, reinforced by your family and community. I too once fell into a such destructiveness. However, I'm not merely concerned about you -- I'm also concerned about those vulnerable people (including your children) that you'll convert to your beliefs. For that reason, I am angry at you and find it difficult to forgive you. I know how badly I was wounded by unscrupulous but well-meaning religious fanatics, and I shudder to think how much more emotional and spiritual pain I would have suffered had I been wounded by you instead. At the same time, I realize that you, yourself, were once one of those vulnerable people. And I wish that I could speak to that real vulnerable person that you once were, instead of the representative of a doctrine of belief that I now find before me."

Kurn
September 17th, 2007, 02:29 AM
^Thanks for that lil script!

RationalLunacy
September 19th, 2007, 03:03 PM
Hi. This is my first post. I grew up one of Jehovah's Witnesses, baptized at the age of 11. Being very active in the congregation, I became inactive in 2000, and started coming out of the closet in 2001. I'm an open gay man, just turned 30. I've had my share of disappointments, as well as joys. I would like to make new friends with similar backgrounds. I live in the Finger Lakes Region in Central New York State, originally from East Texas.

-Jimmy
Hey Jimmy! Nice to hear from you. So you're the guy who's been fingering the lakes in New York. (Sorry -- couldn't resist.) :twisted:

If you ever get down to NYC, there's a big group of gay exJWs there that meet & socialize regularly. I know some of them, and they're great people. They even have a former District Overseer in the group!

RationalLunacy
September 19th, 2007, 03:06 PM
Wow, what a fascinating, enlightening, and disquieting discussion. I was once baptist and am still healing from the wounds. I can't imagine ex-JW's go through. My heart goes out to you all.

I had no idea it was such a controlling and homophobic religion -- I tend to think of the JW's around my neighborhood as kind of goofy at worst.

So I have one question . . .

When they come to my door, I usually give them a polite "no thank you." I don't want to be a jerk, but having read this thread, I'm not sure I can be so polite next time. How can I best communicate something like the following thought?

"I believe you've fallen into a destructive pattern of belief, reinforced by your family and community. I too once fell into a such destructiveness. However, I'm not merely concerned about you -- I'm also concerned about those vulnerable people (including your children) that you'll convert to your beliefs. For that reason, I am angry at you and find it difficult to forgive you. I know how badly I was wounded by unscrupulous but well-meaning religious fanatics, and I shudder to think how much more emotional and spiritual pain I would have suffered had I been wounded by you instead. At the same time, I realize that you, yourself, were once one of those vulnerable people. And I wish that I could speak to that real vulnerable person that you once were, instead of the representative of a doctrine of belief that I now find before me."
Most people have no idea how homophobic the JWs are. Imagine being taught that homosexuality is caused by (a) demon possession, or (b) masturbation (both JW teachings from years gone by).

Unfortunately, your average JW is so engrossed in their faith that any chance of getting through to them will be difficult at best, if not fall on deaf ears altogether. I'm not saying not to try, though. There have been success stories out there. You might just be the one to plant the seed. Go for it, I say!

temptations87
September 19th, 2007, 10:21 PM
Hello there.

I'm a 19 years old young man, and though I was never baptized as a JW, I spent 3 years studying intensively the Watchtower's doctrine (between 14 and 17 years old) and believed in every single bit of what was taught by the JW's. It all started when I was in a highly depressive state and got interested in what an uncle of mine, who is an elder, was preaching at a family reunion. One of my aunts was also a JW, but she was df'd after her first husband died and she started living with another man without being married. Anyway, I held on to those beliefs as firmly as I could, since I basically never found no other meaning in life beyond the "Truth". But in 2005 my inner dilemmas were too painful to bare anymore, so I stopped studying with them and started trying to accept the fact that I'm a homosexual man. Of course I lived under a huge fear for a long time. My relationship with God has been seriously damaged, and even though I still feel an enormous spiritual need, I still look at God with anger and resentment. I know that it ultimately was MY OWN fault to choose to believe in such a doctrine, and I wish no harm at all towards faithful and sincere JW's. I just wished they would know better and have enough basis to make an enlightened decision... I still talk to a family of JW's that once in a while brings the Watchtower and the Awake! magazines, and they keep treating me very nicely. But of course nobody knows I'm gay. I also wanted to know it better when I was younger and be able to be who I am totally guilt-free and with the ability to find God within me and, of course, to feel love. Right now I just feel too hurt to do so. I'm sorry. I also made some wrong choices after I drew away from the Watchtower. I found a catholic boyfriend and later on I became an active Catholic too. He basically abused me, blackmailed me and so on. My bad. My bad choices. I think I still need help. I feel lost. And instead of finding God within me, I only find hell. Better said, I am already in the Sheol (I'm totally dead, therefore. Or at least I wish and still attempt to). I think I will return to this thread later to share more details of my personal story. I want to repeat that I don't want to offend any JW. I just wished I could save me from myself.

temptations87
September 20th, 2007, 07:37 PM
Right now I'm sobbing as I read your words, because I feel really lost. I mean, I don't know if I'm really living right now, I just now I try to survive... Sometimes... If I think a little bit about anything deep enough, I just breakdown over and over again, so I live like a shadow, or sort of. Besides that cliché of not eating, not sleeping, crying enough, wanting and trying to die, etc., etc., I am not studying right now because of certain financial problems that increased in 2005 (the year I left the JW's) and that don't allow me to continue my University studies. Right now I'm unemployed too, so...

As for that gay support you mentioned, I don't think I have any... I didn't mention it before, but I live in the Azores archipelago, in Portugal, and in my island all I knew were married men willing to have some adventures with boys and three homosexual young people. These last ones have their own life, and one of them even stopped talking to me because he only wanted sex and I wasn't into it... So, the most homosexual people I talk to were met on the Net, and for a long time that only made me feel even more horrible, because they had a totally different lifestyle, and until a very recent past that disturbed me to the point of throwing up. So... Nowadays I'm a lot more tolerant, but anyway I wanted to have the support of someone who thought like me and was able to understand what I feel without saying "you're just too young to understand this, one day you'll be just like me".

Enough with the off-topic. I'm sorry for all these personal details. I just say I'm still too hurt with all this JW's AND Catholic experience... I wanted to find God, the Love force, the Universe, Mother Nature, whatever, something spiritual... Or am I just running away from myself again?... I don't know... I still feel that need... And I sometimes miss those times on both religious groups... I feel so empty. Next time I might talk more directly about the JW part (even though, I repeat, I was never baptized... But it was still a very intense experience...), because that is the subject of this thread, and I never was so dedicate, I never trusted so much in other religions as I was to the Watchtower doctrine. Being a Catholic was a much more balanced experience, but not as rooted inside... Though I miss attending Mass, etc. Oh, whatever... I've been reading and feeling attracted to so many beliefs... In the last months, I've been close to Spiritism, the Wicca, the Baha'i Faith, etc.... I think I'm getting crazy...

RationalLunacy
September 21st, 2007, 02:45 PM
I know how you feel. So many years ago, when I found myself at a similar crossroads, I felt lost and alone, too. I also lived on an island at the time (St. Thomas in the Virgin Islands), and thought I had nowhere to turn. I tried to get myself involved in various religions after leaving the JWs too, but found that most were good social outlets, but left me empty inside spiritually. The process of finding my spirituality took several years, but I did find it. I'm sure you will, too, but you have to keep talking about it. Please continue to post here, and also, I recommend you join our correspondence group for gay JWs and exJWs:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/acbgroup/
We have over 400 members from all over the world. Also, there is another group that speaks Portuguese, if you prefer to speak in your native language. It is smaller, and most of the members live in Brazil. I can give you the address for that group also if you want it.

The most important thing is that you keep talking with us. We are here to support you, because we have been at the same crossroads you are at now!

Many hugs....
Jim (RationalLunacy)

temptations87
September 23rd, 2007, 09:36 PM
Hello again...

I'm really in need for help... I know that Free2BMe already recommended me not to focus myself too much on the God issue, and I can understand there might be other priorities (although that is a rather strange idea for me... To put other things in front of God for the first time in ages, I mean... Who/whatever He/She/It is)... However, it is something that pains me inside, even in issues not related to the JW's. As you remember, I've been a practicing Catholic (a Catholic, period) for some time, and that means I am a catechist too... At least I was one until this Summer. Tuesday I will have a meeting with the parish board and I will need to decide whether I'm leaving the catechism classes or not. I almost definitely made the decision of leaving that ministery, but it is something I really love to do... I always worked with teenagers (somehow little kids frightened me), and I like to be with them, to help them with their problems (though they never really trusted me on it...), to speak with them about spiritual stuff, to awake them to something else that goes beyond our everyday lives, something that is more than meets the eye... But obviously I cannot keep doing that kind of service because I do not believe in the Catholic doctrine anymore...

But at the same time I miss the Church. Or I receive a new issue from The Watchtower or Awake! and I miss having something to give sense to my life, I almost envy all those people smilling, gathering together, I miss opening my Bible and reading some chapters a day (sometimes I'd read it for a whole day with true pleasure), I miss prayer, I miss spiritual literature, I miss Christianity as a whole... I still have it all available, but it hurts me so much that I wind up avoiding it... Nowadays I'm experiencing religion as my biggest temptation... Does it make sense? In the last days I've been spending hours and hours reading about Indigo people, about the Maya calendar, about meditation, etc., etc., etc. It might sound as a huge mess, but I feel that need of being in touch with that kind of subjects, and the fact is that they all have interesting things to learn. I even managed to be calm for some hours... Tonight was the Autumn equinox, so I spent some time doing research about many Neopagan lineages, including the Wicca, the Feri Tradition, the Asatru, the Gaia theory, and so on... I even went out for a walk at the end of the afternoon, through the evening, and I eventually started crying because I felt so lonely, suffocated and desperate...

And right now I only wanted to die.

I wanted to feel safe, I wanted to have some hope, I wanted to at least be hugged by someone... I feel like an orphan... I've always been one in the emotional sense, though my parents are still alive, and so I think I searched for God because He was that Father (believe me, this is a case where I really needed to look at Him through a masculine perspective) that I never had... But then again I felt I had to please Him in order to be loved, and now that I don't even now if I believe in His existence I don't know where to go... Ultimately, it seems He can be anything we want to, so where is the truth?... I know there is not only one answer. Nowadays I can deal with that a lot better than before... I just need to know where am I... Nothing makes sense. I feel nothing is even supposed to make sense. We are just here, one day we'll all day and that's it. Ok, I can deal with that too. I never looked forward to Heaven/Paradise on Earth/Resurrection in whatever form. That was not the reason for me to look for God, neither was any fear of Hell... All I desired was something that helped me get through the day... Here and now... A moment of peace, a way of seeing the world with divine eyes and give love to that same world... Sometimes I feel jealous of people who drink too much or get stoned. This sounds stupid, but sometimes I wanted to be numb and stop thinking at all... I feel I'm losing all my strength. I cannot take "this" anymore. I might remain alive, because I am too coward to finally put an end to it all, I'm afraid. I try to, nonetheless. But I'm but a shadow. Sometimes I hurt myself (yes, in the physical sense), but that does not work as before. What am I going to do????... Right now I'm listening to a christian online radio because I missed the music and the message people pass, but I'm crying too, because I wanted to come back to... Somewhere... But I feel I can't. And there is nothing else in my life. I still have my poetry, but obviously I can't write new stuff all the time, although I'd love to... At the end I just close my eyes and all that exists is that voice repeating "I hate myself... I should die"...

I might be repeating myself, and maybe this is not the right topic for this kind of informations, but... I need to talk to someone... There is absolutely no-one around. Today I found an ex-friend (a girl of my age to whom I confessed about my sexual orientation and that wound up acting stupid and going away from me after some months of close friendship... People even said we were dating!). Of course we didn't talk at all. Another supposed friend of mine that also knows about my homosexuality decided to write me telling about his wedding... Which already happened some days ago... And one of my gay friends (this one is from the mainland, of course) is suspecting I'm spreading around some of his secrets about all the lovers he had and all that crap, because his boyfriend found out and walked out on him... So you can guess how I feel.

Boy, what an off-topic...

TheObserver
September 24th, 2007, 08:03 AM
Would you want to be part of a GLBT Catholic faith community? A safe place where you can integrate your sexuality and spirituality?

DignityUSA (www.dignityusa.org) is a national organization of GLBT Roman Catholics. There might be a chapter in your area where you can attend weekly mass. The services are lead by either priests or trained laypeople.

LarsVenice
September 24th, 2007, 12:24 PM
As I understand it, they are also conscientious objectors and therefore refuse to serve in the military. This I agree with, as well as the refusal to say the pledge of allegiance to the flag. My grandmother was a JW, but she practiced her own form of it and distorted the teaching to fit what she felt was correct. I'm surprised she wasn't DF'ed because I know the group she belonged to was trying to get her to stop witnessing to people. She told me a lot of wild stories when I was a child, and my parents told me not to take anything she said seriously. She was also known as the town lunatic - but in a nice way - i.e., nutty but harmless. When she would talk about her childhood, it would begin with, "When I was a boy..." This made me think that boys could grow up to be women. I'm pretty sure she did not get this from JWs.

temptations87
September 24th, 2007, 07:35 PM
Would you want to be part of a GLBT Catholic faith community? A safe place where you can integrate your sexuality and spirituality?

DignityUSA (www.dignityusa.org) is a national organization of GLBT Roman Catholics. There might be a chapter in your area where you can attend weekly mass. The services are lead by either priests or trained laypeople.

I'd be very pleased to attend meetings at such chapters, but as I said I am Portuguese, and live here in the Azores. So, the Web is the only mean I have to look for help... Yet I thank you for the suggestion. I've been to that association's website, and for what I could read until now I already found some interesting informations.

However, I still feel divided. I mean, how can I be part of a religious organization that keeps blaming homosexuality for all sexual crimes that happened inside the Church? What to say about the document that denies priesthood to gay candidates? What to say about the sick secrecy that the Vatican mantained around child abuse by priests? My conscience is not in peace being in such a Church... It's the same with the JW's, as long as I could hear about similar crimes that happened and that keep being denied by the religious authorities... But... Still I feel attracted to something, I don't know... I miss the catechism classes. On the other side, I don't really believe in some of the doctrines concerning the Eucharist (transubstantion, more precisely... Did I spell it right?). Right now I cannot even decide if I believe Christ is God or only one of God's creatures, in spite of being the most perfect one... I don't know if I believe Jesus really resurrected. I don't know if I believe in him beyond his words of love. Right now, he could be just another prophet inside my head... Or maybe not. It still pains me talking about him and not about Him... Did you notice the difference that a cap can do in a word?...

What am I going to do?... So many months passed by and, of course, like everything in my life, I'm just more confused than ever. I wonder if I will ever make a right decision in my life. I'll most likely ignore all I've been thinking and all my doubts and continue to be in a Church that does not respect me and that, let' be honest, I don't know if I can respect either, just because I am in a void and that emptiness is just unbareable. I don't want to live hiding in order to live my faith (where is it now, by the way?...). I don't want to be a hypocrit. I don't want to lie more than I already do living inside of this closet. I don't want to (mis-)educate the teens I work with with more religious errors and continue spreading ignorance. But it is so hard... I can't count on anyone to help me clear up my mind, and surely as long as I'm alone with myself and my stupid reasonings I will continue to fall into deepest pits from which I doubt I will ever come out again...

All those doctrines that passed through my life in the past years are mixed up in my mind. Right now it all seems so random... All opinions, all beliefs, all constructions, all those bloody LIES are worth the same; therefore, none is worth anything at all...

Again there is that... That calling?... That does not leave me alone... I don't know what to do...

Help...

temptations87
September 24th, 2007, 07:36 PM
P. S.: If I'm focusing too much into subjects that you might consider that are not related to this thread anymore, please tell me...

temptations87
September 24th, 2007, 07:50 PM
P.P.S.: There is also that old question... If I spend so much time wondering about God and so on, am I a weak person?... To be religious is to be intolerant?... Is there a God?... Is it reasonable to believe in Something/Someone so unknowable? Isn't faith just an exaggerate dose of wishful thinking?... Is there really any need for God?... If He/She/It exists, does God need to even worry about us and what we do with our small little insignificant lives?... If God does worry about human beings, can we really hope all things, even the bad ones, are oriented to the well-being of God's children, like Paul stated?...

Just some thoughts... I'm in a mess... Sorry...
(I just wished someone was online now...)

BoxerBriefs72
September 27th, 2007, 11:21 AM
Don't bash me. lol Just looking for ideas or opinions.

I still consider myself to be a JW after being inactive for several years. I still believe in Jehovah and what's to come. I'm just having trouble dealing with the fact that I like guys and I might want more if the right guy came along. I'm still a virgin at old age due to religious reasons, but not sure if that's good enough for me anymore.

Rmonty206
September 27th, 2007, 03:55 PM
These last few posts have been really powerful. I feel the need to put my two cents in, just hoping that I may be able to relieve some of the suffering that is taking place over these internal struggles, because I've come through the worst of them even though there were times that I thought I would never know peace again.
First of all I have come to realize that you don't have to belong to a certain religion in order to have a relationship with God or for him to love you.(But it is nice to be around like minded people.) You are a spiritual person no matter where are. If you were on a deserted island he would be there for you just the same as if you were sitting in a church or religious building. You can call on him anytime, anyplace and he will hear you and knowing that you are not alone will give you more of the strength you need to cope. He loves his children who live even in the most remote parts of China or Africa and have never even seen a Bible or heard his name.
Second of all, one must remember that there have been millions of people on earth before we ever got here and you can be sure a good many of them were having these same exact struggles. There is nothing new under the sun as the Bible says. It only feels like it when it's happening to us. Don't think for a second that God doesn't know exactly what you are going through. He's seen it all before. He knows what each one of us can bear.
Third of all, I have come to realize that we can not expect to have nor can we be responsible for having all the answers all the time. It's not our job ! He will handle the universe and the universal issues. We are so small and childlike in comparison to him and his plans. Even the smartest among us are unable to grasp the whole picture of what we are living through at this time. We are like lucky little children who can trust that our mother and father will bring us something to eat and will keep us from danger. Most children don't realize it but a good parent is on duty 24/7. And if a human parent can do this, just think what God is capable of.
I believe that each of us has a need to be part of something larger than ourselves, something that we can focus our efforts on and will take us out of ourselves so that we can experience a sense of fulfillment or joy. Being part of a congregation for instance can satisfy both our spiritual needs and our need to belong to a group or to be part of something. When we loose this, we can feel vulnerable or lost for a time until we are able to find a situation that works better. This is to be expected and must be endured for a time. In the end you will have become a more self sufficient compassionate individual, better able to help others in their struggles an will truly appreciate small blessings as they happen.
As far as the sex thing. There are 8,760 hours in a year. If you had sex for an hour once a day you'd have spent only 365 hours engaged in an activity that seems to be at the root of most of the struggle discussed here. What's going on during the 8,395 hours left over? Why all the focus on this 365 ? Why does one have to base the theme of their life, their religion, their friends etc on this minute area their existence ? Fun is short lived but joy is deeper and more long lasting. We spend 2,920 hours sleeping and another 2,920 working usually and that leaves us 2,555 left over for whatever. What if one spent an hour a day reflecting on, looking for or talking to God and another hour doing or thinking of things to help others ? Would we be likely at the end of the year to have found a greater sense of peace and joy ? I think so.
I have found that happiness is not like a bus stop where you just sort of arrive arrive at it and that's that. It seems to come and go and one has to find a formula that works for oneself and adjust it pretty regularly. As far as sadness, depression and pain, these things are all human emotions and we cant expect not to experience these from time to time but our thoughts and feelings are only as real as we let them be. In other words, don't believe everything you think !
Everyone is searching for something so don't feel alone. It might be kind of boring to have all the answers right away. Sometimes the fun is in the getting there.
Keep talking, keep looking, keep reading but remember life is not an emergency, its OK to lighten up an take a wait and see attitude !

boy0boy
September 27th, 2007, 07:19 PM
Wow this was an interesting find. My parents were once JW a long time ago.. before the divorce and their disfellowhips. But I was VERY young so I remember NOTHING.

Just thought I'd say this is a cool topic, don't feel like putting all my emotions on this subject now, but I thank god everyday that I wasn't raised to believe some of the JW ideas.

RationalLunacy
October 8th, 2007, 07:46 AM
Wow this was an interesting find. My parents were once JW a long time ago.. before the divorce and their disfellowhips. But I was VERY young so I remember NOTHING.

Just thought I'd say this is a cool topic, don't feel like putting all my emotions on this subject now, but I thank god everyday that I wasn't raised to believe some of the JW ideas.
boy0boy -- you sure have the right screen name, because that's what I said when I read your post. If you've read this thread in its entirety, you can count your blessings that, as a gay person, you were not raised in the JW faith, because your life would have been much more complicated. Whenever you feel like posting more, we'll be here.
Hugs..... (*8*)

RationalLunacy
October 8th, 2007, 07:51 AM
I'd be very pleased to attend meetings at such chapters, but as I said I am Portuguese, and live here in the Azores. So, the Web is the only mean I have to look for help... Yet I thank you for the suggestion. I've been to that association's website, and for what I could read until now I already found some interesting informations.

However, I still feel divided. I mean, how can I be part of a religious organization that keeps blaming homosexuality for all sexual crimes that happened inside the Church? What to say about the document that denies priesthood to gay candidates? What to say about the sick secrecy that the Vatican mantained around child abuse by priests? My conscience is not in peace being in such a Church... It's the same with the JW's, as long as I could hear about similar crimes that happened and that keep being denied by the religious authorities... But... Still I feel attracted to something, I don't know... I miss the catechism classes. On the other side, I don't really believe in some of the doctrines concerning the Eucharist (transubstantion, more precisely... Did I spell it right?). Right now I cannot even decide if I believe Christ is God or only one of God's creatures, in spite of being the most perfect one... I don't know if I believe Jesus really resurrected. I don't know if I believe in him beyond his words of love. Right now, he could be just another prophet inside my head... Or maybe not. It still pains me talking about him and not about Him... Did you notice the difference that a cap can do in a word?...

What am I going to do?... So many months passed by and, of course, like everything in my life, I'm just more confused than ever. I wonder if I will ever make a right decision in my life. I'll most likely ignore all I've been thinking and all my doubts and continue to be in a Church that does not respect me and that, let' be honest, I don't know if I can respect either, just because I am in a void and that emptiness is just unbareable. I don't want to live hiding in order to live my faith (where is it now, by the way?...). I don't want to be a hypocrit. I don't want to lie more than I already do living inside of this closet. I don't want to (mis-)educate the teens I work with with more religious errors and continue spreading ignorance. But it is so hard... I can't count on anyone to help me clear up my mind, and surely as long as I'm alone with myself and my stupid reasonings I will continue to fall into deepest pits from which I doubt I will ever come out again...

All those doctrines that passed through my life in the past years are mixed up in my mind. Right now it all seems so random... All opinions, all beliefs, all constructions, all those bloody LIES are worth the same; therefore, none is worth anything at all...

Again there is that... That calling?... That does not leave me alone... I don't know what to do...

Help...
Have you considered contacting the gay church, the Metropolitan Community Church (http://www.ufmcc.com/)? I know they don't have a church in the Azores, but maybe they do have a local outreach and can put you in touch with other gay Christians there. Just a thought....

Also, here is the link for the Portuguese-language group of gay ex-Jehovah's Witnesses (http://br.groups.yahoo.com/group/xjw/). Maybe they can help, too.
Hugs..... (*8*)

RationalLunacy
October 8th, 2007, 07:55 AM
Don't bash me. lol Just looking for ideas or opinions.

I still consider myself to be a JW after being inactive for several years. I still believe in Jehovah and what's to come. I'm just having trouble dealing with the fact that I like guys and I might want more if the right guy came along. I'm still a virgin at old age due to religious reasons, but not sure if that's good enough for me anymore.
Everyone who identifies themselves as gay and is now, or has in the past had some involvement with Jehovah's Witnesses is at a different place. You have reached a crossroads that I was at 27 years ago. The best thing I can suggest for you to do is to dialogue with other gay JWs and exJWs for their viewpoints, as you have done here. Join our on line discussion group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/acbgroup/), and introduce yourself. You'd be amazed at the amount of support you'll get.

....and keep posting here, too!
Hugs..... (*8*)

Rmonty206
October 9th, 2007, 09:28 AM
Everyone who identifies themselves as gay and is now, or has in the past had some involvement with Jehovah's Witnesses is at a different place. You have reached a crossroads that I was at 27 years ago. The best thing I can suggest for you to do is to dialogue with other gay JWs and exJWs for their viewpoints, as you have done here. Join our on line discussion group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/acbgroup/), and introduce yourself. You'd be amazed at the amount of support you'll get.

....and keep posting here, too!
Hugs..... (*8*)

These groups sound like an interesting alternative but somehow because I heard about them on a porno site I cant imagine that I would be able to feel right about building my spirituality and relationship with God where the members of the organization who view these websites believe it's perfectly ok.(if in fact this is true of them)
Not that I'm any better myself at this moment but I'm trying to break free from this habit and the obsession with sex and the male body and get my fleshly desires in check....just my own view on the subject.

RationalLunacy
October 9th, 2007, 03:28 PM
These groups sound like an interesting alternative but somehow because I heard about them on a porno site I cant imagine that I would be able to feel right about building my spirituality and relationship with God where the members of the organization who view these websites believe it's perfectly ok.(if in fact this is true of them)
Not that I'm any better myself at this moment but I'm trying to break free from this habit and the obsession with sex and the male body and get my fleshly desires in check....just my own view on the subject.
For what it's worth, I rarely visit the porno portion of this site, but spend virtually all my time in the forums. I can speak only for myself, and don't know what other people's habits are. Having said that, I personally respect individuals who are up front and honest about their sexual proclivities, as opposed to those who hide deeply in their closets and sit in judgment of others who have the courage to openly do what they themselves do in secret. This isn't to say that looking at porn is "right" or "wrong". The JWs would have us believe that our "fleshly desires" are evil and something to be loathed. I have to disagree, but that is only my opinion. In the end, I believe that God sees into the heart, and the amount of porn we do or do not look at is not going to have any effect on our ability to establish a relationship with our Creator. Just my two cents.

boy0boy
October 10th, 2007, 05:47 AM
Well I feel like I could go on for a long time on my ideas of this whole topic and it makes me feel overwhelmed about posting.

I guess I should break it up into parts.

My first being a story that happened just the other day. So I grew up in a small town, so the congregation is tight knit and see each other and know everyones business. (I have a feeling it isn't much different in big cities though) So my parents were disfellowshipped as a result of my mother leaving my father for another guy. Well she was first, then during the divorce and seperation he had a fling of some sort with a lady from the congregation while he was still "technically" married so he was DF soon too.

Anyways see I could go on forever.

This story though happened at the grocery store, me and my mom had grabbed some stuff and were heading to the line to checkout. (Oh yea she is still DF and remarried to my stepfather of 9 years, who was never a witness) So she says "oh did you want some sodas" and heads away from the lines. This struck me as odd, and I asked her why she changed her mind suddenly. It was after we left the store she told me in the line was "someone from her past." Which is her way of saying a JW.

She didn't feel comfortable because she had on her "Army Of One" shirt. (My brother is in the army, currently in Iraq) And she had capris on which clearly displayed her tattoo on her calf.

Now to most this would seem meaningless and to me it somewhat did, but to ANY JW you understand her embarassment and shame I guess.

The point of this whole story was just my shock and experience with the aftermaths of being associated with JW's.

Plenty more stories that seem meaningless but scare me. My heart goes out to anyone who was truly influenced by their ideals, or still is.

RationalLunacy
November 7th, 2007, 02:54 PM
There's an interesting thread about the JWs going on over in Hot Topics. Click here (http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=187222).

RationalLunacy
December 12th, 2007, 12:48 PM
P.S. BTW, I remember reading somewhere in this thread where there was one member who was an ex-JW and who was still somewhat defensive and sensitive about other people criticizing Jehovah's Witnesses. Well, I would suggest to that person to either lurk at or to join the Jehovah's Witnesses Debate forum(from the first link above...that is, if you can :roll:) and really get into the details about the criticsm of JWs so that the hold that they still on you can be broken.
Excellent suggestion! Some would rather hurl insults at one another and refuse to give thought to another possible point of view, but hopefully they will eventually see that there are other views worth considering and can debate them rationally.

That really sucks about your being spied upon. Glad you're here. Keep posting! :wave:

bripatrick
December 12th, 2007, 02:57 PM
This is really interesting to me...thank you to all who have shared about Jehovah's Witnesses and what they stand for (most notably RationalLunacy).

It's all very strange to me, as an outsider looking in at religions. I've never been a part of a religion in my life, have never read the Bible or any other religious doctrine, etc. I've never been one to pass judgement on people for their believes, except for in circumstances where their beliefs are mean-spirited, exclusionary, and surrounded in hatred or intolerance of any group. It just seems strange that anyone would rationally want to be associated with a group/organization/religion that promotes such ideas, that instructs its members to completely cut out family members or friends who are kicked out, etc.

It's especially interesting to see gay JWs who post on here who defend the group, even though they are people who would be disfellowshipped if they were completely honest with their lives. Again, I don't have personal insight into any religion, but it seems odd that one would be so defensive of a group that openly condemns you for who you are.

uncuttboi
December 12th, 2007, 03:01 PM
im a JW and gay


dont know what to do.......

RationalLunacy
December 12th, 2007, 04:10 PM
im a JW and gay


dont know what to do.......
My first suggestion is to visit the A Common Bond (http://www.gayxjw.org/) website. A lot of information there for you.

Then, I'd start interacting with other gay & lesbian JWs and former JWs. We all know where you are at and what you're going through. Join our correspondence group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/acbgroup/). It will really, really help you -- a lot! Oh, and keep posting here -- there's a bunch of us here on JUB.

RationalLunacy
December 12th, 2007, 04:18 PM
This is really interesting to me...thank you to all who have shared about Jehovah's Witnesses and what they stand for (most notably RationalLunacy).

It's all very strange to me, as an outsider looking in at religions. I've never been a part of a religion in my life, have never read the Bible or any other religious doctrine, etc. I've never been one to pass judgement on people for their believes, except for in circumstances where their beliefs are mean-spirited, exclusionary, and surrounded in hatred or intolerance of any group. It just seems strange that anyone would rationally want to be associated with a group/organization/religion that promotes such ideas, that instructs its members to completely cut out family members or friends who are kicked out, etc.

It's especially interesting to see gay JWs who post on here who defend the group, even though they are people who would be disfellowshipped if they were completely honest with their lives. Again, I don't have personal insight into any religion, but it seems odd that one would be so defensive of a group that openly condemns you for who you are.
We are an odd lot, aren't we? You know, sometimes I think that is exactly what makes the JWs so attractive to so many people. Disgruntled with mainstream Christianity, the JWs appeal is likely because the Watchtower's teachings are just about dimetrically opposed to Catholocism and most Protestantism. As cruel as their edicts are on disfellowshipping, shunning, blood transfusions, condemnation of gays and lesbians, etc., the manner in which they teach their doctrine (by repeatedly pounding it into the heads of the membership 5 times per week, and requiring them to repeat it to others in their door-to-door preaching work) is in actuality a form of mind control technique. This, in my book, qualifies the JWs as a cult, although there are those who would argue that point with me.

bripatrick
December 12th, 2007, 04:40 PM
And see, that's the only explanation that logically makes sense to me about most religions. I'm DEFINITELY not implying that people who are in organized religion are cult members or brainwashed, but again, from the outside looking in it comes across as that sometime.

I'll never forget when I was at a distant family member's funeral when I was about 7 or 8, and everyone in the church was praying in unison. Even at that age, I felt uncomfortable with it. I didn't know the terminology or anything, but I remember feeling like everyone was warped. I believe it was the "lord is my shepard there is nothing I shall want" passage, or something. The words didn't make sense to me at all...I just felt really uneasy. I think that's what ultimately made me realize that religion wasn't for me. I know that seems super young, but yeah, I'm pretty sure that was the moment. I never went to church for actual services, only for funerals and weddings after that. My parents believe in God, but don't attend church, and they respect my opinion. So yeah, coming from a completely different world here!

isuckmen
December 21st, 2007, 11:31 AM
I am 18 now... Have a bf... And was baptised at 15...

I came out to my family last week...

I am expecting a herd of elders to come bangin on the door to disfellowship me any minute now... Because I knaw that they know about me cuz my dad made my lil sis tell them why I "moved"out.

I believe a good portion of the doctrine, but am not going to hinder my personal development further for the enjoyment of some tyrant on a podium. I love Jehovah dearly however I believe either the bible is mistranslated or Jesus' apostles were off their rockers!

seven_sins
December 21st, 2007, 06:54 PM
#190 - Great story.

RationalLunacy
March 13th, 2008, 02:41 PM
And one more thing that I wanted to say is that regardless of how we human beings on this planet view our sexuality from a moral or religious standpoint, I believe that being controlled by a religion or by other people who do not know how to help a person with their sexual issues or circumstance, can cause far more "damage" to that person than if that person had never came in contact with those people or with that particular religion.
I've often said it in the Hot Topics forum: The Bible clearly states that we are created in God's image. Therefore, if God views gays as an abomination, in that he created us, that makes God an abomination himself by default. The JWs (and other ultraconservative churches) do not take this into account.

ELAINE
March 29th, 2008, 06:53 PM
I have a friend who struggles so much with being gay and also trying to live up to his upbringing as a Jehovah's witness. It's so sad that anyone should have to go through that. God should accept everyone as they are as long as you are not hurting anyone and your heart is in the right place.

Inwood
March 29th, 2008, 06:56 PM
I've often said it in the Hot Topics forum: The Bible clearly states that we are created in God's image. Therefore, if God views gays as an abomination, in that he created us, that makes God an abomination himself by default. The JWs (and other ultraconservative churches) do not take this into account.
Agreed, however, their argument is that we made a choice to be gay, and are being misguided and deluded by The Dark One. It's a circuitous argument that can go on forever, unfortunately.

cAndId
March 30th, 2008, 08:29 AM
The more I grow up, the more I realize how lucky I was to be born gay. If I had not been gay I dont know if I would have been able to find that nagging doubt that led me to give way to logic and reason.

I dont blame the people in the religion at all, but I am thankful that I didnt need a blood transfusion as a kid. There is so much thought control, I found myself continue to try and rationalize my harmful beliefs. Even at 16 or 17 I would have died for my beliefs, kids that age are simply not old enough to make a decision like that.

RationalLunacy
May 1st, 2008, 04:43 PM
A lot of us exJWs are doing Youtube videos to apologize for going door to door preaching as JWs. Here's mine:

ogfrSWUKZCo

cAndId
May 1st, 2008, 05:19 PM
Thanks for posting up that vid!

EvilForce
May 7th, 2008, 04:55 PM
The more I grow up, the more I realize how lucky I was to be born gay. If I had not been gay I dont know if I would have been able to find that nagging doubt that led me to give way to logic and reason.

I dont blame the people in the religion at all, but I am thankful that I didnt need a blood transfusion as a kid. There is so much thought control, I found myself continue to try and rationalize my harmful beliefs. Even at 16 or 17 I would have died for my beliefs, kids that age are simply not old enough to make a decision like that.

I too was a Jo Ho. My being gay I now view as a gift. Had I not been so miserable during my teen years being a Jo Ho & gay, I quite likely wouldn't have gone off to college to escape the cult and "find" myself.

My relatives still are in "the Truth™". But I still talk and see most of them these days. While my family pretends the "gay" issue doesn't exist, they do treat my spouse with a great deal of compassion (at least for JWs).

cAndId
May 7th, 2008, 06:17 PM
That sounds encouraging! I guess that would be the best it can get.

AsianDream
June 9th, 2008, 11:34 PM
I know no one has posted anything on here in a month but lets see if i get a reply...

I'm currently attending the meetings, i was approved to get baptised but got very drunk a few weeks before i was meant to get dunked. I feel some what pressured to get baptised at the upcoming assembly. Like some others on here, i did NOT choose to be gay, if i could change anything it would be that. I dont know why iam, but iam and there is nothing I can do about that... I just pray the new system comes before its too late for me. because i know i cant resist for the rest of my life.

I do believe everything the organisation teaches, its not brain wash, those of you that think or say that are full of crap! I dont plan on joining any groups either, the one thing worse than being gay is being an apostate!

I guess the point of me posting this is... im just really confused, what the hell am i meant to do?!?!?!!? I just want 2 be freaking normal!:mad:

I can't help doubting the wisdom of fervent faith and wanting to join a club that doesn't want to have you.

I'm always puzzled as to how any one faith (in this case Jehovah's Witnesses) can claim to be any more true than all the others - do they think the rest of humanity is mistaken?

At least being Gay is something you really do know "deep inside" - any religion is just something other people have told you.

RationalLunacy
June 11th, 2008, 08:11 AM
I know no one has posted anything on here in a month but lets see if i get a reply...

I'm currently attending the meetings, i was approved to get baptised but got very drunk a few weeks before i was meant to get dunked. I feel some what pressured to get baptised at the upcoming assembly. Like some others on here, i did NOT choose to be gay, if i could change anything it would be that. I dont know why iam, but iam and there is nothing I can do about that... I just pray the new system comes before its too late for me. because i know i cant resist for the rest of my life.

I do believe everything the organisation teaches, its not brain wash, those of you that think or say that are full of crap! I dont plan on joining any groups either, the one thing worse than being gay is being an apostate!

I guess the point of me posting this is... im just really confused, what the hell am i meant to do?!?!?!!? I just want 2 be freaking normal!:mad:
Crimson, I'm not going to bash you. There's an old saying: "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything." Unfortunately, you seem to be at a crossroads and need to take a stand on two conflicting areas of your life. Without making that stand, you're going to continue to live without any resolution, waiting for something that may or may not come in your lifetime. I was a JW when they taught that Armageddon was coming in 1975 (http://www.cftf.com/comments/1975.html). (Please click on the link to see scans of Watchtower literature teaching this.) I was taught that my sexuality would be "cured" after Armageddon, too. Frankly, I'm glad I didn't wait. I've been in a very happy, loving relationship with another man for over ten years now, and my life is good. You're going to have to decide whether you want to take a stand for the Organization, or if you want to take a stand for your sexuality. You can't have both. Keep posting here and let us know about your decision. I'm sure I speak for many others when I say "We care."

EvilForce
June 11th, 2008, 03:59 PM
I know no one has posted anything on here in a month but lets see if i get a reply...

I'm currently attending the meetings, i was approved to get baptised but got very drunk a few weeks before i was meant to get dunked. I feel some what pressured to get baptised at the upcoming assembly. Like some others on here, i did NOT choose to be gay, if i could change anything it would be that. I dont know why iam, but iam and there is nothing I can do about that... I just pray the new system comes before its too late for me. because i know i cant resist for the rest of my life.

I do believe everything the organisation teaches, its not brain wash, those of you that think or say that are full of crap! I dont plan on joining any groups either, the one thing worse than being gay is being an apostate!

I guess the point of me posting this is... im just really confused, what the hell am i meant to do?!?!?!!? I just want 2 be freaking normal!:mad:

Honestly, do NOT get baptized. Once you are dunked, they can DF you and you will/can lose EVERYTHING. Your "friends", but more importantly, your family.

I prayed to "Jehovah" nightly, crying for him to "fix" me and my gayness. I got baptized at 16, and didn't jerk off or have sex with anyone for almost 2 years. Every night I begged via prayer to be fixed. Guess what? He never fixed me.

You think it's "The Truth" because frankly you don't know any better. You haven't explored any real teaching of anything. You've supped whatever they've fed you and believed it to be true. I once thought as you did. In fact elders told me back in the 1980s that I would never make it thru college before Armeggedon came. Um....guess what? That was 20 years ago.

The Witnesses are nothing more than a high control cult. So beg off on getting dunked until fall. Spend the next few months, actually reading the bible. Read the bible from cover to cover, with no Watchtower publications. Period. You read it and see what your thoughts are. 99% of the JWs I've ever met, have never sat down and read the bible, cover to cover like a book. Instead, they have to hop around from section to section to prove a point.

EvilForce
June 11th, 2008, 04:03 PM
I'm always puzzled as to how any one faith (in this case Jehovah's Witnesses) can claim to be any more true than all the others - do they think the rest of humanity is mistaken?



Yes they believe that. Everyone else is wrong, they are right, and everyone not a JW will die in Armeggedon.

EvilForce
June 11th, 2008, 04:08 PM
And Crimson...you are not alone. There are thousands of ExJWs who are gay.

http://www.gayxjw.org/resources.html

There are many stories list there. I personally know a couple of them too. Do yourself a favor and see how others felt, as you are feeling right now.

RationalLunacy
June 21st, 2008, 08:29 AM
Have any of you gay exJWs out there listened to the podcasts yet? They're great!

LINK (http://www.acbnyc.com/podcast.html)

AsianDream
June 22nd, 2008, 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by AsianDream I'm always puzzled as to how any one faith (in this case Jehovah's Witnesses) can claim to be any more true than all the others - do they think the rest of humanity is mistaken?

Yes they believe that. Everyone else is wrong, they are right, and everyone not a JW will die in Armeggedon.

You have more knowledge about the JW faith than I do.

Maybe it's the same question I'd ask of many religions - but what makes them think they're right and everyone else is wrong?

How do they manage to fit theses ideas into a rational framework. This is not JW bashing - I'd ask the same question of any absolute belief system.

One thing I'd like to ask any Gay ex Jehovah's Witness is if they would still have stayed with the religion if it didn't have an anti-gay bias and teachings?

In other words - do they think the rest of what JW teaches is right - just that they're not right about homosexuality?

EvilForce
June 24th, 2008, 04:39 AM
You have more knowledge about the JW faith than I do.

Maybe it's the same question I'd ask of many religions - but what makes them think they're right and everyone else is wrong?

How do they manage to fit theses ideas into a rational framework. This is not JW bashing - I'd ask the same question of any absolute belief system.

One thing I'd like to ask any Gay ex Jehovah's Witness is if they would still have stayed with the religion if it didn't have an anti-gay bias and teachings?

In other words - do they think the rest of what JW teaches is right - just that they're not right about homosexuality?

For me, the "gay issue" only fostered the split at an earlier age than I would have otherwise I believe. But I know better now. I know far more about the bible, translations, and where many of the original albethemcrazy teachings of JWs started from and why. Frankly, when you stop using pre-conditioned reflexive thoughts on the bible, if you read it, and even more importantly read about the history of the world at that time, it becomes far more evident.

When you can read the old testament as a group of stories, to explain difficult concepts to uneducated and unenlightened people, like the story of creation, it's easy to see what the bible is good for, and what it is complete rubbish for.

It's why the JW church actively does everything it can to convince young people not to go to college. Once you learn critical reasoning skills, the b.s. of high control cults washes away pretty quickly.

AsianDream
June 24th, 2008, 10:03 PM
For me, the "gay issue" only fostered the split at an earlier age than I would have otherwise I believe. But I know better now. I know far more about the bible, translations, and where many of the original albethemcrazy teachings of JWs started from and why. Frankly, when you stop using pre-conditioned reflexive thoughts on the bible, if you read it, and even more importantly read about the history of the world at that time, it becomes far more evident.

When you can read the old testament as a group of stories, to explain difficult concepts to uneducated and unenlightened people, like the story of creation, it's easy to see what the bible is good for, and what it is complete rubbish for.

It's why the JW church actively does everything it can to convince young people not to go to college. Once you learn critical reasoning skills, the b.s. of high control cults washes away pretty quickly.

Do you think advancing on to higher education makes people more likely to renounce a faith like JW?

I personally think people need an emotional motivation to escape fixed ideas (like being Gay and belonging to a religion that hates/disapproves of Gays).

For most people - greater knowledge and skills are used to argue more effectively and articulately for the ideas they already hold - rather than to critically examine these ideas.

But maybe some faiths have a lower "Escape velocity" than others - so very authoritarian proscriptive religions are more likely to suddenly melt in the light of reason than other more moderate ideas?

RationalLunacy
July 30th, 2008, 10:50 PM
Do you think advancing on to higher education makes people more likely to renounce a faith like JW?
Absolutely! Higher education encourages free thought. The JW faith flatly demands conformity in all aspects of life. Higher education is considered "worldly," and a waste of time when one could be spending all their time preaching from door to door. The only exception to this are a small select few who are sent to university by the Watchtower to earn law degrees and, once degreed, join the Watchtower's massive legal department.


I personally think people need an emotional motivation to escape fixed ideas (like being Gay and belonging to a religion that hates/disapproves of Gays).
I totally agree. I think this is the reason why so many gay people exit the JWs. Being gay allows them to think outside the box.


For most people - greater knowledge and skills are used to argue more effectively and articulately for the ideas they already hold - rather than to critically examine these ideas.
This is how JWs are trained. They are fed Watchtower-based information, and then specifically trained on how to respond to objections by non-believers. They are required to attend a Theocratic Ministry School on a weekly basis. They are condemned for critically examining anything the Watchtower feeds them. Any such thoughts are considered to be "apostate."


But maybe some faiths have a lower "Escape velocity" than others - so very authoritarian proscriptive religions are more likely to suddenly melt in the light of reason than other more moderate ideas?
One of the things the Watchtower banks on is the insidious thought they plant in the minds of members who are exiting the faith: "Where will you go if you leave Jehovah?" -- intimating that they are the only true faith. This causes former members to think "What if they're right? What if I'm wrong?" The return rate for disfellowshipped JWs is mind-boggling because of this implanted thought. Fortunately, many of us have learned to think for ourselves and, upon further research, discovered that our decision to leave was indeed the correct one.

AsianDream
July 31st, 2008, 09:30 PM
So a little over a month has now passed since my original post..

Not too much has changed, im NOT getting baptised anytime soon, as every day passes it gets another day closer to me being ME. I will leave one day and i know that, i want to love and i will love. as for asians post earlier, the only reason i would ever leave the JW's is because of the gay issue, other wise they are a great people and i do believe what they teach.

I think i need to move away in a few years and have a fresh start, then no one gets hurt and i dont have to be ashamed in front of my family and friends...

I think you know inside that you will probably leave the JW faith one day.

One issue with any enclosed community in which someone has been raised is that to abandon their ideas is to also become an outcast from your family, friends and almost everyone else you've ever known.

It's a step few people willingly take - as you rightly say - your only way out is to abandon everyone and everything you've ever known.

I can imagine if you do leave - that first night on your own in some run-down motel somewhere - totally alone with no friends or family.

I don't think any God gave it to us - but our sexuality is what enables us to experience love. There is some guy out there that you could love and who will love you more than life itself.

Making love is one truly transendential experience that is available to most of us - Don't grow old and die without ever having experienced it.

EvilForce2
August 4th, 2008, 09:39 PM
OMG, yes it's me EvilForce, but I had to reregister. This asshat Simon Green, of Calgary Canada, and owns and runs a site for exJWs, is one of the biggest America hating, gay hating asshats I've ever seen.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/22/163543/1.ashx

Light his ass up my brothers.

RationalLunacy
August 13th, 2008, 08:31 PM
Disfellowshipped homosexual "brother" in England seeks similar males in the U.K. Can anyone help?
If you haven't already, please join the online discussion group for gay & lesbian JWs & exJWs:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/acbgroup

There are several hundred members from all over the world, including a number from the UK.

RationalLunacy
August 13th, 2008, 08:35 PM
OMG, yes it's me EvilForce, but I had to reregister. This asshat Simon Green, of Calgary Canada, and owns and runs a site for exJWs, is one of the biggest America hating, gay hating asshats I've ever seen.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/22/163543/1.ashx

Light his ass up my brothers.
I quit posting on Simon's board several years ago due to the constant homophobic climate that was allowed to reign free there. It's amazing how many exJWs retain the JW belief that homosexuality is a "sin" and refuse to listen to reason on the subject. This is likely due to their own sexual repression when they were JWs. People who are uncomfortable with their own sexuality tends to lash out at the sexuality of others. Sadly, I think this is magnified tenfold in the JW and exJW community due to the extraordinarily prudish stance on sex that they drill into the heads of the membership.

AsianDream
August 14th, 2008, 02:08 AM
I quit posting on Simon's board several years ago due to the constant homophobic climate that was allowed to reign free there. It's amazing how many exJWs retain the JW belief that homosexuality is a "sin" and refuse to listen to reason on the subject. This is likely due to their own sexual repression when they were JWs. People who are uncomfortable with their own sexuality tends to lash out at the sexuality of others. Sadly, I think this is magnified tenfold in the JW and exJW community due to the extraordinarily prudish stance on sex that they drill into the heads of the membership.

I know this is probably an unwelcome comment from an outsider.

But I do think the JW faith is an especially poisonous one for gay people. I guess it is something you need to break free from altogether – not spend time on ex-JW web sites that still promote the homophobic ideas of this religion

turtle
August 14th, 2008, 05:56 AM
I'm always puzzled as to how any one faith (in this case Jehovah's Witnesses) can claim to be any more true than all the others - do they think the rest of humanity is mistaken?



Why not? You do.

RationalLunacy
August 14th, 2008, 07:31 AM
I know this is probably an unwelcome comment from an outsider.

But I do think the JW faith is an especially poisonous one for gay people. I guess it is something you need to break free from altogether – not spend time on ex-JW web sites that still promote the homophobic ideas of this religion
While I agree that there is no need for gay exJWs to spend an inordinate amount of time on exJW sites that are predominantly heterosexual (and homophobic), there are a couple of points I'd like to bring up:

(1) Not all exJW sites are homophobic. The vast majority I've encountered are quite gay friendly. In fact, it was a gay-friendly heterosexual exJW in Norway who helped ACB (http://www.gayxjw.org/) get it's internet presence started more than ten years ago. The forum mentioned above (commonly referred to as "JWD" or "Simon's") has had a reputation for flame wars, not just among gay people, for some years. If you do not fit into a certain clique, you are either flamed, or ignored. It's sad, but there are people out there like that. JWs tend to be even more judgmental than others due to the reasons I stated in an earlier post above.

(2) While I agree that gay JWs should (and this is just my opinion) make a clean break from the religion, that is not always possible, nor is it always wise. In some cases, it will alienate the individual from their family, and many are not ready to give up the familial connection. In other cases, while the individual can themselves move beyond the JW religion and doctrine, it is important, IMHO, for some individuals to stay "near" the religion in case others who want to leave (due to their sexual orientation, etc.) will have people they can reach out to.

It's not a simple "get over it" equation.

AsianDream
September 1st, 2008, 01:39 AM
Originally Posted by AsianDream
I know this is probably an unwelcome comment from an outsider.

But I do think the JW faith is an especially poisonous one for gay people. I guess it is something you need to break free from altogether – not spend time on ex-JW web sites that still promote the homophobic ideas of this religion

While I agree that there is no need for gay exJWs to spend an inordinate amount of time on exJW sites that are predominantly heterosexual (and homophobic), there are a couple of points I'd like to bring up:

(1) Not all exJW sites are homophobic. The vast majority I've encountered are quite gay friendly. In fact, it was a gay-friendly heterosexual exJW in Norway who helped ACB (http://www.gayxjw.org/) get it's internet presence started more than ten years ago. The forum mentioned above (commonly referred to as "JWD" or "Simon's") has had a reputation for flame wars, not just among gay people, for some years. If you do not fit into a certain clique, you are either flamed, or ignored. It's sad, but there are people out there like that. JWs tend to be even more judgmental than others due to the reasons I stated in an earlier post above.

(2) While I agree that gay JWs should (and this is just my opinion) make a clean break from the religion, that is not always possible, nor is it always wise. In some cases, it will alienate the individual from their family, and many are not ready to give up the familial connection. In other cases, while the individual can themselves move beyond the JW religion and doctrine, it is important, IMHO, for some individuals to stay "near" the religion in case others who want to leave (due to their sexual orientation, etc.) will have people they can reach out to.

It's not a simple "get over it" equation.

I don't think this is a simple "get over it" equation - but there is a clear advice to Gay ex Jehovah's Witnesses to keep well clear of web sites that still promote the homophobic ideas of this religion.

While there are many other "ex Jehovah's Witnesses" web sites that can help people recover from the toxic effects of this particular religion.

EvilForce2
September 2nd, 2008, 01:53 PM
You have more knowledge about the JW faith than I do.

Maybe it's the same question I'd ask of many religions - but what makes them think they're right and everyone else is wrong?

How do they manage to fit theses ideas into a rational framework. This is not JW bashing - I'd ask the same question of any absolute belief system.

One thing I'd like to ask any Gay ex Jehovah's Witness is if they would still have stayed with the religion if it didn't have an anti-gay bias and teachings?

In other words - do they think the rest of what JW teaches is right - just that they're not right about homosexuality?

Here's a typical sermon by a JW at one of their "assemblies" or conventions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwA9KX5WJTM

AsianDream
September 3rd, 2008, 11:37 PM
Here's a typical sermon by a JW at one of their "assemblies" or conventions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwA9KX5WJTM

I did view this clip.

To be frank – I’m not sure this is actually a genuine recording of what Ciro Aulicino said – and is maybe an attempt to portray the whole JW movement as complete lunatics – it’s hard to think any rational human being would subscribe to these sort of crazy ideas?

If this is what these folks seriously believe – then maybe not even God can help them.

I don’t think any JW person really welcomes Armageddon as the divine execution of the wicked?

I certainly hope this video/sound clip is a fake – or that in the worst case - the speaker just represents a small fanatical fringe element of the religion – rather than mainstream JW views.

I’ve seen several similar fundamentalist Islamic videos – which I’ve also found profoundly disturbing – raising – for me - the whole question of whether people are fundamentally rational and decent – or are capable (as these imply) of willingly embracing evil ideas in the name of religion.

cAndId
September 4th, 2008, 07:32 AM
I have not heard a talk as graphic as that, I was shocked to hear him talk about all the dead bodies being strewn across the surface of the earth after 'Jehovah's Day'.

I have, however, heard talks about how Armageddon will cause the deaths of billions of human beings alive today. They say it will be their responsibility to clean up the Earth (clean up after God's mess?) and restore paradise. A convention I went to a couple years ago had them mention that Armageddon is so close that 'the shadow of Jesus' sword can be seen'.


I don’t think any JW person really welcomes Armageddon as the divine execution of the wicked?

They do indeed. I remember being told when I was a little kid something like one day people would be falling all around me, and it would be easier to deal with it if I didnt attach to worldly friends.

JW's constantly discourage children associating with 'worldly' (as in not JW) kids.

RationalLunacy
September 4th, 2008, 12:08 PM
I have not heard a talk as graphic as that, I was shocked to hear him talk about all the dead bodies being strewn across the surface of the earth after 'Jehovah's Day'.

I have, however, heard talks about how Armageddon will cause the deaths of billions of human beings alive today. They say it will be their responsibility to clean up the Earth (clean up after God's mess?) and restore paradise.
I used to hear the graphic talk of carcasses all the time, but that was in 1974-75, when the JWs were so sure Armageddon was coming in the fall of 1975 they actually put it in print. They used to talk about the birds pecking out the eyes of the dead. Pretty gross stuff.

Of course, this is not the first time the JWs predicted Armageddon's arrival. They have predicted (in print) the world's destruction in 1914, 1915, 1918, 1935, and 1975.

Ironically, Joseph Rutherford, the second president of the Watchtower Society, gave a talk on September 8, 1922 in Cedar Point, Ohio entitled "Millions Now Living Will Never Die." Everyone who heard that talk are now all dead. :(

EvilForce2
September 5th, 2008, 04:53 AM
I did view this clip.

To be frank – I’m not sure this is actually a genuine recording of what Ciro Aulicino said – and is maybe an attempt to portray the whole JW movement as complete lunatics – it’s hard to think any rational human being would subscribe to these sort of crazy ideas?

If this is what these folks seriously believe – then maybe not even God can help them.

I don’t think any JW person really welcomes Armageddon as the divine execution of the wicked?

I certainly hope this video/sound clip is a fake – or that in the worst case - the speaker just represents a small fanatical fringe element of the religion – rather than mainstream JW views.

I’ve seen several similar fundamentalist Islamic videos – which I’ve also found profoundly disturbing – raising – for me - the whole question of whether people are fundamentally rational and decent – or are capable (as these imply) of willingly embracing evil ideas in the name of religion.

Oh I assure you that's a typical sermon about end times. In the '80s it was even more prevalent. And JWs absolutely DO relish Armageddon's arrival, it's what they have been waiting for since 1905. I spent the first 20 years of my life in that cult and I still have family in it.

RationalLunacy
September 5th, 2008, 11:01 AM
God still loves me no matter what I do or chose to do, and no matter who or what I am, and My Church tells me so. I am and always will be Catholic, and, Yes, I am Gay. Am I defellowshiped? NO. Am I allowed to participate in all of the sacraments? YES AND NO, all but one, Holy Communion, sad to say, but not enough for me to be mad at the church, or to leave it. I may attend another gay friendly church maybe once a month with a few Gay friends, but I still love the church of my Baptism and Confirmation. I say to all of you in JUB; God loves all of us Unconditionally just as our parents should do. My own father still loves me unconditionally, and he knows that I am Gay.
I'm glad non-JWs are participating in this thread, because it shows how extreme the JW faith is in comparison to others. 1big14me says that he can remain Catholic and love his faith, even though there are certain aspects of it that he cannot participate in because of his sexual orientation. This cannot happen in the JW faith. With the JWs, it's all or nothing. Either you're an active, faithful JW, or you're condemned to die at Armageddon. Period. I know of no gay person who is an active JW who is not either forced to live a life of celibacy (or engage in heterosexual sex with a marriage mate), or lives a double life, hoping the elders in his congregation never find out. The JWs are black and white. Either you are or you aren't. There is no grey area for JWs.

AsianDream
September 8th, 2008, 05:02 AM
Oh I assure you that's a typical sermon about end times. In the '80s it was even more prevalent. And JWs absolutely DO relish Armageddon's arrival, it's what they have been waiting for since 1905. I spent the first 20 years of my life in that cult and I still have family in it.

I still hope that's not really what they believe - but it certainly does seem to fit the profile of a "Cult" rather than a rational "Faith".

Anyway - I hope you manage to help your family escape it as well.

It still seems incredible that there are a group of normal seeming people that actually relish Armageddon's arrival.

RationalLunacy
September 10th, 2008, 10:13 AM
I still hope that's not really what they believe - but it certainly does seem to fit the profile of a "Cult" rather than a rational "Faith".

Anyway - I hope you manage to help your family escape it as well.

It still seems incredible that there are a group of normal seeming people that actually relish Armageddon's arrival.
I can tell you it's true because I also relished the coming of Armageddon. The JWs taught me quite well to become judgmental and intolerant of others' beliefs. If you ask your average JW, they will adamantly insist to you that they have the only true religion, and that belief in anything outside the scope of JW doctrine will destine you to destruction on the day of the Great Tribulation. :(

isuckmen
September 20th, 2008, 05:18 PM
Ironically, Joseph Rutherford, the second president of the Watchtower Society, gave a talk on September 8, 1922 in Cedar Point, Ohio entitled "Millions Now Living Will Never Die." Everyone who heard that talk are now all dead. :(



Now when that talk is reffered to it is named, "Millions now living MAY never die." Because they dont want to admit that they were that certain.

isuckmen
September 20th, 2008, 05:24 PM
I dont know why i did this...

But I quit going to meetings last november...

But I still went to this years memorial lol... For some unrational, illogical reason, I still felt like I "ought" to go, I wasnt dressed up, and Taylor came with (I dont think anyone noticed 'us' directly lol)

And I went to a different congregation than my old one cuz I didnt want to see my family... but still got recognized by their friends, and got a few looks from them.

But still, i cant figure out what made me go... i just dont get it

RationalLunacy
September 20th, 2008, 06:23 PM
But still, i cant figure out what made me go... i just dont get it
Several possible reasons come to mind:


You miss the fellowship with others.
Respect (or a desire for respect) for your family.
The comfort of familiarity.
ClosureThe last time I went to the Memorial, it was the first time I'd set foot in a Kingdom Hall in 20 years. I went out of curiosity, to see how the message had changed. I was shocked to see that they no longer mentioned the year 1914 in the talk, for one thing. No one knew me, but it was also great closure for me. As a disfellowshipped person, I walked in with my head held high and a bright smile on my face. They teach that the disfellowshipped are filled with shame and lead miserable lives. I proved them wrong that night. :D

isuckmen
September 20th, 2008, 08:18 PM
I gotcha... that actually makes sense...

I've never missed one since i've been alive, so this would have made my 18th... So I s'pose its the familiarity of it

and they mentioned 1914 in this last one i went to

RationalLunacy
September 22nd, 2008, 10:10 AM
and they mentioned 1914 in this last one i went to
Funny how they're clinging on to that 1914 date, but I'll bet they don't mention it as often as they used to when I went. It was in like every other sentence. They made a really big deal out of it then.

AsianDream
September 23rd, 2008, 12:24 AM
I can tell you it's true because I also relished the coming of Armageddon. The JWs taught me quite well to become judgmental and intolerant of others' beliefs. If you ask your average JW, they will adamantly insist to you that they have the only true religion, and that belief in anything outside the scope of JW doctrine will destine you to destruction on the day of the Great Tribulation. :(

I find it hard to understand a group of people that actually welcome Armageddon – in much the same way as I can’t really comprehend the motives of Islamic suicide bombers.

The really scary thing with both ideas is that they can be held by people that seem in other ways to be entirely rational.

I guess that all of us sometimes glimpse the dark abyss of insanity – but things like the JW faith and Islamic fundamentalism are an example of how whole groups of people can fall into this.

RationalLunacy
September 23rd, 2008, 09:17 AM
I find it hard to understand a group of people that actually welcome Armageddon – in much the same way as I can’t really comprehend the motives of Islamic suicide bombers.

The really scary thing with both ideas is that they can be held by people that seem in other ways to be entirely rational.

I guess that all of us sometimes glimpse the dark abyss of insanity – but things like the JW faith and Islamic fundamentalism are an example of how whole groups of people can fall into this.
Not unlike the fundamental Islamics, the JWs also despise all other religions and believe they are the spawn of Satan. Here is an illustration from a JW publication showing a small snippet of the aftermath of Armageddon. Note the burning church (JW Kingdom Halls do not have steeples) and the look of joy on the faces of the JW survivors.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/9941/Life-HowDidItGetHere1985.jpg

954dude
September 23rd, 2008, 08:32 PM
I often wonder if I told the Jehovah's Witnesses that continue to visit the neighborhood that I'm bisexual...what would happen? :D

RationalLunacy
September 23rd, 2008, 10:37 PM
I often wonder if I told the Jehovah's Witnesses that continue to visit the neighborhood that I'm bisexual...what would happen? :D
They'd probably quote the stock Bible scriptures they use to condemn same-sex relationships, tell you that you can change, and offer to start a Bible study with you.

Or, you could answer the door naked. ;)

AsianDream
September 24th, 2008, 01:23 AM
Not unlike the fundamental Islamics, the JWs also despise all other religions and believe they are the spawn of Satan. Here is an illustration from a JW publication showing a small snippet of the aftermath of Armageddon. Note the burning church (JW Kingdom Halls do not have steeples) and the look of joy on the faces of the JW survivors.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/9941/Life-HowDidItGetHere1985.jpg

The concept of Armageddon is maybe one where religions were ahead of their times.

It’s only in the last 50 years or so that mankind has had the technology to wipe out all life on earth (the production of large numbers of H bombs in the 1950’s). Also we’ve just found out that there are natural events every 100 million years or so that have much the same result (the latest in a long line being the “Dinosaur killer” meteorite 65 million years ago).

The idea that these sort of disasters will spare a few of “Gods chosen people” does seem however to be very far fetched.

I still find it hard to understand how people manage to believe so fervently in ideas that have no facts to support them. There just doesn’t seem to be any sense in it – but maybe I’m missing something – or maybe these delusions are something that people get infected (indoctrinated) with when they are children – and most never manage to recover.

RationalLunacy
September 24th, 2008, 01:36 PM
I still find it hard to understand how people manage to believe so fervently in ideas that have no facts to support them. There just doesn’t seem to be any sense in it – but maybe I’m missing something – or maybe these delusions are something that people get infected (indoctrinated) with when they are children – and most never manage to recover.
I was a teenager when I was proselytized into the JWs -- hardly a child. I've known many people who have joined the JWs as adults. I do agree that these people, for the most part, are predisposed to proselytization. They are or the most part already religious, or have recently had something catastrophic occur in their life, or are lazy and want someone to tell them how to conduct their lives. Those who are willing to think and reason for themselves eventually find their way out.

The delusion that God will wipe out all but the "righteous" at Armageddon fills the need to feel "holier than thou." Let's face it, the Bible clearly says "You are all sinners," so this does nothing for one's self esteem. Apocalyptic religions like the JWs feed this lack of self esteem by offering the illusion that just because they adopt a particular belief system, this somehow makes them better than the rest of us, and the only ones privileged to be in God's presence. And the wheels go round and round.

AsianDream
September 28th, 2008, 11:37 PM
I was a teenager when I was proselytized into the JWs -- hardly a child. I've known many people who have joined the JWs as adults. I do agree that these people, for the most part, are predisposed to proselytization. They are or the most part already religious, or have recently had something catastrophic occur in their life, or are lazy and want someone to tell them how to conduct their lives. Those who are willing to think and reason for themselves eventually find their way out.

The delusion that God will wipe out all but the "righteous" at Armageddon fills the need to feel "holier than thou." Let's face it, the Bible clearly says "You are all sinners," so this does nothing for one's self esteem. Apocalyptic religions like the JWs feed this lack of self esteem by offering the illusion that just because they adopt a particular belief system, this somehow makes them better than the rest of us, and the only ones privileged to be in God's presence. And the wheels go round and round.

This seems that most forms of religion are just child abuse – so most children aren’t able to resist the ideas of trusted adults however much these have no logical evidence to support them

Simon1978
October 4th, 2008, 02:14 PM
never ever believe in a way to become an ex-gay. there is no way.

HQH6mrOvSGI

AsianDream
October 5th, 2008, 09:00 PM
dude....all I have to say is listen to what they are talking about. Jehovah or your family would NEVER tell you something that would hurt you.

It seems that Jehovah thru peoples families and community values - tell Gay people that are raised as Jehovah's Witnesses things that do end up hurting them a lot

AsianDream
October 5th, 2008, 09:07 PM
never ever believe in a way to become an ex-gay. there is no way.

I think what you say is probably self evidently true to any Gay ex Jehovah's Witnesses.

It is true that people can change some aspects of their character - but changing your essential sexual orientation isn't one of them

RationalLunacy
October 16th, 2008, 08:15 PM
I think what you say is probably self evidently true to any Gay ex Jehovah's Witnesses.

It is true that people can change some aspects of their character - but changing your essential sexual orientation isn't one of them
Agreed. That isn't what the JWs teach their members, though. Here is a link (http://www.watchtower.org/e/200702b/article_01.htm) to the Watchtower's official website and what they say about homosexuality. :(

RationalLunacy
January 13th, 2009, 07:34 AM
I hope the Danish movie "Worlds Apart (http://www.variety.com/index.asp?layout=festivals&jump=review&id=2478&reviewid=VE1117936066&cs=1)" comes to the U.S. soon, at least in DVD form.

RationalLunacy
March 25th, 2009, 10:15 AM
Here's a link to the conference this September in Chicago for gay Witnesses & ex-Witnesses. Let's have a JUB contingent there!
Ummmm.....this year's conference is in San Francisco, not Chicago.

Why were you banned and why is the link missing? Were you spamming? [-X

conrad
March 28th, 2009, 01:19 PM
Here's one fellow who does not shun the Jehovah's Witnesses. When they appear I take it as my duty to offer them my counter witness. We end, of course, with a standoff even though they always send two to deal with the dedicated Christian who just may know the Bible better than they know it.

But, let me salute RATIONAL LUNACY who reminds me that eternal vigilance is still the price of liberty. Just don't let the bastards get you down.

RationalLunacy
March 30th, 2009, 05:55 AM
Here's one fellow who does not shun the Jehovah's Witnesses. When they appear I take it as my duty to offer them my counter witness. We end, of course, with a standoff even though they always send two to deal with the dedicated Christian who just may know the Bible better than they know it.

But, let me salute RATIONAL LUNACY who reminds me that eternal vigilance is still the price of liberty. Just don't let the bastards get you down.
Illegitimi non carborundum indeed! :D

RationalLunacy
March 30th, 2009, 05:56 AM
For any gay JWs or exJWs reading this, we have our own discussion forum now:
http://www.gayxjw.org/modules/newbbex/
Today is opening day!

AsianDream
April 1st, 2009, 12:10 AM
For any gay JWs or exJWs reading this, we have our own discussion forum now:
http://www.gayxjw.org/modules/newbbex/
Today is opening day!

I guess I'm a militant Athiest - but I respect the Christian idea that "God is Love" - but don't see any way this is compatible with the Jehovah's Witnesses idea that "God is Hate". If you guys can recover from this poison - I wish you luck - also you don't need to discard a belief in God to swap the idea of an "angry vengefull" God for one that really loves you.

RationalLunacy
July 15th, 2009, 09:48 PM
also you don't need to discard a belief in God to swap the idea of an "angry vengefull" God for one that really loves you.
In other words, if your God isn't allowing you to live a happy life, fire him and get another one. ;)

payit4ward
July 15th, 2009, 10:02 PM
Guys I am 25 years old and grew up as one of Jehovah wittenss. I was a full time pioneer for almost 5 years. I was on Circuit Assembly parts, Convitions, you name it I had a part in it. I was the model JW. I told my family that I was gay, and that I was living with my b/f for the pas year. (yes I was inactive for the whole time). I have lost my family and understand why I have. I knew that going in. I still belive EVERYTHING. It is truly the only thing that makes since to me. Yes I have looked into other stuff. But no matter what people say, JW are GOOD people. They really try to live up to the bible laws. And yes I can NOT be one if I am gay. But I still try to live as close to them as I can. Jehovah does not tell you anything that can hurt you. They are a great org. And I do belive that being gay is a choice. And I have made that choice.(to each there own) But I am just here to say that I miss Jehovahs org. and I hope that one day I can go back and be one of Jehovahs people before its to late. So all im asking is that there is NO reason to bash Jehovahs Witnesses. Jehovah laws they are put there to protect us, not to hurt us.
I do not know anything about the jehovah witness religion but one thing know for certain is that being gay is not a choice you were that way and anyone that tells you otherwise is delusional.

RationalLunacy
February 28th, 2010, 06:19 AM
Bumpity bump....

poolerboy
February 28th, 2010, 04:43 PM
I do not know anything about the jehovah witness religion
Here's a few fun facts:


They don't believe Jesus died on a cross, but rather on a torture stick. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses_view_of_Jesus'_death)

They don't believe in the Trinity. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism#Irrationality)

They reject the transfusion of blood. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses_and_blood_transfusions)

poolerboy
February 28th, 2010, 10:46 PM
"Jesus died on a pole for your sins" — just doesn't have the same ring to it, although a stripper pole might be the key to converting more gays.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Justus_Lipsius_Crux_Simplex_1629.jpg/160px-Justus_Lipsius_Crux_Simplex_1629.jpg

http://feederleague.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/the_more_you_know2.jpg

AsianDream
March 3rd, 2010, 12:03 AM
In other words, if your God isn't allowing you to live a happy life, fire him and get another one. ;)

YES - I'm not against people thinking there's a God - just it seems very pointless if you chose a God that isn't allowing you to live a happy life.

As there's no evidence for any God - if you really want to believe in one - why not chose one that does the least damage?

I think this is especially relevant to Gay ex Jehovah's Witnesses. They have been caught up in what some people view as a rather nasty homophobic religious cult - however there are less bad forms (in some peoples opinion) of a very similar religion they could chose instead.

Clearly - as an Athiest - I view all religions as bad - not beacuse they make people do bad things (though many do) - but based on the simple fact that there is no proof at all that any of them are true,

poolerboy
March 3rd, 2010, 11:00 PM
YES - I'm not against people thinking there's a God - just it seems very pointless if you chose a God that isn't allowing you to live a happy life.

As there's no evidence for any God - if you really want to believe in one - why not chose one that does the least damage?
That might be a palatable belief--oh how lovely to believe in something which soothes your soul!--but it seems disingenuous and more like the person is deliberately lying to his or herself. See, instead of saying, "Okay, if there is a God out there I want to discover what this higher being is like," we get, "Okay, if there is a God I'm going to construct what I feel this God should be like and have the image of this God conform to whatever makes me happy regardless of whether it's the truth or not."


Clearly - as an Athiest - I view all religions as bad - not beacuse they make people do bad things (though many do) - but based on the simple fact that there is no proof at all that any of them are true,
I think it's much worse than that. It enshirnes this idea of seeing dogma as a virtue--dogma which leads otherwise well-intentioned people to behave and think in wicked and odious ways.

AsianDream
March 4th, 2010, 12:55 AM
I think it's much worse than that. It enshirnes this idea of seeing dogma as a virtue--dogma which leads otherwise well-intentioned people to behave and think in wicked and odious ways.

This comes back to the old saying:

Bad people will do evil things - because they enjoy it. To get Good people to do Evil things - you need religion


This isn't just a phillosophical debate - it is a reality that is ever present in the world today.

The poulation of Iran are not all "Wicked People" - but their government (in their name) has executed 4,000 plus people for being Gay over the last 10 years, Just as the people of Uganda are not all "Devils" - but most of them (including their church leaders) support killing people (the death penalty) who are gay

cyravance
April 23rd, 2010, 08:31 PM
I studied with the Witnesses many years ago, and am happy to say that I helped a friend break free of that group...I always did my "homework", and the Bible study didn't go as they had planned. They even sent 'elders' to my home to correct my thinking, but would not answer my questions except with Watchtower double-talk.
I still collect their literature, especially the Russell and Rutherford era stuff. I find it a fascinating religion to study from a strictly historical point of view, much like the Mormons, who I also 'studied' with.
These people can be unbelievably cruel to those who don't 'drink the koolaid', and for people whose whole families are involved, it can be very difficult to break free.
I actually spoke with Fred Franz (former member of the governing body) many years ago by phone, what a sad story his is! And what a sweet man he was...

cyravance
May 10th, 2010, 01:31 PM
I have to correct that, RAYMOND Franz...I always think of Fred when I think of the Governing Body.

AsianDream
May 24th, 2010, 11:41 PM
I studied with the Witnesses many years ago, and am happy to say that I helped a friend break free of that group...I always did my "homework", and the Bible study didn't go as they had planned. They even sent 'elders' to my home to correct my thinking, but would not answer my questions except with Watchtower double-talk.
I still collect their literature, especially the Russell and Rutherford era stuff. I find it a fascinating religion to study from a strictly historical point of view, much like the Mormons, who I also 'studied' with.
These people can be unbelievably cruel to those who don't 'drink the koolaid', and for people whose whole families are involved, it can be very difficult to break free.
I actually spoke with Fred Franz (former member of the governing body) many years ago by phone, what a sad story his is! And what a sweet man he was...

I’m quite fascinated at how otherwise “Good” people end up following ideas like the Jehovah's Witnesses.

In the same way as I can’t understand how most nice ordinary Germans supported Hitler in exterminating Jewish people.

What fatal flaw is there in human nature that makes us follow evil causes?

While religion seems to be an obvious “bad thing” – the major crimes against Humanity in the last century (Mao, Stalin and Hitler) were based on secular rather than religious Faith

Maybe "Faith" is the ultimate evil?

cyravance
May 25th, 2010, 11:21 AM
Having faith is hard work at times, and the Winesses make it seem easy. They administer their "truth" in carefully metered, prechewed doses. All you have to do is open and swallow.

AsianDream
May 26th, 2010, 03:12 AM
Having faith is hard work at times, and the Winesses make it seem easy. They administer their "truth" in carefully metered, prechewed doses. All you have to do is open and swallow.

I'd have to say that this seems much the same to me as swallowing Bovine bowel movements - though with probably far worse long term conseqences

FuryOfFirestorm
February 6th, 2012, 06:07 PM
Better yet next time just tell them you're "disfellowshiped" and watch them trip over themselves to get away from you. They will then note on their territory card and you won't have to deal with them again. It's also funnier than hell watching them run away for talking to someone that is disfellowshiped, they won't be able to get away from you fast enough, and will not return.
:didisay:

If you want some LOL's, answer the door covered in fake blood and tell them that you were in the middle of an animal sacrifice. Or better yet, ask them if they are the people you hired on Craigslist for the bisexual orgy.