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  1. #51
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by gsdx View Post
    I've been reading some of the comments in news reports from the White Supremacists praising Trump for not holding them responsible of for not naming the action 'domestic terrorism'. Trump has given them the OK to do more. He created to movement, he gave it permission, and now he is telling them to 'go for it'.

    Sad indeed.
    It is convenient for Trump that the headlines have changed from Korea, to Charlottesville where his rank, and file supporters are exercising their right to freedom of speech guaranteed under The Constitution.

    The United States is a divided nation well illustrated by the violence in Charlottesville. Nothing new to report here.

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    JUB Addict luckynumbah7's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Robert E. Lee had understood that slavery was contrary to the well being of the United States, and said so in public.

    Robert E. Lee did not fight for The Confederacy to support slavery, and by 1859 had released those slaves that he had inherited from his late father.

    Despite being substantial slave owners there appears to be no movement in favour of removing the statues of George Washington, and Thomas Jefferson.
    Much like Abraham Lincoln, Robert E. Lee just did not want to deal with the problem. They fought because they, as individuals (and in the case of Lincoln, as also president), judged it necessary for the masses. The reasons behind why they chose a course of action cannot be so pettily summed up as "First & foremost, they did it for the good of black folks." Their own words show that just isn't accurate.

    Geeze, it's almost like people think men of strong character form one opinion and stick with it throughout their lives, never shall it diverge or crumble, or, God Forfend, be contradictory in any way; That's not how people actually work though, and you can fight for an excellent cause for all the selfish reasons in the book.

    Even when most books conveniently fails to bring 'em up in print.
    Last edited by luckynumbah7; August 13th, 2017 at 05:48 AM.
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  3. #53
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    What I deeply regret is that trying to have any rational conversation now, about keeping and preserving historical monuments, and preserving the past, is doomed to failure, and everything surrounding the issue is going to be polarised to the extremes of BOTH sides.

    Just because this particular controversy (apparently about a Robert E. Lee statue) has been hijacked by a bunch of extremists, it doesn't mean that all people supporting keeping statues in place are to be tarred with the same brush.

    If you walk around central London you will see any number of small and medium-sized statues, all over the place, of individuals from British Empire colonial history, of innumerate soldiers, statesmen, etc. mostly from the 17th, 18th and early 19th century. They are not controversial, most people walk straight past them.

    They inform people about the era that is gone and the prominent people that shaped society at that time. And so the statues gradually changed, and with the late 19th century and early 20th century they became more of industrialists, philanthropists, scientists, etc.

    I wish that Confederate monuments and statues could be perceived just as that. Historically notable people. Not as a pretext and backdrop to modern-day racial division.
    The European mindset is probably much more mature when dealing with the legacies of colonial intervention around the globe, and for this reason there is not the same emotional response to symbols of the past that easily trigger violent reactions in the USA.

    The recent Cecil Rhodes statue debate at Oxford University has been resolved amicably (by the students voting to keep the statue in its place) with an awareness that very many students from the UKs former overseas territories have received, and are receiving scholarships at Oxford University through the Rhodes scholarship endowment fund that covers their expenses.

    Extremists of all descriptions can be harnessed by shadowy interests to serve their agenda, with the awareness that in the United States the race factor remains an open sore for a society that appears not to be able to come to terms with its past.

    Tragically it would appear that Trump is taking advantage of the events at Charlottesville to embolden his electoral support.

  4. #54
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post
    Much like Abraham Lincoln, Robert E. Lee just did not want to deal with the problem. They fought because they, as individuals (and in the case of Lincoln, as also president), judged it necessary for the masses. The reasons behind why they chose a course of action cannot be so pettily summed up as "First & foremost, they did it for the good of black folks." Their own words show that just isn't accurate.

    Geeze, it's almost like people think men of strong character form one opinion and stick with it throughout their lives, never shall it diverge or crumble, or, God Forfend, be contradictory in any way; That's not how people actually work though, and you can fight for an excellent cause for all the selfish reasons in the book.

    Even when most books conveniently fails to bring 'em up in print.
    Much as I agree with your sentiments we are both aware that even the more progressive of politicians, and military leaders of the 19th century held views that today we would designate as racist. It serves no purpose to try and transpose today's more enlightened views on racial harmony, with those of some 150 years ago.

    In my opinion those interests that started the process of removing Robert E. Lee's statue were rather limited in their understanding of the consequences that could, and have arisen due to their limited outlook.

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    JUB Addict luckynumbah7's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post
    Their own words show that just isn't accurate.
    As both Lincoln and Lee wrote.

    And what would you suggest doing, while groups actively point to historical figures in a cause that hasn't croaked, demand their own version of the earthbound messiah (one of many used, natch) be kept so that it may be looked upon as a reminder to 'fight the good fight'? Even General Lee didn't go for that particular bit of bullshit; he wanted that type of encouragement squashed at the earliest opportunity regarding the Confederate flag. I doubt, highly doubt, that he'd nod-and-smile while people used his statue to rally around the same show of racism that he said should be put behind said masses.
    Last edited by luckynumbah7; August 13th, 2017 at 06:01 AM.
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  6. #56
    coleos patentes rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia


  7. #57
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post
    As both Lincoln and Lee wrote.

    And what would you suggest doing, while groups actively point to historical figures in a cause that hasn't croaked, demand their own version of the earthbound messiah (one of many used, natch) be kept so that it may be looked upon as a reminder to 'fight the good fight'? Even General Lee didn't go for that particular bit of bullshit; he wanted that type of encouragement squashed at the earliest opportunity regarding the Confederate flag. I doubt, highly doubt, that he'd nod-and-smile while people used his statue to rally around the same show of racism that he said should be put behind said masses.
    We are in agreement for we are aware that there is great ignorance of American history, compounded by particular interests that connive to act as if they are responsible for cleaning up the nation's sin filled past by removing the statue of a revered Confederacy hero....without recognising that such an action would trigger a violent reaction from those who represent another understanding of American history.

    There's much to be said for leaving symbols of American history in place, rather than remove them to assuage the feelings of those who choose not to be reminded of America's civil war.

  8. #58
    JUB Addict luckynumbah7's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    There's much to be said for leaving symbols of American history in place, rather than remove them to assuage the feelings of those who choose not to be reminded of America's civil war.
    They key word, there, is history.

    In point of fact, it is not history. It's current events. It's been current events for well over 152 years. And quite bluntly, it hasn't changed all that much.

    And you do not deal with current events the same way you deal with a bit of interesting historical narrative you find at the local museum.
    Last edited by luckynumbah7; August 13th, 2017 at 06:14 AM.
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  9. #59
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post
    They key word, there, is history.

    In point of fact, it is not history. It's current events. It's been current events for well over 152 years.
    That's a poignant way of characterising the ongoing events in Charlottesville, with the further understanding that waving a red cape at a raging bull will always trigger a bloody reaction.

    Had those interests that wanted to remove the statue not progressed with their agenda, the statue would not have attracted the attention, and support of those who represent a retrogressive outlook on how a civilised society should be managing its racial divisions. For the right wing extremists that statue has now become a rallying cry, and sacred to those whom we here are embarrassed to call our neighbours. This type of moron also exists in Greece, but we have managed to marginalise them sufficiently for them not to endanger our democratic processes.

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    JUB Addict luckynumbah7's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post

    In my opinion those interests that started the process of removing Robert E. Lee's statue were rather limited in their understanding of the consequences that could, and have arisen due to their limited outlook.
    On the contrary, I think they had at least an inkling of what would occur; that they removed the statue anyway shows both strength of character and a willingness to stay the course through the long haul. When you deal with boils, you cover them - if the infection is not too great, they recede on their own; if the infection is particularly nasty, as with racism, you cover with a hot compress or suchlike so it rises to the surface and may be lanced. Can't get rid of it otherwise.
    “I'm not cruel, sir, I won't shoot you in the guts, but I will make you realize how much you took your toes for granted.”
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  11. #61
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post
    On the contrary, I think they had at least an inkling of what would occur; that they removed the statue anyway shows both strength of character and a willingness to stay the course through the long haul. When you deal with boils, you cover them - if the infection is not too great, they recede on their own; if the infection is particularly nasty, as with racism, you cover with a hot compress or suchlike so it rises to the surface and may be lanced. Can't get rid of it otherwise.
    This is where our thinking differs. I would never offer an extremist group a rallying point for their imaginary cause.

    Tragically the so called do gooders have managed to embolden, and strengthen those on the extreme right...and also contributed to a rise in Trump's popularity...that had been sliding south with some speed.

    Naive strategies are best left to children playing their Alice in Wonderland games.

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    Lonely MakeDigitalLove's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Kallipolis are you a white nationalist/Nazi sympathizer?

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    coleos patentes rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Last edited by rareboy; August 13th, 2017 at 07:05 AM.

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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    We are in agreement for we are aware that there is great ignorance of American history, compounded by particular interests that connive to act as if they are responsible for cleaning up the nation's sin filled past by removing the statue of a revered Confederacy hero....without recognising that such an action would trigger a violent reaction from those who represent another understanding of American history.

    There's much to be said for leaving symbols of American history in place, rather than remove them to assuage the feelings of those who choose not to be reminded of America's civil war.
    I guess there's a similar argument to be made for keeping statues of Hitler in place across Europe too?

  15. #65
    JUB Addict luckynumbah7's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    This is where our thinking differs. I would never offer an extremist group a rallying point for their imaginary cause.
    You already did, Mr. Leave Up Lee's Statue. Nor is it an imaginary cause, it's alive and well.

    Unless you, personally, are in the habit of arguing imaginary causes?
    Last edited by luckynumbah7; August 13th, 2017 at 07:06 AM.
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  16. #66
    coleos patentes rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post
    You already did, Mr. Leave Up Lee's Statue.
    Uh Yeah.....

  17. #67
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    I guess there's a similar argument to be made for keeping statues of Hitler in place across Europe too?
    Even for you it is a long stretch of the imagination to refer to .....................................

    ..............Robert E. Lee as Der Führer.

  18. #68
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post
    You already did, Mr. Leave Up Lee's Statue. Nor is it an imaginary cause, it's alive and well.

    Unless you, personally, are in the habit of arguing imaginary causes?
    The imagination of the right wing extremists has been emboldened by those who believe that by removing the statue of Robert E. Lee all trace of racist behaviour will magically disappear.

    Tragically the do gooders have done more good for the racist imagination, than anything they could have dreamed.

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    JUB Addict luckynumbah7's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Naive strategies are best left to children playing their Alice in Wonderland games.
    I'm a lot of things. I've been a lot of things. Naivete was never particularly high on the list of qualities I possess; I couldn't, and currently cannot, afford that particular privilege. In that vein, I'm also not dim enough to believe leaving a statue up of a general that biggotted right-wing white nationalist nazi's rally around is a good idea.

    No matter how far back you'd personally enjoy pretending that particular bit of history impacts and encourages current events.
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  20. #70
    JUB Addict luckynumbah7's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Even for you it is a long stretch of the imagination to refer to .....................................

    ..............Robert E. Lee as Der Führer.
    No, that's Trump. I typed earthbound messiah for Gen. Lee (despite the base being unwilling to listen to Lee's ghost telling them to shove the confederate flag up their collective ass and get the fuck over it).

    If you want to play Wonderland Games because you're losing the argument online, you'll be eating those tarts in an attempt to dispel the evidence rather quickly.

    You're future indigestion is all on you; I want you to remember that.
    Last edited by luckynumbah7; August 13th, 2017 at 07:22 AM.
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  21. #71
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post
    I'm a lot of things. I've been a lot of things. Naivete was never particularly high on the list of qualities I possess; I couldn't, and currently cannot, afford that particular privilege. In that vein, I'm also not dim enough to believe leaving a statue up of a general that biggotted right-wing white nationalist nazi's rally around is a good idea.

    No matter how far back you'd personally enjoy pretending that particular bit of history impacts and encourages current events.
    You're not the reference point here, for to the best of my knowledge (please correct me) you were not involved in planning the removal of the statue under discussion here.

  22. #72
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post
    No, that's Trump. I typed earthbound messiah for Gen. Lee (despite the base being unwilling to listen to Lee's ghost telling them to shove the confederate flag up their collective ass and get the fuck over it).

    If you want to play Wonderland Games because you're losing the argument online, you'll be eating those tarts in an attempt to dispel the evidence rather quickly.

    You're future indigestion is all on you; I want you to remember that.
    Alice in Wonderland tactics that assume by removing a statue race relations will improve is lost on me.

    Censorship of a nation's history is not conducive to the democratic process, nor of educating the ignorant.

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    Lonely MakeDigitalLove's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Alice in Wonderland tactics that assume by removing a statue race relations will improve is lost on me.

    Censorship of a nation's history is not conducive to the democratic process, nor of educating the ignorant.
    The funny thing is the people who want the statue taken down aren't the ones who are "censoring" history or pretending that the statue represented something that was worth keeping it up. They very people that want to keep it up are the ones that like censoring and revising history.

    The lack of the answer to my question earlier has been answered. With you constantly pointing the finger at the people against the white nationalists/Nazis at being at fault and for consistently attempting to derail this thread.

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    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by MakeDigitalLove View Post
    The funny thing is the people who want the statue taken down aren't the ones who are "censoring" history or pretending that the statue represented something that was worth keeping it up. They very people that want to keep it up are the ones that like censoring and revising history.
    I'm assuming that the statue has been in place for well over one hundred years, without there being any perceived need to remove the statue from its plinth for fear that the statue is inspiring racists to be more offensive than they regularly are.

    Robert E. Lee's statue serves as a reminder that civil war, and violence of any kind will never resolve the issues of racial division.

    A visible reminder...the statue... of the most costly war in human lives, in American history can only serve to remind people that there is a dying need to address race issues that do not deny the nation its democratic right to learn the full story, and not just about the events that serve any particular agenda.

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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Alice in Wonderland tactics that assume by removing a statue race relations will improve is lost on me.
    Then for the naive, here you go. Small, in bite-size chunks so's not to upset your stomach. I suggest you quit pretending symbols currently in use are merely a bit of long-dead history shown via art as well.

    https://newsela.com/read/hate-symbols/id/11498
    Last edited by luckynumbah7; August 13th, 2017 at 07:59 AM.
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post
    Then for the naive, here you go. Small, in bite-size chunks so's not to upset your stomach. I suggest you quit pretending symbols currently in use are merely a bit of long-dead history shown via art as well.

    https://newsela.com/read/hate-symbols/id/11498
    And before there's whinging that there's mandatory signing up, it's free. If you're under the impression that learning should be spoon-fed to you past childhood, that's another thing you'll be having to get the hell over.

    Now me, I think that you already know the basics of how symbolism works or you wouldn't be putting forth shoddy bloody arguments trying to leave up a statue - one, I'll add, that Lee wouldn't have wanted people to rally around in the first place.
    “I'm not cruel, sir, I won't shoot you in the guts, but I will make you realize how much you took your toes for granted.”
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    coleos patentes rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Even for you it is a long stretch of the imagination to refer to .....................................

    ..............Robert E. Lee as Der Führer.
    You miss the point.

    What Lee and the South stood for was just as heinous as Hitler in the 20th century except to those who want to whitewash history.

    You have tried to unsuccessfully be an apologist for Lee the man, it simply comes down to the fact that he is a hero and symbol today to all of those who still refuse to accept that they lost the fight to own other people that many of them still regard as genetically, morally, and intellectually inferior.

    And most of this wasn't about the blacks. The neo-nazis marching yesterday rally around Lee in their sweeping hatred of Jews, homosexuals and anyone else who doesn't pass the Aryan sniff test.

    If you are to be believed, you are opining on this from the distant and detached port of Piraeus. Any of us who have experienced the immediacy of the far right wing, white nationalist hate in the southern US states can assure you that there is something much darker going on here than a fuss over removing a statue. That is only pretext.
    Last edited by rareboy; August 13th, 2017 at 08:12 AM.

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    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post
    Then for the naive, here you go. Small, in bite-size chunks so's not to upset your stomach. I suggest you quit pretending symbols currently in use are merely a bit of long-dead history shown via art as well.

    https://newsela.com/read/hate-symbols/id/11498
    As already replied to another poster it really stretches the imagination to compare Robert E. Lee, with Adolph Hitler.

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    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    You miss the point.

    What Lee and the South stood for was just as heinous as Hitler in the 20th century except to those who want to whitewash history.

    You have tried to unsuccessfully be an apologist for Lee the man, it simply comes down to the fact that he is a hero and symbol today to all of those who still refuse to accept that they lost the fight to own other people that many of them still regard as genetically, morally, and intellectually inferior.

    And most of this wasn't about the blacks. The neo-nazis marching yesterday rally around Lee in their sweeping hatred of Jews, homosexuals and anyone else who doesn't pass the Aryan sniff test.

    If you are to be believed, you are opining on this from the distant and detached port of Piraeus. Any of us who have experienced the immediacy of the far right wing, white nationalist hate in the southern US states can assure you that there is something much darker going on here than a fuss over removing a statue. That is only pretext.
    No point is missed, for your opinion holds no water.

    Robert E. Lee and Adolph Hitler share nothing in common despite your obsessive, compulsive need to make it so.

    Should we compare George Washington, and Thomas Jefferson with Hitler because they each owned a large retinue of slaves, and believed that the rights of man were not for Black skinned Americans?

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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    http://www.esquire.com/news-politics...ate-monuments/

    "
    I have never looked up to the men whose effigies stand tall in various parts of the South. I never thought they were heroes, simply because of the fact that they were fighting for a destructive, evil cause. We can have an endless debate over "states' rights" as the root of the Civil War; I find it pointless, because it is nothing more than a convenient narrative to avoid the truth. These men were fighting against the notion that all men and women—not just the white men in power, and the women who stood beside them—deserve the life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for which our forefathers fought in the late 18th century. They wanted to continue the practice of enslaving black men and women, of protecting whiteness. I will never see a Confederate flag or monument and separate it from a history of white supremacy, no matter how often I was instructed by our biased history lessons to ignore it.
    "
    Last edited by opinterph; August 14th, 2017 at 11:29 AM. Reason: added quote tags
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    And while I'm available, quite pointing at the founding fathers as if you're not aware their statues and documents and historical markers are deliberately meant to reference the creation of our independence and constitution.

    That's not the same thing as, say, if someone put up a statue of Jefferson (we'll use Jefferson because you keep trying to bring the 'freedom' angle using name-drops as signifiers of such) because he owned slaves and led an army in a treasonous battle to keep the practice. Not that Jefferson did, but let's be crystal about what you're arguing for. You wanna see General Lee's statue's Southern Heritage and what it represents to people both when it was erected and today, you''ll have to scroll up and read that esquire article.
    Last edited by luckynumbah7; August 13th, 2017 at 08:53 AM.
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    For your replies to the thread;

    “Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
    -Sartre

    Close enough for government work, anyway.

    And don't think I haven't noted exactly how much you love our 'Freedom of Speech'. Going to start calling it 'Freedom From Speech", as that's what it seems to really entail, in its heart-of-hearts.
    Last edited by luckynumbah7; August 13th, 2017 at 08:58 AM.
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post
    That's not the same thing as, say, if someone put up a statue of Jefferson (we'll use Jefferson because you keep trying to bring the 'freedom' angle using name-drops as signifiers of such) because he owned slaves and led an army in a treasonous battle to keep the practice. Not that Jefferson did, but let's be crystal about what you're arguing for.
    Mind you, he did own slaves. What Jefferson didn't do was lead the south and get a statue put up in his honor that nazi's come out saluting for.

    Clarity & all.
    Last edited by luckynumbah7; August 13th, 2017 at 09:04 AM.
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post
    You wanna see General Lee's statue's Southern Heritage and what it represents to people both when it was erected and today, you''ll have to scroll up and read that esquire article.
    ...Or you could read yesterday's Charlottesville news. Which I've also noticed you've been conveniently ignoring during your virtue signaling by repeatedly mentioning the Founding Fathers (as if we're supposed to connect General Lee's behavior with those same documents of freedom that Jefferson is noted for) in a thread that was supposedly centering the hatred and loathing rallying around Lee's statue that you've been deliberately ignoring.
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Oh, what the hell; one more bit of knowledge for the people sitting in the back rows.

    http://visual-memory.co.uk/daniel/Do...S4B/sem02.html

    Ponder that when someone is signaling virtue by the repetitive mention of the signers of the Declaration of Independence statuary as being in a similar circumstance to the statuary of a general who led a treasonous rebellion. Let alone when the statue's purpose is far from being historical in nature. Symbols matter.
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    coleos patentes rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    No point is missed, for your opinion holds no water.

    Robert E. Lee and Adolph Hitler share nothing in common despite your obsessive, compulsive need to make it so.

    Should we compare George Washington, and Thomas Jefferson with Hitler because they each owned a large retinue of slaves, and believed that the rights of man were not for Black skinned Americans?
    Yup. You totally missed the point.

    This isn't comparing the man Lee to the man Hitler. It isn't about Washington and Jefferson...who predated the actual civil war and abolition.

    It was about preserving monuments and shrines to the leaders of lost causes that had terrible consequences for millions of people.

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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    It was about preserving monuments and shrines to the leaders of lost causes that had terrible consequences for millions of people.
    He's been willfully ignoring that, I dunno that the repetition will do any good when people use their widely-read background in such a manner as to pretend 'all symbols of the past have nothing to do with the present."
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    this one just got fired...



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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post

    Ponder that when someone is signaling virtue by the repetitive mention of the signers of the Declaration of Independence statuary as being in a similar circumstance to the statuary of a general who led a treasonous rebellion. Let alone when the statue's purpose is far from being historical in nature. Symbols matter.
    Oooooh, my bad. Signaling freedom, to be specific; of which the belief/having-of is considered a virtue in politics, art and 'free expression'. That is, virtue-signaling as its meant in its original form.

    Just in case someone wants to jump in with claims of a vicious 'witchhunt' when disagreements are explained concisely, which is an extremely popular tactic for those whose opinions cannot stand on their own merits.
    Last edited by luckynumbah7; August 13th, 2017 at 11:18 AM.
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    If you are to be believed, you are opining on this from the distant and detached port of Piraeus. Any of us who have experienced the immediacy of the far right wing, white nationalist hate in the southern US states can assure you that there is something much darker going on here than a fuss over removing a statue. That is only pretext.
    There should probably be an addition that it's not only the southern states that do this. There were plenty of Confederate flags and such located where I grew up; along with all the views that went with it. Largely, the only difference I've been able to find between the two is that the North was/is pissed that the South had the audacity to try and secede. There's no lack of animosity about that bit, not then and not a 150+ years later, no matter how often or how well it's couched in terms of 'North fightin' for freedom for all, No Really'.
    Last edited by luckynumbah7; August 13th, 2017 at 12:23 PM.
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  41. #91
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    What's a few Americans run over by a White Supremacist compared to her EMAILS?
    Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by gsdx View Post
    What's a few Americans run over by a White Supremacist compared to her EMAILS?
    Shhhhh, you'll be complaining about sexism in politics and using any excuse available not to elect next!

    Of which there's been about as much actual introspection regarding sexism in the election results + Clinton via those representatives as there has been against the racism that Cheeto is emboldening in the new nazi party. Or the old nazi party, if you prefer. At least the latter is being commented on, Clinton just 'poofted' via discussing sexist media representation. One thing at a time, I suppose - out of sight out of mind always has been popular.
    Last edited by luckynumbah7; August 13th, 2017 at 12:54 PM.
    “I'm not cruel, sir, I won't shoot you in the guts, but I will make you realize how much you took your toes for granted.”
    ― Terry Pratchett, Snuff

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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Reactions to Trump's statement made from his vacation golf course:

    "We should call evil by its name. My brother didn't give his life fighting Hitler for Nazi ideas to go unchallenged here at home. -OGH" — Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, on Twitter.

    "Mr. President - we must call evil by its name. These were white supremacists and this was domestic terrorism." — Sen. Cory Gardner, R-Colo., on Twitter.

    "The violence, chaos, and apparent loss of life in Charlottesville is not the fault of "many sides." It is racists and white supremacists." — Virginia Attorney General Mark Herring, a Democrat.

    "White supremacists, Neo-Nazis and anti-Semites are the antithesis of our American values. There are no other "sides" to hatred and bigotry." — Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, R-Fla., on Twitter.

    And, of course:

    "Trump comments were good. He didn't attack us. He just said the nation should come together. Nothing specific against us. ... No condemnation at all. When asked to condemn, he just walked out of the room. Really, really good. God bless him." — Daily Stormer, a white supremacist website promoting the Charlottesville demonstration as part of its Summer of Hate edition.

    More reactions: https://ca.news.yahoo.com/reactions-...003414050.html
    Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Twitter is Identifying White Supremacist Neo-Nazi Marchers (And You Can Help)


    Twitter user “Yes, You’re Racist” is soliciting help from the Internet to identify and shame white supremacist neo-Nazis who marched in Virginia this weekend.*
    Prior to Saturday’s harrowing white supremacist rally that*left one dead, hundreds of white supremacists marched through the University of Virginia chanting “White Lives Matter,” “You will not replace us!”, “Jew will not replace us!” and the Nazi slogan “blood and soil,” tiki torches in hand. **

    http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement...d_you_can_help



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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by gsdx View Post
    What's a few Americans run over by a White Supremacist compared to her EMAILS?
    That matter has died...I wonder why?

    Perhaps Robert Mueller's investigation is becoming a little too embarrassing for certain parties.

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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Yup. You totally missed the point.

    This isn't comparing the man Lee to the man Hitler. It isn't about Washington and Jefferson...who predated the actual civil war and abolition.

    It was about preserving monuments and shrines to the leaders of lost causes that had terrible consequences for millions of people.
    I can read....shock....you're the poster comparing Lee, with Hitler....not I.

    Lost causes, or lost wars does not suddenly invalidate the importance of preserving the facts of a civil war, the consequences of which continue to reverberate sufficiently to impact on the racial divisions in American society.

    Had the do gooders not chosen to force a removal of Lee's statue there would not have been riots, deaths, and injuries in Charlottville over this weekend. Look at the terrible consequences of that inane decision.

    Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past. ¬George Orwell

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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    If a psycho hadn't decided to drive his car into a group of people, then there wouldn't be injured or deaths. But continue to keep spinning this to justify violence, it's no surprise, you've done it on here before.

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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Why aren't there any positive news from America like eWTP ?


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    Quote Originally Posted by MakeDigitalLove View Post
    If a psycho hadn't decided to drive his car into a group of people, then there wouldn't be injured or deaths. But continue to keep spinning this to justify violence, it's no surprise, you've done it on here before.

    Just for your information the facts are here:

    http://wjla.com/news/local/city-of-c...ce-at-va-rally

    I quote:

    "The City of Charlottesville and Charlottesville City Council send our thoughts to the families of the three Virginia residents who lost their lives yesterday, August 12, 2017. Charlottesville resident Heather Heyer was struck down by a vehicle while exercising her peaceful first-amendment right to speech. This senseless act of violence rips a hole in our collective hearts. While it will never make up for the loss of a member of our community, we will pursue charges against the driver of the vehicle that caused her death and are confident justice will prevail. Virginia State Police Lieutenant H. Jay Cullen and Trooper-Pilot Berke M. M. Bates were working with the Charlottesville Police and their brothers and sisters in the Virginia State Police to help ensure the safety of the many city residents and visitors who were in Charlottesville yesterday. These men gave their lives in the line of duty and our gratitude to them cannot be overstated.

  50. #100
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    Re: White Hate in Charlottesville, Virginia

    I'm very sorry to hear about and see the racist violence in West Virginia. Seeing Klan members and people carrying Confederate battle flags is disturbing, but not surprising. All of that being said, I have never been in favor taking down historic statues without careful thought. Many of these statues have stood for many years and suddenly they are offensive and should be torn down. Yes, some statues and certainly some flags should have been removed a long time ago, but where does it end? Are people determined to take down every confederate monument? Such actions are rash and cosmetic, not having a positive effect on stamping out racism. You can change your clothes and hairstyle, but if you are a racist inside, nothing has truly changed. We must get to the heart of the issue and not just superficial things. Find out, root out, and oppose racist groups. As we well know, many of these people are complete idiots and very dangerous.

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