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  1. #1
    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    The Old Testament Basics !!!

    Its all about the history of ONE race or one small area on earth.
    I don't understand why other races such as the Europeans uses it as their own book.






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    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    Where were the Tatars, the Vikings, the Mongols ... etc fit in the Old Testament ?


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    Moderator JUB Moderator star-warrior's Avatar
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    For some people, the biblical flood is as real as the so called fact that only Noah and his family are the sole survivors, and thus everyone alive now are somehow descended from them. By extension, any and all ethnic groups are just explained away by means of the get of Noah's loins etc. These believers or fantasists insist on it.

    The scientific suggestion of the Out of Africa theory has also given this biblical fantasy a boost for some too.


  4. #4
    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    I am watching "Barbarians - the Huns"
    The pope at the time said "the Huns are evil" but blame the victims saying "Clearly god has punished them for their sins, they must offer their righteous obedient to the Church or suffer the consequences of the Huns brutality"

    At those time, religion is politic hide behind "god".
    What is the modern word for this? A rat ??


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  5. #5
    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    and from "the Huns" documentary,
    the comments said " Huns are ancient Mongoloids. They are most common in Nenets today." and they look like this:



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  6. #6
    'Shiver me timbers' BiMeGuy's Avatar
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    But, according to the Ancient Astronaut Theory, since I have negative blood; I am a descendant of the Ancient Aliens themselves.
    "Nobody's 'upposed to touch me where my bathing suit covers!" - Tardy Turtle.

  7. #7
    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    And how does the China's Last Matriarchy fit in the bible ?




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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    Actually that Old Testament history is interesting and informative. You are right it is only about one people. Don't have any answers for you.

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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rickrock View Post
    Actually that Old Testament history is interesting and informative. You are right it is only about one people. Don't have any answers for you.
    I highly recommend THE BIBLE UNEARTHED by Israel Finklestein and Neil Asher Silberman: an attempt to separate myth from history supported by modern archeological discoveries.

  10. #10
    Porn Star MainEntry's Avatar
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    The Jewish scriptures (the "Old" Testament) is not a history book which states facts. It's a theology book with stories as illustrations of the relationship between God and humankind.

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    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by MainEntry View Post
    The Jewish scriptures (the "Old" Testament) is not a history book which states facts. It's a theology book with stories as illustrations of the relationship between God and humankind.
    That makes several assumptions. Fact is you have no idea what the motives of the authors were. you don't even know with any certainty who they were. Parts of it certainly are a chronicle, some looks like poetry, some is law. Most probably there was no one motive for all of it, and it's an amalgam of differing kinds of texts intended for different purposes.

    In any event there are plenty of Christians out there who will insist that it is (contrary to your opinion) FACTUALLY true right down to the parting of seas. Yes, we know YOU will dispute that, but then who's to say your opinions on the subject should be given greater weight than anyone else's.

    Frankly I've never understood why an omnipotent God needed to write fantasy fiction to get a point across.
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  12. #12
    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    myth, legend and some historical stories turned into god book.
    Last edited by Telstra; December 29th, 2017 at 03:22 AM.


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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by star-warrior View Post
    For some people, the biblical flood is as real as the so called fact that only Noah and his family are the sole survivors, and thus everyone alive now are somehow descended from them. By extension, any and all ethnic groups are just explained away by means of the get of Noah's loins etc. These believers or fantasists insist on it.

    The scientific suggestion of the Out of Africa theory has also given this biblical fantasy a boost for some too.
    Christian who randomly found these forums via google search. I probably shouldn't be here, but here's my two cents to your question.

    The biblical story is not just a fairy tale because it happened and is embedded in the history of nations worldwide. Some argue the Torah is copied off the Sumerian tablets, but that is not the case as evidenced by other religions holding the same elements. The worldwide flood mentioned in genesis is mentioned in ancient Greek, Chinese, Indian, Japanese, and even Mesoamerican religions.

    Notable similarities
    -Mankind was destroyed because of wickedness
    -One family survived (8 people)
    -An ark was built to save the people
    -Saving all animals
    -A dove appearing
    -A rainbow

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

    Take your time to read them all, you'll be surprised of the similarities

    So, you can see, the bible is not some made up fairy-tale

    The Chinese language's writing is a retelling of Genesis and dates back to about 1500BC
    To create
    造 = 土 (earth/dust) + to walk (won't let me type chuo radical on pc) + 口 (man)
    Genesis: 2:4 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

    Spirit

    靈 = 雨 (rain) + 口 (mouth) + 口 (mouth) + 口 (mouth) + 工 (work) + 人 (people) + 人 (people)

    The character for spirit appears to be retelling God is three-in-one (trinity) as he created Adam and Eve.

    Happiness
    福 = 示?(older versions use the character "reveal") + 一 (one) + 口 (mouth/man) + 田 (garden)

    God blessed the Sabbath after he finished creating the earth, garden, and single human [Adam].

    Genesis 2:2
    By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

    Man
    男 = 田 (field/garden) +力 (strength)

    Genesis 3:17-19
    To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

    Woman


    The Chinese character for woman is a pictograph of a woman breastfeeding a baby.

    Genesis 3:16
    To the woman he [Jehovah] said, I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

    Desire/Covet
    婪 = 女 (woman) + 林 (trees)
    Eve was tempted to eat the forbidden fruit of the tree.

    Genesis: 1:6
    When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.

    Forbidden
    禁 = 示 (reveal) + 林 (trees)

    Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat fruit from a tree God commanded not to. Eating from the fruit would "open" the eyes of Adam and Eve and reveal they were naked.
    Genesis 3:4-5
    “You will not certainly die,” the serpent [Satan] said to the woman [Eve]. “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

    Demon
    鬼 = 田 (field/garden) + 儿 (legs/man) + 厶 (secret)
    魔 = 鬼 + 广 (to spread)

    Genesis 3:1
    Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

    Suffering
    楚 = 林 (trees) + 下 (under/to descend) + 人 (people)

    The fall of man is reflected in the character for suffering; Adam and Eve's decision to eat the fruit brought sin into the world.

    Naked
    裸 = 示 (reveal) + 果 (fruit; 田 [field/garden] + 木 [tree])
    光光 (literally means bright bright)

    Genesis 3:2
    Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.


    Flood
    洪 = 水 (water) + 共 (together; ? + 八 (eight))

    Boat
    船 = 舟 + 八 + 口
    Note: This character uses 几 (muscle) instead of 八 (eight). Older versions of the character use eight instead.

    Noah and his family built an ark to survive the worldwide flood. A total of eight people survived.

    Genesis 7:13
    On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark.

    Tower
    塔 = 土 (earth) + 艹 (grass) + 人 (people) + 一 (one) + 口 (mouth/people)

    The character for tower refers to the tower of babel.

    Genesis 11:1-2
    Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

    Significance of Chinese characters retelling Genesis?
    China was not a Jewish nation yet knew Jehovah. They are retelling the story of what had happened after being scattered among the earth for the tower of babel. Chinese writing predates the Jews writing the Torah in 1500BC!

    You're probably gonna ask what makes the bible the reliable story? The simple answer to that is the Jews were forbidden to change the Torah. The oldest Torahs found still can be read by the Jews today in Israel and the Dead Sea Scrolls still match! The other religions were often meant to glorify their kings and were subject to change!

    Have a great day, you can always change your mind at anytime ^_^

  14. #14
    JUB Addict Mariatenebre's Avatar
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spence View Post
    Christian who randomly found these forums via google search. I probably shouldn't be here, but here's my two cents to your question.

    The biblical story is not just a fairy tale because it happened and is embedded in the history of nations worldwide. Some argue the Torah is copied off the Sumerian tablets, but that is not the case as evidenced by other religions holding the same elements. The worldwide flood mentioned in genesis is mentioned in ancient Greek, Chinese, Indian, Japanese, and even Mesoamerican religions.

    Notable similarities
    -Mankind was destroyed because of wickedness
    -One family survived (8 people)
    -An ark was built to save the people
    -Saving all animals
    -A dove appearing
    -A rainbow

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

    Take your time to read them all, you'll be surprised of the similarities

    So, you can see, the bible is not some made up fairy-tale

    The Chinese language's writing is a retelling of Genesis and dates back to about 1500BC
    To create
    造 = 土 (earth/dust) + to walk (won't let me type chuo radical on pc) + 口 (man)
    Genesis: 2:4 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

    Spirit

    靈 = 雨 (rain) + 口 (mouth) + 口 (mouth) + 口 (mouth) + 工 (work) + 人 (people) + 人 (people)

    The character for spirit appears to be retelling God is three-in-one (trinity) as he created Adam and Eve.

    Happiness
    福 = 示?(older versions use the character "reveal") + 一 (one) + 口 (mouth/man) + 田 (garden)

    God blessed the Sabbath after he finished creating the earth, garden, and single human [Adam].

    Genesis 2:2
    By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

    Man
    男 = 田 (field/garden) +力 (strength)

    Genesis 3:17-19
    To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

    Woman


    The Chinese character for woman is a pictograph of a woman breastfeeding a baby.

    Genesis 3:16
    To the woman he [Jehovah] said, I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

    Desire/Covet
    婪 = 女 (woman) + 林 (trees)
    Eve was tempted to eat the forbidden fruit of the tree.

    Genesis: 1:6
    When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.

    Forbidden
    禁 = 示 (reveal) + 林 (trees)

    Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat fruit from a tree God commanded not to. Eating from the fruit would "open" the eyes of Adam and Eve and reveal they were naked.
    Genesis 3:4-5
    “You will not certainly die,” the serpent [Satan] said to the woman [Eve]. “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

    Demon
    鬼 = 田 (field/garden) + 儿 (legs/man) + 厶 (secret)
    魔 = 鬼 + 广 (to spread)

    Genesis 3:1
    Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

    Suffering
    楚 = 林 (trees) + 下 (under/to descend) + 人 (people)

    The fall of man is reflected in the character for suffering; Adam and Eve's decision to eat the fruit brought sin into the world.

    Naked
    裸 = 示 (reveal) + 果 (fruit; 田 [field/garden] + 木 [tree])
    光光 (literally means bright bright)

    Genesis 3:2
    Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.


    Flood
    洪 = 水 (water) + 共 (together; ? + 八 (eight))

    Boat
    船 = 舟 + 八 + 口
    Note: This character uses 几 (muscle) instead of 八 (eight). Older versions of the character use eight instead.

    Noah and his family built an ark to survive the worldwide flood. A total of eight people survived.

    Genesis 7:13
    On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark.

    Tower
    塔 = 土 (earth) + 艹 (grass) + 人 (people) + 一 (one) + 口 (mouth/people)

    The character for tower refers to the tower of babel.

    Genesis 11:1-2
    Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

    Significance of Chinese characters retelling Genesis?
    China was not a Jewish nation yet knew Jehovah. They are retelling the story of what had happened after being scattered among the earth for the tower of babel. Chinese writing predates the Jews writing the Torah in 1500BC!

    You're probably gonna ask what makes the bible the reliable story? The simple answer to that is the Jews were forbidden to change the Torah. The oldest Torahs found still can be read by the Jews today in Israel and the Dead Sea Scrolls still match! The other religions were often meant to glorify their kings and were subject to change!

    Have a great day, you can always change your mind at anytime ^_^
    Actually many of the Bible's stories didn't happen or were mythologized. Also the consensus is that the Bible's stories were ripped from older Middle Eastern stories. True these stories exist in other cultures but again the Chinese were not influenced by the Hebrew scriptures nor did the Tower of Babel happen. Your attempt to link Chinese language to the Bible is circumstantial and faulty.

    Also as for the Torah we know it has been changed over time we have found earlier Torahs which had variations from modern ones. The Dead Sea Scroll also has variations over modern stories. Over all mainstream historians and scientists consider the Bible to be mythical and do not think it is a reliable account of history. Alot of cultures had flood myths which predate the Bible and association with trees with knowledge predate the Bible.



    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hanzi_of_Genesis
    Last edited by Mariatenebre; December 31st, 2017 at 10:21 PM.

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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    Just because several different cultures share a similar myth doesn't mean it actually happened... If that were the case then there would simply have to have been a Cinderella.

  16. #16
    100% haram HoodedRat's Avatar
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Frankly I've never understood why an omnipotent God needed to write fantasy fiction to get a point across.
    Particularly nonsensical fantasy fiction riddled with inconsistencies, errors, and lacking a coherent plotline.

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  17. #17
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Frankly I've never understood why an omnipotent God needed to write fantasy fiction to get a point across.
    Using fantasy fiction to get a point across is a common human affair. If there's a problem here, it's not that an omnipotent God would use such a means of communication perfectly suiting his audience, but that an omnipotent God would "need" to do anything at all.
    Somali Ostrich
    The worst thing...is not energy depletion, economic collapse, conventional war, or the expansion of totalitarian governments. As terrible as these catastrophes would be for us, they can be repaired in a few generations. The one process now going on that will take millions of years to correct is loss of genetic and species diversity by the destruction of natural habitats. This is the folly our descendants are least likely to forgive us.--e.o. wilson

  18. #18
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    Using fantasy fiction to get a point across is a common human affair. If there's a problem here, it's not that an omnipotent God would use such a means of communication perfectly suiting his audience, but that an omnipotent God would "need" to do anything at all.
    Only God is also omniscient and therefore would presumably understand that metaphor is highly contextual and would immediately be misunderstood by vast swathes of humanity who can't read Hebrew anyway.

    However I'm perfectly willing to concede people routinely write in metaphor, and allegory, and literary devices yet more obscure in an attempt to be portentous in one fashion or another. I'm actually saying in an appropriately metaphorical and human fashion that the Bible was actually written by just such fallible humans, and then endlessly misinterpreted by thousands of years of humans who couldn't agree on what was actually said.

    No gods, omnipotent or otherwise needed.
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    I did get a good chuckle out of the Chinese Characters thing though.
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    I did get a good chuckle out of the Chinese Characters thing though.
    Yeah... that one gave me the giggles as well.

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    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    If I was God, My testament would go like this:

    Beauasis 1, Chapter 1, verses 1-finis.

    "1:1 THIS IS NOT A PARABLE! PAY ATTENTION!

    1:2 Protect your children,

    1:3 Feed the Poor,

    1:4 Heal the sick,

    1:5 don't hurt each other's feelings,

    1:6 no killing, stealing, assault, name calling or bullying,

    1:7 I don't give a fuck who you fuck (consensualy),

    1:8 If you get self righteous I WILL drop a tornado on your pretentious ass - NONE of you speak for me!

    1:9 Not even Priests,

    1:10 It's all about the math.

    Right. That about covers it.

    Solve your own damn problems, it's why I gave you minds, and I'm off doing omnipotent, omniscient stuff you can't possibly understand and don't need to be bothered by your whining..."


    Of course I would then be subjected to thousands of years of pretentious humans saying that verse 1:1 up there was really just a metaphor and please contribute to the collection plate - and yeah, the earth would have been decimated by tornadoes.
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    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    FORGOT ONE!

    "... 1:11 Don't ask for my forgiveness, go get it from the people you fucked over..."
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  23. #23
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    Where were the Tatars, the Vikings, the Mongols ... etc fit in the Old Testament ?
    Dunno. With the Christians, maybe?

  24. #24
    Newbie Spence's Avatar
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariatenebre View Post
    Actually many of the Bible's stories didn't happen or were mythologized. Also the consensus is that the Bible's stories were ripped from older Middle Eastern stories. True these stories exist in other cultures but again the Chinese were not influenced by the Hebrew scriptures nor did the Tower of Babel happen. Your attempt to link Chinese language to the Bible is circumstantial and faulty.



    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hanzi_of_Genesis
    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    I did get a good chuckle out of the Chinese Characters thing though.
    Took a while to write this because the site logged me out the first time I wrote my response and life has been quite busy. I had to rewrite this statement again because it was lost.

    Did you examine my claim by yourself first and think about it? You probably own a smartphone and see the components of the characters yourself. Download a Chinese dictionary and view each of the characters
    on your own in Traditional Chinese.

    I looked at both the video and link you provided and found both of them to be filled with fallacies.
    First of all, the man in the video admits he does not know Mandarin and only "debunks" two characters...his claim is the 田 character means field or rice paddy.
    While it's true 田 does mean field and sometimes rice paddy, it still does not debunk the claim because 田 still refers to the environment, a rice paddy can still be considered a garden.
    He also claims the connection is not real by using later Chinese words such as translated western names and religions, those words did not exist in 2nd millennium BCE. His argument is fallacy and incorrect.

    I was hoping for a better argument by RationalWiki, but I still received similar argument with a couple of lies.
    The RationalWiki lies twice (maybe three times) in their attempt to debunk Chinese writing's connection the bible's book of Genesis. The first time they lied was falsely claiming the 八 character was created 1,800 years ago, the character actually existed in the Oracle bone script. Chinese oracle bone script actually dates back to the late 2nd millennium BCE, which is before 1000B.C. at minimal. They also exclude Mandarin was already an advanced writing system, even in the oldest found script.

    The second lie made by RationalWiki is claiming 園 (garden) and other characters are Simplified Han or Japanese Kanji characters, therefore meaning the whole claim is false from the start. They were wrong again, the 園 character is a traditional Chinese character pronounced yuán. While this may hold truth to it if someone claims 乱 (confusion) comes from the bible because it contains tongue, it still does not refute the traditional character I provided and explained earlier.

    I don't consider the third one a lie because it holds truth, however their claim that parts of a character are included strictly for phonic purposes does not apply to all Chinese writing.
    Forexample:
    鬼 (guǐ ) contains the same meaning like 魔 (mó ), but the only difference is adding the 广 part onto 魔. Where is the sound change here? RationalWiki claims part of a character is only used for phonic purposes and this isn't the case here.

    RationalWiki ironically proves the argument of creationists when trying to refute the 造 (to create) character and excluded a bit of information to make it fit their argument. The radical they say means "go" is a walking radicial. They claim 告 (to speak) is only meant for phonic purposes, but end up making the claim more consistent. Genesis clearly says God spoke and the man [Adam] was given life from the dust.

    I was somewhat surprised RationalWiki did not bring up arguments like 船 (boat) using 几 (muscle) instead of 八 (eight) in later versions。 Even if they did, that claim can easily be refuted by older versions of Mandarin writing. Looking at older versions of 船 clearly
    shows 八 (eight) instead of 几 (muscle) being used.

    Your counterargument has lied twice, used irrelevant information to claim the opposite, and did not refute the argument therefore it's faulty.

    I will discuss the first part eventually, life has proven itself to be busy.
    Last edited by Spence; January 13th, 2018 at 01:17 PM.

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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spence View Post
    Took a while to write this because the site logged me out the first time I wrote my response and life has been quite busy. I had to rewrite this statement again because it was lost.

    Did you examine my claim by yourself first and think about it? You probably own a smartphone and see the components of the characters yourself. Download a Chinese dictionary and view each of the characters
    on your own in Traditional Chinese.

    I looked at both the video and link you provided and found both of them to be filled with fallacies.
    First of all, the man in the video admits he does not know Mandarin and only "debunks" two characters...his claim is the 田 character means field or rice paddy.
    While it's true 田 does mean field and sometimes rice paddy, it still does not debunk the claim because 田 still refers to the environment, a rice paddy can still be considered a garden.
    He also claims the connection is not real by using later Chinese words such as translated western names and religions, those words did not exist in 2nd millennium BCE. His argument is fallacy and incorrect.

    I was hoping for a better argument by RationalWiki, but I still received similar argument with a couple of lies.
    The RationalWiki lies twice (maybe three times) in their attempt to debunk Chinese writing's connection the bible's book of Genesis. The first time they lied was falsely claiming the 八 character was created 1,800 years ago, the character actually existed in the Oracle bone script. Chinese oracle bone script actually dates back to the late 2nd millennium BCE, which is before 1000B.C. at minimal. They also exclude Mandarin was already an advanced writing system, even in the oldest found script.

    The second lie made by RationalWiki is claiming 園 (garden) and other characters are Simplified Han or Japanese Kanji characters, therefore meaning the whole claim is false from the start. They were wrong again, the 園 character is a traditional Chinese character pronounced yuán. While this may hold truth to it if someone claims 乱 (confusion) comes from the bible because it contains tongue, it still does not refute the traditional character I provided and explained earlier.

    I don't consider the third one a lie because it holds truth, however their claim that parts of a character are included strictly for phonic purposes does not apply to all Chinese writing.
    Forexample:
    鬼 (guǐ ) contains the same meaning like 魔 (mó ), but the only difference is adding the 广 part onto 魔. Where is the sound change here? RationalWiki claims part of a character is only used for phonic purposes and this isn't the case here.

    RationalWiki ironically proves the argument of creationists when trying to refute the 造 (to create) character and excluded a bit of information to make it fit their argument. The radical they say means "go" is a walking radicial. They claim 告 (to speak) is only meant for phonic purposes, but end up making the claim more consistent. Genesis clearly says God spoke and the man [Adam] was given life from the dust.

    I was somewhat surprised RationalWiki did not bring up arguments like 船 (boat) using 几 (muscle) instead of 八 (eight) in later versions。 Even if they did, that claim can easily be refuted by older versions of Mandarin writing. Looking at older versions of 船 clearly
    shows 八 (eight) instead of 几 (muscle) being used.

    Your counterargument has lied twice, used irrelevant information to claim the opposite, and did not refute the argument therefore it's faulty.

    I will discuss the first part eventually, life has proven itself to be busy.
    Actually I checked for this character 八 on the oracle bone script on wikipedia and found nothing there. Further more I have spoken to speakers of the Chinese language and rationalwiki's article is correct. This person here goes and refutes the Chinese character argument here.
    https://etb-biblical-errancy.blogspo...haracters.html

    ** The imitation parchment graphic is full of errors (my quotes are from _Chinese Characters_, by Dr. L. Wieger, S.J.):

    woman + trees = desire, covet
    Nope. The two trees “lin” are phonetic in the compound character, “lan”.

    serpent + trees = negative, no, not
    Nope. Itʼs “two divergent rods which one seeks to tie together”.

    mouth + tree = restrain
    Nope. “To encompass a tree, here taken to mean any object; to tie; to knot.”

    tree + enclosure (garden) = difficulty
    Nope. The original character was a bit different from the modern form, so “Weariness, exhaustion that forces [one] to stop on the way, to sleep under a tree. The modern form represents the same idea, but not so clearly; a camping under a tree.” Note that many Southern Chinese languages have a word, also pronounced “kun”, that means “to sleep”.

    hand + lance + me + sheep = righteousness
    Nope. There is no hand. Rather, the word for “I” is composed of two lances. “Two weapons in conflict, two rights that oppose one another, my right, and, by extension, my Ego.” The sheep has the “Idea of sweetness, of peace, of harmony”, thus the full character is “Harmony, good, understanding, peace restored after a conflict; convention concluded after a disagreement, restoring concord and giving satisfaction to the interested parties. Hence all the derived meanings…”

    noble person + lamb, sheep = beautiful
    Close enough. “A man resembling to the lamb, sweet, gentle, good”.

    Of course, itʼs interesting that only the Chinese knew as far back as the 18th century BC that Jesus was going to be sacrificed—which is the whole point of this little exercise.

    Cheers,
    Mike Wright


    Here is another article on the subject.

    http://pinyin.info/news/2006/misunde...l-proportions/

    http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CG/CG101.html

    In fact this author who is a linguistic expert does a detailed debunking on this website.

    http://www.raccoonbend.com/languages.../chinchar.html

    http://www.raccoonbend.com/languages...hcreation.html

    http://www.raccoonbend.com/languages...ar/cheden.html

    http://www.raccoonbend.com/languages...ar/chfall.html

    http://www.raccoonbend.com/languages...r/chflood.html

    http://www.raccoonbend.com/languages...r/chbabel.html


    The fact is your views fly in the face of the mainstream consensus of scientists and historians. The fact is that Genesis is not an accurate account of science or history and in fact is derived from earlier Pagan tales.

    Hell true monotheism only came about to the Jews during the Babylonian captivity. The Hebrews like their Canaanite ancestors in their earliest days were polytheists. Yahweh himself was a god worshiped by the Canaanites as well particularly the Shasu and Apirut. He was one of the 70 sons of El Elyon and Athirat and a quarrelsome war god. This explains his rather brutal, cruel and capricious side in the Bible such as how he orders mass racial genocides of various ethnic groups like the Midianites and Amelekites which Christians to this day defend these racial genocides while ironically saying that without their particular god you have no rational reason to be against genocide and yet they defend racial genocides including the slaughter of children when their god orders it. However with the Hebrews there were various movements called the Yahwist movements which taught strict devotion to Yahweh. Now they still believed in the other Gods they just only thought that Yahweh was worthy to be worshiped. This is clear in such Biblical texts as Yahweh presiding over a Divine Council of Gods. Certain Torah verses condemn the Hebrews for not worshiping false deities or demons but for worshiping "The Host of Heaven" aka the other Gods.

    Again your views are not in line with mainstream science, history or linguistics.

  26. #26
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spence View Post
    Took a while to write this because the site logged me out the first time I wrote my response and life has been quite busy. I had to rewrite this statement again because it was lost.

    Did you examine my claim by yourself first and think about it? You probably own a smartphone and see the components of the characters yourself. Download a Chinese dictionary and view each of the characters
    on your own in Traditional Chinese.

    I looked at both the video and link you provided and found both of them to be filled with fallacies.
    First of all, the man in the video admits he does not know Mandarin and only "debunks" two characters...his claim is the 田 character means field or rice paddy.
    While it's true 田 does mean field and sometimes rice paddy, it still does not debunk the claim because 田 still refers to the environment, a rice paddy can still be considered a garden.
    He also claims the connection is not real by using later Chinese words such as translated western names and religions, those words did not exist in 2nd millennium BCE. His argument is fallacy and incorrect.

    I was hoping for a better argument by RationalWiki, but I still received similar argument with a couple of lies.
    The RationalWiki lies twice (maybe three times) in their attempt to debunk Chinese writing's connection the bible's book of Genesis. The first time they lied was falsely claiming the 八 character was created 1,800 years ago, the character actually existed in the Oracle bone script. Chinese oracle bone script actually dates back to the late 2nd millennium BCE, which is before 1000B.C. at minimal. They also exclude Mandarin was already an advanced writing system, even in the oldest found script.

    The second lie made by RationalWiki is claiming 園 (garden) and other characters are Simplified Han or Japanese Kanji characters, therefore meaning the whole claim is false from the start. They were wrong again, the 園 character is a traditional Chinese character pronounced yuán. While this may hold truth to it if someone claims 乱 (confusion) comes from the bible because it contains tongue, it still does not refute the traditional character I provided and explained earlier.

    I don't consider the third one a lie because it holds truth, however their claim that parts of a character are included strictly for phonic purposes does not apply to all Chinese writing.
    Forexample:
    鬼 (guǐ ) contains the same meaning like 魔 (mó ), but the only difference is adding the 广 part onto 魔. Where is the sound change here? RationalWiki claims part of a character is only used for phonic purposes and this isn't the case here.

    RationalWiki ironically proves the argument of creationists when trying to refute the 造 (to create) character and excluded a bit of information to make it fit their argument. The radical they say means "go" is a walking radicial. They claim 告 (to speak) is only meant for phonic purposes, but end up making the claim more consistent. Genesis clearly says God spoke and the man [Adam] was given life from the dust.

    I was somewhat surprised RationalWiki did not bring up arguments like 船 (boat) using 几 (muscle) instead of 八 (eight) in later versions。 Even if they did, that claim can easily be refuted by older versions of Mandarin writing. Looking at older versions of 船 clearly
    shows 八 (eight) instead of 几 (muscle) being used.

    Your counterargument has lied twice, used irrelevant information to claim the opposite, and did not refute the argument therefore it's faulty.

    I will discuss the first part eventually, life has proven itself to be busy.
    Sorry... I'm just not buying into this. IMO the whole thing sounds utterly preposterous.

  27. #27
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    Hey Spence. I don't have an argument lying or otherwise, everything you propose relies on a massive amount of speculation and confirmation bias that is frankly impossible to take seriously.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    That makes several assumptions. Fact is you have no idea what the motives of the authors were. you don't even know with any certainty who they were. Parts of it certainly are a chronicle, some looks like poetry, some is law. Most probably there was no one motive for all of it, and it's an amalgam of differing kinds of texts intended for different purposes.

    In any event there are plenty of Christians out there who will insist that it is (contrary to your opinion) FACTUALLY true right down to the parting of seas. Yes, we know YOU will dispute that, but then who's to say your opinions on the subject should be given greater weight than anyone else's.

    Frankly I've never understood why an omnipotent God needed to write fantasy fiction to get a point across.
    LOL

    Your final sentence destroys everything above it: you're forcing a modern definition on ancient documents, and doing so without asking at all what the actual motives were.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  29. #29
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    Re: The Old Testament Basics !!!

    As to the original question, the answer is in the video, when he talks abut Job: the message is universal.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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