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  1. #1

    Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Hi guys. Iím not a very religious person, but Iíve always believed in God and Jesus. Lately, Iím having problems to reconcile my beliefs and my sexual orientation.

    Since I was a little kid, I always imagined being with a beautiful woman and forming a family with children. I imagined being a father and educating my children with joy (I still do it when I see a child). But when I started to realize I was gay, I repudiated it because I didnít want to be so. I knew it would bring complications in the future and I wanted to change.

    So I went like that for a few years in my teens. I even researched about psychological theories of why people are gay and about supposed transformation therapies to stop being homosexual. However, I noticed that most people who had participated of these therapies had developed a great sense of frustration in their lives and that the range of suicides of these patients was very high. Therefore, over time I came to accept the fact that I was born like this and it was not my fault. I was just created this way. And without actually accepting 100% at least at my 20ís I was living with the supposed certainty that being was gay was not wrong.

    However, during this last two years many "coincidences" and important situations in my life have occurred that have made my faith in God to grow quite. Especially in the last three months, I have lived some serious events that could directly relate to my sexual orientation and could be interpreted as God is calling my attention.

    I know many of you are atheists or those who believe in God are assured that if you're gay is because He made you like this. But I cannot just ignore the fact of the evil concept that The Bible has about gay people, and I need to know how to reconcile my beliefs with what I am.

    I hope you can give some advice, especially from the Christian point of view (if there are some around here) and I have lot of uncertainty.

  2. #2
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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    I am somewhat religious and Christian and have some of the same problem. I am sure that being gay is not wrong because that is how God made you. I used to believe that acting gay was wrong, but I am changing and evolving my thoughts on this and now believe that acting gay, sexually, is no more wrong than doing heterosexual sexual things that are wrong, such as sex outside of marriage. If this makes any sense. I am still trying to come to terms with my thoughts on this many years later and am interested in how other Christians will answer you. Sorry that I don't have an answer for you, but letting you know that you are not alone with this dichotomy.

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    You might want to do a search in this forum. This issue has come up myriad times and several people have offered advice.

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    I am Christian and Pansexual.... no problem with it and my Religion.
    Issues with sex are human, not spiritual/belief, related.
    Humans try to control other humans and religion is a great tool to do it.

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Here's something to ponder:

    http://www.sott.net/article/199033-W...Christian-Rite

    It shows same-sex marriages were performed by Christians long ago -- which means closer to the time of the Apostles. So the way the Bible is represented these days is not the way it seems to have been understood early on.


    And this is eminently worth watching:

    [/QUOTE]

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by ALBiMale1975 View Post
    I am Christian and Pansexual.... no problem with it and my Religion.
    Issues with sex are human, not spiritual/belief, related.
    Humans try to control other humans and religion is a great tool to do it.
    That's more than a little difficult to reconcile with either Paul or Jesus. Paul especially indicates there's a spiritual aspect.

    It's why promiscuity is condemned so roundly.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    According to God, loneliness is not good. “It is not good for a man to be alone." (Genesis 2:18)
    Loneliness is not God's plan for us. We were fashioned for community. We were "hardwired" for relationship. God wants us to, “Experience a completely fulfilling, blushingly unpredictable, emotionally empowering and recklessly romantic love.” That love requires, “Words of affirmation, quality time, receiving gifts, acts of service, and then physical touch.” (Undressed, Jason Illian,2006)

    Christ mentions that he came not only to give us life, but to have it abundantly. (John 10:10) This idea that the gift of sexuality is given and then struck down away from us as forbidden fruit is not anywhere to be found from Jesus. Sex was God's idea and design, it is very very good. There are two instances in the bible where same sex is mentioned. Moses who wrote Leviticus, and Paul who lettered Romans. Moses lived before Christ, and Paul lived after him. Christ in all of his deliberate asterisks on human life doesn't comment. But that, "you might have life, and have it abundantly." Part of the abundant life is to journey with a partner. From the four loves by C.S. Lewis this journey involves Eros. Jesus Christ does not say our experience of Eros cannot be with a man. Moses and Paul dissent. But what about Christ, his silence says it all.

    Tell your date that abundant life means to experience all of God's gifts with thanksgiving. Loving a man is one of those gifts. In the words of Apple CEO Tim Cook recently, "I consider being gay among the greatest gifts God has given me."
    "Give us true knowledge of other people in their differences from us and in their likenesses to us, patiently considering their varied lives and thoughts and circumstances." ( ~ George Ridding 1828)

  8. #8
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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by LutheranGuy View Post
    According to God, loneliness is not good. “It is not good for a man to be alone." (Genesis 2:18)
    Loneliness is not God's plan for us. We were fashioned for community. We were "hardwired" for relationship. God wants us to, “Experience a completely fulfilling, blushingly unpredictable, emotionally empowering and recklessly romantic love.” That love requires, “Words of affirmation, quality time, receiving gifts, acts of service, and then physical touch.” (Undressed, Jason Illian,2006)

    Christ mentions that he came not only to give us life, but to have it abundantly. (John 10:10) This idea that the gift of sexuality is given and then struck down away from us as forbidden fruit is not anywhere to be found from Jesus. Sex was God's idea and design, it is very very good. There are two instances in the bible where same sex is mentioned. Moses who wrote Leviticus, and Paul who lettered Romans. Moses lived before Christ, and Paul lived after him. Christ in all of his deliberate asterisks on human life doesn't comment. But that, "you might have life, and have it abundantly." Part of the abundant life is to journey with a partner. From the four loves by C.S. Lewis this journey involves Eros. Jesus Christ does not say our experience of Eros cannot be with a man. Moses and Paul dissent. But what about Christ, his silence says it all.
    But right there in Genesis God's answer to man not being alone is to create woman -- not very helpful, here, unless you can make an argument that due to our "devolution" God has extended that to either gender.

    BTW, it's not really clear what Paul is saying, especially since as far as we can so far tell, he apparently made up one of the words he employs. Translating it "homosexual" is just guessing, and badly at that, because the modern concept didn't exist back then. Given that it didn't, it is not at all unreasonable to translate it "man-fuckers" or even "man-rapers", either of which is not condemning homosexuality but at the most promiscuity but more sensibly treating others as sex objects to be used and thrown away.

    Quote Originally Posted by LutheranGuy View Post
    Tell your date that abundant life means to experience all of God's gifts with thanksgiving. Loving a man is one of those gifts. In the words of Apple CEO Tim Cook recently, "I consider being gay among the greatest gifts God has given me."
    I think you got the threads confused -- this is about relejandro, not his date.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  9. #9

    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Pope Francis has already answered you

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    But right there in Genesis God's answer to man not being alone is to create woman -- not very helpful, here, unless you can make an argument that due to our "devolution" God has extended that to either gender.
    Do not become a literal nazi. Much of the bible is allegorical. God doesn't say men cannot love other men. Only paul and moses do. Stick with Tim Cook's approach.
    "Give us true knowledge of other people in their differences from us and in their likenesses to us, patiently considering their varied lives and thoughts and circumstances." ( ~ George Ridding 1828)

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by LutheranGuy View Post
    Do not become a literal nazi. Much of the bible is allegorical. God doesn't say men cannot love other men. Only paul and moses do. Stick with Tim Cook's approach.
    I didn't take anything literally. And the second account in Genesis is certainly not "allegorical", though that's been a common way of interpreting it down through the centuries.

    I don't know of any biblical scholar or theologian named Tim Cook.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by LutheranGuy View Post
    Do not become a literal nazi. Much of the bible is allegorical.
    Welcome to the religion forum.
    ďWhy is it that we rejoice at a birth and grieve at a funeral? It is because we are not the person involved.Ē ~ Mark Twain

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    Welcome to the religion forum.
    Thanks. Some people only see so far.
    "Give us true knowledge of other people in their differences from us and in their likenesses to us, patiently considering their varied lives and thoughts and circumstances." ( ~ George Ridding 1828)

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I didn't take anything literally. And the second account in Genesis is certainly not "allegorical", though that's been a common way of interpreting it down through the centuries.

    I don't know of any biblical scholar or theologian named Tim Cook.
    Tim Cook is a theologian. He's the openly gay CEO of Apple.
    "Give us true knowledge of other people in their differences from us and in their likenesses to us, patiently considering their varied lives and thoughts and circumstances." ( ~ George Ridding 1828)

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by varnio View Post
    Pope Francis has already answered you

    Click image for larger version. 

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    So he has no problem with gays, only with people who don't believe has he does. He is still promoting a mindset of exclusion and prejudice - don't mistake his acceptance of gays as a sign of tolerance, he's just directing his intolerance elsewhere.

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    But right there in Genesis God's answer to man not being alone is to create woman -- not very helpful, here, unless you can make an argument that due to our "devolution" God has extended that to either gender.

    BTW, it's not really clear what Paul is saying, especially since as far as we can so far tell, he apparently made up one of the words he employs. Translating it "homosexual" is just guessing, and badly at that, because the modern concept didn't exist back then. Given that it didn't, it is not at all unreasonable to translate it "man-fuckers" or even "man-rapers", either of which is not condemning homosexuality but at the most promiscuity but more sensibly treating others as sex objects to be used and thrown away.


    This brings up a point about the Bible that has long perplexed me. Anachronisms. So, had God provided Adam with Steve to be Bros, watch the game, hang out, get drunk and fuck each other up the ass, we wouldn't be having this dialogue. Man:Woman copulation for procreation is a practical paradigm. If you need more Jews in an Old Testament environment, having men lie with men is not gonna make it, given artificial insemination and surrogate motherhood, etc. weren't options. Fast forward, we have 7 billion people and counting. Fucking pussy to get more of anybody is not required. Similarly, the dietary laws around shellfish, pork, etc. OK, so if you lived in the desert without refrigeration, this is real good advice. If we are to accept the Bible as the Word of God and focus in on the parts man on man butt sex as a direct way to eternal perdition, please read Proverbs. The prohibitions against mixing weaves of fabric....pages and pages of the most stupid shit you will find in print. Why aren't we all over that? Fuck, the Devil must wear Prada. We have a Book in two parts, one thousands of years old written by and for Jews in that place and time. What relevance does Leviticus have for us today? The other only a couple of thousand years old, give or take. The Good News. Redemption. Not for fags, though. Pauline Doctrine.... what's up with him, ya think? Anyway, a whole lot of what religions do in the name of Christ is not reflective of His life or message, as I have come to understand it through years of Church Teaching. Conservative tracts assure us that Christ hated faggots, too. I have never found that. He was kinda liberal, and thought lepers and prostitutes were cool, and really, really wouldn't have cared for Wall Street, OK? But fags, I don't see as he commented directly...you know, the Words of our Saviour in RED in the Bible I had as a Christian budlet. Cardinal Bernadin back in Chicago wrote a piece, "It is Christ We Preach." I asked myself then, "WTF, Joe?" It's hard to miss the disconnect there. So, the Life and Message of Christ is Eternal, and indeed a cause for Great Joy and Hope. But, I reject personal condemnation by Christians who HATE and justify it by picking and choosing from parts of a book, much of which is not relevant to contemporary culture and society.
    Last edited by opinterph; December 25th, 2014 at 12:53 PM. Reason: fixed quote tags

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by cocksucker4use View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    But right there in Genesis God's answer to man not being alone is to create woman -- not very helpful, here, unless you can make an argument that due to our "devolution" God has extended that to either gender.

    BTW, it's not really clear what Paul is saying, especially since as far as we can so far tell, he apparently made up one of the words he employs. Translating it "homosexual" is just guessing, and badly at that, because the modern concept didn't exist back then. Given that it didn't, it is not at all unreasonable to translate it "man-fuckers" or even "man-rapers", either of which is not condemning homosexuality but at the most promiscuity but more sensibly treating others as sex objects to be used and thrown away.

    This brings up a point about the Bible that has long perplexed me. Anachronisms.

    . . . .

    Conservative tracts assure us that Christ hated faggots, too. I have never found that. He was kinda liberal, and thought lepers and prostitutes were cool, and really, really wouldn't have cared for Wall Street, OK? But fags, I don't see as he commented directly...you know, the Words of our Saviour in RED in the Bible I had as a Christian budlet. Cardinal Bernadin back in Chicago wrote a piece, "It is Christ We Preach." I asked myself then, "WTF, Joe?" It's hard to miss the disconnect there. So, the Life and Message of Christ is Eternal, and indeed a cause for Great Joy and Hope. But, I reject personal condemnation by Christians who HATE and justify it by picking and choosing from parts of a book, much of which is not relevant to contemporary culture and society.
    Actually, it is relevant, just not in the way they think. It's a lesson that God cares about the intimate details of our lives. But understanding the lesson means asking why those rules for that culture, and then stepping back and asking what principles behind them apply to us, and how, in a situation that has changed drastically in two ways: this culture is not so technically deprived, and we are not a theocracy.

    Given those changes, we can learn a lot. But if we insist on being the anal fools of the sort who opposed Paul with their "The scripture says it, I believe it, and that settles it!" idiocy, we can end up in all sorts of spiritually devastating positions.


    I not infrequently think the reason many people don't like Paul is that following what he says requires serious thinking. He does not treat the scriptures the way fundamentalists do; he approaches it by seeking principles -- that's how he arrived at "By grace you are saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves -- it is the gift of God!" That example points us to do the same thing, i.e. to seek the principles. Seeking the principles is how Christians realized, after following a rather tortuous path, that slavery is not consistent with following Christ. And failure to see principles is what makes this so powerful:


    If the "God said it, I believe it, that settles it!" attitude were followed consistently, the "Dr." in that scene would never have been allowed to have the independent life she did, let alone have a broadcast show that serves a teaching function for Christians.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; December 25th, 2014 at 12:33 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  18. #18

    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    I've not read every post in this thread, but the whole point of Christianity could be summed up as a lesson in authenticity. When it comes down to it, God is a fan of us being totally honest with ourselves, others, and with Him. No pretending, no putting your best foot forward, no striving to impress; simply being 100% honest about yourself, your motives, your thoughts, everything.

    For those who are willing to be real, you will quickly learn you aren't perfect, and don't have it all together. No one does, and we should be OK about this. This should unite us all really, and is meant to unite us under God.

    The problem with many Christians today, is that they are better fit for a Christian toothpaste commercial, than they are church. Many Christians are not that different than the Pharisees in Jesus' day (which are the only people he really had contention with, btw) because they feel they are upright and perfect as long as they follow the Bible to a T. In reality they live in fear of falling from their own self-righteousness as if God would strike them down for it. A very insecure faith if you ask me.

    Still as a gay Christian, I feel I have a more rounded and wholesome understanding of the Bible than the "average" Christian. The meat and potatoes of the faith, is that Jesus loved each of us despite all of our faults and redeemed the entire human race so we could have the chance to live forever with Him. Yes the Bible isn't accepting of homosexuality, but the Bible isn't accepting of a lot of things. What God asks us to do, is to be real about our faults, and not confuse the belief of right and wrong, with our own personal value. Our value is meant to be priceless, as Jesus demonstrated, and is inherent from birth.

    Many such things, such as eating shellfish and other "unclean" food, in the Old Testament days, was meant to keep the Israelites healthy before it became easier to make "unclean" food, such as pork, healthy to eat. In terms of sex, straight people can misuse sex the same way a gay person could, which many fail to point out. I've talked to a gay nurse who is honest about some of the unhealthy factors of gay sex, but they can be prevented if one is just willing to look into it.

    I'm comfortable being a gay Christian because God doesn't see people as gay, straight, white, black, or what have you, he sees us all equally. I do believe that whoever choses to reject Him in this life, won't go to Heaven, and would be happy to discuss that more if you like, tho I feel it's a bit of a tangent at this point.
    Last edited by MrPerfectMan; December 30th, 2014 at 02:39 PM.
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  19. #19

    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    So he has no problem with gays, only with people who don't believe has he does. He is still promoting a mindset of exclusion and prejudice - don't mistake his acceptance of gays as a sign of tolerance, he's just directing his intolerance elsewhere.
    I don't think so. He couldn't do more.

    Pope Francis represents the Catholic Church and not other religions. All he says is followed by billions of people. With this words, he reduced preconception and introduced in the world more tolerance and more justice. Before him, no important church member said something similar.

    Gays are people like any others. And when the Pope recognizes this, the world becomes better.

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Of course he could do more, the FACT is that Catholic Dogma does not accept homosexuality, where exactly has the Pope refuted this?

    Just saying "be nice to the sinners..." doesn't mean you don't think they're sinners.
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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by relejandro12 View Post
    Hi guys. Iím not a very religious person, but Iíve always believed in God and Jesus. Lately, Iím having problems to reconcile my beliefs and my sexual orientation.

    Since I was a little kid, I always imagined being with a beautiful woman and forming a family with children. I imagined being a father and educating my children with joy (I still do it when I see a child). But when I started to realize I was gay, I repudiated it because I didnít want to be so. I knew it would bring complications in the future and I wanted to change.

    So I went like that for a few years in my teens. I even researched about psychological theories of why people are gay and about supposed transformation therapies to stop being homosexual. However, I noticed that most people who had participated of these therapies had developed a great sense of frustration in their lives and that the range of suicides of these patients was very high. Therefore, over time I came to accept the fact that I was born like this and it was not my fault. I was just created this way. And without actually accepting 100% at least at my 20ís I was living with the supposed certainty that being was gay was not wrong.

    However, during this last two years many "coincidences" and important situations in my life have occurred that have made my faith in God to grow quite. Especially in the last three months, I have lived some serious events that could directly relate to my sexual orientation and could be interpreted as God is calling my attention.

    I know many of you are atheists or those who believe in God are assured that if you're gay is because He made you like this. But I cannot just ignore the fact of the evil concept that The Bible has about gay people, and I need to know how to reconcile my beliefs with what I am.

    I hope you can give some advice, especially from the Christian point of view (if there are some around here) and I have lot of uncertainty.
    Well first of all the problem with you is that you are seeking the Abrahamic religions and their view of god. Yahweh Sabeoth was a very warlike, sexist and homophobic deity. He is one you best steer clear of. There are many deities that do accept LGBT people and if you are feeling that a benevolent God is trying to talk to you then it is most likely one of them. Most Pagan deities in fact have no problem with homosexuality.

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariatenebre View Post
    Well first of all the problem with you is that you are seeking the Abrahamic religions and their view of god. Yahweh Sabeoth was a very warlike, sexist and homophobic deity. He is one you best steer clear of. There are many deities that do accept LGBT people and if you are feeling that a benevolent God is trying to talk to you then it is most likely one of them. Most Pagan deities in fact have no problem with homosexuality.
    This person does not know of what she's talking about.

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    The OT is indeed very warlike, sexist, and homophobic.

    The rest of that is something you of all people shouldn't be dismissing, your god is no more valid than hers, one could easily say you don't know what you're talking about. After all, your claims to your personal deity have no more validity than anyone else's.
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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    The OT is indeed very warlike, sexist, and homophobic.

    The rest of that is something you of all people shouldn't be dismissing, your god is no more valid than hers, one could easily say you don't know what you're talking about. After all, your claims to your personal deity have no more validity than anyone else's.
    There are alternative views (which I'm sure you'll dismiss) but here it goes.

    First of all the word 'abomination' is given more weight today then I think was intended. In fact, many of the things forbidden by the Bible in OT days were because God wanted the Jews uber vigilant and healthy (for example, pork being considered unclean until the NT). When it came to morals, there were no less distinction, but the reasoning was two-fold. To show that there is actually a right and wrong way to go about things, and that it's impossible to be right all the time.

    I've talked to a nurse (who was gay and not homophobic in the least) who admits anal sex can easily cause infection if not done right, as can many other sexual acts if not careful. The anus is not really accustomed to have things shoved up it, and there are other ways to stimulate the prostate, but I digress. He recommended always using a condom and water based lube (even in a monogamous relationship). Homosexuality as an act most likely was banned for health reasons, and we can now prevent those infections to a large degree. Lust is also not a great character trait, no matter what you're orientation is, but that is also somewhat of a rabbit trail.

    As far as the war in the OT, while war is horrible, it's pretty much impossible to avoid at times. Besides the fact if we never went to war with anyone, we'd likely get run over by any tyrant who fancied taking control, many hypothesize that many of the races in the Bible (Hittites, Jebusites etc) were half human half nephilim (such as the Sons of Anak) who you might as well equate with Boko Haram of today. Also if you are going to believe in a God who is all knowing, who's to say war was not intended to prevent something even worse from happening, that none of us could know about because it was prevented?

    I realize it's much simpler to look at things as black and white, but that's just not how life works. War is not always bad, death is not always bad, and rules aren't always bad.
    Last edited by MrPerfectMan; January 16th, 2015 at 02:36 PM.
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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's more than a little difficult to reconcile with either Paul or Jesus. Paul especially indicates there's a spiritual aspect.

    It's why promiscuity is condemned so roundly.
    Jesus was Bisexual.

    Reconciled!


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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by ALBiMale1975 View Post
    Jesus was Bisexual.

    Reconciled!

    Evidence?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPerfectMan View Post
    There are alternative views (which I'm sure you'll dismiss) but here it goes.

    First of all the word 'abomination' is given more weight today then I think was intended. In fact, many of the things forbidden by the Bible in OT days were because God wanted the Jews uber vigilant and healthy (for example, pork being considered unclean until the NT). When it came to morals, there were no less distinction, but the reasoning was two-fold. To show that there is actually a right and wrong way to go about things, and that it's impossible to be right all the time.

    I've talked to a nurse (who was gay and not homophobic in the least) who admits anal sex can easily cause infection if not done right, as can many other sexual acts if not careful. The anus is not really accustomed to have things shoved up it, and there are other ways to stimulate the prostate, but I digress. He recommended always using a condom and water based lube (even in a monogamous relationship). Homosexuality as an act most likely was banned for health reasons, and we can now prevent those infections to a large degree. Lust is also not a great character trait, no matter what you're orientation is, but that is also somewhat of a rabbit trail.

    As far as the war in the OT, while war is horrible, it's pretty much impossible to avoid at times. Besides the fact if we never went to war with anyone, we'd likely get run over by any tyrant who fancied taking control, many hypothesize that many of the races in the Bible (Hittites, Jebusites etc) were half human half nephilim (such as the Sons of Anak) who you might as well equate with Boko Haram of today. Also if you are going to believe in a God who is all knowing, who's to say war was not intended to prevent something even worse from happening, that none of us could know about because it was prevented?

    I realize it's much simpler to look at things as black and white, but that's just not how life works. War is not always bad, death is not always bad, and rules aren't always bad.
    Black and white? Hmmmm, I had thought that everyone was aware of my opinion on this, guess not, so here it is.

    It matters not one dirty flying fuck what the people who wrote the bible "meant." Nope not one little itty bitty bit. The reason you are in here arguing this "misinterpretation" argument is because the legions of Christianity out there could give a fuck about that argument and the only people who'll entertain it are already convinced without having to have esoteric conversations about things two thousand years inscrutable, that are impossible to "prove" beyond one's personal agenda.

    No one knows about sense and context of classical languages, let alone metaphors or shadings of meanings because no one lived two thousand years ago. What does that mean? That means that no one can know what they "meant," the very best "scholarship" is still guessing, and it doesn't matter anyway, since no one lives two thousand years ago.

    Which is where reality kicks in. You will not convince one single Christian hater with that crap, because they interpret the bible NOW, not two thousand years ago, and in their modern interpretation they mean abomination with all the inherent modern understanding of the word we all share. This is not black and white, this is life. If you think that they are just misinformed as to what the bible really means, then knock yourself out, go talk to them about it.

    All of this argument over what the bible "really means," is just something we salve ourselves with when we don't want to look at the nasty things our religion has done to us. In the name of Christ, after all it's less hurtful to think that God doesn't really hate you and never did, isn't it.

    Luckily, secularism has largely pulled the fangs of institutional Christian repression, (if not homophobia) and Luther shattered the monopoly, so us modern queers can actually find denominations that aren't all Baptist.

    Frankly, I suspect the ancient Hebrews were just as homophobic as advertised. Stick to the Romans, murkier ground there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Evidence?
    All hippies are bisexual, I thought the 60's proved that?
    Last edited by TX-Beau; January 18th, 2015 at 02:05 PM.
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  28. #28

    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    You have a point, at the same time not everything in the Bible is uninterpretable. Sometimes it's just flat out obvious. Also, you totally overlooked my points about health, which was the main point of my post anyway.

    One a somewhat related note, there are dysfunctional aspects to almost everything. I just read a horrible article from a former contestant on the Biggest Loser who talked about the horrible lengths the show goes to per week, for weight loss and ratings. not that surprising, but weight loss and healthy living is good in and of itself, but the show's corrupted it. War was another example I used of an occasional necessary evil.

    People do good things all the time for bad reasons. As I've said before, that is human nature, but is part of the message of the Bible to me. Transparency. More important than what's right and wrong, I think life is best spent living honestly and transparently with one another.

    That would cut out a lot of bull crap in the world, lol. Intentions are far more important than actions in the Bible, and I agree. Sweep me off my feet, make all my dreams come true, but if you're not really doing it for the right reasons, then don't do it at all. Looking at the reasons people do things is far more important and revealing than what they do in my opinion. Sure no one is perfect, but we all can live a little more honestly with ourselves and one another.

    That is when sometimes I think the Bible can seem overly judgmental and people start equating that with their intrinsic value. There's lots of things that could be better about the image of the gay community (as well as the straight, black, white, fill in the blank with whatever you like). No one is above reproach.

    It's taken a long time, but I've totally reconciled my faith with my sexuality. Sure we can argue that I'm not interpreting it right, and no one really can, but I interpret it how I've mentioned above, and even if wrong, I feel like it would bring a lot more people together.
    Last edited by MrPerfectMan; January 19th, 2015 at 01:05 PM.
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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPerfectMan View Post
    You have a point, at the same time not everything in the Bible is uninterpretable. Sometimes it's just flat out obvious. Also, you totally overlooked my points about health, which was the main point of my post anyway.
    It may be hard to interpret, but if it doesn't mean what the original writers intended, it doesn't mean anything at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPerfectMan View Post
    That is when sometimes I think the Bible can seem overly judgmental and people start equating that with their intrinsic value. There's lots of things that could be better about the image of the gay community (as well as the straight, black, white, fill in the blank with whatever you like). No one is above reproach.
    Read strictly, the Bible is extremely judgmental, because it's trying to get across to us that nothing short of absolute perfection is acceptable. That's intended to trash our intrinsic value in our own eyes; indeed, a very strong argument can be made that unless your intrinsic value is zero in your own eyes, you aren't ready for a Savior.

    But the Gospel comes and tells us that our intrinsic value in our own eyes is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is our intrinsic value in God's eyes, and if we are in Christ, we have the same intrinsic value to Him as Christ does, period. A Christian can be down on himself only insofar as he isn't recognizing the work of Christ, because it's only the work of Christ that makes him valuable. Nothing an individual does or fails to do affects our value in God's eyes so long as we are in Christ.

    Thus Paul can honestly tell us that all things are lawful -- but not all are profitable/beneficial.
    Last edited by opinterph; February 6th, 2015 at 08:53 PM. Reason: fixed quote tags

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPerfectMan View Post
    You have a point, at the same time not everything in the Bible is uninterpretable. Sometimes it's just flat out obvious. Also, you totally overlooked my points about health, which was the main point of my post anyway.

    One a somewhat related note, there are dysfunctional aspects to almost everything. I just read a horrible article from a former contestant on the Biggest Loser who talked about the horrible lengths the show goes to per week, for weight loss and ratings. not that surprising, but weight loss and healthy living is good in and of itself, but the show's corrupted it. War was another example I used of an occasional necessary evil.

    People do good things all the time for bad reasons. As I've said before, that is human nature, but is part of the message of the Bible to me. Transparency. More important than what's right and wrong, I think life is best spent living honestly and transparently with one another.

    That would cut out a lot of bull crap in the world, lol. Intentions are far more important than actions in the Bible, and I agree. Sweep me off my feet, make all my dreams come true, but if you're not really doing it for the right reasons, then don't do it at all. Looking at the reasons people do things is far more important and revealing than what they do in my opinion. Sure no one is perfect, but we all can live a little more honestly with ourselves and one another.

    That is when sometimes I think the Bible can seem overly judgmental and people start equating that with their intrinsic value. There's lots of things that could be better about the image of the gay community (as well as the straight, black, white, fill in the blank with whatever you like). No one is above reproach.

    It's taken a long time, but I've totally reconciled my faith with my sexuality. Sure we can argue that I'm not interpreting it right, and no one really can, but I interpret it how I've mentioned above, and even if wrong, I feel like it would bring a lot more people together.
    Thing is, your proscriptions of gayness for public hygiene, is exactly what I'm talking about. You and everyone else who believe have made a leap of faith about your personal Bible (usually loosely informed by some mainline Protestant or Catholic opinion) that is very true to you, which is fine, but that doesn't make any of those opinions definitive. I also acknowledge that the modern and largely secular West promotes pluralism over orthodoxy, with all that that implies.

    When you mix in opinions like mine in which all of your interpretations are subjective, you get this hodgepodge, that there is no way to scripturally reconcile. I look at scripture as just literature, interesting maybe but there is no immediacy to it - it can call me an abomination, I don't give a damn; you on the other hand are looking at the implications (and damnation) of Divine Law, Kuli believes he is right in his interpretation, Baptists believe they are right - and so on endlessly. Each new era pushing newer and more "modern" interpretations. So be it, I'd far rather have happy hippie new age Christians than the Southern Baptists of my Grandmother's generation.

    There is no original Bible, the OT especially has no "origin" we can pinpoint. Somewhere in the dim mists, somewhere in the (probably) Middle East is all we know, even classical copies are arguably thousands of years derivative, the gospels are less murky, in origin, yet still copies of copies. Taking words from even classical era texts and using modern interpretations of meaning, as some kind of definitive benchmark to contradict two thousand years of much more concrete history of repression seems like wishful thinking to me.

    But then, such are the problems inherent in scripture based religions.
    Last edited by TX-Beau; January 19th, 2015 at 04:17 PM.
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  31. #31

    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    True. From what I understand the Jewish scribes copied the text not idea by idea, sentence by sentence, or even word by word, but letter by letter. So there is a higher chance of it being more like the original than someone who just copies even word for word. And there are many more copies that correlate with each other than many other ancient texts from what I understand. That alone is interesting, if nothing else.
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  32. #32

    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Of course he could do more, the FACT is that Catholic Dogma does not accept homosexuality, where exactly has the Pope refuted this?

    Just saying "be nice to the sinners..." doesn't mean you don't think they're sinners.
    In my opinion, you are right e you are not right

    Because of this dogma, Pope can't change radically that position from night to day. Step to step. He's doing the same in other issues, like divorce.

    He has changed the church and that is changing the world. In Europe I feel this.
    Last edited by varnio; January 21st, 2015 at 06:33 AM.

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by varnio View Post
    ...Because of this dogma, Pope can't change radically that position from night to day. Step to step. He's doing the same in other issues, like divorce..
    So are you channeling him or can you point us to where he's said he believes divorce and teh gey are just peachy keen?

    If you can't, I'd be interested in learning how he divinely signaled you that he disagreed with either or both status quo doctrinal positions.

    But then I'm not a Catholic, so maybe he did some kind of magical Catholic communication.
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  34. #34

    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    So are you channeling him or can you point us to where he's said he believes divorce and teh gey are just peachy keen?

    If you can't, I'd be interested in learning how he divinely signaled you that he disagreed with either or both status quo doctrinal positions.

    But then I'm not a Catholic, so maybe he did some kind of magical Catholic communication.
    He tried, in practice and not only in theory: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...fe-Bishop.html

    But yes, it's VERY difficult.

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Read strictly, the Bible is extremely judgmental, because it's trying to get across to us that nothing short of absolute perfection is acceptable. That's intended to trash our intrinsic value in our own eyes; indeed, a very strong argument can be made that unless your intrinsic value is zero in your own eyes, you aren't ready for a Savior.

    But the Gospel comes and tells us that our intrinsic value in our own eyes is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is our intrinsic value in God's eyes, and if we are in Christ, we have the same intrinsic value to Him as Christ does, period.
    It makes me sad that there are enough people to believe this to constitute a religion. What a terrible and predatory falsehood.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by varnio View Post
    He tried, in practice and not only in theory: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...fe-Bishop.html

    But yes, it's VERY difficult.
    No where in that does is say he disagreed with current Catholic doctrine. All it says is that he had a setback to being nice to sinners - in an article written by an ANGLICAN.

    Cardinals based in Rome showed Ďlack of awarenessí of what life is really like over homosexuality and divorce, says Anglican delegate at the Catholic Synod of Bishops..,.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...fe-Bishop.html

    Try an actual Catholic source next time.
    Last edited by TX-Beau; January 21st, 2015 at 08:35 PM.
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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    ...Pope Francis is a conservative who is anti-gay marriage and anti-gay adoption. He has described same-sex marriage as the work of the devil and a “destructive attack on God’s plan.” He has also said that gay adoption is a form of discrimination against children...
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2869221.html

    It seems all is not as it seems in the new Vaticatopia.
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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    "The crux of the matter, it seems to me, is simply that the Bible has no sexual ethic. There is no biblical sex ethic. The Bible knows only a love ethic, which is constantly being brought to bear on whatever sexual mores are dominant in any given country, or culture, or period."

    That is from Walter Wink's booklet on Homosexuality and the Bible. It was written in the 90s and is a bit dated now, because he was speaking to those who were not open to LGBTQ folks in the early days of 'don't ask don't tell'.

    http://www.religion-online.org/showa...asp?title=1265

    There are many more books and articles on Biblical scholarship that speak in a more contemporary voice, but this one has historic value as it was the booklet that really opened dialog in the Church, and began the new understandings that the Church is moving towards.

    In our own country, the United Church of Christ, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Episcopal Church, and the Presbyterian Church ordain LBGTQ people. (There is another major mainline that I cannot recall at the moment.) The Moravians are moving in that direction. The Disciples of Christ resist forbidding it. Marriage equality is supported by the four church bodies I named - the ELCA and Episcopalians are working on liturgies now, the UCC has forcefully advocated for marriage equality for a long time. The UCC sued North Carolina for passing a law forbidding clergy from performing same gender marriages.

    Certainly one can name church bodies that resist understanding the equality of all people, but it seems that is so much harder to name the church bodies that are open. It is the Spirit moving in the Church. Many smaller non mainline church bodies welcome an ordain LGBTQ people who are called; independent catholic and Old Catholic church bodies in the US were established because of the Roman Catholic Church's stance on gender and sexuality issues. The Metropolitan Church was established for the same reasons with a more protestant flavor. In other church bodies, there are congregations and regional jurisdictions that are pressing their national church bodies to get on the right side of this.

    Internationally there are many church bodies, especially in Canada, England, Australia, and Europe, which are on the right side of orientation, gender, and sexuality issues. Africa not so much. It will happen.

    The various church bodies in the world are not monolithic. To claim that Christian church bodies reject compatibility between Christianity and orientations that are not heterosexual, that would be untrue. Judaism has its own parallels as do other faith traditions.

    Obviously almost all of us have been hurt by things in the past. Some have worked very hard to open the doors to understanding, acceptance, equality. Biblical understandings have been questioned and filled with new insights. Theology has been re-stated, inclusivity under the ethic of love has been lifted up far more extensively.

    Being Christian and being LGBTQ are core identities and compatible, in answer to the original post.

    The question of Francis cannot be answered with absolutist statements. He has struggled with his own evolving understandings in many areas. He took some regrettable positions as archbishop of Argentina; his current position, being global, has expanded his pastoral ministry. He accomplished a lot of conversations within the Roman Catholic community with his statements. He is the leader of a church body that does not understand the calling of ordained ministry as being open to all of the baptized. He may not be at that point his own self. He is managing within his church body the beginnings of the conversations that have resulted in change and inclusivity in other church bodies. He cannot be said to be 'for' or 'against' anything, but he has gotten the conversation broadly extended. The local permanent deacon in the conservative area where I live has spoken of how Francis shocked people with some of his statements and have begun reconsidering their own closed understandings. He is doing perhaps all he can do, and, perhaps as the Spirit allows, he will do more, but in the Roman Catholic Church change comes slowly; it is a global church which has a block of theology that needs be reconsidered, and that is not a quick task.

    For those who want now, and I am one of them, there are the Christian bodies that I have named that are there, now. For those who expect everyone in the Church to be on the same page, now, that isn't going happen. The Church is not monolithic in its earthy expressions and just as we see varieties of opinions, understandings, and life experiences here within the gay male community. We are not of one understanding and opinion on everything; nor is the Church. The Church universal is moving in these regards. There are places now for those who seek the sanction and sanctuary of the Church. There will be more.

    For those who wish to live in the sins of the Church, I will not argue because that tends to go nowhere. It is akin to accepting or not accepting the sins of your nation and ethnic heritage. At the root of evil is sin and as we are sinful people in a sinful world, evil happens and sometimes we justify it we slap on approving labels of nation, state, ethnicity, a faith tradition. It is all wrong. Accepting our past and current wrongs can give us grounds to point fingers, or, it can call forth a righteous anger, repentance, and commitment to going forward with justice, equality, inclusion, as God has called us (for those who have a consciousness of God; for those who do not have a god-consciousness, there is an integrity and call of humanism, in all its secular forms, to move forward equally for justice, etc., and we ought to be doing so together, accepting each other, as humans in a world where there is much work to be done).

    As I said, being a Christian and being LGBTQ, there is one-ness. We confess and teach that we are made in the image of God. God is not a gender or orientation. God is love, and thus, whatever piece of that image we exist in, we are called to love.

  39. #39

    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    God doesn't forbid being gay but rather sinning.It is fine to get atrracted to the same sex but do not sin.It is the sin that God hates.It is a comment from someone that i find logical.I hope that helps. Take care and pray always

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by JebLeon View Post
    God doesn't forbid being gay but rather sinning.It is fine to get atrracted to the same sex but do not sin.It is the sin that God hates.It is a comment from someone that i find logical.I hope that helps. Take care and pray always
    So god makes you want to suck cock then condemns you for it? Nice.

    Sounds exactly like being gay is sinning. There is nothing "logical" about any of that.

    I don't think that word means what you think it means...
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  41. #41

    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    It only makes sense if you truly believe in God(the king) and His peace.A king can make rules whenever he wants for his people to fit in his kingdom.It maybe very difficult for some but if you have the heart to acknowledge Him, you will be able to understand and wont worry because you would know that He will guide you in this journey.People tend to oppose because of their desires that violate the law, so they become self-righteous and try to convince themselves and others the "right" thing.When in fact they are just trying to satisfy their minds and make themselves believe that it is "right". But again, we must be reminded that the King has given Laws and we must obey, regardless of what we think.

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by JebLeon View Post
    It only makes sense if you truly believe in God(the king) and His peace.A king can make rules whenever he wants for his people to fit in his kingdom.It maybe very difficult for some but if you have the heart to acknowledge Him, you will be able to understand and wont worry because you would know that He will guide you in this journey.People tend to oppose because of their desires that violate the law, so they become self-righteous and try to convince themselves and others the "right" thing.When in fact they are just trying to satisfy their minds and make themselves believe that it is "right". But again, we must be reminded that the King has given Laws and we must obey, regardless of what we think.
    SO, god is arbitrary AND cruel, and we need to shut the fuck up and deal?
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  43. #43
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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    ^^ Maybe Plato was right.

    Given a religious framework in which to reason, it's frightening what people will come up with.
    Last edited by Jacquemar; February 6th, 2015 at 12:55 PM.

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by geelion View Post
    God is within you, an essential part of you so any orientation is irrelevant, God is already there. Forget the scholars who quote the bible, just read it for yourself, but always remember He is an integral part of you whatever. You will be guided, if you listen. Be open not closed.
    If he reads the Bible, he'll learn that your opening statement is wrong.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  45. #45
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If he reads the Bible, he'll learn that your opening statement is wrong.
    I often wonder why people assume that those of us who aren't Christians weren't raised as Christians.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by geelion View Post
    Kulindhar please read my second sentence
    So your advice boils down to reading the Bible while believing it's wrong. The very approach of reading it for yourself and not listening to "scholars" and getting guidance is 100% contrary to the Bible, because it says you don't get to interpret by yourself. There are no promises of getting it right of you operate on your own.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    I often wonder why people assume that those of us who aren't Christians weren't raised as Christians.
    I don't think I've ever met anyone who became an agnostic or atheist who was ever really raised as a Christian -- mostly they were raised to believe really stupid things that aren't in the Bible and many of which are contrary to the Bible, in fundamentalist or law-oriented churches that believed deep down that thinking is a bad thing.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  48. #48
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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I don't think I've ever met anyone who became an agnostic or atheist who was ever really raised as a Christian -- mostly they were raised to believe really stupid things that aren't in the Bible and many of which are contrary to the Bible, in fundamentalist or law-oriented churches that believed deep down that thinking is a bad thing.
    No true Scotsman - heard this many times before. Oh, they were never really a TRUE christian, if they were, they would still be christian. And there are plenty of stupid things in the bible that really stupid things not in the bible is hardly necessary to turn people away from the religion.

  49. #49
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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Evidence?
    The Bible, DUH!

  50. #50
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    Re: Being Christian and gay at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Love me 2 View Post
    This person does not know of what she's talking about.
    Actually Mikey I do know quite a bit about the Abrahamic religions and unlike you I don't sugar coat them. You basically have said numerous times before that you believe that gay sex is a sin and you must deny your sexuality in order to be spiritually good which I have stated before isn't healthy psychologically and you even defended and promoted patriarchy and stated you would not allow a Woman in authority over you. [Text: Removed]

    Honestly Mikey people like you are typical in the Catholic Church. My best friend who is an Asatruar has a "friend" and I use that term very loosely who is gay. At first he flirted with Wicca and then left after he thought he summoned "Wicca demons." Then he went to the Catholic Church. However not only is he not celibate but he is having a sexual relationship with a fellow priest. Not only that but this gay priest says that nearly all of the priests there are gay and are out fucking but the thing is that if you are too open or if you are found out these religious hypocrites with be the first to turn on you. Another fact is that my father while he was busy out fathering illegitimate offspring got the clap from a Catholic Nun. So it clear this whole denial of sex thing and refusal to use condoms dosen't work for anyone.
    Last edited by opinterph; February 25th, 2015 at 03:07 PM. Reason: no flame zone

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