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  1. #1
    Dejavudoo
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    Israeli/Palestinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    It now appears the Palestinian teen murdered in revenge for the three Israeli teen murders was burned alive: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...ng-to-official

    The tinderbox that is the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is again heating up.

    What odds do you place on it to become a regional flare up?

    Is there any viable solution?

    Please don't bother placing one-sided blame: that's been tried.

    Discuss.

  2. #2

    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Is they're ever a time that they're not going at it? Frankly, I'm not worried about another "regional flare up". Even the oil lords are starting to realize no one buys into the whole "This Israeli/Palestinian thing could set the whole Middle East on fire!!!" propaganda anymore. The cost of gas is actually going down.
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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin View Post
    The cost of gas is actually going down.
    Where?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    It seems the Israeli government threw all its resources into finding and arresting the individuals responsible for killing the Palestinian teen. The suspects are ultra-nationalist and the Israeli government and public is soundly denouncing them.

    “We have strong suspicions that there are nationalistic motives behind these crimes,” he said on “Fox News Sunday.” “The prime minister said he was going to bring the perpetrators to justice very quickly and he has.”

    If the suspects are Jews and are prosecuted for the crimes, they will not be hailed as heroes in Israel, Dermer said. That contrasts, he said, with the heroic treatment Palestinians have given to terrorists.

    Dermer said he had no update on the investigation into the slaying of the Israeli teens, found buried in a field in the West Bank, that ignited the recent tensions.

    “We hope that the Palestinians will treat that crime with the seriousness that my prime minister treated this crime of the Arab boy,” Dermer said. “If the Palestinian leadership would treat it in the same way, then maybe we could get faster to a good outcome of this investigation.”
    Israel: 'A number' of suspects arrested in Palestinian teen's death

    So just what is the Palestinian response to the Israeli teens murders?
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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    You forgot the Israeli outrages.

    Nuke them.

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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    It think its safe to say that after 60 some odd years of hate filled violence and death, there is a fair share of outrages on both sides. It how they react to the outrages that is telling.
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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Palestinians celebrate their killers.... most Israelis deplore theirs. When have the Palestinians EVER demanded accountability from their leaders, or been led to anything but misery? Don't think I can find ANY instance where they would go for a peaceful reconciliation with Israel. I will deplore the brutality of some police and military, any inhumanity and racism from Israelis. I wholeheartedly oppose the expansionist settlement policy of Netanyahu and his bandits. But why are they the ones when they have worked for peace, lifted more than a finger to get a two state solution realized? What did Arafat do, long rot his demonic soul? What does Abbas or any of them do? We KNOW full well what Hamas does.
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  8. #8
    Dejavudoo
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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    In the words Shakespeare put in the mouth of the Prince, "all are punish'd."

    Israel has fanned contempt as she continually grabs more and more land in defiance of her promises and international commitments.

    Palestine reaps blood for her blind hatred of her Israeli oppressors.

    They are like the Irish and the English, but have had less time to burn out their hatred since the establishment of Israel has been most recent compared to the conquest of Ireland by the English.

    I have no Apocalyptic delusions of what a regional eruption would mean, but that doesn't mean we won't see a limited one.

    The price of gas is falling inevitably as the U.S. continues fracking and threatens OPEC by approaching energy exportation. I sat in a Jewish synagogue less than a year ago as a guest at a men's meeting. The speaker was a New Mexican oil & gas scientist, and he noted both the large find off the coast of Israel as well as the effect of fracking, and predicted the coming drop in gasoline prices.
    Last edited by Dejavudoo; July 6th, 2014 at 05:22 PM.

  9. #9

    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Where?
    It's nothing particularly dramatic, but gas in my area has actually been dropping by a couple cents the past few weeks. I'm just saying no one really buys into the whole Middle East-Israel/Palestine-OMG scenarios anymore.
    Last edited by Vitamin; July 7th, 2014 at 02:00 PM.
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  10. #10

    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    The price of gas is falling inevitably as the U.S. continues fracking and threatens OPEC by approaching energy exportation. I sat in a Jewish synagogue less than a year ago as a guest at a men's meeting. The speaker was a New Mexican oil & gas scientist, and he noted both the large find off the coast of Israel as well as the effect of fracking, and predicted the coming drop in gasoline prices.
    I might believe that, except (a) current plans are to export the oil to other countries and (b) even if we had all the oil in the world in USA it still wouldn't drop gas prices by much because of our inefficient refinery capacity.
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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    It is quite troubling...
    How about they both stop murdering civilians on both sides of the conflict and act like adults and work out their differences?
    I'm so sick of innocent civilians, on both sides of this and many other conflicts across the globe, being killed by missiles launched by governments and/or separatist groups.

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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    ...The tinderbox that is the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is again heating up.

    What odds do you place on it to become a regional flare up?
    Honestly, it's probably the wrong way to view the Middle East. What just happened was the end of a few quiet years in the midst of centuries of endless genocides.
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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    I am utterly shocked at a new form of suicide that seems to be going on in Gaza. At first I wondered if the stories were hype and propaganda but both came from reporters in Gaza interviewing Palestinian witnesses and both came from news outlets I wouldn't suspect of heavy pro Israeli bias. One was the BBC, I think the other was NPR but I'm not sure now.

    It seems the Israelis are trying to reduce the civilian casualties in their missile attacks, they are calling the houses of Hamas militants they are targeting if they have the phone number and warning the civilians to evacuate before the attack. Then the attack is proceeded by a small rocket without a warhead that causes a loud impact on the roof but does little damage. The Gazans are calling this warning shot 'tapping on the roof'. In both stories, the reporters spoke with the family members in the house and the neighbors confirming that they received the warning and got out. But in both cases as soon as the warning shot landed a group of young men rushed into the house and onto the roof supposedly to defy the Israelis. Needless to say most of them are killed or injured by the armed follow up missiles.
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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    The First Lady couldn't have said it better.



    And the beat goes on...

    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Good clarification of the difference between a real martyr and a murder.

    They really reaching back that far to justify the bigotry?
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Good clarification of the difference between a real martyr and a murder.

    They really reaching back that far to justify the bigotry?
    Yes. There is no translation in either Hebrew or Arabic for statute of limitations.

    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    They really reaching back that far to justify the bigotry?
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    Yes. There is no translation in either Hebrew or Arabic for statute of limitations.
    If you live in the middle east for a while, you begin to realize how good it is that people in western countries have such terrible memories.

    Ask someone from the US what they had for breakfast yesterday and you'll probably get a blank look as they struggle to remember.

    Ask someone in the middle east what they had for breakfast yesterday and you'll get a story about how their ancestor was driven off their land a thousand years ago by some group of people that you've probably never even heard of.

    It's never really about religion- after all, these groups are all worshiping the same god. It's about people who live in the past because they have such bleak prospects for a future.
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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Real estate is at the heart of the conflict. The Palestinians had it, the Jews took it and now there is no equitable way to fix it. By displacing and condemning generations of Palestinians to the deprivations of a ghetto, Israel has engendered the hatred of the Palestinians. Israelis are understandably belligerent in defending themselves from the Palestinians, regardless of their motivation. There have been so many attempts to broker a lasting peace, but they always fall apart. Whatever Israel does, we are financing it, as it has consistently been at the top of US foreign aid recipients. Almost all the $3Billion annually is for military aid. Anything short of applause and cheering about this is labeled "antisemitic" and quickly put down. It is not only the strong US Jewish Lobby that drives our policy and support, but the Conservative Right Evangelicals, as well. Israel has to exist for the Second Coming to play out per Scripture, even though it doesn't end well for the Jews, of course. Hence we are politically committed to Israel, no matter what.

  19. #19
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Why Arafat refused a peace deal that would have laid International peacekeepers between the two parties no one can ever know.

    The more Palestinians refuse to simply live with jews then the more this seems like a proxy Iran v Israel war with Palestinians as lackies. On the other side of things, Israelis seem to be constantly expanding with settlements. If the Israeli government was serious about granting Palestinians a state then they would stop the settlements by not defending them.

    It is truly fucked up BUT if the whole mantra of the region is whose ancestors where there first then the Palestinians MUST realize that they are immigrants to the region from the northern Mediterranean countries and the Jews were in Jerusalem long before the philistines set foot.
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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Why Arafat refused a peace deal that would have laid International peacekeepers between the two parties no one can ever know.

    The more Palestinians refuse to simply live with jews then the more this seems like a proxy Iran v Israel war with Palestinians as lackies. On the other side of things, Israelis seem to be constantly expanding with settlements. If the Israeli government was serious about granting Palestinians a state then they would stop the settlements by not defending them.

    It is truly fucked up BUT if the whole mantra of the region is whose ancestors where there first then the Palestinians MUST realize that they are immigrants to the region from the northern Mediterranean countries and the Jews were in Jerusalem long before the philistines set foot.
    My great grandparents were from Norway. Don't think it would score me a condo in Oslo.

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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Why Arafat refused a peace deal that would have laid International peacekeepers between the two parties no one can ever know.
    That is one is simple. Look at what happened to previous parties to peace treaties with Israel: Anwar Sadat: assassinated 6 October 1981, Menachem Begin: assassinated 10 October 1983.

    There's still some question today about whether Arafat's death was the result of poisoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by cocksucker4use View Post
    Real estate is at the heart of the conflict. The Palestinians had it, the Jews took it and now there is no equitable way to fix it.
    Well, this is an example of the 'what did you have for breakfast yesterday' phenomenon. "Palestinians" never had this land. It was held by the Ottomans/Byzantines, Egyptians and Syrians before the British took over the area. But this is what happens when you're on the losing side in two world Wars.

    Here's the perspective on who "owns" the land compliments of Wikipedia:
    Situated at a strategic location between Egypt, Syria and Arabia, and the birthplace of Judaism and Christianity, the region has a long and tumultuous history as a crossroads for religion, culture, commerce, and politics. The region has been controlled by numerous different peoples, including Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, the Sunni Arab Caliphates, the Shia Fatimid Caliphate, Crusaders, Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans, the British and modern Israelis and Palestinians. Modern archaeologists and historians of the region refer to their field of study as Syro-Palestinian archaeology.


    ^This is why everyone considers it "their land*" and the wars over a pretty barren, shitty part of the world will outlast us all.

    *We say "land" when many times, the battle is really over access to water- either via springs, rivers, seas or the Mediterranean.
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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by cocksucker4use View Post
    Real estate is at the heart of the conflict. The Palestinians had it, the Jews took it and now there is no equitable way to fix it. By displacing and condemning generations of Palestinians to the deprivations of a ghetto, Israel has engendered the hatred of the Palestinians. Israelis are understandably belligerent in defending themselves from the Palestinians, regardless of their motivation. There have been so many attempts to broker a lasting peace, but they always fall apart. Whatever Israel does, we are financing it, as it has consistently been at the top of US foreign aid recipients. Almost all the $3Billion annually is for military aid. Anything short of applause and cheering about this is labeled "antisemitic" and quickly put down. It is not only the strong US Jewish Lobby that drives our policy and support, but the Conservative Right Evangelicals, as well. Israel has to exist for the Second Coming to play out per Scripture, even though it doesn't end well for the Jews, of course. Hence we are politically committed to Israel, no matter what.
    Actually the Allies took it and the UN gave it to the Jews but why sweat the details. They actually gave land to the Palestinians too but they have consistently failed to build a state on it. There was an interesting article I read yesterday that compared the Palestinians and the Kurds in Iraq, both displaced peoples who are deserving of a state. It was quite illuminating in my opinion.
    Is Hamas Trying to Get Gazans Killed?
    In 2005, the Palestinians of Gaza, free from their Israeli occupiers, could have taken a lesson from the Kurds -- and from David Ben-Gurion, the principal Israeli state-builder -- and created the necessary infrastructure for eventual freedom. Gaza is centrally located between two large economies, those of Israel and Egypt. Europe is just across the Mediterranean. Gaza could have easily attracted untold billions in economic aid.

    The Israelis did not impose a blockade on Gaza right away. That came later, when it became clear that Palestinian groups were considering using their newly liberated territory as a launching pad for attacks. In the days after withdrawal, the Israelis encouraged Gaza’s development. A group of American Jewish donors paid $14 million for 3,000 greenhouses left behind by expelled Jewish settlers and donated them to the Palestinian Authority. The greenhouses were soon looted and destroyed, serving, until today, as a perfect metaphor for Gaza’s wasted opportunity.
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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    I read that article, Stardreamer and it hit home the fiction that Israel(which certainly has done some very questionable things, largely out of frustration which deserve severe criticism)is responsible for the Palestinians' plight. They have failed to show the responsibility and discipline required to govern a state for their own people. Abba Eban, the late great Labor Party Israeli foreign minister and statesman once famously remarked that the Palestinians never failed an opportunity to fail an opportunity. Gaza would have been a great experiment for a future Palestinian state especially with all the help they were getting in the early days. Israel REMOVED Jewish settlers in Gaza... greenhouses to grow crops being destroyed by Hamas thugs proved it was never about independence but hatred. The Kurds have proven they deserve a state, the Palestinians have proven nothing... the Kurds were willing to stop the revolutionary nonsense and get to work building an infrastructure. They are at the point right now even their once loathed rival Turkey will likely accept if Iraq breaks up as inevitable a Kurdish state, and is working with them to keep their relationship stable. The Palestinians have grown only into their pre-adolescent stage regarding relating with Israel with Fatah in the West Bank, but still are mere infants relating to Gaza... Hamas has never shown any political shrewdness or intelligence whatsoever and deserves to be shunned until they learn that they have to behave as responsible adults or statehood will never and SHOULD never come otherwise.
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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Why Arafat refused a peace deal that would have laid International peacekeepers between the two parties no one can ever know.

    The more Palestinians refuse to simply live with jews then the more this seems like a proxy Iran v Israel war with Palestinians as lackies. On the other side of things, Israelis seem to be constantly expanding with settlements. If the Israeli government was serious about granting Palestinians a state then they would stop the settlements by not defending them.

    It is truly fucked up BUT if the whole mantra of the region is whose ancestors where there first then the Palestinians MUST realize that they are immigrants to the region from the northern Mediterranean countries and the Jews were in Jerusalem long before the philistines set foot.
    Palestinians are actually a very diverse group of people with different hair, eye, and skin colors, just like Jews. Many of them have European like features and even blonde hair.

    My good friend's parents (who both claim themselves as Palestinians) were actually born in Morocco.

    So this BS about one group being more native to the land than the other is, like I said, bullshit.

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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    It now appears the Palestinian teen murdered in revenge for the three Israeli teen murders was burned alive: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...ng-to-official

    Please don't bother placing one-sided blame: that's been tried.

    Discuss.
    Regardless of what I or anyone thinks of whether or not Israel's response is proportionate or not, I KNOW for a fact that if Hamas put an end to the rocket strikes, that this small war right now would not be happening. No pun intended, but it's not rocket science.

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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    I read that article, Stardreamer and it hit home the fiction that Israel(which certainly has done some very questionable things, largely out of frustration which deserve severe criticism)is responsible for the Palestinians' plight. They have failed to show the responsibility and discipline required to govern a state for their own people. Abba Eban, the late great Labor Party Israeli foreign minister and statesman once famously remarked that the Palestinians never failed an opportunity to fail an opportunity. Gaza would have been a great experiment for a future Palestinian state especially with all the help they were getting in the early days. Israel REMOVED Jewish settlers in Gaza... greenhouses to grow crops being destroyed by Hamas thugs proved it was never about independence but hatred. The Kurds have proven they deserve a state, the Palestinians have proven nothing... the Kurds were willing to stop the revolutionary nonsense and get to work building an infrastructure. They are at the point right now even their once loathed rival Turkey will likely accept if Iraq breaks up as inevitable a Kurdish state, and is working with them to keep their relationship stable. The Palestinians have grown only into their pre-adolescent stage regarding relating with Israel with Fatah in the West Bank, but still are mere infants relating to Gaza... Hamas has never shown any political shrewdness or intelligence whatsoever and deserves to be shunned until they learn that they have to behave as responsible adults or statehood will never and SHOULD never come otherwise.
    I remember several years back some reporter talking with merchants in Gaza. Any attempt to open a shop for repair or manufacturing pretty much is a losing proposition because Hamas will come beating down your door to take over the facility to build rocket parts. And since Hamas is the effective government there is noone to prevent this.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    ... The Kurds have proven they deserve a state, the Palestinians have proven nothing... the Kurds were willing to stop the revolutionary nonsense and get to work building an infrastructure. They are at the point right now even their once loathed rival Turkey will likely accept if Iraq breaks up as inevitable a Kurdish state, and is working with them to keep their relationship stable...
    The Kurds appear to be rational actors only because they are in the midst of irrational actors in Iraq. And they're now sitting on a big reserve of oil in northern Iraq that several countries want to buy.

    If you go back to the 70s-80s, the Kurds were considered terrorists. Kurdist separatists ran a bombing campaign against Turkey that has continued into the current century.

    It's amusing that the US often says, "We don't negotiate with terrorists" but now US companies have added a footnote of "*unless they have oil reserves that we want".


    Quote Originally Posted by nafhoosier View Post
    Palestinians are actually a very diverse group of people with different hair, eye, and skin colors, just like Jews. Many of them have European like features and even blonde hair.
    But repeated genetic studies have shown them to be indistinguishable from Jews. Genetically, the people of the Levant and Israel/Palestine are the same- regardless of their religion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    ...And since Hamas is the effective government there is noone to prevent this.
    Hamas and Hezbollah have a lot of money. They have subparts that function like Catholic charities. Having them in charge is a weird mix of terrorism, charitable services and theocracy. And they've proven themselves to be equally inept at all three.
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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    The Kurds though have long given up achieving independence through terrorism. Israel has no oil(tremendous gas reserves though offshore is a very recent development that have the possibility to help both Israel and Lebanon IF they would work together) The Kurds have at least worked to prove they can effectively govern themselves and are reasonably tolerant and secular) ... I'm talking mainly about the Kurds of northern Iraq, however Kurds may have acted as terrorists in the past to achieve independence it's not the way the present Kurdish situation has evolved and Turkey has even become friendlier to Iraq.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The Kurds though have long given up achieving independence through terrorism. Israel has no oil(tremendous gas reserves though offshore is a very recent development that have the possibility to help both Israel and Lebanon IF they would work together) The Kurds have at least worked to prove they can effectively govern themselves and are reasonably tolerant and secular) ... I'm talking mainly about the Kurds of northern Iraq, however Kurds may have acted as terrorists in the past to achieve independence it's not the way the present Kurdish situation has evolved and Turkey has even become friendlier to Iraq.
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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    The Kurds though have long given up achieving independence through terrorism. .
    Long ago as in the past couple of years?

    The only reason you're seeing a thaw in the relations between the Kurds and Ankara is that Erogan needs the votes to continue his Islamist agenda in Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saucy
    ..and Turkey has even become friendlier to Iraq
    Turkey has always had good relations with Iraq- it's a major source of oil for them. And before the chill in US-Turkey relations that happened with the second Iraq war, Turkey was often the intermediary between the US and Iraq.

    The feelings of Turks toward the Kurds in Turkey is mixed. The older people who went through the terrorist bombings haven't forgotten (those long-term middle eastern memories again). And the skirmishes in southeastern Turkey between the Turkish military and the PKK really hasn't stopped. Erdogan needs votes from Anatolia which means concessions to the Kurds but the relationship is very tenuous.
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    Re: Israeli/Palestinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Good clarification of the difference between a real martyr and a murder.

    They really reaching back that far to justify the bigotry?
    It's a habit in that part of the world. There are people still pissed at the Greeks for following Alexander the Great to trample all their countries -- and they can take you to where the battles were and tell how they happened.

    Though it's more a result of inbred tribalism and poverty than nationality; it happens in Europe, the US, and all across the globe. I think these folks are just the masters at it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Israeli/Palestinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by cocksucker4use View Post
    Real estate is at the heart of the conflict. The Palestinians had it, the Jews took it and now there is no equitable way to fix it. By displacing and condemning generations of Palestinians to the deprivations of a ghetto, Israel has engendered the hatred of the Palestinians. Israelis are understandably belligerent in defending themselves from the Palestinians, regardless of their motivation. There have been so many attempts to broker a lasting peace, but they always fall apart. Whatever Israel does, we are financing it, as it has consistently been at the top of US foreign aid recipients. Almost all the $3Billion annually is for military aid. Anything short of applause and cheering about this is labeled "antisemitic" and quickly put down. It is not only the strong US Jewish Lobby that drives our policy and support, but the Conservative Right Evangelicals, as well. Israel has to exist for the Second Coming to play out per Scripture, even though it doesn't end well for the Jews, of course. Hence we are politically committed to Israel, no matter what.
    Another angle to that aid is that the US (supposedly) gets all the latest Israeli military research free, and they churn out a lot of it.

    In a way, the US has made Israel a tool for testing military hardware. It used to be against Soviet military hardware; now it's Russian and Chinese. The Middle East is today's version of the Spanish Civil War, where everyone gets to test their latest toys without risking their own people. For that reason none of the major arms-supplying nations really truly want the situation solved; they've got a perpetual laboratory just too convenient to give up.

    And that makes the conflict a condemnation of all mankind, because we're still in a barbaric condition of seeing force as a legitimate method to resolve things.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Israeli/Palestinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by KaraBulut View Post
    That is one is simple. Look at what happened to previous parties to peace treaties with Israel: Anwar Sadat: assassinated 6 October 1981, Menachem Begin: assassinated 10 October 1983.

    There's still some question today about whether Arafat's death was the result of poisoning.



    Well, this is an example of the 'what did you have for breakfast yesterday' phenomenon. "Palestinians" never had this land. It was held by the Ottomans/Byzantines, Eqyptians and Syrians before the British took over the area. But this is what happens when you're on the losing side in two world Wars.

    Here's the perspective on who "owns" the land compliments of Wikipedia:



    ^This is why everyone considers it "their land*" and the wars over a pretty barren, shitty part of the world will outlast us all.

    *We say "land" when many times, the battle is really over access to water- either via springs, rivers, seas or the Mediterranean.
    "Land" also means "strategic location", the strategy varying according to the powers involved. As an example, Parthia had no illusion that the land itself was terribly useful, but for them it would have been access to the Mediterranean and a physical wedge into the Roman Empire, disrupting Rome's logistics and communications.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Israeli/Palestinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    I read that article, Stardreamer and it hit home the fiction that Israel(which certainly has done some very questionable things, largely out of frustration which deserve severe criticism)is responsible for the Palestinians' plight. They have failed to show the responsibility and discipline required to govern a state for their own people. Abba Eban, the late great Labor Party Israeli foreign minister and statesman once famously remarked that the Palestinians never failed an opportunity to fail an opportunity. Gaza would have been a great experiment for a future Palestinian state especially with all the help they were getting in the early days. Israel REMOVED Jewish settlers in Gaza... greenhouses to grow crops being destroyed by Hamas thugs proved it was never about independence but hatred. The Kurds have proven they deserve a state, the Palestinians have proven nothing... the Kurds were willing to stop the revolutionary nonsense and get to work building an infrastructure. They are at the point right now even their once loathed rival Turkey will likely accept if Iraq breaks up as inevitable a Kurdish state, and is working with them to keep their relationship stable. The Palestinians have grown only into their pre-adolescent stage regarding relating with Israel with Fatah in the West Bank, but still are mere infants relating to Gaza... Hamas has never shown any political shrewdness or intelligence whatsoever and deserves to be shunned until they learn that they have to behave as responsible adults or statehood will never and SHOULD never come otherwise.
    Interesting points. The real difference between the Kurds and Hamas, though, is that they have two different uses to the great powers: one has shown it can be a stabilizing influence, and the other, well, its backers don't want it to be a stabilizing influence.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Israeli/Palestinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by KaraBulut View Post
    Hamas and Hezbollah have a lot of money. They have subparts that function like Catholic charities. Having them in charge is a weird mix of terrorism, charitable services and theocracy. And they've proven themselves to be equally inept at all three.
    Nothing weird about it -- it's tribalism.

    So is organized crime, at least in the godfather/mafia variety.

    And these groups seem to have mastered the worst of both worlds while stumbling at the rest.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Israeli/Palestinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    Yes. There is no translation in either Hebrew or Arabic for statute of limitations.
    Chok hahityashnut... literally "law of obsolescence"

    Quote Originally Posted by KaraBulut View Post

    ^This is why everyone considers it "their land*" and the wars over a pretty barren, shitty part of the world will outlast us all.
    And wouldn't you know it, both Palestinians and Jews descend from the original Canaanites.
    Last edited by Alnitak; July 16th, 2014 at 04:55 PM.

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    Re: Israeli/Palestinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    You forgot the Israeli outrages.

    Nuke them.
    I just noticed my thread title is a miss. I meant to type "Israeli/Palestinian barbarism." I meant the thread to be about both sides.

    Please notice that in my OP I did word it that way.

    Apologies for the blunder. I was hurried before leaving for work that day and didn't proof it adequately. I wish we could edit thread titles after the fact.

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    Re: Israeli/Palestinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Jews descend from the original Canaanites.
    So the people of Ur were considered descendants of Canaa?

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    Re: Israeli/Palestinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by KaraBulut View Post
    Honestly, it's probably the wrong way to view the Middle East. What just happened was the end of a few quiet years in the midst of centuries of endless genocides.
    Conceded.

    The sad part is, aside from the Christian Fundamentalists who are no doubt using this most recent escalation to fuel their delusions of a coming Apocalypse (which saves them from having to address the necessity of joining the modern world), the rest of us are growing jaded to the cycle of constant war in the MidEast.

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    Re: Israeli/Palestinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    As angry as I am at the sloppiness of Israel's recent bombing campaign that is killing innocent teenagers and children, there is no legitimacy for Hamas which has, and always will be, a terrorist organization that suicide bombed Israel back during the last Palestinian Infitada. I don't know how many of you remember that far back, but almost daily Hamas would send a suicide bomber into a cafe, a restaurant, a public square, and blow up as many innocent Israelis as they could. They are not a legitimate government, and never should have been allowed to take control of the Gaza strip. They are the equivalent of Al Qaeda controlling land and establishing a government that expects to be recognized. They're fanatics. Why else do they continue to fire rockets that they know is never going to harm Israel's military only to expect certain retaliation that is going to kill their civilians and destroy what limited infrastructure there is? Morons.

    Still, Israel blew the last peace plan talks from 2 years ago. There was actually a chance there. Now here we are again, killing another 200-300 Palestinians, leveling a few neighborhoods, with a token 2-10 Israelis killed. Meanwhile, Israel continues to build Palestine out of its land with aggressive fanatical Israeli settlers. Piece by piece, acre by acre, this killing cycle will take decades for Israel to continue to solidify its power and holdings over these territories. And we're funding it.
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    Re: Israeli/Palestinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Nothing weird about it -- it's tribalism.

    So is organized crime, at least in the godfather/mafia variety.

    And these groups seem to have mastered the worst of both worlds while stumbling at the rest.
    Tribalism is a separate issue. These organizations have a lot in common with Christian organizations like Knights of Columbus, Masons, Ku Klux Klan, etc- a mission that started with charity and religious promotion/service but has taken on some other political and social aspects beyond where they started.
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    Re: Israeli/Palestinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by KaraBulut View Post
    Tribalism is a separate issue. These organizations have a lot in common with Christian organizations like Knights of Columbus, Masons, Ku Klux Klan, etc- a mission that started with charity and religious promotion/service but has taken on some other political and social aspects beyond where they started.
    They have something in common with the Klan, but that's as far as it goes. And the Klan is, or at least was, also tribal.

    Hamas was formed to kill Jews, and that's its primary purpose. The rest is gloss for show.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Israeli/Palestinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    As angry as I am at the sloppiness of Israel's recent bombing campaign that is killing innocent teenagers and children, there is no legitimacy for Hamas which has, and always will be, a terrorist organization that suicide bombed Israel back during the last Palestinian Infitada. I don't know how many of you remember that far back, but almost daily Hamas would send a suicide bomber into a cafe, a restaurant, a public square, and blow up as many innocent Israelis as they could. They are not a legitimate government, and never should have been allowed to take control of the Gaza strip. They are the equivalent of Al Qaeda controlling land and establishing a government that expects to be recognized. They're fanatics. Why else do they continue to fire rockets that they know is never going to harm Israel's military only to expect certain retaliation that is going to kill their civilians and destroy what limited infrastructure there is? Morons.

    Still, Israel blew the last peace plan talks from 2 years ago. There was actually a chance there. Now here we are again, killing another 200-300 Palestinians, leveling a few neighborhoods, with a token 2-10 Israelis killed. Meanwhile, Israel continues to build Palestine out of its land with aggressive fanatical Israeli settlers. Piece by piece, acre by acre, this killing cycle will take decades for Israel to continue to solidify its power and holdings over these territories. And we're funding it.
    Agreed with the last bit about American involvement/backing.

    As for the condemnation of Hamas, I am no fan of theirs, but I was also never a fan of the Irish terrorists, yet they surely are the inheritors of power now.

    Civil wars make for ugly legacies.

    As easy as it would be to simply say the Israelis and Palestinians deserve each other, they don't. Their families should have hope of one day living in peace, but there isn't any path to it yet.

    What a miserable situation. Thank you again, imperial powers, for the fucked up solution when you carved up the Levant and plopped down the Israelis without having a viable solution. Nice work. Almost as good as dividing Korea at the wrong and indefensible place.

    OH, and THANK YOU to the mod who fixed my thread title.
    Last edited by Dejavudoo; July 18th, 2014 at 03:23 AM.

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    Re: Israeli/Palestinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    Agreed with the last bit about American involvement/backing.

    As for the condemnation of Hamas, I am no fan of theirs, but I was also never a fan of the Irish terrorists, yet they surely are the inheritors of power now.

    Civil wars make for ugly legacies.

    As easy as it would be to simply say the Israelis and Palestinians deserve each other, they don't. Their families should have hope of one day living in peace, but there isn't any path to it yet.

    What a miserable situation. Thank you again, imperial powers, for the fucked up solution when you carved up the Levant and plopped down the Israelis without having a viable solution. Nice work. Almost as good as dividing Korea at the wrong and indefensible place.

    OH, and THANK YOU to the mod who fixed my thread title.
    They'd have done better to have just gone ahead and been totally imperialist, and just moved the population out of ancient Israel. Accompanying that, they should have kept an occupation of Israel and not anywhere else, keeping the Jews under a firm thumb.

    Why the latter? To give the people of the region, Jew and Muslim and Christian and Druze alike, someone outside to hate, and maybe out of that grow a common bond.

    If you're going to be an imperialist, do it in spades.... for the sake of the future.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Israeli/Palestinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Current Events and Politics: On-Topic: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    Both sides are reaping what they have sown. Let them have at it. So long as Israel plays "King of the Mountain" the present circumstance will endure.
    Last edited by opinterph; July 18th, 2014 at 03:09 PM. Reason: added title to linked thread

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    Re: Israeli/Palestinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    Now here we are again, killing another 200-300 Palestinians, leveling a few neighborhoods, with a token 2-10 Israelis killed.
    Hamas purposefully moves the scene of battle to populated areas in Gaza in order to mount civilian casualties and give Israel bad press. For example, the UN recently condemned the practice of rockets stored in one of its schools.

    UNRWA STRONGLY CONDEMNS PLACEMENT OF ROCKETS IN SCHOOL

    Meanwhile, Israel continues to build Palestine out of its land with aggressive fanatical Israeli settlers. Piece by piece, acre by acre, this killing cycle will take decades for Israel to continue to solidify its power and holdings over these territories. And we're funding it.
    Settlement is not taking place in Gaza, and rockets are not launched from the West Bank. Hamas does not control the West Bank; the PA does, which is at odds with Hamas. Some geographic and political knowledge of the conflict might help before pontificating about it.
    Last edited by Alnitak; July 19th, 2014 at 01:12 PM.

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    Re: Israeli/Palestinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    ^^ You draw distinctions without significant difference.

    .... Fatah leader Mahmoud Abbas, who also heads the Palestinian National Authority, condemned Israel’s attacks on the Gaza Strip, calling them a “genocide.” Speaking in the West Bank last week, he said, “What's happening now is a war against the Palestinian people as a whole and not against the [militant] factions.”
    http://www.ibtimes.com/whats-differe...-strip-1632982

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    Re: Israeli/Palestinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    ^^ You draw distinctions without significant difference.



    http://www.ibtimes.com/whats-differe...-strip-1632982
    Hamas took over Gaza in a violent coup against the PA killing many of their supporters and civilians. Of course they hate each other. The chances of a united Palestine is politically impossible so long as Hamas controls Gaza.

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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Actually the Allies took it and the UN gave it to the Jews but why sweat the details. They actually gave land to the Palestinians too but they have consistently failed to build a state on it. There was an interesting article I read yesterday that compared the Palestinians and the Kurds in Iraq, both displaced peoples who are deserving of a state. It was quite illuminating in my opinion.
    Is Hamas Trying to Get Gazans Killed?
    When we speak of terrorists, let's not forget the Zionist terrorists. See this timeline of Zionist murders, bombings, etc.
    http://iamthewitness.com/doc/Bunche.....Near.East.htm

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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by cocksucker4use View Post
    When we speak of terrorists, let's not forget the Zionist terrorists. See this timeline of Zionist murders, bombings, etc.
    http://iamthewitness.com/doc/Bunche.....Near.East.htm
    In all fairness, a lot of what is on the list is pretty far removed from what is going on today. But it was just one side of a two-sided battle with plenty of ugliness on both sides.

    What is happening today is the subjugation of a poor and largely landless people who are so blinded by anger and hatred that there's little hope for any resolution. They're not fighting against Zionist terrorists. They are fighting because it's all they've known for generations.

    The Palestinians are a group of people who don't have a future and nothing to lose. And like so many of these groups, they say they want to end the conflict, yet they elect leadership that has no interest in peace.

    The image below is a wall that exists on the territorial border of the Gaza strip. It's a wall that was erected by the Egyptian government to keep Palestinians from emigrating to Egypt.


    There's over 5 million Palestinians living in "refugee camps" that date back to the 1940s. These camps, many of which are in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria, were established with the intent of being "temporary" accommodations and the Palestinians were told that they could return to their homes in Israel if they acknowledged Israel's right to exist and agreed to "get along with their neighbors".

    It's 2014- so many of those camps have been in existence for nearly 70 years. So, millions of people would prefer to live in refugee camps instead of settle with the Jews. They would rather live in poverty and oppression instead of negotiating for peace. And Israel has been quite earnest in their efforts to ensure that the Palestinians have plenty of poverty and oppression to stoke the flames of the conflict further.
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    Re: Arab/Palenstinian Barbarism: Teen Murders & Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by KaraBulut View Post
    They are fighting because it's all they've known for generations.
    While territorial, Palestinians were not nationalistic until the 1970s, and Gaza was peaceful before the 1st Intifada.

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