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    Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    SCOTUS ruled today in favor of Hobby Lobby's request for a religious exemption from the Affordable Care Act's mandate that insurance plans be required to cover contraception costs for plan members. This is the first time that the Supreme Court has ruled that profit-seeking corporations are capable of holding religious views, and may be exempted from federal law because of the corporation's religious convictions.

    The ACA mandates the coverage of a number of preventive therapies, including contraception, in order to try to prevent fraudulent plans from being marketed as genuine health insurance under the ACA. The ACA has always exempted religious institutions, however, from offering to their employees insurance coverage for contraceptive therapies to which the religion objected.

    Now, all private corporations also have the opportunity to limit insurance coverage provided to their employees, based the corporation's religious convictions.

    The decision was 5-4, based on the party affiliations of the justices. The court's four liberal justices pointed out that allowing corporations to opt out of federal law on the basis of religious beliefs is a decision of "startling breadth," which may have disastrous implications (even beyond the ACA). Corporations may now be free to block coverage for blood transfusions, vaccines, and many life-saving therapies to which they object.


    http://www.politico.com/story/2014/0...te-108429.html

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    All that means is the corporations got out of paying for part of their insurance that other companies have to cover but we will pick up the slack. I look for newly formed businesses to come out under "religion" umbrella.
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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Wow.

    Just wow.

    Just when you thought it couldn't get any more bizarre, the SC has now endowed Corporations as people with religious conscience.

    Biggest step backwards.

    Get ready for the backlash by all the companies who now can discriminate against women, homos and god knows what else on this basis.

  4. #4

    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Most churches are organized as corporations as well. Corporations are legal persons, not people, but they are collections of people. Most importantly the First Amendment prohibits the Congress from establishing religion ( including atheism ) or prohibiting the FREE exercise of religion. But the Constitution does not remotely authorize the Congress to require anyone to pay for the birth control of others.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Get ready to see laws that protect us getting challenged under this ruling.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    All this ruling represents, in my opinion, is a continuation of the Republican Party's relentless attack on the Affordable Care Act. The Republicans will not rest until they have destroyed the whole thing. I just hope they, and the evil forces that back them, can be stopped before it is too late.
    Last edited by Special K; June 30th, 2014 at 12:18 PM.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Special K View Post
    All this ruling represents, in my opinion, is a continuation of the Republican Party's relentless attack on the Affordable Care Act. The Republicans will not rest until they have destroyed the whole thing. I just hope they, and the evil forces that back them, can be stopped before it is too late.
    The evil forces who oppose obamacare are a majority of the voters by most polls.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    It looks like the whole thing is already blowing up in the face of the the Supremes, Hobby Lobby and the GOP'ers who are hailing the decision.

    I'm reading a lot of anger and disgust out there.

    This might have just cost the Republicans some 2014 seats and will resonate all the way through to Hillary winning the White House in 2016.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The evil forces who oppose obamacare are a majority of the voters by most polls.
    Many of those whom oppose the ACA actually wanted it to go further, and a majority do support a public option. What the majority did not want, and did not vote for, is the current House majority.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    And on the eighth day GOD created Hobby Lobby.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Most churches are organized as corporations as well. Corporations are legal persons, not people, but they are collections of people. Most importantly the First Amendment prohibits the Congress from establishing religion ( including atheism ) or prohibiting the FREE exercise of religion. But the Constitution does not remotely authorize the Congress to require anyone to pay for the birth control of others.
    Except your entire argument is invalidated by the fact that men's Viagra/Cialis/Levitra has never been challenged by a corporation/group based on their "religious beliefs."
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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Can somebody please tell me where there's another planet I can live on?
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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Forward march for the general conservative ideology that all workers rights should be trashed and whatever the corporation says goes.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    SCOTUS ruled today in favor of Hobby Lobby's request for a religious exemption from the Affordable Care Act's mandate that insurance plans be required to cover contraception costs for plan members. This is the first time that the Supreme Court has ruled that profit-seeking corporations are capable of holding religious views, and may be exempted from federal law because of the corporation's religious convictions.
    . . . .

    Now, all private corporations also have the opportunity to limit insurance coverage provided to their employees, based the corporation's religious convictions.
    Sorry, but no. Nothing was said about companies having beliefs of any kind, and it was a very narrow ruling. It applies only to "closely held" corporations, which means companies controlled by five or fewer people (according to the IRS). It turns out that in general the handful of individuals in control of the company are family members.

    It comes down to the religious convictions of those in control through majority ownership of the stock. The ruling doesn't apply to the vast majority of corporations, since it's very rare for so few to be in control (trivia: name one obvious exception).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by justdra View Post
    All that means is the corporations got out of paying for part of their insurance that other companies have to cover but we will pick up the slack. I look for newly formed businesses to come out under "religion" umbrella.
    I would expect such a claim to be subject to the same sort of scrutiny applied to conscientious objector status: you have to belong to a church with a doctrinal rejection of the matter.

    Personally I hoped they'd go with a "religious purpose" criterion, so that only businesses with a religious purpose would be exempt. This approach, though narrow, is too imprecise and will generate additional cases before the scope is pinned down.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Wow.
    . . . .

    Get ready for the backlash by all the companies who now can discriminate against women, homos and god knows what else on this basis.
    There aren't many -- newspapers were scrambling to find enough to make lists of examples.

    Oh -- there's nothing in this about gays. It's a negative decision, allowing exemptions from government requirements set on a business, specifically government requirements which require the business to incur specific expenses.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    Get ready to see laws that protect us getting challenged under this ruling.
    Can't be done -- the government isn't requiring any corporations to incur expenditures on our behalf.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The evil forces who oppose obamacare are a majority of the voters by most polls.
    Most of the people who oppose it do so because it guarantees corporations a supply of customers, thus making sure medical care costs will remain high, and care not available even for many who take part.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    Forward march for the general conservative ideology that all workers rights should be trashed and whatever the corporation says goes.
    Again, no; the ruling is very narrow -- not narrow enough to my mind, but still narrow.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  20. #20
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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    The Court basically held that small non-publicly traded companies where the ownership all hold a specific religious view, the state cannot impose its will against those religious beliefs unless there is a compelling state interest (which there is in this case) AND the state takes the least intrusive approach to meeting that interest (which in this case it did not). In this case, the Administration was its own worse enemy by providing exceptions to non-profit organizations it demonstrated that there were less intrusive alternatives to achieve the State's compelling interests.

    Common misconceptions about this case: Hobby Lobby DOES provide contraceptive options in its employee health plans, they only object to specific types (the pill, IUDs, morning after pill) of contraceptives that they believe are forms of abortions (as they define it not the HHS). The Administration could have prevented this ruling easily by allowing those specific exceptions instead of insisting on all or nothing.

    All this hoopla about blocking transfusions and life saving treatments is just hype since this ruling is very narrowly tailored and couldn't be used to do that unless BOTH conditions are met, the plaintiffs prove they have a strongly religious belief AND there is a reasonable alternative to meet the state's compelling interest in protecting lives. There is more than enough case history involving parents of minors withholding such treatment to show that the State's compelling interest would prevail in any such case. There are reasonable alternatives available to the IUD, there is no 'reasonable' alternatives to a blood transfusion.
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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    And now the shamelessly lazy court will take off three months to go on a vacation to god only knows where that no other branch of government helps itself to, and which most Americans whom do work find totally undeserved.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Again, no; the ruling is very narrow -- not narrow enough to my mind, but still narrow.
    The ruling is narrow but it sets a precedent that a corp can sue to opt out of any part of any law that the owner/operators feel is against their religion, and have a decent chance at success in their case. That is a very BROAD precedent, as Ginsberg noted in her dissent.

    And btw, I wasn't saying this decision trashes all workers rights. I was saying it's part of a consistent pattern of conservative ideology that wants to chip away at those rights more and more, and basically feels that business should always get what it wants at the expense of the workers.
    Last edited by hotatlboi; June 30th, 2014 at 05:34 PM.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    The court seems to just want to wade into the abortion debate.

    From the standpoint of a non-female it doesn't seem right to have those decisions made by 5 men.

    This is just another reason why for-profit employer provided insurance is simply bad medicine.

    As for giving corporations religious beliefs, that does pose a problem as any loophole for "vague" reasons could be a means without end.

    From this decision, it seems the court is saying corporations are people and women are not.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    The ruling is narrow but it sets a precedent that a corp can sue to opt out of any part of any law that the owner/operators feel is against their religion, and have a decent chance at success in their case. That is a very BROAD precedent, as Ginsberg noted in her dissent.

    And btw, I wasn't saying this decision trashes all workers rights. I was saying it's part of a consistent pattern of conservative ideology that wants to chip away at those rights more and more, and basically feels that business should always get what it wants at the expense of the workers.
    Yes and using religion as a guise or Trojan horse, it would be interesting to understand why the religion clauses were put into the bill of rights (which was not the conservatives idea) and if those precedents look anything like the court says they do.

    It seem the court is using the bill of rights to do what the federal constitution cannot do on its own without a bill of rights, exclude based on religious beliefs? Would that not be establishing a religion in itself?
    Last edited by evanrick; June 30th, 2014 at 05:39 PM.


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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    BTW, previous decisions had already established that for-profit companies can exercise religious beliefs, just as corporations are included by law in the term "person".

    Reading the decision, and digging into the laws cited, the Court had little choice left it by Congress. I don't like it, but this is another case where almost no matter which way they went they'd be overturning precedent and law affecting far more than just this issue. So the Court did what it usually does in such cases: follow the intent of Congress in applicable law, but do so as narrowly as possible.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    And now the shamelessly lazy court will take off three months to go on a vacation to god only knows where that no other branch of government helps itself to, and which most Americans whom do work find totally undeserved.
    That reminds me: I think we need two Supreme Courts, if only to have one running all the time.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Sorry, but no. Nothing was said about companies having beliefs of any kind, and it was a very narrow ruling.
    Alito said in his opinion, "any suggestion that for-profit corporations are incapable of exercising religion because their purpose is simply to make money flies in the face of modern corporate law.

    Alito believes corporations are capable of exercising religion, and he so stated in the court's majority opinion.

    And Justice Ginsburg disagrees with you that this is a "narrow" ruling. On the contrary, she describes this decision as having "startling breadth."

    Ginsburg’s dissent blasts the majority opinion for its “starting breadth,” as she warns that companies “can opt out of any law (saving only tax laws) they judge incompatible with their sincerely held religious beliefs.”

    http://www.politico.com/story/2014/0...#ixzz36Al6z4LF
    See also: The Hobby Lobby Decision Isn't Narrow.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It applies only to "closely held" corporations, which means companies controlled by five or fewer people (according to the IRS)...

    ...The ruling doesn't apply to the vast majority of corporations, since it's very rare for so few to be in control.
    Not necessarily:

    The idea that the decision is narrow – that it only applies to closely-held, sincerely-religious corporations and isn’t a license to discriminate, and that it would only apply to women’s health – came from the majority in response to the dissent’s fierce criticisms. But as the majority itself noted, no big, publicly-traded corporation has emerged to make such a claim. The Court doesn’t have to rule on a question it isn’t asked. Now that the court has recognized that corporations have religious exercise, the door has been opened. All it takes is for the right plaintiff to walk through it.

    http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/hobby-lob...ion-not-narrow
    Last edited by T-Rexx; June 30th, 2014 at 05:53 PM.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    The ruling is narrow but it sets a precedent that a corp can sue to opt out of any part of any law that the owner/operators feel is against their religion, and have a decent chance at success in their case. That is a very BROAD precedent, as Ginsberg noted in her dissent.

    And btw, I wasn't saying this decision trashes all workers rights. I was saying it's part of a consistent pattern of conservative ideology that wants to chip away at those rights more and more, and basically feels that business should always get what it wants at the expense of the workers.
    Ginsburg made some good points, but this isn't one of them: Alito pointed out that the companies concerned have a statement of faith in their articles, and that the leadership of the companies are unanimous in support of the position. That's not going to happen often... though I expect to see cases testing it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by evanrick View Post
    The court seems to just want to wade into the abortion debate.

    From the standpoint of a non-female it doesn't seem right to have those decisions made by 5 men.
    That's a non-issue. As Alito pointed out, the law already established a way around this -- so new new decision for women was made by "five men".

    Quote Originally Posted by evanrick View Post
    This is just another reason why for-profit employer provided insurance is simply bad medicine.

    As for giving corporations religious beliefs, that does pose a problem as any loophole for "vague" reasons could be a means without end.

    From this decision, it seems the court is saying corporations are people and women are not.
    The law says that the term "person" includes the meaning "corporation", so without any foundation in the Constitution to say that's wrong, the Court wasn't saying anything except that it's following the law.

    Besides that, the decision explicitly ruled out any broad application here, instead focusing on the fact that these companies are totally owned by a handful of people in each case and that those people are unanimous in their position. Alito's wording even hinted that unless the owners of a corporation were unanimous, the company has no such protection -- which means that publicly traded companies are SOL, because anyone who didn't want to see one take a religious position could buy stock and object.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by evanrick View Post
    Yes and using religion as a guise or Trojan horse, it would be interesting to understand why the religion clauses were put into the bill of rights (which was not the conservatives idea) and if those precedents look anything like the court says they do.

    It seem the court is using the bill of rights to do what the federal constitution cannot do on its own without a bill of rights, exclude based on religious beliefs? Would that not be establishing a religion in itself?
    The Court relied very heavily on the Restoring Religious Freedom law Congress passed back when the Court made a strange ruling in the case of the Native American Church; religious congresscritters of all stripes decided a line had to be drawn, so religious rightys wouldn't start getting whittled away.




    Tell me, if anyone can: why can't they be so assertive about our rights protecting us against the abuse of law enforcement?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Alito said in his opinion, "any suggestion that for-profit corporations are incapable of exercising religion because their purpose is simply to make money flies in the face of modern corporate law.

    Alito believes corporations are capable of exercising religion, and he so stated in the court's majority opinion.
    That may or may not be Alito's belief; it is, however, precedent. But he was careful to point out just how narrow this ruling is.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    And Justice Ginsburg disagrees with you that this is a "narrow" ruling. On the contrary, she describes this decision as having "startling breadth."

    See also: The Hobby Lobby Decision Isn't Narrow.
    I don't know what Ginsburg is reading to come to her conclusion -- and this bit from that article is just wrong:

    The question before the Court was twofold: Do corporations enjoy the same protections for religious liberty as individuals do? And if so, does providing contraceptive coverage in an employee health plan – as required under the Affordable Care Act – violate that liberty?

    Justice Samuel Alito, writing for all of the Republican-appointed justices, answered “yes” to both questions.
    What Alito did was (1) follow precedent and (2) say "Yes, but only for some closely-held corporations".

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Not necessarily:
    Yes, necessarily. Alito essentially established tests for this, specifically that the company is closely held, along with hinting that agreement on a particular religious issue must be unanimous. If GM came up with a similar case, they wouldn't even get certiorary, because there's no way GM would meet the test.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That may or may not be Alito's belief; it is, however, precedent. But he was careful to point out just how narrow this ruling is.
    I find it rather comical that you don't seem to realize how contradictory those two statements are.

    If this ruling was well grounded in precedent, the majority would not have had to bend over backwards disavowing any other applications of it. Instead, the precedent would make the application in this case (and any potential others) readily apparent.

    What this ruling does (if it is indeed so narrow in practice) is present a very illogical argument, one that religious beliefs about the morning after pill/abortion are superior to other kinds of religious beliefs, such that they are eligible for an exception to the law, while other beliefs are not.
    Last edited by hotatlboi; June 30th, 2014 at 06:18 PM.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    And now the shamelessly lazy court will take off three months to go on a vacation to god only knows where that no other branch of government helps itself to, and which most Americans whom do work find totally undeserved.
    At least there will be a few months, during which the SCOTUS cannot do any further harm.
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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    At least there will be a few months, during which the SCOTUS cannot do any further harm.
    Right.....

    I just don't want there to be any delays for the marriage cases, though there is a chance that it might not matter well into the fall.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    I think what this ruling is actually saying is that corporations (even those who don't meet the "narrow" requirements of the ruling) can and should be able to decide just what benefits they may or may not provide their employees. However, what I think will happen will be that corporations (and businesses who aren't corporations) will try to argue that they have a "closely held religious belief" against some minority and the courthouses will become so clogged that the SCOTUS will have to either clarify it's ruling to more narrowly define what it meant or be forced to reverse itself. We can only HOPE

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by smokeshadow View Post
    I think what this ruling is actually saying is that corporations (even those who don't meet the "narrow" requirements of the ruling) can and should be able to decide just what benefits they may or may not provide their employees. However, what I think will happen will be that corporations (and businesses who aren't corporations) will try to argue that they have a "closely held religious belief" against some minority and the courthouses will become so clogged that the SCOTUS will have to either clarify it's ruling to more narrowly define what it meant or be forced to reverse itself. We can only HOPE
    One, they would have to provide some existing proof about just belief, they can't just up and say we have a closely held belief that we just invented last week. Second, they can only find relief from the state's vested interest in protecting the minorities right is if there is a less intrusive alternative to achieve that same interest. Such as in this case, where the Administration itself provided the proof that there was an acceptable alternative that it had already provided to non-profit corporations.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    I find it rather comical that you don't seem to realize how contradictory those two statements are.
    They aren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    If this ruling was well grounded in precedent, the majority would not have had to bend over backwards disavowing any other applications of it. Instead, the precedent would make the application in this case (and any potential others) readily apparent.
    It doesn't work that way -- if it did, we wouldn't need a Supreme Court. Precedent gets set all the time that later leads to needing some further definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    What this ruling does (if it is indeed so narrow in practice) is present a very illogical argument, one that religious beliefs about the morning after pill/abortion are superior to other kinds of religious beliefs, such that they are eligible for an exception to the law, while other beliefs are not.
    It doesn't address any others -- what it does address it what sort of corporations this applies to. The very logic of the argument restricts it to these: the protections of a corporation as a person are for the protection of the persons who own the corporation -- but no corporation can have a religious position unless agreement is unanimous.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by smokeshadow View Post
    I think what this ruling is actually saying is that corporations (even those who don't meet the "narrow" requirements of the ruling) can and should be able to decide just what benefits they may or may not provide their employees. However, what I think will happen will be that corporations (and businesses who aren't corporations) will try to argue that they have a "closely held religious belief" against some minority and the courthouses will become so clogged that the SCOTUS will have to either clarify it's ruling to more narrowly define what it meant or be forced to reverse itself. We can only HOPE
    But the test for future cases is already there: this applies only to certain closely-held companies.

    I'd like them to narrow it to just corporations with a religious purpose, but that would require undoing a bunch of law that has to do with a lot of other things.

    It would be nice if Congress would quickly pass a new act defining the restrictions Alito used as the outer limit of the exception the Court has now carved out. Since Alito depended so on the RFRA, a statement from Congress saying, "Thus far, and no more" should take care of the matter -- after all, the final authority on what Congress meant by a law is Congress.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; June 30th, 2014 at 08:42 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    One, they would have to provide some existing proof about just belief, they can't just up and say we have a closely held belief that we just invented last week. Second, they can only find relief from the state's vested interest in protecting the minorities right is if there is a less intrusive alternative to achieve that same interest. Such as in this case, where the Administration itself provided the proof that there was an acceptable alternative that it had already provided to non-profit corporations.
    Yeah....

    Which points to the fact that if Obama hadn't tried to get the GOP on board by going with a plan that sold out to corporations, we wouldn't be facing this mess.

    The next move should be to establish a national not-for-profit insurance company for those who can't afford any, and hand the government's role over to it... then extend its coverage to employees of any employer who can demonstrate that maintaining its own program is a significant burden... and to employees of any company with religious objections...

    until that insurance company becomes a de facto single-payer for everyone.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Yeah....

    Which points to the fact that if Obama hadn't tried to get the GOP on board by going with a plan that sold out to corporations, we wouldn't be facing this mess.

    The next move should be to establish a national not-for-profit insurance company for those who can't afford any, and hand the government's role over to it... then extend its coverage to employees of any employer who can demonstrate that maintaining its own program is a significant burden... and to employees of any company with religious objections...

    until that insurance company becomes a de facto single-payer for everyone.
    A couple of the commentaries I read today pointed out that the even without that example there were obvious alternatives available, such as simply having the Federal government take up the cost of paying for that coverage. It seems the way the RFRA reads if the government's interest is sound, then it should be willing to put the taxpayers money up for it.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Why not just repeal the Religious Meddling Entrenchment Act passed back in '93?

    Also, get rid of the stupid exemption for organisations.

    Also, didn't Roe v. Wade establish the right to an abortion in the private sphere? That was decided by 7 men out of 9 men. Maybe that should be repealed now that there are a few women on the court?
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    A couple of the commentaries I read today pointed out that the even without that example there were obvious alternatives available, such as simply having the Federal government take up the cost of paying for that coverage. It seems the way the RFRA reads if the government's interest is sound, then it should be willing to put the taxpayers money up for it.
    Because of the certainty of asphyxiation, I will not hold my breath waiting for another "religious" corporation to sue for the right not to be required to cover insurance for "sex pills" for men.
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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    A couple of the commentaries I read today pointed out that the even without that example there were obvious alternatives available, such as simply having the Federal government take up the cost of paying for that coverage. It seems the way the RFRA reads if the government's interest is sound, then it should be willing to put the taxpayers money up for it.
    The fundamental problem with Obamacare is that it is private insurance.

    If Obama had given us universal health care on the model of Canada and Europe, we would not be having all these issues. The government would just pay for the care that people need, without interference from religious nuts.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That may or may not be Alito's belief
    I'm not sure why Alito would write an opinion with which he disagreed. I think we can trust his word that he believes corporations can hold religious beliefs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    But he was careful to point out just how narrow this ruling is.
    And Ginsberg, Breyer, Kagan, and Sotomayor were careful to point out how broad this ruling really is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I don't know what Ginsburg is reading to come to her conclusion
    She based her opinion on the fact that this is the first time in history that any court has found that a corporation can have religious beliefs - and that corporations are free to impose those beliefs on their employees. As Ginsberg points out, that determination has "startling breadth" that will come to affect many aspects of law, even beyond health care and the ACA.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    What Alito did was (1) follow precedent and (2) say "Yes, but only for some closely-held corporations".
    Alito most emphatically did NOT "follow precedent." SCOTUS has established an entirely new precedent with this ruling - that corporations can hold religious beliefs. "Closely-held" is a meaningless term. It is logically absurd to claim that some corporations can have religious beliefs, while others may not, based on an undefined and nebulous number of stock holders, whose religious beliefs are not necessarily even known.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Mess......at least Ginsburg sees the inherent dangers in this stupid ruling by the Catholic Boys club.

    For anyone not thinking that corporations will use this to discriminate against others...you are living in a fools' paradise. The right wing fundies are already toasting the decision as a way to push back against the homos.
    Last edited by rareboy; July 1st, 2014 at 03:14 AM.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Honestly considering the requirement that a business prove that they have such religious beliefs to be begin with, both the plaintiffs in this case had a long history in their company statements and records showing it, combined with the requirement of unanimous consent of the ownership; I find it highly unlikely that very many companies could take advantage of this. Its really going to narrow down to the small number of companies owned by a single family or group. And even then its not a universal solution that gets you out of any law, it only forces the state to seek the least intrusive solution to its valid interests.

    Religious freedom has not allowed individuals to sacrifice virgins, skirt drug laws or parents to deny life saving treatment to dependent children, the same would apply to any company.
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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The fundamental problem with Obamacare is that it is private insurance.

    If Obama had given us universal health care on the model of Canada and Europe, we would not be having all these issues. The government would just pay for the care that people need, without interference from religious nuts.
    I think that proposition would have been a hard sell for President Obama and his administration, after all, the universal health care model is regarded by many Americans (namely supporters of the Republican Party) as tantamount to Socialism, which as you know, tends to generate mass hysteria. Also, I think that the Republican Party views Europeans as Socialist sub-humans, or so one would be led to believe judging by their rhetoric.
    Last edited by Special K; July 1st, 2014 at 06:23 AM.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    SCOTUS ruled today in favor of Hobby Lobby's request for a religious exemption from the Affordable Care Act's mandate that insurance plans be required to cover contraception costs for plan members. This is the first time that the Supreme Court has ruled that profit-seeking corporations are capable of holding religious views, and may be exempted from federal law because of the corporation's religious convictions.

    The ACA mandates the coverage of a number of preventive therapies, including contraception, in order to try to prevent fraudulent plans from being marketed as genuine health insurance under the ACA. The ACA has always exempted religious institutions, however, from offering to their employees insurance coverage for contraceptive therapies to which the religion objected.

    Now, all private corporations also have the opportunity to limit insurance coverage provided to their employees, based the corporation's religious convictions.

    The decision was 5-4, based on the party affiliations of the justices. The court's four liberal justices pointed out that allowing corporations to opt out of federal law on the basis of religious beliefs is a decision of "startling breadth," which may have disastrous implications (even beyond the ACA). Corporations may now be free to block coverage for blood transfusions, vaccines, and many life-saving therapies to which they object.


    http://www.politico.com/story/2014/0...te-108429.html

    This decision was not a surprise.

    What also is evident is that Affordable Care Act, boasted by the website @ http://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/rights/ , "[puts consumers back in charge] of their health care. Under the law, a new “Patient’s Bill of Rights” gives the American people the stability and flexibility they need to make informed choices about their health," was the wrong approach by the 109th Congress. President Obama sold out liberals and they being the base of the Democratic Party (which is typical now of Democratic presidents) that catapulted him to the 2008 Democratic nomination and were critical to electing him to the presidency of the United States. This Democratic Party has sold out, become "The New Republicans" (as Bill Maher termed them), and should not be (and they are not) surprised by this U.S. Supreme Court decision catering to the right-wing Christians.

    Single payer has been the answer all along. That healthcare should be handled not from an employment-dependent level but from a governmental level. (Our elected officials in Washington, D.C. have the kind of health insurance we should all have throughout the United States. They're well taken care of for their health needs.) So, Hobby Lobby and the U.S. Supreme Court have helped illuminate this truth.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    Because of the certainty of asphyxiation, I will not hold my breath waiting for another "religious" corporation to sue for the right not to be required to cover insurance for "sex pills" for men.
    what religious statute makes taking viagra a sin?

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    If anyone thinks this ruling won't be used to go after laws that protect the LGBT community, not to mention other groups, you're fooling yourselves.

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    Re: Supreme Court Rules Corporations Can Have Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    If anyone thinks this ruling won't be used to go after laws that protect the LGBT community, not to mention other groups, you're fooling yourselves.
    Quoted for truth again.

    The closely held 'Christian' corporations, prompted by the Bryan Fischers of this world are already taking aim.

    In fundamentalist churches all over the US today...the homophobes are thanking God for the US making the old testament and the Pauline doctrine the one true State religion.

    Jesus wept.

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