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  1. #1
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    California Shooting: The spin begins

    The pop psychologists are out and the theories are starting on the mass shooter.

    Fox News 'expert' and so called 'TLC Reality TV psychotherapist' (it appears she does have some degree) says he was angry because he was gay and couldn't deal with his homosexual feelings.

    Fox News 'Expert': 'Homosexual Impulses' Probably Triggered Calif. Mass Shooting

    A Feminist columnist on The Guardian is chalking it up to misogyny.

    Elliot Rodger's California shooting spree: further proof that misogyny kills

    The Shooter's Father is blaming the NRA though I haven't seen any indication that any realistic gun control legislation the NRA may have blocked would have prevented this. The guns were legally purchased and met the standards that President Obama had sought to put in place in his recent efforts. (Handguns with 10 rounds or less magazines.)
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    On his video, he said he like girls.
    He can't be a homosexual.

    OMG that stupid psychologist Dr. Robi Ludwig
    Last edited by Telstra; May 25th, 2014 at 11:24 AM.


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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    The Shooter's Father is blaming the NRA though I haven't seen any indication that any realistic gun control legislation the NRA may have blocked would have prevented this.
    Three of his victims were stabbed to death. So the anti-gun nuts have no business meddling in this.

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe5 View Post
    Three of his victims were stabbed to death. So the anti-gun nuts have no business meddling in this.
    So, lets pull out the statistics.
    How many people were killed by knives, baseball bats, rocks, crow bars ... etc ?
    How many people were killed by guns ?


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    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    So, lets pull out the statistics.
    How many people were killed by knives, baseball bats, rocks, crow bars ... etc ?
    How many people were killed by guns ?
    In 2011 in the US: Guns 8,583; All others: 4,081

    In this crime: Guns 6; All others: 4
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    according to this video,
    in 2006 the guns related deaths in the US is 10,225 compared to Japan is 2
    The US should have a gun war death memorial for its citizens.



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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    In 2011 in the US: Guns 8,583; All others: 4,081

    In this crime: Guns 6; All others: 4
    In 2013, over 12,000 people in the USA were killed by guns according to Slate, but the CDC figure is closer to 32,000.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...to_record.html

    According to statistics slowly, painstakingly assembled by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention from death certificates, about 32,000 people are killed by guns in America each year. (In the most recent year for which preliminary data is available, 2011, the exact number was 32,163.) Our number, meanwhile, hovers in the 11,000s.

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    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    In 2013, over 12,000 people in the USA were killed by guns according to Slate, but the CDC figure is closer to 32,000.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...to_record.html
    They are likely including suicides and accidents, the figure I found was specifically of murders in 2011. Rather shocking that there is that much difference though.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    The Shooter's Father is blaming the NRA though I haven't seen any indication that any realistic gun control legislation the NRA may have blocked would have prevented this. The guns were legally purchased and met the standards that President Obama had sought to put in place in his recent efforts. (Handguns with 10 rounds or less magazines.)
    Some legislation the NRA has pursued might have helped, though, if the guy was as psychologically messed up as it sounds.

    That proposal amuses me in a way: even though La Pierre publicly calls for such legislation, there's no way the GOP is ever going to vote for something that would look like providing government health care.

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    In 2013, over 12,000 people in the USA were killed by guns according to Slate, but the CDC figure is closer to 32,000.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...to_record.html
    Those numbers are almost as different as the figures for how often people avert crime by using firearms -- I didn't realize there was such a gulf on this one.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    They are likely including suicides and accidents, the figure I found was specifically of murders in 2011. Rather shocking that there is that much difference though.
    I've heard claims (from a 2nd Am. outfit to the right of the GOA) that if you take out criminals shooting criminals, the number is barely over 5k.

    I'm actually surprised I haven't heard anyone point out he was foreign-born and somehow make that part of the issue.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    In this crime: Guns 6; All others: 4
    6 people in TOTAL were killed, including the 3 that were stabbed to death.
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...rbara/9532405/

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe5 View Post
    6 people in TOTAL were killed, including the 3 that were stabbed to death.
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...rbara/9532405/
    Wasn't sure I keep getting different numbers from different articles. Thanks.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    This father blames the NRA.
    NRA should pay for the victims every time there is a gun death.



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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    This father blames the NRA.
    NRA should pay for the victims every time there is a gun death.

    Maazel Tov

    As long as the NRA continues to suck off our "legislators" nothing will change. Possible solution? Campaign finance reform!

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    ...with history the final judge of our deeds. - JFK

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    MRAs are stupidly being blamed too.

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    The thing about the shootings is they're almost cookie cutter at this point, and it's usually because someone wants something they think they deserve/'own' and they don't get it so they want to hurt others. This particular shooter had mental health counseling already available, among other things. A friend of mine put it pretty well though.

    ""You don't have to be crazy to kill. You don't have to be crazy to plan to kill. You don't have to be crazy to kill lots of people because you're upset. Yet, every mass shooting we're told that it's the work of a crazy person.""

    I'll also add that just because someone is getting therapy or on meds that it doesn't automatically mean the mental illness caused a shooting - an anxiety issue isn't going to make someone deliberately run over a couple of bicyclists, for instance.

    *Also, an overwhelmingly significant bit that informs that kinda behavior is narcissistic, volitile and histrionic aspects of personal psychology, none of which cancel their personal responsibility for their actions. Dealing with a mental illness isn't the same as the popular 24/7 concept of the 'insanity' defense that's usually claimed n cases like this.

    He knew damn well what he was doing.
    Last edited by luckynumbah7; May 25th, 2014 at 04:56 PM.
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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post
    The thing about the shootings is they're almost cookie cutter at this point, and it's usually because someone wants something they think they deserve/'own' and they don't get it so they want to hurt others. This particular shooter had mental health counseling already available, among other things. A friend of mine put it pretty well though.

    ""You don't have to be crazy to kill. You don't have to be crazy to plan to kill. You don't have to be crazy to kill lots of people because you're upset. Yet, every mass shooting we're told that it's the work of a crazy person.""

    I'll also add that just because someone is getting therapy or on meds that it doesn't automatically mean the mental illness caused a shooting - an anxiety issue isn't going to make someone deliberately run over a couple of bicyclists, for instance.

    *Also, an overwhelmingly significant bit that informs that kinda behavior is narcissistic, volitile and histrionic aspects of personal psychology, none of which cancel their personal responsibility for their actions. Dealing with a mental illness isn't the same as the popular 24/7 concept of the 'insanity' defense that's usually claimed n cases like this.

    He knew damn well what he was doing.
    But when you have someone like this, or several other recent shooters, when the mental health people working with him knew he was a danger and may have even said so, it's a different matter.

    Everyone competent is the militia, so everyone competent can bear arms -- that's the law. But the militia concept, since the eighteenth century or before, has always acknowledged that there are people who cannot be "well-regulated", meaning they'll never be capable of the proper safety and discipline to be competent to bear arms. We have now repeatedly seen people plainly not competent to bear arms, who were known to be not competent, but there is no mechanism for excluding them.

    Back in the day, they would have been prevented from acquiring firearms because the community would have recognized they were a safety problem. We don't have that simplicity these days, but we do have a mechanism provided in the Constitution for dealing with the increased complexity -- it's found in Article I, Section 8, where Congress is assigned the authority to provide for the discipline of the militia. Providing for that discipline includes recognizing that some will never be sufficiently self-disciplined to be trusted with arms.

    But Congress has done nothing except grandstand. One side defends the right to keep and bear arms as though there are no limitations, while the other denies that it's a right at all and aims to treat people as property of the state. Tragically, just a few generations ago our politicians in general understood what keeping and bearing arms meant, that it was not merely an individual right but also a civic responsibility; now both those are denied.

    The only way to deal with this is to go back to the militia concept and get Congress to exercise its delegated authority -- to act on its responsibility to do so. It's been suggested that the NRA should have to pay every time there's harm done with a gun, but that's idiotic -- what isn't idiotic is to begin calling Congress a conspiracy to deprive citizens of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness by refusing to do their jobs. A law taking the costs of gun harm out of their salaries would be quite appropriate.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by sa11 View Post
    MRAs are stupidly being blamed too.
    ?? Motorcycle Racing Associations?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    But when you have someone like this, or several other recent shooters, when the mental health people working with him knew he was a danger and may have even said so, it's a different matter.
    I quite like the idea of taking the costs of gun harm out of their salaries. The system is skewed and rather broken. The people in authority knew he shouldn't've had access to projectile weapons (or any weapons, really, which means living in society as a whole). If someone is doing the shit he did, made plans for mass killing et cetera he should've been regulated to an institution for therapy and evaluation. They failed, horribly - and while the murders aren't on their head, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they had a type of survivors' guilt.
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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Well, I watched his video Retribution, and one of his other videos. He did have an effeminate quality to him. It does make me wonder whether he was actually secretly gay and simply didn't accept it.

    Either way, he clearly had a lot of mental health issues and it's a shame that his parents never realized the gravity of the matter. I guess his father was too busy making movies. How someone in his condition got access to guns is truly beyond me.

    It is a shame that all of these shooting incidents are literally having no effect at all on society. I think at this point society is simply immune to all of these incidents. Basically it's like "well, there is another one", but without any true feeling towards the victims. And this is because these incidents are all too frequent now.

    Pro Gun Advocates on the Right take the "Oh, well, it's unfortunate, but I'll be damned if I am going to support anything that restricts my rights to own a firearm because I will need all of my automatic and semi-automatic rifles in case Obama decides to turn the armed forces against us."

    But it is also clear that we have a ton of individuals that have mental health issues in this country that are somehow getting rather easy access to firearms when they shouldn't be.

    Bottom line is that nothing will be done. Society is too immune to these incidents at this point and the NRA simply will not be challenged for political reasons. These incidents will actually continue with remarkable frequency, I feel.
    Telling it like it is.

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    The one thing I've heard on this that I absolutely agree with is that the intelligence/police state has no business demanding that even more of our privacy rights be eroded when they failed to stop a shooting even when the shooter posted a video stating that he was going to conduct a shooting AND when the police had been called on him previously.

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    Either way, he clearly had a lot of mental health issues and it's a shame that his parents never realized the gravity of the matter. I guess his father was too busy making movies. How someone in his condition got access to guns is truly beyond me.
    His parents did realize the gravity of the situation.

    This man was a beneficiary of privilege and was under as extensive a treatment regimen for mental health issues as exists anywhere in the world. That it did not prevent him from murdering 6 people is not at all surprising. The technology does not exist to recognize when or if a person will act in a lethal manner towards other people.

    In America, we believe that people have a right to threaten others with displays of force. We believe that such threats of harm are honorable and desirable among upstanding citizens. We give people like Elliot Rodger access to guns because we believe that is a good way for Americans to deal with their insecurities.


    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    It is a shame that all of these shooting incidents are literally having no effect at all on society. I think at this point society is simply immune to all of these incidents. Basically it's like "well, there is another one", but without any true feeling towards the victims. And this is because these incidents are all too frequent now.

    Pro Gun Advocates on the Right take the "Oh, well, it's unfortunate, but I'll be damned if I am going to support anything that restricts my rights to own a firearm because I will need all of my automatic and semi-automatic rifles in case Obama decides to turn the armed forces against us."

    But it is also clear that we have a ton of individuals that have mental health issues in this country that are somehow getting rather easy access to firearms when they shouldn't be.

    Bottom line is that nothing will be done. Society is too immune to these incidents at this point and the NRA simply will not be challenged for political reasons. These incidents will actually continue with remarkable frequency, I feel.

    The problem is that America has a culture that teaches that threatening and harming others and forcing them to bend to your will by physical force is a desirable and honorable means of solving problems.

    John Wayne made a career out of this. Elliot Rodger was just doing what we taught him. He fought back against his demons with physical violence against the people who were failing to give him what he wanted. He compensated for his insecurities by arming himself.


    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    The one thing I've heard on this that I absolutely agree with is that the intelligence/police state has no business demanding that even more of our privacy rights be eroded when they failed to stop a shooting even when the shooter posted a video stating that he was going to conduct a shooting AND when the police had been called on him previously.
    There are tens of thousands of people out there who do provocative things like threatening violence against others, but never proceed to actually hurting people. It is not reasonable to try to jail all these people, nor would that be helpful. The technology does not exist to know when a dangerous person becomes unacceptably dangerous.

    But we need to stop teaching these people that violence and the threat of violence is an honorable, desirable, and patriotically American means of dealing with their problems.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; May 26th, 2014 at 03:37 AM.

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post

    .....


    In America, we believe that people have a right to threaten others with displays of force. We believe that such threats of harm are honorable and desirable among upstanding citizens. We give people like Elliot Rodger access to guns because we believe that is a good way for Americans to deal with their insecurities.

    ......


    The problem is that America has a culture that teaches that threatening and harming others and forcing them to bend to your will by physical force is a desirable and honorable means of solving problems.

    John Wayne made a career out of this. Elliot Rodger was just doing what we taught him. He fought back against his demons with physical violence against the people who were failing to give him what he wanted. He compensated for his insecurities by arming himself.

    .....


    But we need to stop teaching these people that violence and the threat of violence is an honorable, desirable, and patriotically American means of dealing with their problems.
    Nailed it.

  24. #24

    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    What's to spin. The NRA and pro-gun nuts who oppose any reasonable regulation of firearms know that the absence of regulation will cause gun deaths. They just don't care.

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    His parents did realize the gravity of the situation.

    This man was a beneficiary of privilege and was under as extensive a treatment regimen for mental health issues as exists anywhere in the world. That it did not prevent him from murdering 6 people is not at all surprising. The technology does not exist to recognize when or if a person will act in a lethal manner towards other people.
    So I will repeat my question. How did he physically gain access to a gun, especially if his parents realized the gravity of the situation.
    Telling it like it is.

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Why is that a shock considering that a lot of quick mass murderers(Virginia Tech and the Batman theater shooting being the best examples) had access to guns when they also had clear and concise psychological deficiencies? The system has been broken for a long time, and even if his parents(or parent) had a "handle" on things, supposedly, it's obviously not all that hard to get a gun, and, it seems, it's not all that hard to hide one.

    I just find it funny - in an alarmingly new spin - that Faux News thinks he killed because he feared he might be gay. I have no desire to watch his videos to find out, but I find it more alarming that the police saw them and decided not to act in a day and age where simply announcing a crime on Twitter gets a SWAT team beating down your door.
    "As anarchism rears its face,

    They are answered by an iron fist..."

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by MoufOfKhaos View Post
    I just find it funny - in an alarmingly new spin - that Faux News thinks he killed because he feared he might be gay.
    Faux (not news) will always look for an excuse to discredit and condemn us or anyone else they don't like.
    Last edited by chrisrobin; May 26th, 2014 at 07:51 AM.

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    So I will repeat my question. How did he physically gain access to a gun, especially if his parents realized the gravity of the situation.
    He legally purchased the guns, from what I've read, in three different cities from licensed federal firearms dealers who all did the required background checks.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    So I will repeat my question. How did he physically gain access to a gun, especially if his parents realized the gravity of the situation.
    There is nothing about mental illness that restricts a person from buying a gun.

    Nor can there ever be.

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    Either way, he clearly had a lot of mental health issues and it's a shame that his parents never realized the gravity of the matter. I guess his father was too busy making movies. How someone in his condition got access to guns is truly beyond me.
    He could legally buy guns because Congress would rather play politics with firearms than exercise their Article I Section 8 authority -- and responsibility -- to provide for the discipline of the militia.

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    Bottom line is that nothing will be done. Society is too immune to these incidents at this point and the NRA simply will not be challenged for political reasons. These incidents will actually continue with remarkable frequency, I feel.
    The NRA supports legislation to do something about this. Of course since they support it, no liberal will ever vote for it -- they're just like the Tea Partites in that.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    His parents did realize the gravity of the situation.

    This man was a beneficiary of privilege and was under as extensive a treatment regimen for mental health issues as exists anywhere in the world. That it did not prevent him from murdering 6 people is not at all surprising. The technology does not exist to recognize when or if a person will act in a lethal manner towards other people.
    I'm not sure such technology is even possible. But we have sufficient "technology" that this guy could have been stopped -- his therapists and parents knew he was a danger, and that should have been enough to bar him from buying weapons of any sort.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    In America, we believe that people have a right to threaten others with displays of force. We believe that such threats of harm are honorable and desirable among upstanding citizens. We give people like Elliot Rodger access to guns because we believe that is a good way for Americans to deal with their insecurities.
    False -- and you know it. Threatening, brandishing, etc. are crimes everywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The problem is that America has a culture that teaches that threatening and harming others and forcing them to bend to your will by physical force is a desirable and honorable means of solving problems.

    John Wayne made a career out of this. Elliot Rodger was just doing what we taught him. He fought back against his demons with physical violence against the people who were failing to give him what he wanted. He compensated for his insecurities by arming himself.
    John Wayne partially made his career out of it, unless you want to include being a soldier or lawman in your paradigm.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    There are tens of thousands of people out there who do provocative things like threatening violence against others, but never proceed to actually hurting people. It is not reasonable to try to jail all these people, nor would that be helpful. The technology does not exist to know when a dangerous person becomes unacceptably dangerous.
    Threatening violence is a crime in most places. Are you seriously recommending we don't enforce those laws?
    Yelling at someone in a threatening manner gets prosecuted as assault even if there's no physical contact.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    But we need to stop teaching these people that violence and the threat of violence is an honorable, desirable, and patriotically American means of dealing with their problems.
    There's a more basic element here: America dearly holds to the notion that we have to win. Settling peacefully isn't a consideration for many, many people because it isn't winning -- which for an allegedly Christian nation is particularly idiotic; OTOH it does explain a lot of Christianist positions: they've elevated winning to an unstated dogma.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    What's to spin. The NRA and pro-gun nuts who oppose any reasonable regulation of firearms know that the absence of regulation will cause gun deaths. They just don't care.
    The NRA supports legislation that would have kept this guy from getting firearms.

    They are also correct that regulating firearms is contrary to the Second Amendment. The Constitution grants no authority to regulate firearms -- what it does grant, though, is the authority to provide for the discipline of the militia. Congress has neglected that duty, so all these deaths are on their hands.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    So I will repeat my question. How did he physically gain access to a gun, especially if his parents realized the gravity of the situation.
    Congress said he could buy them. Despite the fact that he was manifestly unfit to be part of a well-regulated militia, Congress doesn't care enough to deal with the problem. On the one hand, we have people who don't even want to spend money on making the highways safe, so they're certainly not going to vote for spending money even to do what the NRA recommends, while on the other hand we have people who deny that the Second Amendment means what it plainly does, so they're not going to vote in favor of anything actually based on the Constitution to deal with this. So we're in a limbo created by politicians who care more about the carpets in their offices than the lives of their constituents.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    There is nothing about mental illness that restricts a person from buying a gun.

    Nor can there ever be.
    Wrong. Someone with a degree of mental illness that makes him a danger to self and others is manifestly unfit to be a member of an active militia. Given that, Congress has the authority, under the power to provide or the discipline of the militia, to forbid such a person from acquiring a firearm.

    Besides that Article I Section 8 authority, it's implicit in the Second Amendment: no person so severely mentally unbalanced can possibly be a part of a "well-regulated", meaning trained and disciplined and responsible, militia.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by MoufOfKhaos View Post
    I just find it funny - in an alarmingly new spin - that Faux News thinks he killed because he feared he might be gay.
    What would have been news is if Fox had interviewed a psychiatrist who thought a straight mass murderer had issues with sex.

    That said, Fox's position is contradictory. They imply this mass murderer might have been homosexual because he hated himself, even as Fox advocates discrimination against homosexuals to shame them into straightness.


    Quote Originally Posted by MoufOfKhaos View Post
    I have no desire to watch his videos to find out, but I find it more alarming that the police saw them and decided not to act in a day and age where simply announcing a crime on Twitter gets a SWAT team beating down your door.
    It's not that the police did not act. They investigated Rodger three times before the killings. The cops did what they could. The videos were not posted until just before Rodger killed.

    The technology does not exist to predict when a person - mentally ill or otherwise - becomes dangerous.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; May 26th, 2014 at 11:37 AM.

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    "If I can't have you...girls....I will destroy you"

    http://gawker.com/heres-disturbing-v...con-1581050371

    One seriously disturbed young man.

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Wrong. Someone with a degree of mental illness that makes him a danger to self and others is manifestly unfit to be a member of an active militia. Given that, Congress has the authority, under the power to provide or the discipline of the militia, to forbid such a person from acquiring a firearm.
    Congress may have the authority to prohibit dangerous people from acquiring firearms, but science does not have the ability to determine who is dangerous. Therefore, you cannot restrict the rights of these people to bear arms until after they have killed.

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I'm not sure such technology is even possible. But we have sufficient "technology" that this guy could have been stopped -- his therapists and parents knew he was a danger, and that should have been enough to bar him from buying weapons of any sort.
    Almost all of the recent mass murderers in America have been under some kind of therapy for mental/medical issues.

    None of them were stopped beforehand, because none of them were recognized as particularly dangerous. Because medical science has no way to determine that, except in retrospect.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    False -- and you know it. Threatening, brandishing, etc. are crimes everywhere.
    Wearing a firearm on your waistband is threatening a person with violence. Period.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    John Wayne partially made his career out of it, unless you want to include being a soldier or lawman in your paradigm.
    Not to pick on Wayne, but he made quite a career out of being the guy who forces everyone else to do what he wants by threat of violence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Threatening violence is a crime in most places. Are you seriously recommending we don't enforce those laws?

    Yelling at someone in a threatening manner gets prosecuted as assault even if there's no physical contact.
    Wearing a firearm is threatening violence. If there is no chance that you will use it, why are you carrying it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    There's a more basic element here: America dearly holds to the notion that we have to win. Settling peacefully isn't a consideration for many, many people because it isn't winning -- which for an allegedly Christian nation is particularly idiotic; OTOH it does explain a lot of Christianist positions: they've elevated winning to an unstated dogma.
    Correct. America has a culture of solving problems through violence.

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    There are tens of thousands of people out there who do provocative things like threatening violence against others, but never proceed to actually hurting people. It is not reasonable to try to jail all these people, nor would that be helpful. The technology does not exist to know when a dangerous person becomes unacceptably dangerous.

    But we need to stop teaching these people that violence and the threat of violence is an honorable, desirable, and patriotically American means of dealing with their problems.
    Never claimed it did. I was just stating that giving up even more of our privacy rights and allowing the government to monitor us even more won't change that. It will just give them more power to abuse.

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Saw on Fox one of there experts blames it on the gay culture for the killings. She must be related to Pat Robertson.

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Wrong. Someone with a degree of mental illness that makes him a danger to self and others is manifestly unfit to be a member of an active militia. Given that, Congress has the authority, under the power to provide or the discipline of the militia, to forbid such a person from acquiring a firearm.

    Besides that Article I Section 8 authority, it's implicit in the Second Amendment: no person so severely mentally unbalanced can possibly be a part of a "well-regulated", meaning trained and disciplined and responsible, militia.
    Would you support a minimum age for using firearms then? If responsibility is a part of the equation, the government is surely within its Article I Section 8 authority to deny those under a 'set' age from using firearms.


    On other issues i've read. The idea of docking salaries in the aftermath of such gun assaults is fundamentally unfair. Try telling retail workers that loss prevention will be compensated for by docking wages whenever a shoplifter gets away with it...
    Shifting blame is not the answer, prevention is the only answer.

    Then there is the issue that whilst this particular case and others like it can potentially be prevented by focusing on tight controls (and actually enforcing them), would it have had any impact on the cop who shot that cinema patron in the 'popcorn/text' incident? No. And fundamentally, this is where the government ability to exercise its Article I Section 8 authority becomes difficult, since there is clearly nobody that can be deemed truly responsible, not even law enforcement personnel, that ANY kind of criteria could be applied to gauge whether that part of militia suitability is present.
    The compromise, in light that you can't be absolute in assertaining who is responsible enough and who isn't, is not to simply forget about this part of the equation, as the current status does, but to strike out anyone who shows themself not to be responsible. Anyone with a criminal record could be denied a firearms permit, anyone with even a caution for domestic abuse. It could even start from schooling, where if your involved in bullying, that would go on record to prevent you from obtaining a firearm later on in life. It wouldn't have to be a permanent thing, much like a bankrupt with a poor credit rating will eventually be able to get credit at some point down the line, the same sort of test could be applied in fulfilling responsibility requirements for gun permits.

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    ?? Motorcycle Racing Associations?
    men's rights activists

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    There is nothing about mental illness that restricts a person from buying a gun.

    Nor can there ever be.
    Couldn't disagree more. I suppose people who feel this way are content with these types of incidents to occur continuously.
    Telling it like it is.

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Guns don't kill people, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE!!!

    REGULATE PEOPLE WITH GUNS!!!!
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    Well, I watched his video Retribution, and one of his other videos. He did have an effeminate quality to him. It does make me wonder whether he was actually secretly gay and simply didn't accept it.
    To me it sounded like he was just slow to realize that nice guys finish last.

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Guns don't kill people, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE!!!

    REGULATE PEOPLE WITH GUNS!!!!
    So what do you propose on the Mental Health issue, then? I hear this viewpoint, but rarely do I hear solutions for those that want to focus on the Mental Health issue.
    Telling it like it is.

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post

    Wearing a firearm is threatening violence. If there is no chance that you will use it, why are you carrying it?
    Exactly.

    ...

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by MystikWizard View Post
    So what do you propose on the Mental Health issue, then? I hear this viewpoint, but rarely do I hear solutions for those that want to focus on the Mental Health issue.

    Are you fucking kidding? If you'd care to you'd hear solutions all the fucking time, the only "solutions" that appear to be acceptable unfortunately are the ones that ignore your very concern.

    Google the fuck out of it and you will find a thousand "solutions," unless of course you happen to be La Pierre's butt boy in which case you will hear no "solutions" fair nor foul.
    Last edited by TX-Beau; May 26th, 2014 at 09:53 PM.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by bike10 View Post
    Saw on Fox one of there experts blames it on the gay culture for the killings. She must be related to Pat Robertson.
    Fox's "experts" remind me of the old joke that an expert is a "drip under pressure".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: California Shooting: The spin begins

    Quote Originally Posted by DreamTeam View Post
    Would you support a minimum age for using firearms then? If responsibility is a part of the equation, the government is surely within its Article I Section 8 authority to deny those under a 'set' age from using firearms.


    On other issues i've read. The idea of docking salaries in the aftermath of such gun assaults is fundamentally unfair. Try telling retail workers that loss prevention will be compensated for by docking wages whenever a shoplifter gets away with it...
    Shifting blame is not the answer, prevention is the only answer.

    Then there is the issue that whilst this particular case and others like it can potentially be prevented by focusing on tight controls (and actually enforcing them), would it have had any impact on the cop who shot that cinema patron in the 'popcorn/text' incident? No. And fundamentally, this is where the government ability to exercise its Article I Section 8 authority becomes difficult, since there is clearly nobody that can be deemed truly responsible, not even law enforcement personnel, that ANY kind of criteria could be applied to gauge whether that part of militia suitability is present.
    The compromise, in light that you can't be absolute in assertaining who is responsible enough and who isn't, is not to simply forget about this part of the equation, as the current status does, but to strike out anyone who shows themself not to be responsible. Anyone with a criminal record could be denied a firearms permit, anyone with even a caution for domestic abuse. It could even start from schooling, where if your involved in bullying, that would go on record to prevent you from obtaining a firearm later on in life. It wouldn't have to be a permanent thing, much like a bankrupt with a poor credit rating will eventually be able to get credit at some point down the line, the same sort of test could be applied in fulfilling responsibility requirements for gun permits.
    Going back before there even were English colonies in North America, only those criminals who had engaged in violence were deemed incompetent to bear arms -- and even they could be rehabilitated (which is still true in quite a number of states). It takes a little digging, but competence limitations considered a part of the militia concept can be tracked down.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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