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  1. #51
    Cold November Rain Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    Get over yourself. You're not the only one who is capable of looking at the issue and giving a serious opinion.
    I don't think it can be denied that I know more than you do about this issue, and that I am way more involved in and aware of the current facts and trajectory of marriage equality in the federal courts.

  2. #52
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    I don't think it can be denied that I know more than you do about this issue, and that I am way more involved in and aware of the current facts and trajectory of marriage equality in the federal courts.
    Oh you do eh? You said one year right? I'll bet you $100 right here and now that national marriage equality will not exist yet on May 22, 2015.

  3. #53
    Cold November Rain Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    Oh you do eh? You said one year right? I'll bet you $100 right here and now that national marriage equality will not exist yet on May 22, 2015.
    Yes, I do.

    By the end of next term which will be the last week in June 2015.

  4. #54
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Yes, I do.

    By the end of next term which will be the last week in June 2015.
    Deal. Get ready to lose a Benjamin.

  5. #55
    Cold November Rain Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    Deal. Get ready to lose a Benjamin.
    Get ready to eat crow pie.

  6. #56
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Get ready to eat crow pie.
    We'll see. In the meantime, I'm content to have successfully dispatched your ridiculous assertion that my opinion is not a serious one.

  7. #57
    Cold November Rain Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    We'll see. In the meantime, I'm content to have successfully dispatched your ridiculous assertion that my opinion is not a serious one.
    Except you haven't, and there are many reasons why.

  8. #58
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Except you haven't, and there are many reasons why.
    Sure I have. I think you are confusing serious with correct. Obviously only one of us can be correct. Let me help you with a definition.

    se·ri·ous

    acting or speaking sincerely and in earnest, rather than in a joking or halfhearted manner.

  9. #59
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    halfhearted manner.
    Due diligence towards research. That is what I have done.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by scream4ever View Post
    We already are there if you count the states with stayed rulings (61-62%).
    Stayed ruling can't count.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  11. #61
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Stayed ruling can't count.
    There are those fascinated with even the most inconsequential minutiae.

  12. #62
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Schuylkill County has filed a motion to intervene and appeal.

    http://www.equalitypa.org/wp-content...ss-release.pdf
    Last edited by Alnitak; June 6th, 2014 at 04:28 PM.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    One of the reasons that she is seeking to intervene in this case is
    to obtain clarity about her official duties.

    http://www.equalitypa.org/wp-content...ss-release.pdf
    Uh, sure....
    Last edited by opinterph; June 6th, 2014 at 06:52 PM. Reason: added link to attribution

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Schuylkill County has filed a motion to intervene and appeal.

    http://www.equalitypa.org/wp-content...ss-release.pdf
    Don't see it going anywhere but you knew there was no way the bigots weren't going to do something to try and stop this.

  15. #65
    Cold November Rain Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    Don't see it going anywhere but you knew there was no way the bigots weren't going to do something to try and stop this.
    Our enemies will forgo no opportunity, motion, appeal, petition, etc. of any kind to stop us. Singularly obsessed with gays like some creepy stalker.

    I am dismayed the rural Appalachian county is home to the Yuengling factory, my cheap go to beer. Then again it is a rural Appalachian county. No surprise.

    The county's chance at intervention is stronger than NOM's, so we shall see...
    Last edited by Alnitak; June 6th, 2014 at 09:05 PM.

  16. #66
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Our enemies will forgo no opportunity, motion, appeal, petition, etc. of any kind to stop us. Singularly obsessed with gays like some creepy stalker.
    ...
    In their minds they're battling for the survival of their country.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  17. #67
    Cold November Rain Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    In their minds they're battling for the survival of their country.
    It is a very complex personality trait I have been trying to comprehend.

    There are a myriad reasons why people are opposed homosexuality. I suppose it boils down to the way we think. The caveman human brain is highly evolved to interpret and establish social rules, and some people are just very protective of them without thinking very much about how unfair they can be. It is also a heuristic thinker; we accept intuition, feelings, and quick judgments before reason. I understand when people say we are destroying their culture/society/country, it is not literal, rather it is a destruction of their vision of the way society should be, rigid, unchangeable, especially when they are not the object of abuse. To conservatives, rigid social rules are like a favorite chair. If you change the upholstery, their world is inexplicably ruined.

    We are also tribal. Gays are the "others." It also explains why politics is so similar to sports. We root for our teams, and our favorite players can do no wrong.

    However, exactly why certain people become obsessive stalkers, methinks that is rooted in pathology.
    Last edited by Alnitak; June 6th, 2014 at 09:33 PM.

  18. #68
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    At best, I suppose I could see them (grudgingly) giving her intervener status, but I'm not sure they'll stay the matter as the state is fully reconciled to continue issuing licenses. Her statements so clearly indicate "I'm a bigot who wants to play Grinch" that even the most conservative judge couldn't avoid seeing that.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    It is a very complex personality trait I have been trying to comprehend.

    There are a myriad reasons why people are opposed homosexuality. I suppose it boils down to the way we think. The caveman human brain is highly evolved to interpret and establish social rules, and some people are just very protective of them without thinking very much about how unfair they can be. It is also a heuristic thinker; we accept intuition, feelings, and quick judgments before reason. I understand when people say we are destroying their culture/society/country, it is not literal, rather it is a destruction of their vision of the way society should be, rigid, unchangeable, especially when they are not the object of abuse. To conservatives, rigid social rules are like a favorite chair. If you change the upholstery, their world is inexplicably ruined.

    We are also tribal. Gays are the "others." It also explains why politics is so similar to sports. We root for our teams, and our favorite players can do no wrong.

    However, exactly why certain people become obsessive stalkers, methinks that is rooted in pathology.
    Some one of five Americans really believes that if the Supreme Court allows gay marriage, then God will destroy the country. It's as real and obvious to them as flowing egg white comes when you crack open an egg.

    Of course, what they don't learn from history... the same was said of ending slavery, and mixed marriages, and undoing Prohibition....
    Last edited by Kulindahr; June 6th, 2014 at 10:06 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  20. #70

    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by JackinSea View Post
    At best, I suppose I could see them (grudgingly) giving her intervener status, but I'm not sure they'll stay the matter as the state is fully reconciled to continue issuing licenses. Her statements so clearly indicate "I'm a bigot who wants to play Grinch" that even the most conservative judge couldn't avoid seeing that.
    Based on her request, it does not appear she is requesting a stay of the ruling (saying she will continue issuing license to same-sex couples), and that she doesn't want to overturn the law, but simply wants clarification. Marriage equality isn't going anywhere in Pennsylvania, trust me.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Maybe I'm cynical, but I feel she was put up to it by NOM, or their ilk. She is (they are), indeed, interested in a Hail Mary pass at overturning this decision, with stay. She meant she will issue licenses without a (hoped for) order otherwise, rather than lose her job, if the circuit grants her status, without a stay; she means that she's not willing to lose her job in defying the current order in saying she'll "continue" issuing licenses.
    Last edited by JackinSea; June 7th, 2014 at 09:37 AM.

  22. #72

    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by JackinSea View Post
    Maybe I'm cynical, but I feel she was put up to it by NOM, or their ilk. She is (they are), indeed, interested in a Hail Mary pass at overturning this decision, with stay. She meant she will issue licenses without a (hoped for) order otherwise, rather than lose her job, if the circuit grants her status, without a stay; she means that she's not willing to lose her job in defying the current order in saying she'll "continue" issuing licenses.
    That's not what I read at all.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by JackinSea View Post
    Maybe I'm cynical, but I feel she was put up to it by NOM, or their ilk. She is (they are), indeed, interested in a Hail Mary pass at overturning this decision, with stay. She meant she will issue licenses without a (hoped for) order otherwise, rather than lose her job, if the circuit grants her status, without a stay; she means that she's not willing to lose her job in defying the current order in saying she'll "continue" issuing licenses.
    More likely she was put up to it by the Alliance Defending Freedoms, a far right legal group who thinks religious beliefs should be allowed to trump laws.
    They were all over the place in NY telling clerks they could refuse to do their jobs and give licenses to gay couples if they didn't want to.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Our enemies will forgo no opportunity, motion, appeal, petition, etc. of any kind to stop us. Singularly obsessed with gays like some creepy stalker.

    I am dismayed the rural Appalachian county is home to the Yuengling factory, my cheap go to beer. Then again it is a rural Appalachian county. No surprise.

    The county's chance at intervention is stronger than NOM's, so we shall see...
    It is stronger but let's hope it gets the same response that NOM got.
    As for your other post, you are indeed correct. Our enemies will NEVER miss a chance to hurt us. It's why I"m still on guard despite all the gains we've made.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Is it her county taxpayer who is the legal team filing her request, or a group of ... outside lawyers?

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    More likely she was put up to it by the Alliance Defending Freedoms, a far right legal group who thinks religious beliefs should be allowed to trump laws.
    I actually agree with that group on one small item: purely religious businesses should be allowed to follow their beliefs.

    But when I say purely, I mean it: it has to be dealing in religious goods and/or services, be entirely staffed by people of that religion and aimed primarily at people of that religion. So a religious supply store catering to Catholics wouldn't have to comply while one making cakes for weddings would... unless there happen edto be a religion where wedding cakes are part of doctrine, and...

    No, that's silly.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    Our enemies will NEVER miss a chance to hurt us. It's why I"m still on guard despite all the gains we've made.
    They can't, at least not the religiously-driven ones. Even though they're reading the Bible wrong to arrive at their doctrine, to not pursue every possible defence of it would, in their eyes, be betraying God.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    I imagine we'll get a response to this pretty quickly.
    I'll say this, there are way too many people who fail to understand this country isn't a theocracy judging by the resonses on her facebook page.

  29. #79

    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    I imagine we'll get a response to this pretty quickly.
    I'll say this, there are way too many people who fail to understand this country isn't a theocracy judging by the resonses on her facebook page.
    The deadline is June 19th, so that's indeed likely.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    I am dismayed the rural Appalachian county is home to the Yuengling factory, my cheap go to beer.
    Yuengling is my expensive, special occasion beer.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by scream4ever View Post
    The deadline is June 19th, so that's indeed likely.
    There is a federal issue involved but I have a feeling she'll get smacked down the same way the clerk who started issuing licenses on his own last year did.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Yuengling is my expensive, special occasion beer.
    Lol I call a case of 24 for 17 a cheap beer.

  33. #83

    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    There is a federal issue involved but I have a feeling she'll get smacked down the same way the clerk who started issuing licenses on his own last year did.
    True. Also, if her claim is simply that she needs clarification (and isn't even requesting a stay of the ruling), then judge Jones will likely see it as frivilous and a waste of taxpayer dollars.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Lol I call a case of 24 for 17 a cheap beer.
    I can get 30 Milwaukee's Best Ices for $13.49.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    I imagine we'll get a response to this pretty quickly.
    I'll say this, there are way too many people who fail to understand this country isn't a theocracy judging by the resonses on her facebook page.
    ... and think that because some don't want it to be a theocracy, they think they're being persecuted.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    ... and think that because some don't want it to be a theocracy, they think they're being persecuted.
    Indeed, between that and their arrogance in thinking their point of view is the only way, gets on my nerves.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by scream4ever View Post
    True. Also, if her claim is simply that she needs clarification (and isn't even requesting a stay of the ruling), then judge Jones will likely see it as frivilous and a waste of taxpayer dollars.
    She's requesting to intervene but in PA, as in a couple of other states, I"m pretty sure individual clerks don't have standing.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    Indeed, between that and their arrogance in thinking their point of view is the only way, gets on my nerves.
    There's something more to it than that, but I can't put my mental finger on it at the moment. It has to do with the fact that I've known more than a few who weren't arrogant at all, but had this immense mental blank spot such that when told something like, "No, Genesis doesn't say the earth is only a few thousand years old", they get a look on their faces like someone had just said, "We have tides because the earth wobbles" or "Birthday cakes have candles because they're really bombs", or something else so far from reality it just doesn't really register. And others are beyond that, to where they basically don't even hear things that contradict their worldview.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    I can get 30 Milwaukee's Best Ices for $13.49.
    Does it fall off the back of a truck?

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2014/06/j...-sex-marriage/
    Judging by this, I have a feeling the clerk is going to get denied.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2014/06/j...-sex-marriage/
    Judging by this, I have a feeling the clerk is going to get denied.
    Well it's certainly not timely, but it can't be ignored that two clerks are appellants to the neighboring 4th Circuit.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2014/06/j...-sex-marriage/
    Judging by this, I have a feeling the clerk is going to get denied.
    It occurs to me that the only way the argument he references, that allowing gay marriage will harm other marriage, can only be possible if somehow everyone in the United States was linked together in some huge spiritual energy such that when people see something they think contrary to what they think is good, they're less likely to follow the good themselves.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Well it's certainly not timely, but it can't be ignored that two clerks are appellants to the neighboring 4th Circuit.
    It varies from state to state. I know in Oregon Li v Kennedy made it clear clerks didn't have standing. I think that is the case in PA as well.

  43. #93

    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    It varies from state to state. I know in Oregon Li v Kennedy made it clear clerks didn't have standing. I think that is the case in PA as well.
    In Virginia I believe they were constitutional clerks as opposed to simply county clerks, and the 4th Circuit may very well rule that they do not have standing at that.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by scream4ever View Post
    In Virginia I believe they were constitutional clerks as opposed to simply county clerks, and the 4th Circuit may very well rule that they do not have standing at that.
    We'll have to see, I didn't see standing as an issue there. I would say this clerk's other problem is she wasn't a party from the start unlike the clerks in VA.

  45. #95

    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    We'll have to see, I didn't see standing as an issue there. I would say this clerk's other problem is she wasn't a party from the start unlike the clerks in VA.
    Regardless, the deadline for the ruling is the 19th, so if Jones rules against her, that's it.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    We'll have to see, I didn't see standing as an issue there. I would say this clerk's other problem is she wasn't a party from the start unlike the clerks in VA.
    I agree that's a bigger issue.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    It varies from state to state. I know in Oregon Li v Kennedy made it clear clerks didn't have standing. I think that is the case in PA as well.
    These are federal cases; it will be up to the judge not the state.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2014/06/j...-sex-marriage/
    Judging by this, she isn't going to have much luck.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    These are federal cases; it will be up to the judge not the state.
    You keep saying that, but I have yet to see a situation where a federal court granted standing to represent a state when the state said they lack standing.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You keep saying that, but I have yet to see a situation where a federal court granted standing to represent a state when the state said they lack standing.
    But they have denied when a state said yes.

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