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  1. #1
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Late last night, the ACLU of Pennsylvania announced that Federal Judge John E. Jones III will release a decision in Whitewood v. Wolf by the end of the day today.

    http://www.aclupa.org/takeaction/eve...n-day-rallies/

    Judge Jones was appointed by President George W. Bush and confirmed in 2002. He is a member of the United States District Court for the Middle District of Pennsylvania based in Harrisburg. Unexpected for a Bush appointee, he is most prominently known for striking down the Dover Area School District's intelligent design curriculum in public schools. Kitzmiller (2005).

    Because of that particular ruling and the trend in federal courts, most court watchers expect another victory for marriage equality. The ruling will possibly be stayed and appealed to the US Court of Appeals for the 3rd Circuit based in Philadelphia. However, Pennsylvania is also litigating against Clerk Hanes at the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania, and being sued in two consolidated cases set for hearing on June 18. Those cases could be decided before an appeal is finalized in federal court.

    For tomorrow's announcement, the ACLU will host rallies in four cities.

    There is no telling which one will be the largest, but the court is based in Harrisburg and Philadelphia is the state's largest city.

    • Philadelphia - North side of City Hall at 5 p.m.
    • Pittsburgh - 5800 block of Ellsworth at 7 p.m.
    • Erie - Perry Square at 7 p.m.
    • Harrisburg - Capitol at 6 p.m. <====== I will be attending this one.


    An unstayed ruling for the plaintiffs will place Pennsylvania as the 21st state to issue licenses, the final state of the Northeast, and the only one to issue them presently without statewide protections for LGBTs against discrimination. It will also be the 26th state to have marriage equality or a judicial order to do so, making it at last a majority of states.
    Last edited by Alnitak; May 20th, 2014 at 01:38 AM.

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    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    One more thing, final briefs in this case were filed on May 12, so the judge took seven days to finish his ruling after final arguments. That's a record technically beating Judges Candy Dale in Idaho (8 days) and Arenda Wright Allen in Virginia (9 days). The announcement was made late at night. Clearly he is very motivated.

  3. #3
    ecce homo rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    My fingers are crossed.

    I see Pennsylvania as being a keystone state.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Keeping the fingers crossed that he'll do the right thing again.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    I expect any positive decision in Pennsylvania will immediately be stayed.

    Pennsylvania has a Republican governor, a Republican House, and a Republican Senate. They will not allow justice to visit Pennsylvania.

    We await some decision by SCOTUS.

  6. #6
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Decision expected after 2 p.m. according to the court website.

    http://www.pamd.uscourts.gov/?q=news...ay-may-20-2014


    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    I expect any positive decision in Pennsylvania will immediately be stayed.

    Pennsylvania has a Republican governor, a Republican House, and a Republican Senate. They will not allow justice to visit Pennsylvania.

    We await some decision by SCOTUS.
    There is no way for SCOTUS to rule before Hanes is decided.
    Last edited by Alnitak; May 20th, 2014 at 08:47 AM.

  7. #7
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    My fingers are crossed.

    I see Pennsylvania as being a keystone state.
    The real keystone along the East Coast has shifted down to Maryland since the Civil War, and Virginia is looking more and more like it is becoming the new keystone between North and South. Pennsylvania is like a drunk uncle. It doesn't really belong categorized with the Northeast politically, except for Philadelphia, whose suburbs spill over into New Jersey, though once upon a time most of the state's population was closer to the Delaware River.
    Last edited by Alnitak; May 20th, 2014 at 09:06 AM.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    There is no way for SCOTUS to rule before Hanes is decided.
    The losing side in the Pennsylvania case was expected to appeal to the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Philadelphia.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/d...uling-23789409
    I'm sorry to say it, but I don't think Pennsylvania gay marriage is going anywhere, at the moment.

    An appeal will immediately be made to the 3rd district, which will likely grant a stay.

    Nothing will happen until SCOTUS (some day) rules on this.

  9. #9

    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    I'm sorry to say it, but I don't think Pennsylvania gay marriage is going anywhere, at the moment.

    An appeal will immediately be made to the 3rd district, which will likely grant a stay.

    Nothing will happen until SCOTUS (some day) rules on this.
    The Hanes case is pending before the state supreme court though, and will likely be heard an have a decision handed down by the end of the year, thus beating the federal courts to the punch.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    A federal judge has just ruled Pennsylvania's ban on gay marriage unconstitutional.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5358491.html

    Let the stays begin.

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    ecce homo rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality



    In his opinion, Judge John E. Jones III said, “In the sixty years since Brown was decided, ‘separate’ has thankfully faded into history, and only ‘equal’ remains. Similarly, in future generations the label same-sex marriage will be abandoned, to be replaced simply by marriage. We are a better people than what these laws represent, and it is time to discard them into the ash heap of history.”
    http://www.aclupa.org/news/2014/05/2...me-sex-couples

    This is such great news today.
    Last edited by rareboy; May 20th, 2014 at 12:09 PM.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    I liked judge John E. Jones' opinion:

    "We are a better people than what these laws represent, and it is time to discard them into the ash heap of history."


    http://www.thewire.com/politics/2014...-today/371247/
    Last edited by T-Rexx; May 20th, 2014 at 12:19 PM.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Those are smackdown words as far as I'm concerned. These decisions keep continuing to trash the DOMA defenders.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Limited access to a computer today. Oh well. Exciting day for everyone!

    Rue Landau and Kerry Smith


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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality


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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    My fingers are crossed.

    I see Pennsylvania as being a keystone state.
    Cute.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Cute.
    Some day I will discover how you get around the 10 char rule.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Corbett, in the past, has compared gay marriage to incest and to marriage between children.

    I will be surprised if he doesn't appeal this.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Corbett, in the past, has compared gay marriage to incest and to marriage between children.

    I will be surprised if he doesn't appeal this.
    I expect him to intervene as well, but you never know.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    ^ The sad thing is, he will probably get yet another stay.

    Gay marriage is going nowhere until SCOTUS rules on it.

  21. #21
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post

    Gay marriage is going nowhere until SCOTUS rules on it.
    That's not exactly correct.

    Oregon will not be stayed or appealed, and there are several states with lawsuits at the state level, including Arkansas as you know, but also Pennsylvania, Colorado, Florida, Wyoming, and Wisconsin.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    You would think that the governor, who is up for re-election this year, would have jumped all over this to help his chances of winning

  23. #23
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by smokeshadow View Post
    You would think that the governor, who is up for re-election this year, would have jumped all over this to help his chances of winning
    The religious right has a death grip on the GOP.

  24. #24
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Corbett, in the past, has compared gay marriage to incest and to marriage between children.

    I will be surprised if he doesn't appeal this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    I expect him to intervene as well, but you never know.
    It will all depend on politics, not on any convictions on the matter.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  25. #25
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    ^ The sad thing is, he will probably get yet another stay.

    Gay marriage is going nowhere until SCOTUS rules on it.
    My bet is that nearly three-fifths of the population will be living in equal-marriage states before SCOTUS bites. Then they can claim they were persuaded by the states.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; May 20th, 2014 at 06:51 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    The religious right has a death grip on the GOP.
    Maybe it's slipping -- some Tea Party candidates are losing.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  27. #27

    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    I expect him to intervene as well, but you never know.
    I honestly think that considering he didn't ask for a stay immediately, it could be a good sign that he will not appeal the ruling.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by scream4ever View Post
    I honestly think that considering he didn't ask for a stay immediately, it could be a good sign that he will not appeal the ruling.
    Well he merely said he "anticipates" having a statement ready this morning. We'll see. He has 30 days.

  29. #29
    ecce homo rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    ^ Who knows. They may still be looking for something that will make the request ironclad......

    There is a danger in waiting the 30 days though. By that time, the State then will have so many homos married that it becomes increasingly impossible to unwind all of that...it only gives the homos more ammunition in any further appeal. Taking back what courts have already granted is increasingly difficult.

  30. #30

    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    My bet is that nearly three-fifths of the population will be living in equal-marriage states before SCOTUS bites. Then they can claim they were persuaded by the states.
    We already are there if you count the states with stayed rulings (61-62%).

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    ^ Who knows. They may still be looking for something that will make the request ironclad......

    There is a danger in waiting the 30 days though. By that time, the State then will have so many homos married that it becomes increasingly impossible to unwind all of that...it only gives the homos more ammunition in any further appeal. Taking back what courts have already granted is increasingly difficult.
    The waiting period will expire Friday; until then couples must get waivers. Even these would be painful for any court to nullify. The train has left the station and the Supreme Court's hands are tied. It would be too much to undo now, and that's what they get for punting.

    Nobody seriously believes that the US is more than a year away from nationwide marriage equality. We are in a dead heat with Ireland to be the first country of 2015 to do it.
    Last edited by Alnitak; May 21st, 2014 at 09:00 AM.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by scream4ever View Post
    We already are there if you count the states with stayed rulings (61-62%).
    Exactly three-fifths, my count has it 60.3% including stayed rulings. Slight variations will occur due to estimates since the 2010 census.

  33. #33
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Frankly, I think Corbett is weighing the political cost of this, figuring that a few marriages that are in limbo while on circuit appeal may be the way to go in the end.

    I cannot see a situation where all but one or two circuits uphold, and the Supremes take the case and say, "Yeah, it's a 'states' rights' issue after all, so you couples in those few states are just out of luck - sorry!" I'd be more surprised if they did take 4 and/or 10 next term, than if they simply declined and left the circuit-wide rulings alone (for now).

  34. #34
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Corbett will not appeal!

    touch.towleroad.com/tlrd/

    All that remains to be seen is if one of the clerks will try. Ruling is final in 30 days.

    I will try to find out more later but again no computer access. Hoping around apps is difficult.

  35. #35

    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Corbett will not appeal!

    touch.towleroad.com/tlrd/

    All that remains to be seen is if one of the clerks will try. Ruling is final in 30 days.

    I will try to find out more later but again no computer access. Hoping around apps is difficult.
    Can they even intervene at this point since it would be on appeal?

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    ecce homo rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    "I have thoroughly reviewed Judge Jones' opinion in the Whitewood case. Given the high legal threshold set forth by Judge Jones in this case, the case is extremely unlikely to succeed on appeal. Therefore, after review of the opinion and on the advice of my Commonwealth legal team, I have decided not to appeal Judge Jones' decision.

    "As a Roman Catholic, the traditional teaching of my faith has not wavered. I continue to maintain the belief that marriage is between one man and one woman. My duties as Governor require that I follow the laws as interpreted by the Courts and make a judgment as to the likelihood of a successful appeal."
    Finally....a governor that understands that their own faith does not dictate the mores and laws of their state.

    Clerks would be idiots to try to appeal. But NOM will likely be pushing for one to try it on.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    How much time and effort is required for an appeal? That will probably be a big factor in whether any clerk is going to consider it worth it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Nobody seriously believes that the US is more than a year away from nationwide marriage equality.
    Sure they do. I don't believe the appellate record will be sufficiently developed this summer for the SC to take a case in this coming fall term. So I think the earliest we will see a final ruling on that will be summer 2016.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    As I said before, I'm not convinced SCOTUS would take an appeal of a pro-marriage ruling from a circuit, but wait to see if there are any anti-marriage reversals that cause a nationwide conflict. I can't see the 3rd circuit taking an appeal from a NOM-like entity, and if they did, after what happened in Oregon, they wouldn't stay PA marriages. I'm sure Corbett has been on the phone with outraged Catholic honchos etc. telling them, "What part of 'AN APPEAL IS A CERTAIN LOSER' don't you understand?"

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    ^ Exactly, they are going to want to wait as long as possible, either for a circuit split, or until one circuit just outright refuses to grant an equality ruling.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    Sure they do. I don't believe the appellate record will be sufficiently developed this summer for the SC to take a case in this coming fall term. So I think the earliest we will see a final ruling on that will be summer 2016.
    I don't think that's serious at all if you really knew this issue.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Finally....a governor that understands that their own faith does not dictate the mores and laws of their state.

    Clerks would be idiots to try to appeal. But NOM will likely be pushing for one to try it on.
    Good.

    Scrutiny has never been determined by the 3rd Circuit. It would take an idiot from their side to make the perfect case to set that precedent.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by scream4ever View Post
    Can they even intervene at this point since it would be on appeal?
    If they are subject to a court order, plausibly.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    ^ Exactly, they are going to want to wait as long as possible, either for a circuit split, or until one circuit just outright refuses to grant an equality ruling.
    I don't think they'll "wait as long as possible", but I don't think they're just going to jump at it either. But once the issue has been addressed by over half the circuits, I don't see how they can really put it off -- unless they go the route of just letting the circuits decide it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  44. #44
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Good.

    Scrutiny has never been determined by the 3rd Circuit. It would take an idiot from their side to make the perfect case to set that precedent.

    - - - Updated - - -



    If they are subject to a court order, plausibly.
    Hopefully, the federal court will ask the state if NOM can legitimately represent them, the state will say, "Like hell!", and the court will tell NOM to go play with their toys.


    So to speak.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    I think if the 10th and 4th rule in our favor, SCOTUS will wait it out until other circuits rule.
    The 5th and 8th will def rule against us.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by JackinSea View Post
    I'm sure Corbett has been on the phone with outraged Catholic honchos etc. telling them, "What part of 'AN APPEAL IS A CERTAIN LOSER' don't you understand?"
    I doubt that Corbett declined to appeal because of the fact that appeal is a certain loser. While it IS a certain loser, of course, I expected him to appeal because he is up for re-election in November; he happens to be in trouble; and he needs to turn out his base (which remains profoundly homophobic).

    Most people are saying he declined appeal because he does not want to give Democrats an issue that will bring them to the polls in November. That's an interesting analysis. If true, it implies that Corbett and his people think that Democrats are more passionate in favor of gay marriage than Republicans are opposed to it. That runs contrary to the conventional wisdom, and hints that Republicans may be fatiguing on homophobia as a campaign issue.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    I doubt that Corbett declined to appeal because of the fact that appeal is a certain loser. While it IS a certain loser, of course, I expected him to appeal because he is up for re-election in November; he happens to be in trouble; and he needs to turn out his base (which remains profoundly homophobic).

    Most people are saying he declined appeal because he does not want to give Democrats an issue that will bring them to the polls in November. That's an interesting analysis. If true, it implies that Corbett and his people think that Democrats are more passionate in favor of gay marriage than Republicans are opposed to it. That runs contrary to the conventional wisdom, and hints that Republicans may be fatiguing on homophobia as a campaign issue.
    It shows you have the tide has turned. Being against marriage equality is actually a loser at the polls now in many places.

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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Most people are saying he declined appeal because he does not want to give Democrats an issue that will bring them to the polls in November. That's an interesting analysis. If true, it implies that Corbett and his people think that Democrats are more passionate in favor of gay marriage than Republicans are opposed to it. That runs contrary to the conventional wisdom, and hints that Republicans may be fatiguing on homophobia as a campaign issue.
    Republicans are more likely to vote in an off-year anyway; Democrats only get motivated by an issue.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  49. #49
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    I doubt that Corbett declined to appeal because of the fact that appeal is a certain loser. While it IS a certain loser, of course, I expected him to appeal because he is up for re-election in November; he happens to be in trouble; and he needs to turn out his base (which remains profoundly homophobic).

    Most people are saying he declined appeal because he does not want to give Democrats an issue that will bring them to the polls in November. That's an interesting analysis. If true, it implies that Corbett and his people think that Democrats are more passionate in favor of gay marriage than Republicans are opposed to it. That runs contrary to the conventional wisdom, and hints that Republicans may be fatiguing on homophobia as a campaign issue.
    Hey. Whatever it takes.

    If plain old politics is what it gets to achieve homo rights and 'smart' republicans finally see that there isn't any advantage to flogging this issue in the mid-terms.....then good.

  50. #50
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    Re: ACLU Announces Decision Time for Pennsylvania Marriage Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    I don't think that's serious at all if you really knew this issue.
    Get over yourself. You're not the only one who is capable of looking at the issue and giving a serious opinion.

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