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  1. #101
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I had read that, plus there are countless documents indicating that eyes followed people or heads appeared to try to mouth words post-beheading. Very creepy.
    Replace the blade with a hydraulic ram; replace the neck as target with the head.

    The ram can squash the entire head to mush in less time than the eyes could tell the brain it was coming, if the subject was face-up.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  2. #102
    O Hushed October Morning Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    There is no execution method that is fail safe, and because execution is irreversible, there can be no guarantees that it is exercised without violating due process. Capital punishment is on its way out, as it was in Europe generations ago.

  3. #103
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    There is no execution method that is fail safe, and because execution is irreversible, there can be no guarantees that it is exercised without violating due process. Capital punishment is on its way out, as it was in Europe generations ago.
    And prison slave labor is replacing it -- much more profitable.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  4. #104

    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    The death penalty is wrong and should be abolished. It has no place in our society.

  5. #105
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Replace the blade with a hydraulic ram; replace the neck as target with the head.

    The ram can squash the entire head to mush in less time than the eyes could tell the brain it was coming, if the subject was face-up.
    Should I be worried that you've thought about it this much?

  6. #106

    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    There is no execution method that is fail safe, and because execution is irreversible, there can be no guarantees that it is exercised without violating due process. Capital punishment is on its way out, as it was in Europe generations ago.
    How many states have had the death penalty, abolished it, and then brought it back?

    Yeah, the death penalty is going out in the US. Uh-huh.
    Don't do scat, kids. It means you're a Republican.

  7. #107
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    It's deeply depressing that a first world country has the death penalty...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  8. #108
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Should I be worried that you've thought about it this much?
    It's sort of a carry-over from another thread, which I won't name because it's a carry-over from another thread.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  9. #109
    JUB Addict cocksucker4use's Avatar
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Some thoughts:
    1. There is no correlation between capital punishment and the number of capital offenses. Killing criminals does not dis-
    courage or reduce killing. It just kills killers...very OT, Sharia.
    2. The irony of Right Wingers who are Pro Life and Pro Capital Punishment has been noted.
    3. Fucking up an execution is stupid. Anesthetize the victim like your gonna take out their appendix and either: crank the gas and/or open up the potassium chloride. Painless, and guaranteed effective.
    4. OK, ethically the deal is that nobody wants to do the deed, like a doc, nurse, anybody who could do it right. They have a lind started and use all these seemingly ineffective drugs through a pump with a remote switch...first, do no harm.

  10. #110
    Dejavudoo
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by sixthson View Post
    I wonder how long the 19 year old woman suffered before she died from being buried alive?
    An apt response to the "are we savages" question. The Left is too quick to argue the side of the criminal's rights and ignore injustice served to the victim and the victim's family.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    In other words, murder is a horrifically unacceptable crime.

    Which we will punish with murder.
    Hardly. That is a willful misuse of a legal term. The state lawfully takes the life of citizens when the law of the people demands it. You may disagree with the law, but you may not negate its legality with mere opinion. Any reading of "cruel and unusual punishment" as the very definition of execution is plainly incorrect in the interpretation of the U.S. Constitution. At the time of the authoring of the Constitution, the states universally executed prisoners and prima facie did not deem it cruel and unusual, but just.

    The lawful termination of life by the state as punishment for crime is execution, not murder. Murder is the unlawful taking of human life.

    The notion that execution is uncivil is simply wrong headed. Imprisonment itself is uncivil. Civility isn't really the question at hand. When people violate the law, their own rights, BY LAW, immediately become abrogated in many ways, and by the will of the people.

    The same injunction goes against those who use the term to describe the killing of animals. They are not murder victims, but subject to slaughter, not murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    But do we have to be the ones who kill? I think not.

    The purpose of punishment is not just to get even. Justice is much more than that.
    As the framers of human society, we do indeed have to make the decisions that end in death. We do so in myriad ways every day, be it policies on poverty, highway regulation, worker safety, or criminal justice.

    The redefinition of punishment to exclude retribution is an invalid rewrite of the criminal code. As you know, a great deal of the criminal code is indeed written to exact retribution, to financially restore damages done as well as imprison malefactors. That there is a competing social justice ethos that rejects the historical practice does not therefore negate the ongoing legal practice of justice.

    To your point, human life can be noble, can be aspiring, can be uplifting, but any honest observer will also insist on admitting its depravity, its insidious slide into the violent and selfish, and its propensity to commit evil acts.

    The executed prisoner was not willfully treated worse because of his skin color nor his crime. The execution did not work as planned, but there is no evidence of intent by the State. His horrific crime would not adequately be addressed if he had been willfully tortured for a year. He is less than contemptible, and no convenient philosophic argument will redeem his acts.

    May his curse be that his crimes will always be remembered as his death is discussed. His victim deserves no less justice.
    Last edited by Dejavudoo; May 16th, 2014 at 05:06 AM.

  11. #111
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    An apt response to the "are we savages" question. The Left is too quick to argue the side of the criminal's rights and ignore injustice served to the victim and the victim's family.
    No, we don't. We just don't believe that it's ethical to somehow determine some kind of commensurate retaliatory torture to sentence the criminal with and have the state administer it on the basis that "their victim suffered this much." Nor does the Constitution.

  12. #112
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    No, we don't. We just don't believe that it's ethical to somehow determine some kind of commensurate retaliatory torture to sentence the criminal with and have the state administer it on the basis that "their victim suffered this much." Nor does the Constitution.
    But all we ever do is retaliatory torture. Redefine it all we might, locking people up for a chunk of their lives is torture.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  13. #113
    Dejavudoo
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    No, we don't. We just don't believe that it's ethical to somehow determine some kind of commensurate retaliatory torture to sentence the criminal with and have the state administer it on the basis that "their victim suffered this much." Nor does the Constitution.
    Tell the truth and shame the Devil.

    You most certainly DO believe it's ethical to mete out retaliatory punishment. You imprison the criminal in solitary, in rape-prone environments, with gang rule, and guards who are often as corrupt as the inmates. You know that rehabilitation is statistically a rarity, so you incarcerate FOR punishment, not rehabilitation. All this talk of deterrent in regards to death penalty is a sham, as you know prison itself is no deterrent either.

    The Constitution was pretty silent to sentencing as it was written in a time in which life imprisonment, slave labor, forced labor, and execution were all givens in the culture of the time. Reading otherwise is pure revisionism.

    And not least of all, your system denies justice to the dead, and to the dead's family. The deceased is entitled to retribution by the hand of the state. Writing off their murders as "too bad" is not justice. The wrong is NOT redressed.
    Last edited by Dejavudoo; May 16th, 2014 at 06:04 PM.

  14. #114
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    Tell the truth and shame the Devil.

    You most certainly DO believe it's ethical to mete out retaliatory punishment. You imprison the criminal in solitary, in rape-prone environments, with gang rule, and guards who are often as corrupt as the inmates. You know that rehabilitation is statistically a rarity, so you incarcerate FOR punishment, not rehabilitation. All this talk of deterrent in regards to death penalty is a sham, as you know prison itself is no deterrent either.

    The Constitution was pretty silent to sentencing as it was written in a time in which life imprisonment, slave labor, forced labor, and execution were all givens in the culture of the time. Reading otherwise is pure revisionism.

    And not least of all, your system denies justice to the dead, and to the dead's family. The deceased is entitled to retribution by the hand of the state. Writing off their murders as "too bad" is not justice. The wrong is NOT redressed.
    Xbuzzer did all of that? My, he has been a busy boy. You make it difficult to take you seriously, you are by turns strident, preachy, condescending and presumptuous. You've told Buzzer what he thinks feels and believes, very curious, do you live in his head?

    Plus you seem to have this idea that the FF's were old testament style hang'em high looney tuners. Strange.

    They believed that it was better to let a hundred guilty men go free than convict one innocent man. They aren't responsible for the culture they were raised in and DID try to make the US legal system more equitable and fair than it had been under the English. But forget that since they were obviously responsible for slavery and torture. They have sins enough without making up sins for which to crucify them.

    Plus that whole red herring about caring more about the "criminals" rights, well the "victim," has the whole weight of the state on his side, doesn't have to pay lawyers, investigate, hire experts, pay the police - on the strength of accusation WE pick up the bill for all of it, he has the whole weight of the state and resources of the taxpayer on his side, I'd say he was pretty damn well represented; and since you were getting so precious about definitions, there IS NO CRIMINAL until there is CONVICTION, just accused PRESUMED by the FF's who were so incredibly cruel to be innocent. Perhaps you disagree with this?

    The "criminal's" rights we protect, are my rights, and yours and everyone else's - perhaps though you'd like to live in a state where the accuser has all the rights and the accused has none at all?
    Last edited by TX-Beau; May 16th, 2014 at 07:13 PM.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  15. #115
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Plus you seem to have this idea that the FF's were old testament style hang'em high looney tuners. Strange.

    They believed that it was better to let a hundred guilty men go free than convict one innocent man.
    They aren't responsible for the culture they were raised in and DID try to make the US legal system more equitable and fair than it had been under the English. But forget that since they were obviously responsible for slavery and torture. They have sins enough without making up sins for which to crucify them.
    Jefferson once said even a thousand. But the hundred saying was standard doctrine at the time. It grew out of a juror preference to let go men accused by the crown when here was any doubt at all, or when they thought the sentence or law was unjust. But the principal carried over -- I'm not sure when it began to fade, but it's a great loss to the Republic.

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Plus that whole red herring about caring more about the "criminals" rights, well the "victim," has the whole weight of the state on his side, doesn't have to pay lawyers, investigate, hire experts, pay the police - on the strength of accusation WE pick up the bill for all of it, he has the whole weight of the state and resources of the taxpayer on his side, I'd say he was pretty damn well represented; and since you were getting so precious about definitions, there IS NO CRIMINAL until there is CONVICTION, just accused PRESUMED by the FF's who were so incredibly cruel to be innocent. Perhaps you disagree with this?

    The "criminal's" rights we protect, are my rights, and yours and everyone else's - perhaps though you'd like to live in a state where the accuser has all the rights and the accused has none at all?
    It's also swinging back; there are now circumstances under Oregon law when the right to face one's accuser is denied -- though IMO the hole "State v." nonsense, which is a carry-over from royal law, is a dodge in the first place. In addition, in Oregon at any rate you can be required to pay full restitution to a damaged party (e.g. in vandalism), pay a fine of equal size, and on top of that do jail time -- something the Founders would have considered paying three times for one thing, something they also abhorred.

    Also on the victims' side is the fact that prosecutors will throw a dozen charges for one action -- a tactic to get plea bargains to sail through -- which the Founders also found abhorrent.

    All in all, we're much harsher and more cruel than they were, despite the whippings and stocks and all -- which I could argue were indeed more humane than stealing long portions of people's lives an requiring those people to undergo the hell of prison.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  16. #116
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Saw a pic of Jack Kevorkian the other day. Thought of this thread. Seems like his formula worked OK.

  17. #117
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    A Utah state representative, Paul Ray, (R-Clearfield), will introduce a bill into the next Utah house legislative session to bring firing squads back to Utah.

    Utah last used the firing squad in 2010, to execute Ronnie Lee Gardner. Five state police sharpshooters pumped four rounds of lead into Gardner's heart from 0.30 Winchester rifles. Utah has a long history with the firing squad - 40 of its last 49 executions were accomplished by firing squad. The technique was outlawed throughout the United States (and even in Utah in 2004) because it is regarded as outdated, inhumane, excessively violent, prone to error, and stressful for the sharpshooters.


    http://guardianlv.com/2014/05/execut...d-more-humane/

  18. #118
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    A Utah state representative, Paul Ray, (R-Clearfield), will introduce a bill into the next Utah house legislative session to bring firing squads back to Utah.

    Utah last used the firing squad in 2010, to execute Ronnie Lee Gardner. Five state police sharpshooters pumped four rounds of lead into Gardner's heart from 0.30 Winchester rifles. Utah has a long history with the firing squad - 40 of its last 49 executions were accomplished by firing squad. The technique was outlawed throughout the United States (and even in Utah in 2004) because it is regarded as outdated, inhumane, excessively violent, prone to error, and stressful for the sharpshooters.


    http://guardianlv.com/2014/05/execut...d-more-humane/
    You'd have to pay me at least a quarter of a million bucks to be part of a firing squad.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  19. #119
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    In other words, murder is a horrifically unacceptable crime.

    Which we will punish with murder.

    The best way to limit suffering in a society is to create more of it.
    Quite a few people think that leaving the guy alive who murdered the 19yr old would create more of it. It wasn't an accident. My problem isn't with the idea of capitol punishment, my problem is with how and why it's being enforced in situations. Then again, I also think the prison system needs to be drastically overhauled. But killing someone who killed someone in that situation? Can't say I'd feel guilty, no.

    That said, I don't agree with suffering. Someone else prolly loves 'em, not nice to hurt their feelings more'n necessary. Just use a bullet or a well made rope and quit trying to pretend you're not killing anybody.
    If I blow your mind, do you promise not to think in my mouth? - Unknown

  20. #120
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    And prison slave labor is replacing it -- much more profitable.
    Oh good, someone else noticed.
    If I blow your mind, do you promise not to think in my mouth? - Unknown

  21. #121
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You'd have to pay me at least a quarter of a million bucks to be part of a firing squad.
    It was eliminated in part because of the stress it caused to the executioners.

    But, America has a taste for blood. We will revisit that which we have already rejected as unacceptable, because we have need for the act of killing people. It is part of our national character.

  22. #122
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post
    Oh good, someone else noticed.
    I've noticed, too - long ago. It would even be an "out" that Republicans could use in their campaigns. They could boast that they've brought more than one million jobs BACK TO THE UNITED STATES. All they have to do is set up assembly lines inside the prisons, and the for-profit prison companies (like CCA), which I sometimes call Incarcerations-R-Us, are in a win-win situation. These prison companies also often require states to sign contracts guaranteeing a minimum occupancy rate.

    It is VERY profitable to gather and incarcerate more and more prisoners.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

    VOTING: Just remember: "Be careful of what you DON'T wish for. You might just get it." GET OUT AND VOTE for what you DO wish for.

    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony

  23. #123
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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by luckynumbah7 View Post
    Quite a few people think that leaving the guy alive who murdered the 19yr old would create more of it. It wasn't an accident. My problem isn't with the idea of capitol punishment, my problem is with how and why it's being enforced in situations. Then again, I also think the prison system needs to be drastically overhauled. But killing someone who killed someone in that situation? Can't say I'd feel guilty, no.

    That said, I don't agree with suffering. Someone else prolly loves 'em, not nice to hurt their feelings more'n necessary. Just use a bullet or a well made rope and quit trying to pretend you're not killing anybody.
    I do have philosophical issues with capital punishment, it isn't a deterrent, it isn't justice. That said people are generally surprised to discover that I also think there are some people who just need to die. I know it's judgmental, but if you rape an murder and will never stop, I see no logical reason to keep you around and pay for your upkeep. Of course forcing a society to pay for it's criminals is a way to stimulate a desire to prevent crimes.

    If we create a financial incentive to imprison people, what do we all think is going to happen?

    So much for Ivory Tower pretensions. My main argument against the DP is the extremely fallible and prejudicial nature of people, and the justice system they inhabit.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: Botched Execution in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    I've noticed, too - long ago. It would even be an "out" that Republicans could use in their campaigns. They could boast that they've brought more than one million jobs BACK TO THE UNITED STATES. All they have to do is set up assembly lines inside the prisons, and the for-profit prison companies (like CCA), which I sometimes call Incarcerations-R-Us, are in a win-win situation. These prison companies also often require states to sign contracts guaranteeing a minimum occupancy rate.

    It is VERY profitable to gather and incarcerate more and more prisoners.
    They also want a prison population that isn't serious offenders, the guy with the joint, not the serial murderer and rapist. Harsher sentences for lesser crimes.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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