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  1. #1
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    Israel: An Apartheid State?

    Secretary of State John Kerry has been recorded as saying that Israel risks becoming an apartheid state if a two-state solution is not reached between Israel and the Palestinians.

    If there’s no two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict soon, Israel risks becoming “an apartheid state,” Secretary of State John Kerry told a room of influential world leaders in a closed-door meeting Friday.

    Senior American officials have rarely, if ever, used the term “apartheid” in reference to Israel, and President Obama has previously rejected the idea that the word should apply to the Jewish state. Kerry's use of the loaded term is already rankling Jewish leaders in America—and it could attract unwanted attention in Israel, as well.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...eid-state.html
    Kerry also warned that the failure of the current Middle East peace talks brings the risk of a resumption of violence.

    In a sense this comparison was presaged and made obvious by former President Jimmy Carter, who used the term "apartheid" when speaking of Israel and of Gaza and the West Bank.

    A tour d'horizon is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_...rtheid_analogy

    The American Israeli lobby, as well as Israel, is sure to be inflamed.

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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State

    Further reaction at http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...lks-john-kerry :

    The Emergency Committee for Israel, whose chairman is the prominent neo-conservative William Kristol, said: "On Friday, secretary of state John Kerry raised the spectre of Israel as an 'apartheid state'. Even Barack Obama condemned the use of this term when running for president in 2008. It is no longer enough for the White House to clean up after the messes John Kerry has made. It is time for John Kerry to step down as secretary of state, or for President Obama to fire him."
    I cannot imagine Kerry's statement was not run by the White House.

    May Kerry's remarks also be as much for Saudi consumption as general comment?

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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State

    Uh oh.

    John going rogue?

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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State

    WTF?

    Wanting two different states for two different sets of people is more an apartheid approach than is what Israel has. What's Kerry been smoking?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State

    Kerry is playing with fire.

  6. #6

    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    I was going to start a new thread stating that Kerry must resign.

    The reason -- Kerry speaks for the Administration -- whether is a a mistake or one of his common statements like ... "I voted for it before I voted against it." A simple apology will not work -- if the President doesn't request his resignation then it reinforces the common held belief that this how he feels about Israel.

    Israel has enough problems than having the US SOS going rouge saying that they are racist.

    Webster defines apartheid as "a former social system in South Africa in which black people and people from other racial groups did not have the same political and economic rights as white people and were forced to live separately from white people".

    Kerry evidently has not been following all the concessions that Israel has given and offered to give -- including giving Palestinians the OK to form their own state. He was a Senator for many years and yet doesn't understand the complexity of the situation or why there is not a peaceful existence in the region.

    From Kerry's comments it appears that the Administration is now going in the direction of supporting the Muslim faction and further isolating the US from Israel.

    Instead of orchestrating peace talks Kerry seems to be in the business of adding fuel to the fire.

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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I was going to start a new thread stating that Kerry must resign.

    The reason -- Kerry speaks for the Administration -- whether is a a mistake or one of his common statements like ... "I voted for it before I voted against it." A simple apology will not work -- if the President doesn't request his resignation then it reinforces the common held belief that this how he feels about Israel.

    Israel has enough problems than having the US SOS going rouge saying that they are racist.

    Webster defines apartheid as "a former social system in South Africa in which black people and people from other racial groups did not have the same political and economic rights as white people and were forced to live separately from white people".

    Kerry evidently has not been following all the concessions that Israel has given and offered to give -- including giving Palestinians the OK to form their own state. He was a Senator for many years and yet doesn't understand the complexity of the situation or why there is not a peaceful existence in the region.

    From Kerry's comments it appears that the Administration is now going in the direction of supporting the Muslim faction and further isolating the US from Israel.

    Instead of orchestrating peace talks Kerry seems to be in the business of adding fuel to the fire.
    This convinces me that we seriously dodged a bullet when he didn't get into the White House.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I was going to start a new thread stating that Kerry must resign.

    The reason -- Kerry speaks for the Administration -- whether is a a mistake or one of his common statements like ... "I voted for it before I voted against it." A simple apology will not work -- if the President doesn't request his resignation then it reinforces the common held belief that this how he feels about Israel.

    Israel has enough problems than having the US SOS going rouge saying that they are racist.

    Webster defines apartheid as "a former social system in South Africa in which black people and people from other racial groups did not have the same political and economic rights as white people and were forced to live separately from white people".

    Kerry evidently has not been following all the concessions that Israel has given and offered to give -- including giving Palestinians the OK to form their own state. He was a Senator for many years and yet doesn't understand the complexity of the situation or why there is not a peaceful existence in the region.

    From Kerry's comments it appears that the Administration is now going in the direction of supporting the Muslim faction and further isolating the US from Israel.

    Instead of orchestrating peace talks Kerry seems to be in the business of adding fuel to the fire.
    Yeah Tzipi Livini, Ehud Olmert, and Ehud Barak were all jew haters that despised the Jewish state. .

    Do these talking points you retype come directly from Ted Cruz's asshole?

    The problem with Israel is exactly this, if you talk truth they get butt hurt and begin to whimper around the globe.

    http://972mag.com/tzipi-livni-joins-...id-club/74951/
    Last edited by JayHawk; April 28th, 2014 at 10:00 PM.
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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    WTF?

    Wanting two different states for two different sets of people is more an apartheid approach than is what Israel has. What's Kerry been smoking?
    Bullshit, two states is the only solution. One state is apartheid or holocaust.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Kerry is playing with fire.
    I think it was quite purposeful. No matter how much walking back occurs now, they knew it was going to blow up both parties when he said it, that was the point. Right now they are headed for nothing, just like the same pace they have been on since 1937.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Right now they are headed for nothing, just like the same pace they have been on since 1937.
    So long as there are right wing governments on both sides. Palestine has a lot of attributes of a state already. The healing process will begin once an agreement is reached by more reasonable governments especially regarding Jerusalem, and it looks like Israel will have to make some very painful compromises to that end, but territoriality the Palestinians are out of luck. Had organized and forceful Palestinian Arab nationalism existed in British Palestine during the 1940s, they would have asked for, and gotten, a much better deal than they will ever get now. Instead, the erstwhile Turkish land meant for a Palestinian Arab state was snapped up by Arab neighbors, the original "occupiers," a fact often ignored by Israel's detractors. The PLO movement for an independent state in 1974 came too late, after the 1967 war, by which time Arafat was facing the Israelis instead of Egypt and Jordan.
    Last edited by Alnitak; April 28th, 2014 at 10:46 PM.

  11. #11
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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    Fatah in the West Bank is more secular than the religious right Hamas, more aligned with old style left wing nationalists like Egypt's old government and Syria.... the hard left is pretty anti-Israel, or as they hypocritically justify that position "anti- Zionist" though there is a heavy influx of anti-Jewish animus. Ironically on the Christian far right you have a lot of anti-Semitism but also a substantial pro-Israel wing, though that faction is motivated much more by evangelism and Christian fundamentalist "end times" fervor than anything else. Israel's right wing government is of course a substantial problem and in its heavy handedness on the settlement issues and in treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank but a right wing governmemt led by fierce Israeli nationalist Menachem Begin gladly achieved peace with Egypt and returned territories captured in war, and evicted many settlers. Also the fiery right winger Ariel Sharon moved substantially to the middle and bucked the hard right of Likud and formed a centrist peace party... Palestinian leadership NEVER in recent years proved a truly willing peace partner and before his death the miserable bastard Yasir Arafat condemned his people to more second class status by doing everything he could to stand against a real peace, a true two state solution. The current leader in the West Bank Mahmoud Abbas is so weak even if he truly desired peace, and meant what he said recently about the horrors of the Jewish Holocaust, is in no condition politically to deliver peace of any kind. I highly doubt Hamas really will anytime soon either, no matter what the unity talk with Fatah. Right now things on both sides still appear to be aligned against peace, though both sides really need it.

    Alnitak is spot on regarding that the Palestinians originally were screwed by their own fellow Arabs, who of course dutifully out of their own hatefulness and overall Machiavellian purposes played the Palestinian card as solely victimization by the big bad Israelis. Funny how the Arabneighbors of the Palestinians have been very willing to subjugate rather than liberate the Palestinians in their own territories. Abba Eban, the great Labor Party foreign minister of Israel once famously remarked of the Palestinians that they never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

    Israel in the end will stare down their settlement zealots and give up a lot for the sake of peace but two things they rightly will never give up.... at least West Jerusalem plus the area around the great Temple and they will never agree to a "right of return" that would flood Israel with Palestinian expatriots and basically overwhelm the concept of a Jewish homeland. The Palestinians can have 95% of the West Bank plus East Jerusalem, best current offer the Israelis and geography can currently offer. I just don't see though where for the short term at least the impetus will be for either side to really go forward go the extra mile for a peace that seems more a foolish illusion than a real goal... until they both want it, and see no other path available, peace is a pipe dream there.
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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    they will never agree to a "right of return" that would flood Israel with Palestinian expatriots and basically overwhelm the concept of a Jewish homeland....
    Nevermind the Jewish character of Israel, an influx of Palestinian expatriots would undo its western values, high level of human development, and democratic liberalism. The culture of Arab Muslims is just not developed enough to allow a stable liberal democracy to function, not to mention their understanding of human rights, equitable treatment of religious minorities, women, and LGBTs is radically different than Israel's.

    I just don't see though where for the short term at least the impetus will be for either side to really go forward go the extra mile for a peace that seems more a foolish illusion than a real goal... until they both want it, and see no other path available, peace is a pipe dream there.
    It's relatively peaceful now, but there is nothing preventing a third intifada.

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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Nevermind the Jewish character of Israel, an influx of Palestinian expatriots would undo its western values, high level of human development, and democratic liberalism. The culture of Arab Muslims is just not developed enough to allow a stable liberal democracy to function, not to mention their understanding of human rights, equitable treatment of religious minorities, women, and LGBTs is radically different than Israel's.



    It's relatively peaceful now, but there is nothing preventing a third intifada.
    It's certainly not that liberal democracy could never succeed in a Muslim state but it's going to take time to take root... in most of the developing world stability and traditions are emphasized more than individual liberties and freedoms especially for women and religious and LGBT minorities. Ironically one of the best candidates for fairly rapid liberalization would be currently theocratic Iran, with its educated population with a high professional and technological representation.
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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    It's certainly not that liberal democracy could never succeed in a Muslim state but it's going to take time to take root...
    The Enlightenment was over 200 years ago and we are fighting today's battles for freedom. Despite the Arab Spring, the Muslim world has not had either. Sadly I think liberalism will not reach the Middle East in my lifetime.

    in most of the developing world stability and traditions are emphasized more than individual liberties and freedoms especially for women and religious and LGBT minorities.
    There are two strong correlations that work in tandem - birth rate and religious orthodoxy. Countries that have low birth rates AND religious reform trend towards tolerance, but not one or the other, Russia and Nigeria being obvious examples of having one but not the other, Russia having a low birth rate and Nigeria being Anglican. I am not sure why, although there are some immediately apparent reasons, it is still an area for me to research. A glaring exception is China, which is atheist and has a low birth rate. It is not particularly tolerant of homosexuality.

    Ironically one of the best candidates for fairly rapid liberalization would be currently theocratic Iran, with its educated population with a high professional and technological representation.
    North Korea as well is a severely totalitarian state with high levels of human capital. If it liberalized the North Korean economy would explode, and a unification would be made possible. The US government should be fomenting political reform, but as of late, appears to be incapable of doing so.
    Last edited by Alnitak; April 29th, 2014 at 01:53 AM.

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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    The Enlightenment was over 200 years ago and we are fighting today's battles for freedom. Despite the Arab Spring, the Muslim world has not had either. Sadly I think liberalism will not reach the Middle East in my lifetime.




    I know now that it will never happen in mine, but I hope that since you should have more decades here than I, that you at least see the beginnings of a post-medieval state somewhere in the middle east.

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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Bullshit, two states is the only solution. One state is apartheid or holocaust.
    ....
    In truth, Israel is happy with the current apartheid system, almost to the point of mimicking the historical ghettos of Europe.

    Critics of Israeli policy say that "a system of control" in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, including Jewish-only settlements, the ID system, separate roads for Israeli and Palestinian citizens, military checkpoints, discriminatory marriage law, the West Bank barrier, use of Palestinians as cheap labour, Palestinian West Bank enclaves, inequities in infrastructure, legal rights, and access to land and resources between Palestinians and Israeli residents in the Israeli-occupied territories resembles some aspects of the South African apartheid regime, and that elements of Israel's occupation constitute forms of colonialism and of apartheid, which are contrary to international law.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_...rtheid_analogy , citing, e.g. Report of the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967, John Dugard, A/HRC/4/17, 29 January 2007, pp. 3, 23
    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Nevermind the Jewish character of Israel, an influx of Palestinian expatriots would undo its western values, high level of human development, and democratic liberalism. The culture of Arab Muslims is just not developed enough to allow a stable liberal democracy to function, not to mention their understanding of human rights, equitable treatment of religious minorities, women, and LGBTs is radically different than Israel's.
    ....
    WOW! Fawning much? Talk about bringing enlightenment to the masses. I suppose we should next start "developing" aboriginal tribes.

    I would think that Afghanistan and Iraq would have taught us that establishing Western bastions is an endeavor fraught with peril.

    The problem is that Israel has been cock of the walk for so long it has forgotten what human rights are.

  17. #17

    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Yeah Tzipi Livini, Ehud Olmert, and Ehud Barak were all jew haters that despised the Jewish state. .

    Do these talking points you retype come directly from Ted Cruz's asshole?

    The problem with Israel is exactly this, if you talk truth they get butt hurt and begin to whimper around the globe.

    http://972mag.com/tzipi-livni-joins-...id-club/74951/
    I'm not sure ... are you a self-hating Jew or an anti-Semite? Please be more clear.

    For the record I have no idea of what Ted Cruz has said about the issue or even if he has said anything.

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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    John Kerry apologises for Israel 'apartheid' remarks

    He said that apartheid was "a word best left out of the debate [in the US]" despite the fact that there have been similar warnings from senior Israeli politicians.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...rtheid-remarks
    The word is inflammatory, in spite of its fundamental truth.

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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    Alnitak isn't fawning, he's saying what's true..... most of the Muslim world is NOT ready for democracy... it is not they are incapable but tell me where one currently truly exists? Turkey which unless the ruling Islamic party is voted out sliding away from the semblance of democracy with Premier Erdogan's transformation of the national power structure towards domination by Islamists, which thankfully maybe curtailed by his abuse of power rendering him very unpopular with a lot of segments of the Turkish population. Alnitak was talking about what the right of return would do to the basic character of Israel, which would be to essentially eradicate it.

    Japan moved into the Western orbit after WWII.... straw men about imposing democracy when Alnitak made no such claims. Israel is wrongheaded, misguided about much of what happens in West Bank but much of the problem lies in the intransigence of the Palestinian leadership in both the West Bank( where they pretend an interest in the peace process and the two state solution but give no evidence they really have any desire to make the moves necessary to do so) and Gaza( where Hamas freely amits its outright hostility towards Israel). I don't respect Netanyahu of Israel but the majority of Israel will gladly go for peace, and would gladly end the settlements, if the Palestinians gave ANY concrete moves they support the peace process and accept Israel's right to exist with a Jewish identity. Israel's existence is on the line.... in fact Alnitak has a better handle on the whole situation than any of the armchair pundits here, me included... just grievously misrepresenting where he comes from to indulge one's own ideological proclivities adds nothing to the table here.

    I sense some here think any talk of superiority of Western values is arrogant and imperialistic. I'm not talking about US economics, which certainly is flawed... but the unassailable universal rights of people to be free from oppression from governments... to have basic human rights and have their dignity as individuals respected and valued. That's not just Western, only has taken most root here.....but is for all of humanity.
    Last edited by Sausy; April 29th, 2014 at 08:53 AM.
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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    To be clear, Israel's leadership has to stop with heavy handed tactics.... I'm a huge supporter just as I believe John Kerry is. Friends though, true friends will tell someone what they don't want to hear because it is true and honest. Those who support Israel without a thought towards its excesses do as much harm as those who point a finger at Israel and indict her for EVERYTHING wrong in the region. Israel IS a modern wonder, who would have thought it possible to survive and sustain and "let the desert bloom" after over 65 years? It is NOT perfect and much of what is done in the name of security runs roughshod over the dignity of Palestinian Arabs... the opportunist hack Netanyahu and his enforcers and the settlement pushing parties do a great disservice to a great country which in many other ways shines like a beacon of opportunity with a free press, independent judiciary and the greatest resource of all in its people. I want Israel to be the best of what it can be, and all who are true friends want the same.
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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    WOW! Fawning much? Talk about bringing enlightenment to the masses. I suppose we should next start "developing" aboriginal tribes.
    Indeed a society that hangs gay people I would say needs some developing.

    I would think that Afghanistan and Iraq would have taught us that establishing Western bastions is an endeavor fraught with peril.
    Which is why I said not to allow expatriot Palestinians into Israel, but to remain two states.

    The problem is that Israel has been cock of the walk for so long it has forgotten what human rights are.
    How original.

    Israel is a developed nation full of human capital flight from Europe. It is both technologically advanced and sensitive to human rights.

    You are just as guilty of suckling on the liberal media teat as the conservatives who plug Rush Limbaugh into their ears all day. Try thinking for yourself.

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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Bullshit, two states is the only solution. One state is apartheid or holocaust.
    Separating people because they're different and one is considered lesser is the essence of apartheid. Israel doesn't do that, except to partition off people who don't want to live in peace with them. It has nothing to do with whether "two states is the only solution". Israel does not restrict citizenship by race or skin color or ethnicity or religion, so it isn't practicing apartheid. If anyone is practicing apartheid, it's the Palestinians who want their own state so they can enshrine hatred of Jews in their law.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    The problem is that Israel has been cock of the walk for so long it has forgotten what human rights are.
    Wow . . . how grim, for shaw.

    Israel is sounder on human rights than some parts of the United States.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    Having just read a book on how the Third Reich slowly and determinedly stripped Jews of their rights and personhood, and then slaughtered them, I have to say that Israel must always keep in mind the declaration, "Never again!"

    The nation is a homeland for people who for century upon century had none, and who were constantly turned to as convenient scapegoats for whatever ills came around. If they do not compromise easily, it is because they have learned that no one but themselves can be trusted to look out for them. In a world where they are hated both unofficially and officially by more than a few nations around the globe, it's only sensible to be firm and cautious.

    What baffles me is that the Palestinians haven't stood up and told the terrorists among them who masquerade as politicians and statesmen to take a hike off the edge of a high cliff. If the people got rid of the terrorists hiding among them, the issues could be resolved with ease.

    As for Jerusalem, it should be made an international city which would be allowed to host the "capitals" of both Israel and Palestine.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  25. #25

    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State

    Eventually the Muslim population will exceed the Jewish if the trend continues. At that point it is likely the Israel will become an apartheid state, with either Jews using their residual control to limit the majority, as in South Africa at one time, or the Muslim majority will limit ithe Jewish minority. It is unlikely that they will all play nice.

  26. #26
    Do I dare to eat a peach?
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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    An interesting development in light of the recent "apartheid" brouhaha.

    Netanyahu pushes to define Israel as nation state of Jewish people only
    PM proposes rare change to basic law in response to 'constant and increasing assault' on aspects of Israel's legitimacy

    Binyamin Netanyahu will push ahead with a rare change to Israel's basic laws – which amount to the country's constitution – to insist Israel is "the nation state of one people only – the Jewish people – and of no other people".
    ....
    "The state of Israel provides full equal rights, individual rights, to all its citizens, but it is the nation state of one people only – the Jewish people – and of no other people. And therefore, in order to bolster the status of the state of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people, I intend to submit a basic law that will anchor this status."
    ....
    Among those who have expressed concern over the proposal is the justice minister, Tzipi Livni. Although in favour of defining Israel more clearly in law as "the national home of the Jewish people and a democratic state", she has expressed opposition to "any law that gives superiority" to the Jewish nature of state over the country's democratic values.
    ....
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...l-jewish-state
    Down which road would this take us?

  27. #27
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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    I shall be interested to see how this develops.

    Pope Endorses ‘State of Palestine’ in West Bank Visit

    BETHLEHEM, West Bank — Arriving here on Sunday, Pope Francis made an impassioned appeal for an end to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and gave the Palestinians an uncommon boost by openly endorsing “the State of Palestine.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/26/wo...k.html?hp&_r=0
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...able-west-bank

  28. #28
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    Re: Israel: An Apartheid State?

    ^
    While it's mostly symbolic -- he has to know the Israeli president is a ceremonial figure -- merely speaking the words "State of Palestine" will shift things if only by raising expectations.

    I keep wondering if he'll speak up for Christians being persecuted by Muslims, as well. If he can establish himself as a real mediator, only then will something come of this -- and he has to show that both sides must pursue justice.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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