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  1. #101

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    A couple of hours spent on the subject would make him better qualified than the woman your party ran for Vice-President.
    Palin correctly predicted what would happen if Obama was elected President.

    ... I'm guessing you still believe that Palin said 'I can see Russia from my kitchen window.' Better check SNL.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Palin correctly predicted what would happen if Obama was elected President.

    ... I'm guessing you still believe that Palin said 'I can see Russia from my kitchen window.' Better check SNL.
    Palin's inability to speak competently on absolutely any topic whatsoever in any kind of interview where she wasn't given the ability to prepare answers in advance spoke for itself.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    A couple of hours spent on the subject would make him better qualified than the woman your party ran for Vice-President.
    I've often wondered what he reading speed is.

    I figure another three or four hours and I might be ready for the first midterm for Russian History 101. I do, however, wish I hadn't given up on learning Russian.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Palin's inability to speak competently on absolutely any topic whatsoever in any kind of interview where she wasn't given the ability to prepare answers in advance spoke for itself.
    Sound like you're referring to Obama, who, absent a teleprompter, can't seem to utter a complete sentence. LOL

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Palin correctly predicted what would happen if Obama was elected President.

    ... I'm guessing you still believe that Palin said 'I can see Russia from my kitchen window.' Better check SNL.
    so what did the stoopid kunt have to say about Beorge Bush and the Russian invasion of Georgia that produced no outrage on the Right?

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Sound like you're referring to Obama, who, absent a teleprompter, can't seem to utter a complete sentence. LOL
    Your data sample is extremely limited. Try watching one of his law lectures.

    I think the thing with the teleprompter is that when he's using that it means someone else wrote his speech for him. I've given a speech once in my life that someone else wrote, and I swore never again -- it took me ten times as long to learn the speech as to give it, and that long again to feel comfortable with it. A president gets what time his staff allows him to get ready.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    . Try watching one of his law lectures.

    .
    Now there's a joke, if ever there were one. I'll be you believe he was actually a Constitutional Law professor. However, if you do, you'd be dead wrong. He was a lecturer at most, and if you dig deeply into what his peers thought of his work, you'll fine it eye-opening.

    Obama is a dilettante, plain and simple. Always has been, and always will be.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Now there's a joke, if ever there were one. I'll be you believe he was actually a Constitutional Law professor. However, if you do, you'd be dead wrong. He was a lecturer at most, and if you dig deeply into what his peers thought of his work, you'll fine it eye-opening.

    Obama is a dilettante, plain and simple. Always has been, and always will be.
    Which of his lectures did you watch?

    And BTW, his law school says he was a professor, or at least was entitled to be called one. But no, he wasn't a "constitutional law professor", he was a lecturer in a narrow aspect of constitutional law.

    As for his peers -- link?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Which of his lectures did you watch?
    He didn't. Just like all those idiots who ran around claiming that calls for the destruction of America were in Obama's book, which they all claimed they read.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    And BTW, his law school says he was a professor, or at least was entitled to be called one. But no, he wasn't a "constitutional law professor", he was a lecturer in a narrow aspect of constitutional law.

    ?
    http://www.factcheck.org/2008/03/oba...law-professor/

    Calling Obama a professor is the equivalent of calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist.

    As for his peers, they were quoted in the documentary 'Obama's America 2016' which I'm sure you will instantly decry.

    He's made it abundantly clear during his tenure as president that he has zero respect for the constitution - a rather unusual outlook for a so-called lecturer.
    Last edited by HenryReardon; March 5th, 2014 at 05:34 PM.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    I see Henry has been at the crack again.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    ^ If only.

    More like bath salts.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Seen today on theguardian.com:

    Putin and Obama on the phone:

    Obama: "Let me be very clear..."

    Putin: "Knock, knock"

    Obama: "Who's there?"

    Putin: "Crimea"

    Obama: "Crimea who?"

    Putin: "Crimea river"

  14. #114

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    http://www.factcheck.org/2008/03/oba...law-professor/

    Calling Obama a professor is the equivalent of calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist.

    As for his peers, they were quoted in the documentary 'Obama's America 2016' which I'm sure you will instantly decry.

    He's made it abundantly clear during his tenure as president that he has zero respect for the constitution - a rather unusual outlook for a so-called lecturer.
    A perfect example of his distain for the Constitution is his 30 changes to the UCA.

    Why does Obama hate Obamacare so much?

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Seen today on theguardian.com:

    Putin and Obama on the phone:

    Obama: "Let me be very clear..."

    Putin: "Knock, knock"

    Obama: "Who's there?"

    Putin: "Crimea"

    Obama: "Crimea who?"

    Putin: "Crimea river"

    <groan>
    Last edited by Kulindahr; March 6th, 2014 at 12:46 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    A report from The Guardian's correspondent on the scene. It is more and more likely that Russia's annexation of Crimea is in the cards.

    Ukraine crisis: Crimean MPs' vote to join Russian Federation sparks outrage [theguardian.com]
    Simferopol parliament votes for Crimea to leave Ukraine, as poll that could confirm split is brought forward

    Tension is high and rumours are flying in Crimea, with the Ukrainian foreign ministry in Kiev claiming that Russia is preparing soldiers with Ukrainian uniforms to carry out “provocations” in the region. There is little international presence in the region, after the UN’s special envoy was forced to leave when he was confronted by an angry gang on Wednesday. A bus of 43 unarmed OSCE military observers from 23 countries was denied entry to the peninsula by a checkpoint of armed irregulars on Thursday, and had to turn back.

    The Kremlin’s final goal in Crimea has been murky, with many analysts suggesting Putin would be satisfied with more autonomy or de facto independence for the region, but Thursday’s events appear to suggest that the decision has been taken to annex the region.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    The topic:

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution
    Your post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    A perfect example of his distain for the Constitution is his 30 changes to the UCA.

    Why does Obama hate Obamacare so much?
    Did we miss those brain-on-drugs commercials from the 80's and 90's?

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    ^ In Springer's tiny basement cave obsessive world of Obamahate....all these things are related.

    More Bath Salts?

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    ^ In Springer's tiny basement cave obsessive world of Obamahate....all these things are related.

    More Bath Salts?
    Or paint chips with salsa.

  20. #120
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    A report from The Guardian's correspondent on the scene. It is more and more likely that Russia's annexation of Crimea is in the cards.
    Sad that it isn't hard to believe that Russia would actually resort to false-flag incidents.

    My question is just how much area they're calling "Crimea".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Sad that it isn't hard to believe that Russia would actually resort to false-flag incidents.

    My question is just how much area they're calling "Crimea".
    From what I have read it appears to be only the peninsula. Roadblocks and barricades have been set up at the peninsula's entrance. There are disturbances on mainland eastern Ukraine but no groundswell of Russian troops.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    From what I have read it appears to be only the peninsula. Roadblocks and barricades have been set up at the peninsula's entrance. There are disturbances on mainland eastern Ukraine but no groundswell of Russian troops.
    So, not so much like this:



    I would have expected them to go after the three southeast districts as well, just to have a land connection to the peninsula. Given the voting numbers in the easternmost two of them, that wouldn't be too hard. Or maybe they're thinking of putting in a bridge across the Kerch Strait (where Crimea almost touches Russia)?
    Last edited by Kulindahr; March 6th, 2014 at 04:25 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So, not so much like this:

    Just that area 81.99 and 88.97 surrounded by the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov.

  24. #124

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Given the nature of the present government in Kiev, it doesn’t surprise me in the least that Crimea wants to secede.


    http://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda...ment-far-right

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by EastMed View Post
    Given the nature of the present government in Kiev, it doesn’t surprise me in the least that Crimea wants to secede.


    http://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda...ment-far-right
    Okay, that was just eerie to read! I had a doctor named Svoboda once . . . .

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  26. #126
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    There is an historical context to the current crisis in Ukraine that influences anti Russian sentiments.

    It is noteworthy that Western Ukraine supplied tens of thousands of soldiers for The Third Reich's SS, so vehement was the anti Russian feelings amongst its population in response to the starvation of millions of Ukrainians.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_National_Army

    I quote:

    The primary purpose of creation of the Ukrainian National Army was to integrate all the Ukrainian units fighting the Soviets under a single command. The intended size of the army, encompassing all the Ukrainian units subordinate to Oberkommando des Heeres was 220,000. However within the two months left till the end of the war, Shandruk was able to gather about 50 thousand soldiers.
    http://www.holodomorct.org/history.html

    I quote:

    1933
    By June, at the height of the famine, people in Ukraine are dying at the rate of 30,000 a day, nearly a third of them are children under 10. Between 1932-34, approximately 4 million deaths are attributed to starvation within the borders of Soviet Ukraine. This does not include deportations, executions, or deaths from ordinary causes. Stalin denies to the world that there is any famine in Ukraine, and continues to export millions of tons of grain, more than enough to have saved every starving man, woman and child.
    Last edited by kallipolis; March 7th, 2014 at 02:23 AM.

  27. #127

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    It is difficult to predict what will happen now, with events on the ground continuing to shape the political landscape. Perhaps Russia will negotiate with this odious ‘government’ in Kiev. Otherwise Ukraine’s future will be decided elsewhere.

    As Seamus Milne says:

    What is needed instead is a negotiated settlement for Ukraine, including a broad-based government in Kiev shorn of fascists; a federal constitution that guarantees regional autonomy; economic support that doesn't pauperise the majority; and a chance for people in Crimea to choose their own future. Anything else risks spreading the conflict.
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...raine-fascists

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    I have not explored this question so I ask it naivete but are we trying to make one country out of two? The map at #122 shows a pretty dramatic divide between east - which I understand has such industry as there is - and west - which I understand to be more agrarian. Is the Crimea issue merely evidence of a larger problem: that this "country" isn't ever going to work.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Seamus Milne, the well known apologist for The Kremlin, now attempting to reconcile his all embracing love for Vladamir Putin with the Russian president's attempt to persuade the world that Ukraine's independence can only be guaranteed by accepting a status of neutrality; in other words, by subordinating Ukraine's will for self determination to enforced economic ependence on Russia, with Russia's military presence in the Crimea protecting Ukraine from Western aggression....some protection...some ally....some friend.

    Bizarre kind of independence.

    Funny kind of anti-imperialism being proposed by Comrade Milne when suggesting that only Fascists are responsible for removing a highly corrupt president from office.....suggesting that other Ukrainians are indifferent, or ignorant of their former president's corrupt practices....twelve billion is being touted as a rough estimate.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I have not explored this question so I ask it naivete but are we trying to make one country out of two? The map at #122 shows a pretty dramatic divide between east - which I understand has such industry as there is - and west - which I understand to be more agrarian. Is the Crimea issue merely evidence of a larger problem: that this "country" isn't ever going to work.
    The Russian influence on Ukraine's economy is enormous... but the main preoccupation for Putin is the Russian Naval Base, the status of which has never been threatened by the Ukrainian Government for, it also provides much work for the local population, providing an economic benefit in a country that is very, very poor.

    Crimea was originally part of Russia until 1954 so it could be argued that transferring Crimea back to Russia is a possible option to resolve the crisis, sweetened by a fifty year very cheap Russian gas supply contract to compensate Ukraine for its loss of territory.

    The historical context...similarly in Poland...weighs heavily on the relationship between Non Russian Ukrainians, and Russia.

    Western influence will also impact on Putin's position, for some 60 pct of Russia's external trade is with the European Union.
    Last edited by kallipolis; March 7th, 2014 at 05:51 AM.

  31. #131

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I have not explored this question so I ask it naivete but are we trying to make one country out of two? The map at #122 shows a pretty dramatic divide between east - which I understand has such industry as there is - and west - which I understand to be more agrarian. Is the Crimea issue merely evidence of a larger problem: that this "country" isn't ever going to work.

    Ukraine has been a fragile political entity since independence with the east favouring closer ties with the EU and the west not willing to forego its historically close relationship with Russia at its expense. It has been a delicate balance. The protests in Kiev which toppled the previous corrupt government broke this delicate balance, egged on by the EU and US. Incidentally, every government in Ukraine since independence has been thoroughly corrupt. Indeed if Ukrainians are united on one political issue it is their opposition to pervasive corruption at every level of society.
    Despite this, most Ukrainians share a common cultural heritage with Russia – perhaps this is why the country has not completely collapsed and engaged in civil war.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I have not explored this question so I ask it naivete but are we trying to make one country out of two? The map at #122 shows a pretty dramatic divide between east - which I understand has such industry as there is - and west - which I understand to be more agrarian. Is the Crimea issue merely evidence of a larger problem: that this "country" isn't ever going to work.
    Spot on.

    Ukraine is an unworkable concept.

    Russia has effectively owned the Crimea and eastern Ukraine long before the Soviet Union days.

    After losing it in the Crimean War...gaining it in the 20th century...as I've noted a number of times...Russia will never cede Sebastapol.

    As for the rest of the eastern Ukraine? I guess it will come down to whether they feel that the 'independence' they have as a nation separate from the USSR Russia is as appealing as being a Soviet imperial Russian province...or semi-autonomous region.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I have not explored this question so I ask it naivete but are we trying to make one country out of two? The map at #122 shows a pretty dramatic divide between east - which I understand has such industry as there is - and west - which I understand to be more agrarian. Is the Crimea issue merely evidence of a larger problem: that this "country" isn't ever going to work.
    Those lines actually closely parallel ones back when the Kievan state was fighting (I'm probably mangling these names) the Yatars on it borders (they correspond to the mainland dark bluish area) who in turn were being pressured by some Turks in Crimea.

    The thing that makes that parallel not important (maybe?) is that the populations in the three "zones" were within a handful of percentage points of being identical (OTOH, humans have fought when less was at stake).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Crimea was originally part of Russia until 1954 so it could be argued that transferring Crimea back to Russia is a possible option to resolve the crisis, sweetened by a fifty year very cheap Russian gas supply contract to compensate Ukraine for its loss of territory.

    The historical context...similarly in Poland...weighs heavily on the relationship between Non Russian Ukrainians, and Russia.

    Western influence will also impact on Putin's position, for some 60 pct of Russia's external trade is with the European Union.
    There's something that I noticed in my additional few hours of pursuing Russian history: both the Kievan and Muskovy states settled disputes with neighbors by just handing them bits of border regions. Those regions got swapped back and forth as fortunes shifted, leaving areas, especially along the Polish frontier and in the Crimean region, where ethnicities and cultures mixed -- but never really melded. Reading through the past it's easy to see how they were just storing up problems for the future, much as with the oft-traded border between France and Germany that led to several wars.

    It's too bad there aren't any leaders in Ukraine who could stir popular opinion to say both "Fuck you!" and "Welcome!" to both Russia and the EU, and build a country which would specialize in friendship to both, rather than "leaders" determined to draw lines in the sand.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    ^There is a very real awareness in Ukraine that a repetition of Munich 1938 is near at hand, with The West agreeing to Russian annexation of The Crimea, to satisfy Putin's fear that the Russian Black Sea Fleet will lose its base...in my opinion an unjustifiable fear.

    Henlein's Sudeten separatists were helped by Nazi forces from across the border in the German Reich in preparation for the German annexation of The Sudentenland, Czechoslovakia leading to Nazi Germany annexing the whole of Czechoslovakia....and world war when Germany invaded, and divided Poland with guess...the Soviet Union.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    The West is not about to go to war over Ukraine, any part of it.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  37. #137
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    The West is not about to go to war over Ukraine, any part of it.
    I agree, for now at least. It kind of makes sense to let Russia have Crimea (reluctantly), because there is little we can effectively do about it. Ukraine insists it will not let go of Crimea, and certainly the argument that it is Ukrainian soil, so why should they?, is going to weigh on the minds of the West should Ukraine go to war with Russia alone. Ukraine is at a disadvantage and Russia will appear the bully. The West could end up getting involved in the future, regardless of what its rhetoric is now. With any luck, Ukraine will weigh everything up and determine that the Crimea is not worth a potential war, join Nato to protect the remainder of its sovereignty and then join the West in sanctions or economic restrictions whatever.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    I think if Ukraine tried to join NATO Putin would invade.
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by DreamTeam View Post
    I agree, for now at least. It kind of makes sense to let Russia have Crimea (reluctantly), because there is little we can effectively do about it. Ukraine insists it will not let go of Crimea, and certainly the argument that it is Ukrainian soil, so why should they?, is going to weigh on the minds of the West should Ukraine go to war with Russia alone. Ukraine is at a disadvantage and Russia will appear the bully. The West could end up getting involved in the future, regardless of what its rhetoric is now. With any luck, Ukraine will weigh everything up and determine that the Crimea is not worth a potential war, join Nato to protect the remainder of its sovereignty and then join the West in sanctions or economic restrictions whatever.
    No -- Ukraine should stay out of NATO and work to make itself a bridge between Russia and the EU.

    And NATO does not need a member state with so many fascists in power.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    I think if Ukraine tried to join NATO Putin would invade.
    That wouldn't surprise me at all. He sees NATO as a conspiracy to crush Russian destiny.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Ukraine has said it will not react militarily to the annexation of Crimea.

    Ukraine's acting president has said the country will not use its army to stop Crimea from seceding, in the latest indication that a Russian annexation of the peninsula may be imminent.

    The interim leader said intervening on the south-eastern Black Sea peninsula, where Kremlin-backed forces have seized control, would leave Ukraine exposed on its eastern border, where he said Russia has massed "significant tank units"

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ting-president

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    It is normal that Ukraine should have friendly relations with neighbouring countries. I think it would seem legitimately odd from Russia's point of view that western countries would seem jealous that Ukraine would sometimes make overtures toward Russia. Yes, Russia's current policy in Crimea is inept and hostile and uncivilized, but we might have spent less time shutting Russia out over the last 12 years and more effort defining a role for it on the international stage. Would we care about Ukraine's relations with Russia if we had better relations with Russia as western nations? If it were better integrated into G8?
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    It is normal that Ukraine should have friendly relations with neighbouring countries. I think it would seem legitimately odd from Russia's point of view that western countries would seem jealous that Ukraine would sometimes make overtures toward Russia. Yes, Russia's current policy in Crimea is inept and hostile and uncivilized, but we might have spent less time shutting Russia out over the last 12 years and more effort defining a role for it on the international stage. Would we care about Ukraine's relations with Russia if we had better relations with Russia as western nations? If it were better integrated into G8?
    Very good observations. NATO's aggressive expansion has kept Russian feathers ruffled almost constantly -- and there are consequences.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  44. #144
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Very good observations. NATO's aggressive expansion has kept Russian feathers ruffled almost constantly -- and there are consequences.
    Yes, well, NATO has expanded in a way that would make any prudent leader of Russia very wary. It has expanded in kind of a triumphalist "Nyeah nyeah, we won the Cold War" way. Of course, both the west and Russia won the cold war: Communism is gone!


    As far as the current accusations of corruption and oligarchy, Russian economists, without any cynicism or recourse to soviet reflexive nationalism, can point to the same pattern of development in other nascent free markets back in the day.

    I'm no apologist for Russian behaviour in Crimea; they're inept and inelegant thugs. But that has not happened in a vacuum, and several policy and diplomatic failures presage this moment. And frankly, the Russians are less inept and inelegant than the petty dictatorial buffoons on most of Russia's southern periphery. If the Russians had any brains, they would have accepted Yanukovych's ouster, waited for proper elections to normalise the Ukrainian government, and then insisted on Crimea's right to self determination, if Crimea wished to assert it with an actual free and fair referendum. A referendum held without the spectre of armed thugs "politely keeping the peace." IN all likelihood, given the Ukrainian bias against the Russian minority (linguistic harassment), inept foreign policy of Kiev, shambolic government under any of the main parties over the last decade, Crimea would have actually freely voted to separate. (Barring significant improvement on the part of Kiev). That would have been a strategic victory for Russian foreign policy and a clean victory instead of the current embarrassingly amateur marauding.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Yes, well, NATO has expanded in a way that would make any prudent leader of Russia very wary. It has expanded in kind of a triumphalist "Nyeah nyeah, we won the Cold War" way. Of course, both the west and Russia won the cold war: Communism is gone!


    As far as the current accusations of corruption and oligarchy, Russian economists, without any cynicism or recourse to soviet reflexive nationalism, can point to the same pattern of development in other nascent free markets back in the day.

    I'm no apologist for Russian behaviour in Crimea; they're inept and inelegant thugs. But that has not happened in a vacuum, and several policy and diplomatic failures presage this moment. And frankly, the Russians are less inept and inelegant than the petty dictatorial buffoons on most of Russia's southern periphery. If the Russians had any brains, they would have accepted Yanukovych's ouster, waited for proper elections to normalise the Ukrainian government, and then insisted on Crimea's right to self determination, if Crimea wished to assert it with an actual free and fair referendum. A referendum held without the spectre of armed thugs "politely keeping the peace." IN all likelihood, given the Ukrainian bias against the Russian minority (linguistic harassment), inept foreign policy of Kiev, shambolic government under any of the main parties over the last decade, Crimea would have actually freely voted to separate. (Barring significant improvement on the part of Kiev). That would have been a strategic victory for Russian foreign policy and a clean victory instead of the current embarrassingly amateur marauding.
    It's easier to see things when you have no passion involved, isn't it?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  46. #146
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Russia Massing Military Forces Near Border With Ukraine

    MOSCOW — Russia’s Defense Ministry announced new military operations in several regions near the Ukrainian border on Thursday, even as Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany warned the Kremlin to abandon the politics of the 19th and 20th centuries or face diplomatic and economic retaliation from a united Europe.

    In Moscow, the military acknowledged significant operations involving armored and airborne troops in the Belgorod, Kursk and Rostov regions abutting eastern Ukraine, where many ethnic Russians have protested against the new interim government in Ukraine’s capital, Kiev, and appealed to Moscow for protection.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/14/wo...kraine.html?hp
    This might be a prelude to a Crimea like operation to "protect" the Russian nationals (or ethnics) and sympathizers in Eastern Ukraine; or, an effort to pin down Ukrainian forces which might be involved in any post-referendum Crimea action.

    In any event it is not encouraging.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    This might be a prelude to a Crimea like operation to "protect" the Russian nationals (or ethnics) and sympathizers in Eastern Ukraine; or, an effort to pin down Ukrainian forces which might be involved in any post-referendum Crimea action.

    In any event it is not encouraging.
    The interim government has already essentially acknowledged they can do nothing in Crimea because Russia has these divisions mobilized on their border.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  48. #148

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    My longtime friend, an ethnic Russian, born in the Ukraine, and arrived in th US 6 months ago, assures me that the People in Crimea, including Russians, do not want this. The elections, as with everything else are corrupt.

  49. #149
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Just another reminder that Crimea was only 'given' to the Ukraine by Kruschev in 1954.

    To be blunt. The west doesn't give a shit about the Crimea or the Ukraine. Except that the Russians have their fleet docked in Sebastopol.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    In an aggressive, provocative and totally vacuous move certain to bring Russia to its knees, sanctions have been imposed.

    The United States, working in coordination with Europe, imposed a new round of sanctions on 11 prominent Russian and Ukrainian political figures on Monday as the showdown over Crimea reached a new stage of confrontation between East and West.

    President Obama signed an executive order freezing the assets and banning visas for Russians deemed to be responsible for the seizing of Crimea or otherwise interfering in Ukrainian sovereignty.
    Of course the sanctioned - which do not included Putin - likely are insulated from the effects of the sanctions.

    The highest ranking government official on the list, Mr. Rogozin, who oversees the defense industry, chided the American president as “Comrade Obama” and asked whether he had considered the fact that those on the list did not have property or assets abroad.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/wo...icials.html?hp

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