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  1. #51
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    I sense even more fracking in our future.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  2. #52
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    If people have a right to self determination, what do people in Ukraine want? What do people in the Crimea want?

    And who wants to go to war to support or deny them?

    I don't care how many portentous references are made to WW2, we have to decide based on what is happening NOW, not be pushed into things because of "if Only's."
    Well, that's kind of the whole Cold War, isn't it? Both sides funnelling money to different factions who each say about the other "Please, come help save us from the Americans/the Soviets..."

    That's why that propaganda piece floating around should be treated with suspicion, even though people act like "well what's the big deal, there's propaganda all the time every way."

  3. #53
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    You're welcome. BTW where is Rolyo? Isn't Bulgaria like two countries over? Get him in here to speak for everyone in the region!!!!
    He's ahem... "busy." I'll tell him he was summoned, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Except he won't -- he'll rebuild a Tsarist system, not a Party one.
    (When I first read Kulindahr's response, I thought he was talking about Rolyo... lol)

  4. #54
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    No, the cold war propaganda was window dressing over the fact that the Warsaw pact was forcing participation on a bunch of people who didn't want to be in it. Look how fast it crumbled and the clamoring on Nato's door when it did.

    Not that people in Nato's sphere of influence had much choice either, but at least the perks were better, and the partners were a lot more equal.

    If what we're seeing about Ukraine is accurate, half that country actually wants Russian intervention, so maybe partition isn't such a bad idea.

    The cold war was far more about proxy wars in third party living rooms. There seems to be an actual divide in Ukraine.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  5. #55
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    I still think it's presumptuous of us to pretend we have the right to decide for them.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  6. #56
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    He's ahem... "busy." I'll tell him he was summoned, though.



    (When I first read Kulindahr's response, I thought he was talking about Rolyo... lol)
    Tell him to spit out that penis and come account for Ukraine.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  7. #57
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    He's ahem... "busy." I'll tell him he was summoned, though.
    Should we all hold hands and hum while you do the summoning?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  8. #58
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    The cold war was far more about proxy wars in third party living rooms. There seems to be an actual divide in Ukraine.
    Kinda like the "divide" in Mongolia and Tibet.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  9. #59

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    I think we are going to have to make up a new law akin to Godwin's Law. We'll call it Palbert's Law, under which anyone bringing up Sarah "Hockey Mom" Palin is immediately guilty and has forfeited the argument.

    I do find it funny though that apparently it was SENATOR Obama's reactions that encouraged Putin and not PRESIDENT Bush's.
    Hard to escape the truth in that she was right.

    Palin and Obama were on opposing tickets at the time during the 2008 election.

  10. #60
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Tell him to spit out that penis and come account for Ukraine.
    THEY TOLD ME IT WOULD BE FINE! I WAS JUST FOLLOWING ORDERS! I DIDN'T DO IT! I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!

    My input on this is that I have no input. I don't even know where Ukraine is in relation to Bulgaria...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  11. #61
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Hard to escape the truth in that she was right.

    Palin and Obama were on opposing tickets at the time during the 2008 election.
    She was right in a "broken clock" kinda way, as she claimed it would happen six years ago... Also, it still hasn't happened...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Should we all hold hands and hum while you do the summoning?
    You could have just made it rain on me. A girl's gotta eat, I ain't showing my boobs for free!
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  12. #62
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    An other take (opinion piece) on the situation in the Ukraine.

    The Ukraine crisis: John Kerry and Nato must calm down and back off [theguardian.com]

    Kerry's rush to punish Russia and Nato's decision to respond to Kiev's call by holding a meeting of member states' ambassadors in Brussels today were mistakes. Ukraine is not part of the alliance, so none of the obligations of common defence come into play. Nato should refrain from interfering in Ukraine by word or deed. The fact that it insists on getting engaged reveals the elephant in the room: underlying the crisis in Crimea and Russia's fierce resistance to potential changes is Nato's undisguised ambition to continue two decades of expansion into what used to be called "post-Soviet space", led by Bill Clinton and taken up by successive administrations in Washington.
    ...
    The Russian-speaking majority in the region is as angry with elite corruption, unemployment and economic inequality as people in western Ukraine. But it also feels beleaguered and provoked, with its cultural heritage [ed.: its right to use the Russian language] under existential threat. Responsibility for eliminating those concerns lies not in Washington, Brussels or Moscow, but solely in Kiev.
    A worthy read.

  13. #63
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    ^
    That's a very sensible article.

    In a way, the people saying the Ukraine situation could provoke a new cold war are wrong: the Ukraine situation exists because we already have a new cold war, with Russia and NATO competing to dominate the area.

    I occasionally think we should just invite Russia to join NATO and be done with it, and have an alliance that goes all the way around the northern hemisphere.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  14. #64

  15. #65
    Do I dare to eat a peach?
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Jack, I am reporting this.

    The clear meaning of the "additional posting guidelines" is that, when quoting, you should add some of your thoughts or what the cited piece is about.

    That, here, would save me going to an article I'd already read.

  16. #66
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    THEY TOLD ME IT WOULD BE FINE! I WAS JUST FOLLOWING ORDERS! I DIDN'T DO IT! I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!

    My input on this is that I have no input. I don't even know where Ukraine is in relation to Bulgaria...
    That settles it, Russia is using gypsy spies on JUB to destabilize Ukraine.

    I suppose I'll have to use some enhanced interrogation techniques to get the truth out of you.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  17. #67
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    This morning's news suggests that after their arrival in Kiev, Kerry, and Hague the West's BatMan, and Robin will thwart any further advance of Russian troops into Ukraine's, Russian dominated Crimea using the most advanced rhetoric available to NATO goverments.

  18. #68

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    This morning's news suggests that after their arrival in Kiev, Kerry, and Hague the West's BatMan, and Robin will thwart any further advance of Russian troops into Ukraine's, Russian dominated Crimea using the most advanced rhetoric available to NATO goverments.
    Kerry will speak french and no one will know what he's saying -- which isn't much different than what he said yesterday on the news shows.

  19. #69

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Jack, I am reporting this.

    The clear meaning of the "additional posting guidelines" is that, when quoting, you should add some of your thoughts or what the cited piece is about.

    That, here, would save me going to an article I'd already read.
    I guess I should have said something like 'it's a worthy read.'

  20. #70
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    That settles it, Russia is using gypsy spies on JUB to destabilize Ukraine.

    I suppose I'll have to use some enhanced interrogation techniques to get the truth out of you.
    I have discovered that I can't help but tell the truth when my dick is inserted into someone's ass. For example, I always come when I say I will. You should try that technique.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I guess I should have said something like 'it's a worthy read.'
    Do you ever get tired of being antagonizing and obnoxious?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  21. #71
    ecce homo rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I guess I should have said something like 'it's a worthy read.'
    I think the idea is that you are supposed to offer your own take on it, or state whether you agree or disagree and just possibly why.....

  22. #72
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Do you ever get tired of being antagonizing and obnoxious?
    Apparently not.

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    I think the idea is that you are supposed to offer your own take on it, or state whether you agree or disagree and just possibly why.....
    Or at least point out it brings a new point of view, and cite some of the verbiage as an example.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  23. #73
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    How does this look as a post?




  24. #74
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution





    It's a political comment.


    Really.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  25. #75
    JUB Addict maxpowr9's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    At least we know the EU will continue to remain inept in this whole ordeal. We know economic sanctions won't come from Europe because who do you think supplies much of the area [specifically Germany] with oil and coal? The EU will just wag its finger like some progressive parent who doesn't believe in disciplining a child.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Jack, I am reporting this.

    The clear meaning of the "additional posting guidelines" is that, when quoting, you should add some of your thoughts or what the cited piece is about.

    That, here, would save me going to an article I'd already read.
    Yeah. God forbid, any liberal should have to read and decide for himself. Gotta have those guidelines, don't you know?

  27. #77

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Apparently not.



    Or at least point out it brings a new point of view, and cite some of the verbiage as an example.

    Is the liberal clique at CEP back? Where's your leader? He's AWOL.



    I understand your frustration with the lack of leadership by our President -- but don't take it out on me. You're just experiencing what many Americans have for the past 5 years.

  28. #78
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    At least we know the EU will continue to remain inept in this whole ordeal. We know economic sanctions won't come from Europe because who do you think supplies much of the area [specifically Germany] with oil and coal? The EU will just wag its finger like some progressive parent who doesn't believe in disciplining a child.
    And Muscovy has always tried to vanquish Kiev.

    The new Prince of Muskovy, Tasr Putin, is just one more in a long line.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  29. #79
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Is the liberal clique at CEP back? Where's your leader? He's AWOL.
    The liberal clique had a leader? I hadn't noticed one since Alfie sank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I understand your frustration with the lack of leadership by our President -- but don't take it out on me. You're just experiencing what many Americans have for the past 5 years.
    Are you ever going to grow up? Stop seeing what you want to see, and actually pay attention to people, Jack! In fact, I think that the way you truly offend others here is that you don't treat any of us as people, you just drop us into categories.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  30. #80
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    In fact, I think that the way you truly offend others here is that you don't treat any of us as people, you just drop us into categories.
    And you fit into them so neatly!

    Not to worry, Rachel Maddow has already blamed the whole Ukraine situation on George Bush. Yet further proof that the mad cow is absolutely bat shit crazy.

  31. #81
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Not to worry, Rachel Maddow has already blamed the whole Ukraine situation on George Bush. Yet further proof that the mad cow is absolutely bat shit crazy.
    Link?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  32. #82
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    BENGHAZI rears its head, via Tweets from Senator Lindsey Graham

    Lindsey Graham ‏@GrahamBlog 1h

    Putin basically came to the conclusion after Benghazi, Syria, Egypt - everything Obama has been engaged in - he's a weak indecisive leader.

    Lindsey Graham ‏@GrahamBlog 2h

    It started with Benghazi. When you kill Americans and nobody pays a price, you invite this type of aggression. #Ukraine

    https://twitter.com/GrahamBlog?origi...w_p=tweetembed
    We knew this was going to happen!

  33. #83
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    I feel like you can definitely draw a clear line from Obama's red-ish line in Syria to what's now going on in Ukraine... but the line goes all the way back to include GWB (and the world at large) giving Russia a pass for the Georgian invasion in August 2008.

    there's really no great answers... after Iraq/Afghanistan, Americans haven't been this war-weary since Vietnam and European leaders are seemingly disinterested in doing anything about the problems in their own backyard either.
    Last edited by darden; March 4th, 2014 at 03:09 PM.

  34. #84

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Link?
    May I suggest reading news instead of select liberal commentary.

  35. #85

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The liberal clique had a leader? I hadn't noticed one since Alfie sank.



    Are you ever going to grow up? Stop seeing what you want to see, and actually pay attention to people, Jack! In fact, I think that the way you truly offend others here is that you don't treat any of us as people, you just drop us into categories.
    Whatever happened to CowboyBob?

    Your mind is living in a liberal world right now I don't expect you to understand.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    BENGHAZI rears its head, via Tweets from Senator Lindsey Graham



    We knew this was going to happen!
    BRIDGEGAZI

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Link?
    Google is your friend. Are you that lazy? LOL

    FYI Sarah Palin predicted this move by Putin during the 2008 election campaign.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Sarah Palin's prediction:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...d-9167833.html


    Long-derided as a soccer mom with a limited grasp of international geopolitical affairs, it turns out the world may have misunderestimated Sarah Palin.

    Speaking as the Republican vice-presidential nominee in the 2008 US presidential campaign, Palin warned that if Barack Obama was elected then Russia would be likely to invade Ukraine.

    Palin made the remarks when outlining various “crisis scenarios” that would face the US if Obama became president. She was speaking in response to comments made by Obama’s running mate Joe Biden, who warned democratic supporters that other world leaders would want to test the then Illinois senator
    I heard someone say on the radio today (don't recall whom) that Putin is playing Chess while Obama is shooting marbles.

    Putin is making is move because he knows he can get away with it. Especially after Obama has quite effectively emasculated the power and reputation of the USA.
    Last edited by opinterph; March 4th, 2014 at 06:56 PM. Reason: added quote tags

  38. #88
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    BENGHAZI rears its head, via Tweets from Senator Lindsey Graham



    We knew this was going to happen!
    His point is a decent one, but dragging Benghazi into it kills his credibility.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  39. #89
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    May I suggest reading news instead of select liberal commentary.
    What does that have to do with the custom of the forum to document points?

    BTW, I get my news from BBC America and Reuters, plus occasionally US News and World Report.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Whatever happened to CowboyBob?
    I don't know. It's sad that your counterpart in irrationality disappeared, though -- watching you two go at it was entertaining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Your mind is living in a liberal world right now I don't expect you to understand.
    That you can call my positions "liberal" merely shows the depth of your fallacious thinking.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  41. #91
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Google is your friend. Are you that lazy? LOL

    FYI Sarah Palin predicted this move by Putin during the 2008 election campaign.
    Use citations where appropriate. Members are strongly encouraged to document their sources when available.
    Measured by the forum rules, you're the one being lazy. Again.

    Sarah Palin probably got her ideas from Tom Clancy.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  42. #92
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    After a couple of hours of reading Russian history today, I had a silly idea: Russia should declare war on the Ukraine, then surrender, and united the two countries by moving the capital to Kiev. After all, Kiev was the original Russia state.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  43. #93
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Not to worry, Rachel Maddow has already blamed the whole Ukraine situation on George Bush. Yet further proof that the mad cow is absolutely bat shit crazy.
    Link?
    MSNBC's Maddow: G.W. Bush Is to Blame for Ukraine Crisis (NEWSMAX.COM; March 3, 2014)


    Related:

    Why We Did It, a Rachel Maddow documentary, premieres March 6th (msnbc)

    The answer we found and offer up to viewers is both fascinating – and detailed. And its heritage goes back to the days of Jimmy Carter, wends its way through Presidents Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and Bill Clinton – and ends up in George W. Bush’s White House, with tendrils still extending into the Obama White House today.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    I haven't watched the whole documentary yet, but she has a point -- Obama has been more Bush than Bush, using our military to run around killing people, and putting pressure on other governments to help do it.

    But I ran across something interesting today, that puts the while situation in a different light:

    To enter into the world of Putin’s favorite philosophers is to enter a world full of melodrama, mysticism and grandiose eschatological visions. “We trust and are confident that the hour will come when Russia will rise from disintegration and humiliation and begin an epoch of new development and greatness,” Ilyin wrote.

    Three great ideas run through this work. The first is Russian exceptionalism: the idea that Russia has its own unique spiritual status and purpose. The second is devotion to the Orthodox faith. The third is belief in autocracy. Mashed together, these philosophers point to a Russia that is a quasi-theocratic nationalist autocracy destined to play a culminating role on the world stage.
    Putin may not be living in the same reality as the rest of us any more. If not, we may not get the expected responses to any possible actions.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Measured by the forum rules, you're the one being lazy. Again.

    .
    And you're missing the point. Yet again. LOL

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    And you're missing the point. Yet again. LOL
    The point is that it's your responsibility to post a link for claims you've made.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  47. #97
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by darden View Post
    I feel like you can definitely draw a clear line from Obama's red-ish line in Syria to what's now going on in Ukraine... but the line goes all the way back to include GWB (and the world at large) giving Russia a pass for the Georgian invasion in August 2008.

    there's really no great answers... after Iraq/Afghanistan, Americans haven't been this war-weary since Vietnam and European leaders are seemingly disinterested in doing anything about the problems in their own backyard either.

    That the German, and British foreign secretaries have visited Kiev, and held discussions with the Ukranian leadership would suggest otherwise.

    Russia supplies gas to very many countries in Europe...with Winter still a fact of life here, no one wants their gas supplied interrupted.

    An over reaction to Russia's sabre rattling will assist no one including, the Ukranians.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Wow, to read the posts here is quite disheartening.

    Let's imagine an alternate world:

    In 1918, the United States, Canada and Mexico unite to form the American Soviet Union (ASU from now) under the leadership of dictator Woodrow Wilson, to counter the French Empire that conquered Europe. Then, in 1954, ASU dictator Truman transferred New England from the US-Soviet Republic to the Canadian Soviet Republic, for reasons nobody understands. Imagine also, that Norfolk is in New England and is not only the biggest Atlantic military port, but the ONLY Atlantic military port. Now imagine that the ASU dissolves in 1990, with New England remaining part of the newly independent Canada, but with a long-term lease for the Norfolk military base.

    And now, in 2014, the pro US Canadian president is overthrown by mass protests in Quebec, and the new Canadian government wants closer military, economic and political ties with the French Empire, over strong opposition from the people of New England, who see themselves as (US-)Americans first. The new interim parliament also passes a law that would outlaw teaching English at school and made French the sole language of Canada, but the interim president wisely vetoes this law. And imagine that the interim government grumbles about terminating the Norfolk lease, thus depriving the USA of it's only Atlantic port.

    A United States that invades other countries over alleged weapons of mass destruction would invade/liberate New England about as fast as Putin invaded the Crimea. And this analogy is pretty close to the reality. The Ukraine did not control the Crimea since the 11th century, when the Mongols invaded Kievan Rus, razed Kiev and settled Sunni Tatars (a Mongol people) in the Crimea. Later the Crimea would be part of it's own Khanate, becoming part of the Ottoman Empire even later, until the Russian Empire conquered it in the early 19th century. The Crimea became part of the Ukraine Soviet Republic in 1954, when Khrushchev transferred from the Russian Soviet Republic for seemingly no goo reason.

    It is not unlikely that the planned referendum over Crimean independence would have passed without Putin intervening. Of course now any such outcome is suspect, but what Putin is doing is actually pretty sensible in the view of Russian self defense.

    And of course saying that PUTIN is the cold warrior here is quite something. During the fall of the Soviet Union there were several agreements between the West and Russia. For some concessions like allowing Germany to reunite and become part of NATO, the Alliance promised the Russian not to expand eastwards into Russian borders. Here we are 20 years later, with nearly all former Warsaw pact members being part of NATO, even the former Soviet republics of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are members of the Alliance. President Bush opened new many new military bases around Russia, and Dick Cheney had plans not only to wholly crush Russian influence outside Russian borders, but he even wanted to dismantle Russia itself.

    Russia is rightfully feeling threatened, and that logical actions like securing it's much shrunken sphere of influence are seen as Russia restarting the cold war is quite something. Especially from a country which had the Monroe doctrine, which declared the whole Americas as the US sphere of influence. Russia by contrasts only seeks to retain it's influence over their border countries.

    Now I am certainly not in favor of what Putin did, but the hypocrisy of some people is sickening. And Putin is not making this move because Obama somehow makes America look weak, he is doing it because he sees vital Russian security interests in danger, in the face of an ever expanding Western influence.

    And to answer insipid posts about Europe not caring enough or Putin having the EU by it's throat: Over 40% of Russian trade is with the EU. If the EU and Russia stopped trading with each other, the Russian economy would collapse, and the EU states would suffer mightily, although the Greeks would be much less able to pay rising energy prices than say the Swedes. It is mutually assured destruction, Russia is as dependent on trade with the EU as the EU is dependent on Russian oil and gas.

    And of course the neocons are screaming to do something, but I cannot see what should be done. The US can suspend trade with Russia, with Russia accounting for 2% of US trade. But the EU cannot do that, the same that the US cannot stop trade with China without crashing it's own economy. Making the Ukraine a battlefield will end worse for the Ukrainians than simply letting Russia take the Crimea. It will not set a precedent, since the only other non-Nato members in Russia's vicinity are Belarus (good riddance!) and Finland (look up the Winter War for why Russia is unlikely to try to invade Finland again), which means any further expansion would lead to a war nobody wants, including Putin.

    Diplomacy is the best course of action, and it should be noted that Russia has not yet annexed the Crimean Peninsula.

  49. #99

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    After a couple of hours of reading Russian history today, I had a silly idea: Russia should declare war on the Ukraine, then surrender, and united the two countries by moving the capital to Kiev. After all, Kiev was the original Russia state.
    A couple of hours, huh. I'm guessing in your mind that you've qualified yourself for a doctorate in Russian Studies.

  50. #100
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    A couple of hours, huh. I'm guessing in your mind that you've qualified yourself for a doctorate in Russian Studies.
    A couple of hours spent on the subject would make him better qualified than the woman your party ran for Vice-President.

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