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  1. #1
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    Ukraine in Revolution

    Ukraine sits wedged on the Black Sea between the European Union and Russia. This is a very tough spot for any country as it must weigh closer economic ties with Europe versus generous energy deals from Russia, which might isolate Ukraine from western support. Unfortunately for the president, he suddenly chose closer ties to Russia in November when it looked very likely he would side with the EU. The public erupted in anger. The country is now divided between protesters in Kiev and President Yanukovych's psupport in the east and the police forces. Headquarters have been set on fire. People have been set on fire. Hopefully, a full scale civil war will not break out.

    Rachel Maddow has a very good summary of the latest developments:



    What looks like a revolution is taking place in the country's capital that could cut off Russia's wider influence. If successful, the revolutionaries could get extensive revisions to the constitution and a new regime. Also they look particularly effective with fire Good for them.
    Last edited by Alnitak; February 26th, 2014 at 03:58 PM.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    The statues of Lenin, and also Marshal Kutuzov and others, that are being pulled down are symbols of past attempts to eliminate Ukrainian identity by smothering it with Russian. Putin's dislike of it is because he wants Ukraine absorbed all over again so he can try to finish the process.

    I hope the crowds are busting up the statues, selling the metal as scrap, and making some spending cash.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  3. #3
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    When we visited the Ukraine...it was obvious that the soul of the country is divided as to whether Europe or Russia should be the direction to move. It has been ever thus.

    Bear in mind that Kiev is really the homebase for Russians...it was only the muslims conquering the region that sent the inhabitants fleeing to Moscow.

    Whether Putin and Co. will let the west predominate in this region is not up for question...they won't. The best that we can all hope for is that Europe, the US and Russia come to some uneasy agreement that will allow the Ukraine to have equal relationships with all three players. Kind-of an open marriage or love triangle.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    I am looking at The Guardian's and The New York Times' live blogs, as available, on the situation with the Ukraine.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Aside from the internal struggles and territorial integrity the new government has a daunting task just getting the misappropriated billions back:

    Speaking in parliament, Yatsenyuk [the new president] said that the former government had left the country with $75bn of debts. "Over $20bn of gold reserve were embezzled. They took $37bn of loans that disappeared," Yatsenyuk said. "Around $70bn was moved to offshore accounts from Ukraine's financial system in the last three years," he claimed.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ukovych-russia
    No wonder the country is in financial distress.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    I honestly think that the proposed separation of the country is probably the best route. Ukraine can go join the EU and the proposed new state of Crimea can keep its Russian ties.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    From the news reports today it appears the Putin is trying to pull off a Hitler/Sudetenland maneuver.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    I honestly think that the proposed separation of the country is probably the best route. Ukraine can go join the EU and the proposed new state of Crimea can keep its Russian ties.
    That could get awkward, though there probably would be infrastructure improvements in Kerch.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    From the news reports today it appears the Putin is trying to pull off a Hitler/Sudetenland maneuver.
    Good.

    NATO should vote to admit Ukraine.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Just to give a picture of how Ukraine will be partitioned


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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Crimean air space has been closed, apparently by elements of the Black Sea Fleet.

    Russian military helicopters have been seen flying into and over Crimean air space.

    Mobile, landline and Internet access has been cut off in parts of the Crimea region, according to a statement from Ukrtelecom, the Ukrainian National Telecommunications operator.

    The New York Times Blog

  11. #11
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The statues of Lenin, and also Marshal Kutuzov and others, that are being pulled down are symbols of past attempts to eliminate Ukrainian identity by smothering it with Russian. Putin's dislike of it is because he wants Ukraine absorbed all over again so he can try to finish the process.
    Its quite ironic actually, since in Putin's more Stalinist government, you can easily imagine him smirking wryly at the thought of Lenin's statues being pulled down. I sympathize with the reasoning for the Ukrainians to destroy these symbols of Russia, but my heart does sink a little knowing that a Lenin government was far better for Russian gays than anything since. And that is relevant in relation to gay rights current issues there.

    As it looks for Ukraine right now, the Crimea region may seek autonomy, either that or the country is going to be split in two. That will want to be avoided at all costs. Hopefully Russia won't interfere but can they be trusted?? Time will tell,

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Just to give a picture of how Ukraine will be partitioned

    So under the Soviet Union they managed to settle enough Russians in the south to make it favor Russia.


    BTW, this mirrors a Tom Clancy novel so closely it's chilling.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    BTW, I just came across Ghostbusters II on the tube, and it triggered a memory -- wasn't most of Ukraine once Carpathia and Ruthenia?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  14. #14
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Just a quick reminder:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War

    The Crimean War (pronounced /kraɪˈmiːən/ or /krɨˈmiːən/) (October 1853 – February 1856)[7][5]:7 was a conflict in which Russia lost to an alliance of France, Britain, the Ottoman Empire, and Sardinia. While neutral, Austria played a role in stopping the Russians.

    The immediate issue involved the rights of Christians in the Holy Land, which was controlled by the Ottoman Empire. The French promoted the rights of Catholics, while Russia promoted those of the Orthodox. The longer-term causes involved the decline of the Ottoman Empire, and the unwillingness of Britain and France to allow Russia to gain territory and power at Ottoman expense. Russia lost and the Ottomans won, gaining a twenty-year respite from Russian pressure. The Ottomans granted Christians a degree of official equality and the Orthodox gained control of Christian churches disputed by the Ottomans.
    I can guarantee you that Russia will not relinquish Sebastopol in the same way that the US would not give up Guantanamo or one of its major bases.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    ....

    BTW, this mirrors a Tom Clancy novel so closely it's chilling.
    It calls to mind his Red Storm Rising.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    It calls to mind his Red Storm Rising.
    And a more recent one, where Russia tries to take the Crimean region.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Russia cannot afford to lose the Crimea.

    Welcome to WWIII everyone.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    President Obama, as reported on The Guardian Live Blog:

    "We are now deeply concerned by reports of military movements taken by the Russian federation inside Ukraine,” Obama said.

    He referred to reports without mentioning specific US intelligence.

    “Russia has an historic relationship with the Ukraine,” Obama acknowledged, noting the Black Sea fleet post in Sevastopol.

    However, Obama said, “any violation of Ukrainian sovereignty would be deeply destabilizing.”

    “It would present a profound interference in matters that must be decided by the Ukrainian people,” he said, and “it would invite the condemnation of the international community.”

    As for what action the United States might take:

    “The United States will stand with the international community in affirming that there will be costs for any kind of intervention in Ukraine.”

    Source Link: http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...s-live-updates
    Last edited by opinterph; February 28th, 2014 at 09:02 PM. Reason: added source link

  19. #19
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Russia cannot afford to lose the Crimea.

    Welcome to WWIII everyone.
    Um, it's not theirs, so how can they "lose" it?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    President Obama, as reported on The Guardian Live Blog:
    Good lord -- that sounds exactly like the Clancy novel!

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  20. #20

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    The current discussion in the WH is how they can blame this on Bush or the tea party.

  21. #21
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Really! LINK!
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Um, it's not theirs, so how can they "lose" it?...
    I'm not so sure Putin sees it that way. Unfortunately my knowledge of this is talking head based so I don't really know what the Crimea means to the average Russian, or if the average Russian was the Soviet Union back, but I suspect the government would like it back.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    As reported on The Guardian Live Blog at 6:30 PM ET (US):

    A spokesman for the Ukrainian border service has said that said eight Russian transport planes landed in Crimea Peninsula in southern Ukraine with unknown cargo.

    Serhiy Astakhov told The Associated Press that the Il-76 planes arrived unexpectedly ....

    Source Link: http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...s-live-updates
    I think Putin regards the Crimea as historically part of Russia. He probably dates his belief back to the time of the Romanovs, if not before.
    Last edited by opinterph; February 28th, 2014 at 09:04 PM. Reason: added source link

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Did the Romanovs own the Crimea? For some reason I thought it was part of the Hapsburg Empire.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Or maybe the Ottomans...

    HA! Maybe all of them.
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  25. #25

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    It will be very interesting to see how Obama responds.

    He can't use military force.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Of course he can, but he won't.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Tell us, why is this about Obama?
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Did the Romanovs own the Crimea? For some reason I thought it was part of the Hapsburg Empire.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Or maybe the Ottomans...

    HA! Maybe all of them.
    Pretty much everybody:

    The territory of Crimea was conquered and controlled many times throughout its history. The Cimmerians, Greeks, Scythians, Goths, Huns, Bulgars, Khazars, the state of Kievan Rus', Byzantine Greeks, Kipchaks, Ottoman Turks, Golden Horde Tatars and the Mongols all controlled Crimea in its earlier history. In the 13th century, it was partly controlled by the Venetians and by the Genovese; they were followed by the Crimean Khanate and the Ottoman Empire in the 15th to 18th centuries, the Russian Empire in the 18th to 20th centuries, Germany during World War II and the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic and later the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, within the Soviet Union during the rest of the 20th century.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea

  28. #28

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    not responsive to the above post, but bbc I providing good coverage

  29. #29

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Another fake manufactured "Revolution"!

  30. #30

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Obama just threatened Russia this afternoon in a special address.

    Like it or not Obama is the leader of the real world ... it doesn't matter that most people around the world don't respect him ... he still has obligations.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    OBAMA IS THE LEADER OF THE REAL WORLD!

    I had no idea. What a coup for MTV.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    ... it doesn't matter that most people around the world don't respect him ...
    You are free to engage in this view of the world if you like, as little as it resembles the actual reality. There is absolutely no comparison between the world community's view of this President and our last one.

  33. #33

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    You are free to engage in this view of the world if you like, as little as it resembles the actual reality. There is absolutely no comparison between the world community's view of this President and our last one.
    He's in the negative territory same as Bush was.

    Obama threatened something today -- can anyone tell us what it was?

    It also appears that maybe Romney was correct about Russia being America's biggest problem. I'm guessing that when Obama puts his head on his pillow tonight he might be thinking the same thing -- I expect the conversation was interesting around the Romney dinner table this evening remember debate number 3.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    ^ This derailment off the topic has gone far enough already. If you want to bash Obama mindlessly for his policy on Russia, make a thread for it.

  35. #35

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    ^ This derailment off the topic has gone far enough already. If you want to bash Obama mindlessly for his policy on Russia, make a thread for it.
    So we'll try something new ... sit on the sidelines and watch a country go under domination by a dictatorship.

    ... back to the 1930's -- that turned out very well, didn't it.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    I have to agree with Jack Springer on this one, I found Obama's recent bland pronouncements on this issue to be fundamentally uninspiring, weak, and non-committal. I would say the same for all European leaders' responses too.

    BOTTOM LINE: If Putin chooses, he knows he could launch a full-scale invasion of Ukraine and Obama's administration wouldn't lift a finger militarily to assist - and nor would the E.U. That isn't standing up for human rights, and isn't what I would expect especially from the President of the United States, but then again Obama dithered on the Syria issue too and allowed Putin to dictate the terms.

    There's past precedent for this a few years ago when Putin annexed parts of the territory of Georgia and made them Russian enclaves - a situation which persists to this day.

    SAME tactic - get the Russian inhabitants in whatever country to manufacture a fake persecution complex, thereby providing an excuse for a military invasion and takeover.

    If U.S.A. and Europe don't respond in kind or at least in a forceful and forward-acting manner, then Putin will just gladly take the initiative every time. And win every time.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    BOTTOM LINE: If Putin chooses, he knows he could launch a full-scale invasion of Ukraine and Obama's administration wouldn't lift a finger militarily to assist - and nor would the E.U. That isn't standing up for human rights, and isn't what I would expect especially from the President of the United States, but then again Obama dithered on the Syria issue too and allowed Putin to dictate the terms.
    In total honesty-- Obama had no legs below the knees to make any kind of a hardline stance or action about Syria because the public simply did not care enough about the issue. Even the liberals here in CE&P as well as out in the national community were blasting Obama for what sounded like a leadup to some kind of intervention, and were patently against it. And naturally, whether Obama is willing to intervene or not, it will be the wrong decision as far as Jack Springer and all Republicans will be concerned. That goes without saying.

    To be blunt, I don't know that the public will exists to support the stance you're saying our leaders should be making. People simply don't care enough.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; March 1st, 2014 at 02:44 AM.

  38. #38

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Ukraine is bitterly divided between its pro EU east and its pro Russia west and south. Will the centre hold? It’s too early to say. Ukraine appears to be facing two equally unpalatable futures:
    • If it aligns to Russia it will continue to have oligarchy and authoritarianism
    • If it aligns to the EU it will get oligarchy and neoliberalism


    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...kle-corruption

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...nato-expansion

    http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/ite...eloves-revenge

  39. #39

    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    In total honesty-- Obama had no legs below the knees to make any kind of a hardline stance or action about Syria because the public simply did not care enough about the issue. Even the liberals here in CE&P as well as out in the national community were blasting Obama for what sounded like a leadup to some kind of intervention, and were patently against it. And naturally, whether Obama is willing to intervene or not, it will be the wrong decision as far as Jack Springer and all Republicans will be concerned. That goes without saying.

    To be blunt, I don't know that the public will exists to support the stance you're saying our leaders should be making. People simply don't care enough.
    The world will then stand silent and ignore Putin as he rebuilds the Soviet Union.

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Putin has asked the Russian Parliament to approve sending Russian troops into Crimea.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin has asked the upper house of parliament to approve sending armed forces to Ukraine’s Crimea region, the Kremlin said in a statement on Saturday.
    “In connection with the extraordinary situation in Ukraine, the threat to the lives of citizens of the Russian Federation, our compatriots, and the personnel of the armed forces of the Russian Federation on Ukrainian territory (in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea) ... I submit a proposal on using the armed forces of the Russian Federation on the territory of Ukraine until the normalisation of the socio-political situation in the that country,” the statement said.

    Reuters, quoted in theguardian.com live blog
    Meanwhile the US is trying to figure out what is going on (although they probably know more than they're letting on). http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/28/politi...html?hpt=hp_t1

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal

    And

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War

    Deja Vu all over again!

    Instead of "Why Die for Danzig?" It's "Why Get Killed for Kiev?" Or "why Krieg for Crimea?"

    Only this time it's not, "While England Sleeps" it's "While EUROPE Sleeps!!"

    Frankly we've been overdue for a Eurasian Powder-keg to catch fire!
    How apropos, (Feb. 28) four months to the day before the anniversary of:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassi...and_of_Austria

    Those ignorant to history are doomed to repeat it!
    Last edited by skinIsIn; March 1st, 2014 at 10:09 AM.
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    I don't half fancy you, meet me outside at five-thirty and we'll get it together!
    ...Get wha-?" --Mrs. Slocombe, AYBS?

  42. #42
    Do I dare to eat a peach?
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    An excellent overview of the problems now faced by the US and the West in response to Russia intervention in Crimea by drawing similarities to the difficulties George Bush 2 faced when the Russians moved into Georgia.

    WASHINGTON — President Obama has warned Russia that “there will be costs” for a military intervention in Ukraine. But the United States has few palatable options for imposing such costs, and recent history has shown that when it considers its interests at stake, Russia has been willing to absorb any such fallout.

    Even before President Vladimir V. Putin on Saturday made his first public gesture toward ordering Russian troops into the Ukrainian territory of Crimea, Mr. Obama and his team were already discussing how to respond. They talked about canceling the president’s trip to a summit meeting in Russia in June, shelving a possible trade agreement, kicking Moscow out of the Group of 8 or moving American warships to the region.

    That is the same menu of actions that was offered to President George W. Bush in 2008 when Russia went to war with Georgia, another balky former Soviet republic. Yet the costs imposed at that time proved only marginally effective and short-lived. Russia stopped its advance but nearly six years later has never fully lived up to the terms of the cease-fire it signed. And whatever penalty it paid at the time evidently has not deterred it from again muscling a neighbor.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/wo...e&pgtype=Blogs
    Highly recommended.

    As the article concludes, Putin "has time on his side."

  43. #43
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    I Think that it hits the points totally. Excellent.

    And Russia only has to wait for the Ukraine to Balkanize and then pick up the pieces it wants.


    And the West will be totally powerless to stop it, although I'm sure that Springer and McCain want to drop the bomb.

  44. #44
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    If people have a right to self determination, what do people in Ukraine want? What do people in the Crimea want?

    And who wants to go to war to support or deny them?

    I don't care how many portentous references are made to WW2, we have to decide based on what is happening NOW, not be pushed into things because of "if Only's."
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  45. #45
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    And Sarah Palin weighs in - but she was probably not alone.

    And again from the right. Sarah Palin feels vindicated as she posts on facebook.

    "Yes, I could see this one from Alaska. I’m usually not one to Told-Ya-So, but I did, despite my accurate prediction being derided as “an extremely far-fetched scenario” by the “high-brow” Foreign Policy magazine. Here’s what this “stupid” “insipid woman” predicted back in 2008: “After the Russian Army invaded the nation of Georgia, Senator Obama’s reaction was one of indecision and moral equivalence, the kind of response that would only encourage Russia’s Putin to invade Ukraine next.”

    theguardian.com live blog

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    I think we are going to have to make up a new law akin to Godwin's Law. We'll call it Palbert's Law, under which anyone bringing up Sarah "Hockey Mom" Palin is immediately guilty and has forfeited the argument.

    I do find it funny though that apparently it was SENATOR Obama's reactions that encouraged Putin and not PRESIDENT Bush's.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    I think we are going to have to make up a new law akin to Godwin's Law. We'll call it Palbert's Law, under which anyone bringing up Sarah "Hockey Mom" Palin is immediately guilty and has forfeited the argument.
    YAY, a "Law" named after little old me!

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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    You're welcome. BTW where is Rolyo? Isn't Bulgaria like two countries over? Get him in here to speak for everyone in the region!!!!
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  49. #49
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    The world will then stand silent and ignore Putin as he rebuilds the Soviet Union.
    Except he won't -- he'll rebuild a Tsarist system, not a Party one.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  50. #50
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    Re: Ukraine in Revolution

    Neither the US nor Russia really car what the people of Ukraine want. Russia is interested in reclaiming all its former empire, and the US is interested in keeping Russia from replaying the old superpower game. Both sides have made promises they had no intention of keeping, and both sides can use the promises the other side broke as their excuses for breaking theirs.

    And Europe, as has been the case since before the US even existed, can't really conceive that they need to act assertively in order to protect themselves, because it's never really sunk in that they aren't untouchable. Of course in this case, Russia has Europe by the throat, because they control Europe's energy supply.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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