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  1. #1
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    How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    I was recently watching Oprah Winfrey's interview with the formerly abused child Clayton Moss, and I was wondering whether, given the magnitude of the crimes perpetrated by some people, would be the loss of freedom and having to endure the oppressive environment of prison be enough for them? Should taxpayers pay for an individual whose actions and own nature can only be described as execrable, to live and even eventually be executed, when a better use could easily be found for them?



    This has lead me to wonder whether more effective means to deal with cases of extreme violence, especially those that are perpetrated with a certain pleasure in the suffering of others, could be found by the penal system. Would more drastic measure be adequate in order to "sanitize" society of people whose cruelty, perversity and degeneracy are place them beyond any possible redemption?

    Somehow, a conversation that I had with a fellow animal rights activist some time ago had popped up into my mind. He argued that every single year, millions of animals are sacrificed in the name of medical research and the advancement of science. These creatures, innocent by default, are forced to give their lives so that we can supposedly have a better existence. While the horrors of speciesism have been widely documented, and I will not delve into them, I was wondering is someone who purposefully abuses others and destroys lives just for the thrill of it, be classed as a living being at all. Thus, should they actually have any rights?

    What if violent criminals (everything from child abusers to serial killers, murderers, rapists, sadists and cannibals) were classed as "social liabilities" and were to be required to pay their debt to society by becoming the equivalent of "lab rats"? What would be the moral implication, at a societal level, if we purged our monsters by sacrificing them in the name of a greater good?

    I was just curious to see what everyone would think.

    Does every "human being" deserve respect and a semblance of a life, even when they have proven that they are incapable of giving either thing to anyone or anything else? Would it be legitimate for society at large to claim moral superiority by stripping certain individuals of even their animality? What about animals themselves? Should a harmless creature be less deserving of respect as an evil, destructive, malicious and murderous individual?

    I'd really like to see what everyone has to say regarding this matter.

  2. #2
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrusek81 View Post
    I was recently watching Oprah Winfrey's interview with the formerly abused child Clayton Moss, and I was wondering whether, given the magnitude of the crimes perpetrated by some people, would be the loss of freedom and having to endure the oppressive environment of prison be enough for them? Should taxpayers pay for an individual whose actions and own nature can only be described as execrable, to live and even eventually be executed, when a better use could easily be found for them?



    This has lead me to wonder whether more effective means to deal with cases of extreme violence, especially those that are perpetrated with a certain pleasure in the suffering of others, could be found by the penal system. Would more drastic measure be adequate in order to "sanitize" society of people whose cruelty, perversity and degeneracy are place them beyond any possible redemption?

    Somehow, a conversation that I had with a fellow animal rights activist some time ago had popped up into my mind. He argued that every single year, millions of animals are sacrificed in the name of medical research and the advancement of science. These creatures, innocent by default, are forced to give their lives so that we can supposedly have a better existence. While the horrors of speciesism have been widely documented, and I will not delve into them, I was wondering is someone who purposefully abuses others and destroys lives just for the thrill of it, be classed as a living being at all. Thus, should they actually have any rights?

    What if violent criminals (everything from child abusers to serial killers, murderers, rapists, sadists and cannibals) were classed as "social liabilities" and were to be required to pay their debt to society by becoming the equivalent of "lab rats"? What would be the moral implication, at a societal level, if we purged our monsters by sacrificing them in the name of a greater good?

    I was just curious to see what everyone would think.

    Does every "human being" deserve respect and a semblance of a life, even when they have proven that they are incapable of giving either thing to anyone or anything else? Would it be legitimate for society at large to claim moral superiority by stripping certain individuals of even their animality? What about animals themselves? Should a harmless creature be less deserving of respect as an evil, destructive, malicious and murderous individual?

    I'd really like to see what everyone has to say regarding this matter.
    1 ya gots a soicerty got
    2 iga wot is life
    3 make apes figa ooh
    4 anyway

    5 planet diein
    6 obvious

    7 lot a millions a useles professions classes a do wen eva planet a millions of um eva figa nose
    dat mean alls lands sign UN got grow up so high 1st a eva they no socks ova a face

    thankyou
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  3. #3
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    As lab rats? not really, first there is really not enough of a population of sociopaths to provide enough test subjects. You might wind up with a situation where there is pressure to find people beyond the population of worst criminals. Secondly, most experimentation requires a sound base population, many test animals are specifically bred and grown to assure that they are genetically healthy and meet all the control requirements for the testing. But finally, punishing someone's lack of humanity by inhuman means undermines society, we become no better than those we condemn.

    Society does have to deal with those rare individuals who are such a danger to society and such sociopaths that they are beyond redemption by removing them from society, either by life imprisonment or execution but we must always do so in the most humane means possible.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  4. #4
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    t great ya think about a so a thangs
    but ya real got nose hows slime shit piss a cultures is planet ova fa eons calls umselfs civlized human beings
    ans theys da top bit

    then ya gots da new word giv ta leess a life call people a new thang not long doins rounds so nose reach alls lands ans ins lands

    etc so on

    so 10 house points fa thinkin it

    anyway

    dat me dun

    thankyou

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  5. #5
    Dejavudoo
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    No, it would not be right to subject the prisoners to torture, or even merely involuntary medical testing.

    For the parents of the boy on Oprah's show, they should either be locked away for a long time or executed. It was an extreme case. They don't deserve to live. What they did wasn't an act of ignorance, wasn't a product of mental defect, but was evil. The cowardly fucks didn't even own up to being responsible, and only served a few years in prison.

    There should be a national organization that posts billboards of the faces of these scum. That father and step-mother should be followed from city to city and be shamed with what they did. No quarter.

    I'm ok with evil being terminated.
    Last edited by Dejavudoo; January 12th, 2014 at 03:28 PM.

  6. #6
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    I'm a big believer in deportation to the colonies.

  7. #7

    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    I'm a big believer in deportation to the colonies.
    Unfortunately England has become a colony itself. It's ridiculously over-generous welfare system has made it the favourite destination for migrants from Romania, Bulgaria etc.

  8. #8
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    there go world svaed

    haaa

    europeans is only
    ans rest planet colony

    luv civlizations 1st ans bestests

    haaa
    diasy sunflowa cactus
    hawaii jiggllees original flava

  9. #9
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    I'm still watching, but my first impulse is that the proper thing to do with such people would be to take them to an "anything to oil" plant and toss them in the feed stock, alive. They'd be of use to society as fuel and lubricants, but they and their genes have no place in civilization.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  10. #10
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I'm still watching, but my first impulse is that the proper thing to do with such people would be to take them to an "anything to oil" plant and toss them in the feed stock, alive. They'd be of use to society as fuel and lubricants, but they and their genes have no place in civilization.
    civillie zation? on trial fa eons
    waitn fa sumthang out da swamps a it figa anythang be gurd

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  11. #11
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    For vile cunts like this i'd lock them in a cell til they died, and go in everyday and pistolwhip them.
    "You may only be one person to the world, but you may also be the world to one person"
    - anonymous quote.

  12. #12

    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    They should be sterilised.

  13. #13
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    I didn't go through what he did, but I still dried through the whole part with the sheriff guy who rescued him -- because I never had a rescuer. I'm not sure anyone would have believed me if I'd told what happened to me -- if I'd remembered, because with no one to turn to, my approach to dealing with it was to literally forget for decades. And I think that some of my response to people who abuse kids is because I am still angry. And part of my anger is because there really is no punishment to fit this crime, nothing any society can do to balance things -- and from that angle, I have to say that the thread's question is wrong, because there is no way possible to pay this sort of debt. It's not even really a debt to society in the first place, its a debt to the abused kid, and that's a debt impossible for arrangements for repayment, let alone repayment.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  14. #14
    Dejavudoo
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    I think these people would have been "removed from the gene pool" in times past, and I have no issue with that. I don't care if it is handled at the clan level, the village, the state, or the nation.

    I watched the entire episode of Oprah at the link. The birth mother was never mentioned as far as why she abandoned him to the father and the stepmother. For those disinterested in watching the 40-min. video, a precis follows:

    1. The boy, Clayton Moss, was kept a prisoner by his father and stepmother in a miserable little trailer in Indiana. His stepsister was 14 years old and lived with them, but there is no report of her being abused.

    2. For reasons unknown to Clayton, and not disclosed in the video, his father and stepmother began "punishing" him after his mother dropped him off to stay with them. He recalled his father not abusing him until the stepmother entered the scene. The abuse entailed

    a) locking him into a 2' x 2' airless, lightless bathroom closet, shirtless, standing in a roll of field fencing,
    b) wrapping the fence roll with a chain and padlocking it so that he could not wiggle out of it
    c) not feeding him for periods as long as several days
    d) not letting him out of the cage and closet for days at a time
    e) "punishing" him for urinating and defecating on the floor when caged (with his arms raised over his head and unable to even squat down) by urinating on him and smearing his own feces on him and into his mouth
    f) punishing him for screaming and crying by by squirting dishwashing liquid into his mouth, which they never rinsed out and ran down his neck, giving him a detergent rash on his neck
    g) tormenting him during his cries for help by blaring "oldies" radio music over his screams. He also noted that they would shower together in the same bathroom in which he was imprisoned/

    The fencing cut his skin under his chin and under his arms.

    At times, both parents would be gone from the trailer at the same time, and his stepsister would let him out, feed him bowls of cereal, and let him watch television. The interview never explained why she did not raise the alarm and free him.

    This went on for at least three months when the boy was six. Eventually the sister wanted out of the home and ran away with someone to Kentucky, leaving him with no aid at all. In time, she was caught on the run and then told a sheriff's deputy that her stepbrother was imprisoned in the home. She apparently did it to prevent extradition back to Indiana, not to save him.

    The deputy requested local Child Welfare Services in Indiana investigate. The parents cleaned the boy up prior and the investigator found no basis to intervene. The deputy called the parents and told them the stepdaughter could be collected in Kentucky, hoping to force the parents to bring the boy to Kentucky. They did and the deputy forced an interview with the boy away from the parents. He confirmed the entire sordid tale.

    Clayton was put through foster care and then adopted by his birth mother's aunt. She raised him and at 20, he is now telling his story as a motivational speaker.

    The father and stepmother both accused each other of being the originator of the torture and imprisonment. Neither accepted responsibility for the crimes. The maximum sentence was only four years for the father. His time was cut to less than half of that, with additional time off given him for earning his GED in prison. The stepmother only served about two years too.

    Clayton appears to have healed to the degree that he is emotionally stable and not living in the past. He asks people to pay attention, implying that his disappearance from the neighborhood should have concerned neighbors who didn't see him after his imprisonment in the closet. It is obvious that the complete abandonment scarred him deeply.

    The parents don't deserve to walk this earth.
    Last edited by Dejavudoo; January 12th, 2014 at 05:39 PM.

  15. #15
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    only thang dat tit a tv entertainment go say
    in this country only pay lip serivce

    dat all supa 1st world public do lippys it

    go mt everest ans sign up get aliens nanny apes fa few thousand years

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  16. #16
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    These particular parents deserve to be treated on a par with murderers because this would have ultimately ended in his death.

    There is no one lower than the person who harms a child.
    Everyone wants to be heard. No one wants to listen.

  17. #17
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by sixthson View Post
    These particular parents deserve to be treated on a par with murderers because this would have ultimately ended in his death.

    There is no one lower than the person who harms a child.
    world lands doin fine job so dat mean every one hold hand ans wait fa mickey mouse go
    --------------------

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  18. #18
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    I feel so sorry for him...

    But more proud of him than anything else , he still looks like he nay need counseling tho..
    What brave young man he is

    Not even going to waste my breath on those two animals, but just say May they rot in hell..
    You cant change the way the wind blow's, but you can change the angle of your sail to take you somewhere else!!

  19. #19
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by racer2438 View Post
    I feel so sorry for him...

    But more proud of him than anything else , he still looks like he nay need counseling tho..
    What brave young man he is

    Not even going to waste my breath on those two animals, but just say May they rot in hell..
    yea wish da dude a great life
    no need councelin
    planet do need it real bad eons ago ans plenty stills live wit great lands awsums ways up ta sec ins da millllllllllllllions

    anyway

    hope oprah enjoy her therapy sessions ans rest tv media etc

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  20. #20
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by racer2438 View Post
    I feel so sorry for him...

    But more proud of him than anything else , he still looks like he may need counseling tho..
    What brave young man he is
    Almost certainly. Very few ever make it to balance with just one shot at adjustment.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  21. #21
    Dejavudoo
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by racer2438 View Post
    But more proud of him than anything else
    And we should remember his great aunt who stepped in and raised him since his liberation. From the interview we learned she spent extraordinary care to see that he had every possible chance to recover his remaining childhood, to the degree that anyone could.

    I wonder what college or training ambitions he may have. I'm sure he would have multiple offers from well-wishers (like Oprah) if he chose to go through school. There was no mention of his career plans.

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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Robbers and burglars should pay their debt to society by serving as free prostitutes to upstanding citizens...

  23. #23
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch View Post
    Robbers and burglars should pay their debt to society by serving as free prostitutes to upstanding citizens...
    they eva sit down too?

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  24. #24
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    I like many, am a fierce opponent of the death penalty, violent and recidivist criminals, should be in prison for many years, if not for a whole life term.
    I cannot in any way "support" the taking of another's life, no matter how horrendous their crime may have been, i would imagine being
    kept in solitary, or the alternative of "punishment" being meted out by other inmates, is terror and damage, which will last many more years, than a quick, almost painless death, at the hands of The State.

  25. #25
    Dejavudoo
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by medic1 View Post
    "punishment" being meted out by other inmates, is terror and damage,
    I respect the opposition and live within circles of people who largely agree with it.

    On the other hand, the two year-ish sentence the father served seems weak for such monstrous actions. The law ridiculously minimized the abuse because he was a parent. What exactly would the sentence have been if this had been someone else's child or an adult so imprisoned?

    The injustice of the negligible sentencing increases the clamor for blood, even if it is unjustified in an absolute reckoning.

    And, I'm flexible. The State doesn't have to be the agent if a volunteer would assist the community.

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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    I could not agree with you more, Jason. The "punishment" period for those horrific crimes is on a par with "la-la land". However. i cannot be swayed on my stance on Capital Punishment, be it by The State, or a volunteer.
    Most Dr's who carry out those lethal injections, are indeed volunteers. This just goes against the grain that i was taught, "Do no harm".
    I respect your viewpoint, i just cannot agree with it, Adam...

  27. #27
    Dejavudoo
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Oh, I'm not lobbying for it.

    In my book, "do no harm" also means ending the harm being done by misanthropes. Frankly, I am not clear what the harm is in removing such wicked men and women.

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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    The person carrying out the execution, is killing another, that is doing harm. Remove these evil people by whole-life terms in a maximum
    security prison.
    Though, you will then get many saying, "Why should we pay for their upkeep", which is a valid point. Though i still stand by my original post.

  29. #29
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    I respect the opposition and live within circles of people who largely agree with it.

    On the other hand, the two year-ish sentence the father served seems weak for such monstrous actions. The law ridiculously minimized the abuse because he was a parent. What exactly would the sentence have been if this had been someone else's child or an adult so imprisoned?

    The injustice of the negligible sentencing increases the clamor for blood, even if it is unjustified in an absolute reckoning.

    And, I'm flexible. The State doesn't have to be the agent if a volunteer would assist the community.
    My reaction to that ridiculously early release was that some foundation should publish the father's and stepmother's pictures all across the state and beyond.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  30. #30
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by medic1 View Post
    The person carrying out the execution, is killing another, that is doing harm. Remove these evil people by whole-life terms in a maximum
    security prison.
    Though, you will then get many saying, "Why should we pay for their upkeep", which is a valid point. Though i still stand by my original post.
    Making taxpayers pay for the upkeep of such vile excuses for humanoids is insulting to the dignity of the public.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  31. #31
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    They should be compassionately and swiftly destroyed. If they are sick and no hope for reformation, then put them down for their and society's sake. Destroying someone maliciously is evil and a crime, but with compassion and sorrow in your heart, and for the safety of society isn't.
    Inspired - but too tired.

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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikey3000 View Post
    They should be compassionately and swiftly destroyed. If they are sick and no hope for reformation, then put them down for their and society's sake. Destroying someone maliciously is evil and a crime, but with compassion and sorrow in your heart, and for the safety of society isn't.
    How does one determine that, though? Whether or not someone is capable of reformation, I mean.

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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Objectively, I wish we had a Mars colony with terraforming work -- make it a modern version of Australia. They could be put to work in places where there would be no access to children.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Objectively, I wish we had a Mars colony with terraforming work -- make it a modern version of Australia. They could be put to work in places where there would be no access to children.
    Could we send some current Australians there?

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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    How does one determine that, though? Whether or not someone is capable of reformation, I mean.
    That's where your scientists come into play.

    But lets blur the lines a little. How should these parents be dealt with?

    Inspired - but too tired.

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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikey3000 View Post
    That's where your scientists come into play.

    But lets blur the lines a little. How should these parents be dealt with?
    Well there are definitely psychological disorders for which it is known there is no reliable treatment. But those tend to be severe psychological disturbances that might qualify someone for clinical insanity in the first place. But how do scientists "measure" whether someone abusive because of their own personal history of abuse is capable of reform or not?

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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    I think you answered your own question in the first sentence. Medical professionals have their methods and we have to trust that they work. If not, then you'd be putting everyone in jails and could end up with an incredible overcrowding situation...kinda just like now.
    Inspired - but too tired.

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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    ans planet spin anoda day

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  39. #39
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Could we send some current Australians there?
    Well, someone would have to show them how it's done.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Some crimes permit the criminal to make complete restitution. If someone steals my property, it is often simple enough to fully restore my loss, including losses for the inconvenience or distress. But not all crimes permit of restitution. I think punitive and dissuasive measures should be part of the law; even more so in cases where restitution is not possible.

    Murder is of course the ultimate extinguishment of the victim's rights; to have been left alone in the first place; to go on with their day; to be able to move past the experience. I don't think a murderer can make a claim that ethics requires us to spare his life; his life really is forfeit for us to dispose of as we see fit in whatever way we find most contributes to our safety, and our convenience. That would be the case, but that he can make a claim that ethics requires us to permit an appeal against a miscarriage of justice. As there can be no appeal against death, the death penalty is clearly unethical, at least on the first conviction of murder.

    If there is a subsequent conviction in an unrelated case, I think it may be ethical to allow the death penalty, though I would likely be persuaded by statistical analysis and a qualitative assessment of the capacity of a given justice system to correct its own errors, to be free of corruption or incompetence, etc.

    With murder out of the way, this sets the limits for other crimes where complete restitution may not be possible. So, I would look very harshly on crimes causing permanent or persistent physical or psychological injury. No one who injures someone would have an easy time in my courts or my jails so long as the injury remained unhealed.

    Of course this applies to rape as well. On that subject I do think it is important for the law to recognise that it is possible that the body and mind of the victim will heal, and that their joy will heal as well. I think we have a duty to assert and support a victim's right to declare themselves whole again after the experience, if they come to feel that way. Perhaps not that it was inconsequential, but that it was not insurmountable. The law needs to recognise that a victim of abuse may conclude his or her life has entirely resumed its course.

    In my mind, that represents the earliest possible moment where considering parole of a rapist would be ethically warranted. Based on that requirement, some imprisoned rapists may never even have the opportunity to apply for parole. However there is one more aspect I would write into the law: I profoundly feel that the memory of the event belongs to the victim alone, for their sole reference, to be recalled or recounted only in their absolute discretion, at the time and in the manner of their chosing. The abuser is not entitled to the memory of what occurred, the events, the reactions, the betrayal of privacy, or some stray detail which even the victim may struggle to recall. None of that belongs to the criminal. To have memories of all that lodged in the abuser's brain represents the continued possession of something stolen.

    I would thus as a matter of standard practice have abusers undergo some procedure similar to a lobotomy. The memories would be removed, regardless of consequence to the convict, by whatever physical procedure is necessary for the criminal's mind to relinquish that which it is not entitled to know.

    One might also argue that neither is the criminal entitled to be free of those memories; thus there might be a role for the victim to determine in the course of time that the criminal's memories should be left.

    Ethically, I think that is all a rapist or other abuser is entitled to. I'd make the same caveats about being able to reverse a miscarriage of justice, so I might not get to implement all of that, but I think that is the baseline.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  41. #41
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Justice is not malice. When the State takes life, it is the result of the systematic examination of the crime and the fitness of the accused to be tried. Although much is made of "escapes" in the system, the real incidence of such errors in convictions is not ever presented.

    To Mikey's premise, the State has never required the convicted be irredeemable, only that the jury convict without a reasonable doubt.

    Whether this level of child abuse should qualify is, of course, debatable. I respect Paul's and Adam's positions on it, without sharing them.

    In a completely serious moment, and none of my prior posts about executing these pieces of shit were, I think a prison term is sufficient punishment here, even though my inner voice enjoys imagining the eradication of these parents. In truth, their crimes deserved worse punishment, but that is a failing of the State, not the judiciary who only could mete out the sentences allowed.

  42. #42
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I would thus as a matter of standard practice have abusers undergo some procedure similar to a lobotomy. The memories would be removed, regardless of consequence to the convict, by whatever physical procedure is necessary for the criminal's mind to relinquish that which it is not entitled to know.
    Merits aside, I don't believe there exists the science required to remove specific memories. Lobotomies separate the frontal lobe which pacifies the victim/patient, but doesn't erase memories.

    Should the surgical excision of memory occur, that might be deemed cruel and unusual, as that would leave the perpetrator with no memory of the crime, which would result in the convicted "believing" the crime never occurred in an organic memory sense.

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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Of course this applies to rape as well. On that subject I do think it is important for the law to recognise that it is possible that the body and mind of the victim will heal, and that their joy will heal as well. I think we have a duty to assert and support a victim's right to declare themselves whole again after the experience, if they come to feel that way. Perhaps not that it was inconsequential, but that it was not insurmountable. The law needs to recognise that a victim of abuse may conclude his or her life has entirely resumed its course.

    In my mind, that represents the earliest possible moment where considering parole of a rapist would be ethically warranted. Based on that requirement, some imprisoned rapists may never even have the opportunity to apply for parole. However there is one more aspect I would write into the law: I profoundly feel that the memory of the event belongs to the victim alone, for their sole reference, to be recalled or recounted only in their absolute discretion, at the time and in the manner of their chosing. The abuser is not entitled to the memory of what occurred, the events, the reactions, the betrayal of privacy, or some stray detail which even the victim may struggle to recall. None of that belongs to the criminal. To have memories of all that lodged in the abuser's brain represents the continued possession of something stolen.

    I would thus as a matter of standard practice have abusers undergo some procedure similar to a lobotomy. The memories would be removed, regardless of consequence to the convict, by whatever physical procedure is necessary for the criminal's mind to relinquish that which it is not entitled to know.

    One might also argue that neither is the criminal entitled to be free of those memories; thus there might be a role for the victim to determine in the course of time that the criminal's memories should be left.

    Ethically, I think that is all a rapist or other abuser is entitled to. I'd make the same caveats about being able to reverse a miscarriage of justice, so I might not get to implement all of that, but I think that is the baseline.
    If we could move/change memories like that, then the memories of the rapist should be replaced with the memory of his victim(s), until such time as the victim has come to terms with it all and okays those memories being destroyed.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    Merits aside, I don't believe there exists the science required to remove specific memories. Lobotomies separate the frontal lobe which pacifies the victim/patient, but doesn't erase memories.

    Should the surgical excision of memory occur, that might be deemed cruel and unusual, as that would leave the perpetrator with no memory of the crime, which would result in the convicted "believing" the crime never occurred in an organic memory sense.
    I knew a social worker who wished that the memories could be left right up to the moment the rape or other abuse began, and what followed be replaced by a few moments of sheer terror/horror. Sort of the ultimate in operant conditioning, I guess, carried out in the person's own mind.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    Merits aside, I don't believe there exists the science required to remove specific memories. Lobotomies separate the frontal lobe which pacifies the victim/patient, but doesn't erase memories.

    Should the surgical excision of memory occur, that might be deemed cruel and unusual, as that would leave the perpetrator with no memory of the crime, which would result in the convicted "believing" the crime never occurred in an organic memory sense.
    That's a serious objection. But I think if the abuser is plagued with the bewildering sense of "Why did this happen to me?" then perhaps they are experiencing something from which they can develop the empathy absent in them at the time of their crimes.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  46. #46
    Dejavudoo
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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Or they might become delusional or act out under the belief they have been wrongly imprisoned.

  47. #47

    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Objectively, I wish we had a Mars colony with terraforming work -- make it a modern version of Australia….

    National Library of Australia says 162,000 can be taken as a good approximation for all convict arrivals.

    The number of convicts transported to North America is not verified although it has been estimated to be 50,000 by John Dunmore Lang and 120,000 by Thomas Keneally.

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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post

    National Library of Australia says 162,000 can be taken as a good approximation for all convict arrivals.

    The number of convicts transported to North America is not verified although it has been estimated to be 50,000 by John Dunmore Lang and 120,000 by Thomas Keneally.
    Most of ours were debtors.

  49. #49

    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Most of ours were debtors.
    A week ago, you said—
    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It was always my understanding that most prisoners exported to America were debtors; most exported to Australia were more akin to "felons."
    I think we need some facts on this issue which finished 172 years ago.

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    Re: How should violent criminals pay their debt to society?

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    A week ago, you said—


    I think we need some facts on this issue which finished 172 years ago.
    It's not relevant to the topic in either event.

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