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  1. #51
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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    That statement is factually incorrect. Take Walmart, for example.
    There are five Walmart Stores and one Sam's Club in our county of 200,000

    In 2013, they paid $1,053,059 in ad valorem taxes, which directly affect police, fire, schools, and other public services.
    Their fleet of trucks pays highway taxes (which pay for roads).
    And that doesn't take the amount of sales taxes they collect into account, some portion of which benefits the local county.

    Three or four years ago, before the Obama Recession began, they were paying even more, but as property values declined, so have- the assessments.

    In 2014, another new Walmart will add another $150,000 or so to that number.

    Therefore, it is correct to say that large corporations are carrying their share of the load, perhaps somewhat more than their share.
    How much is Wal*Mart contributing to the services supporting all of the employees it profits off having but fails to compensate sufficiently to live independently of any outside aid or services?

    It's funny how in any other thread, you reactionaries are talking about how you don't want to have to pay taxes because it goes to support people on government services and it's YOUR MONEY. How can that be, when now you are here telling me it's corporations who bear more of the brunt than you do?

  2. #52
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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    To say that corporations "pay off" officials in the more than 2,400 county governments in the country is absurdly ridiculous.
    To claim each corporation needs to pay off every county government in the country to significantly sway important legislation on specific regulatory or taxation matters is intentionally straw manning his point.

  3. #53

    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    This analysis is nonsense. Somebody who was a seasonal agricultural worker doesn't suddenly apply for a position requiring an MBA or a computer programming degree this year because too many immigrants are competing with him for his job. Nor do people with an MBA working in an office suddenly compete with an aerospace engineer for his job.

    This reads like a stack of cards and I have no reason to believe it isn't, and you've never corroborated anything you've claimed, either.
    It is absurd to think that most immigrants do agricultural work and I used no such example. But a construction worker forced to compete for wages may decide truck driving, and a truck driver may apply for work as a mechanic, or apply to manage a convenience or fast food store Among the highly educated there is less cross competition, but probably more than you think. Not every MBA ends up in a managerial position, and many fast food and other small business managers are immigrants. If you have been to a city you have noticed that many, sometimes all, the taxi drivers are immigrants, while Americans are unemployed.

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    How much is Wal*Mart contributing to the services supporting all of the employees it profits off having but fails to compensate sufficiently to live independently of any outside aid or services?
    ?
    Failing to compensate them sufficiently? Sufficiently according to whom? That cannot be either properly defined, or agreed-upon. The fact remains that some jobs, many jobs in fact, are only worth so much money.

    Take a few courses in economics before making such ridiculous statements.

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    It is absurd to think that most immigrants do agricultural work and I used no such example. But a construction worker forced to compete for wages may decide truck driving, and a truck driver may apply for work as a mechanic, or apply to manage a convenience or fast food store Among the highly educated there is less cross competition, but probably more than you think. Not every MBA ends up in a managerial position, and many fast food and other small business managers are immigrants. If you have been to a city you have noticed that many, sometimes all, the taxi drivers are immigrants, while Americans are unemployed.
    So let me ask you a question Benvolio.

    If all basic services required native born American employees for lack of any alternative, pay (according to you) would rise because of the change in demand. This in turn would also mean the cost of these services would rise.

    When we talk about a minimum wage, you dismiss any benefit to one because you claim prices will simply rise and that will hurt people.

    How do you reconcile your selective application of when you believe prices rising will hurt anyone?

  6. #56
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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Failing to compensate them sufficiently? Sufficiently according to whom? That cannot be either properly defined, or agreed-upon. The fact remains that some jobs, many jobs in fact, are only worth so much money.

    Take a few courses in economics before making such ridiculous statements.
    If you work a full time job and are reliant on outside assistance funded by taxes for basic things like healthcare or housing or in order to eat every month, you are not being paid sufficiently.

    Perhaps you should go work a minimum wage job for a year and come back and tell us how it's easy to live on for anyone who isn't just irresponsible or a leech.

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    .

    Perhaps you should go work a minimum wage job for a year and come back and tell us how it's easy to live on for anyone who isn't just irresponsible or a leech.
    Most minimum-wage workers do not live on it.

    This from the Dept of Labor:

    According to the U.S. Department of Labor, the median annual income of a U.S. worker is $32,140. Federal minimum wage is currently $5.85 an hour, or about $11,500 per year — just above the poverty line. Of the 76.5 million people paid by the hour in the United States in 2006, 2.2% make minimum wage or less. Here are some generalizations we can make about minimum wage workers:
    •Most minimum wage earners are young. While 2.2% of all hourly workers earn minimum wage or less, just 1.4% of workers over the age of 25 are paid at or below the Federal minimum wage. More than half (51.2%) of minimum wage workers are between 16 and 24 years old. Another 21.2% are between 25 and 34.
    •Most minimum wage earners work in food service. Nearly two-thirds of those paid minimum wage (or less) are food service workers. Many of these people receive supplemental income in the form of tips, which the government does not track.
    •Most minimum wage earners never attended college. Just 1.2% of college graduates are paid the minimum wage. If you only have a high school degree, you’re more likely (1.9%) to be paid minimum wage. Those without a high school degree are nearly three times as likely (3.7%) to earn minimum wage. 59.8% of all minimum wage workers have no advanced education.
    •Finally, as you might expect, part-time workers are five times more likely to be paid the minimum wage than full-time workers.

    You can find more information at the official characteristics of minimum wage workers page, and in the page of data tables. Also, the Department of Labor has a map that shows how state minimum wage rates compare to Federal minimum wage rates:


    I graduated from High School at the age of 16, and worked a minimum wage job for a year, then I went to college, and haven't worked at minimum wage since - other than a part-time job while I was in school.

    The minimum wage was never designed to be a "living wage."

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    If you work a full time job and are reliant on outside assistance funded by taxes for basic things like healthcare or housing or in order to eat every month, you are not being paid sufficiently.

    Perhaps you should go work a minimum wage job for a year and come back and tell us how it's easy to live on for anyone who isn't just irresponsible or a leech.
    Furthermore, a situation in which people are forced to FIGHT for jobs that don't fulfill the minimum requirements of survival, is already deeply wrong.

    While reardon is trying to insinuate that Walmart workers have it coming for working a shitty job, he is half right - those jobs ARE worth little money. The point however is that the amount of "little money" should be sufficient for a decent - if modest - living. As it used to be in the past. Any one full time job should allow you to rent a place, pay your bills and not starve. If a job doesn't do it, then the country is having a problem.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    I graduated from High School at the age of 16, and worked a minimum wage job for a year, then I went to college, and haven't worked at minimum wage since - other than a part-time job while I was in school.
    And in which decade did that happen? Because MOST people currently graduating from colleges, are still forced to work minimum wage jobs. Those are the jobs available to them, it's not due to any lack of effort or ability for better.

    Typical libertarian thinking: "I got mine, so whoever didn't have it as good as me, did something wrong, so fuck 'em", peppered with utter disregard for social, economic or historical context.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  10. #60
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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Most minimum-wage workers do not live on it.
    1. Some do

    2. If you make 50 cents, or a buck or two above minimum wage, you're not in a substantially better situation despite being "above minimum wage."

    3. The right-wing argument that it's okay for minimum wage to be far too low for someone to live on relies entirely on the assumption that minimum wage jobs are *only* transient jobs for students or young people entering the workforce, when that simply does not reflect everyone or the reality of how many better jobs are available and how many people can access those jobs.

    4. Only a minority of food service workers are waiters or waitresses earning a tip. There is no tipping at all in much of the food industry, such as nearly 100% of fast food.

    5. The pointing out of how few people with college degrees earn minimum wage obscures two things: one, that the number of people with educations having to take positions and pay far below what they might have 15 years ago is much higher, two, highly educated people are far more likely to have the resources to wait and keep applying for better jobs rather than taking on a minimum wage job... and will generally strongly avoid doing so. At the time I left school, a very large number of the people I graduated with went unemployed for around a year while repeatedly applying for jobs due to the state of the economy.

    The long story short: the list of facts you provided do not change the fact that despite the Republican vision of the American economy as working as intended and the minimum wage as being OK because it only constitutes temporary jobs for entry level workers and students does not reflect reality, nor do other first world countries find it necessary to maintain such a low pay scale even for entry level or totally inexperienced workers. I still see no compelling reason provided here for there to be a picture in which people work full time jobs and struggle merely to eat and house themselves whatsoever each month, let alone for that to be a reality for a very large number of people.

    Among many other things, a major problem with the minimum wage being so pathetically low is that it establishes a standard around which the whole economy forms an idea of what is acceptable pay. A job may offer double minimum wage while still paying so little within the context of the location that people working it full time are living with 3 roommates and losing a couple pounds at the end of every month. This *exact* scenario prompted the series of grocery chain strikes here in California over the last decade, where the grocery management's position was: we pay far above minimum wage and we pay the same wage we pay all of our workers. The employees here responded: yes, and you cannot live on that money anywhere near as well in California like you could in Nebraska.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; January 6th, 2014 at 06:41 PM.

  11. #61

    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Here is an article discussing the pros and cons of minimum wages but of course it is not a liberal/marxist article as you insist.

  12. #62
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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Here is an article discussing the pros and cons of minimum wages but of course it is not a liberal/marxist article as you insist.
    We can't even give you to state a position that makes any sense, we're not even to the point of nitpicking over sources.

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    . The point however is that the amount of "little money" should be sufficient for a decent - if modest - living. As it used to be in the past. Any one full time job should allow you to rent a place, pay your bills and not starve. If a job doesn't do it, then the country is having a problem.
    At what time in the past was it actually that way? Probably never. It's not the way the world works. Poverty is 90 to 95% self-inflicted, but it's perfectly possible for people to better themselves and not stay in their low-paying job for very long. If they have the ambition and more importantly, the work ethic. The latter of which seems to be in very short supply these days.

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    At what time in the past was it actually that way? Probably never. It's not the way the world works. Poverty is 90 to 95% self-inflicted, but it's perfectly possible for people to better themselves and not stay in their low-paying job for very long. If they have the ambition and more importantly, the work ethic. The latter of which seems to be in very short supply these days.
    So what helium were all those people in the 50's and 60's smoking that made them just "imagine" that they had homes and decent pay and good living on retail store manager and other h.s. diploma jobs in the period after WWII?

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    At what time in the past was it actually that way? Probably never. It's not the way the world works. Poverty is 90 to 95% self-inflicted, but it's perfectly possible for people to better themselves and not stay in their low-paying job for very long. If they have the ambition and more importantly, the work ethic. The latter of which seems to be in very short supply these days.

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Most minimum-wage workers do not live on it.

    This from the Dept of Labor:

    [I]According to the U.S. Department of Labor, the median annual income of a U.S. worker is $32,140. Federal minimum wage is currently $5.85 an hour …
    You might wanna update your bookmarks or maybe find another source for your facts.

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    So what helium were all those people in the 50's and 60's smoking that made them just "imagine" that they had homes and decent pay and good living on retail store manager and other h.s. diploma jobs in the period after WWII?
    A. They weren't making minimum wage; and B. The cost of living was significantly lower.

  18. #68
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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    No, I don't, because banning illegals isn't going to bring back jobs college-educated Americans lost in the last 10 years, and it's another topic even though you bring it up in every single thread.
    One truly sad note is that college graduates today make only a little more than unskilled labor at minimum wage when President Nixon first took office.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I realize liberals are not supposed to think for themselves or to read non-liberal sources, but here is an economist explaining how extending unemployment benefits actually extends unemployment:http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...54431457720188

    - - - Updated - - -
    Interesting. But we've never really pulled out of the recession, and he ignores one big reason we haven't: Republicans in Congress have blocked legislation that would have enabled the creation of millions of jobs.

    My view is extend benefits but reduce the amount.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; January 6th, 2014 at 10:48 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    That's truly disingenuous. Who do you think pays the taxes that fund those things? Ever looked at the tax rolls in your county, or any county, for that matter? Corporations, and the stockholders who own them, pay more than "their fair share" of taxes.
    Corporations here pay taxes the same as everyone else: a percentage of the value of their property. The percentage is the same regardless of whether you have a shack that barely escapes being condemned as unsuitable for habitation or a ten-million dollar plant.

    What you're criticizing is, unsurprisingly, the Republican "fair tax" concept. That reveals what you really want -- subsidies for the corporations.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    You need to actually READ a post before your knee-jerk, or is that just plain jerk, reaction kicks in.

    My post referred to county tax rolls at the local level, ie, property taxes. It had nothing at all to do with income taxes, corporate or otherwise.
    In other words, you're trying to dodge reality by looking only at data which (you claim) favors your position.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Though the word “employer” appears 19 times on the web page you linked, I don’t see where it “requires employers to pay health costs for children to AGE 25.”

    If the employer offers a group plan, adding younger members to its participant pool is likely to reduce the cost of coverage for all other persons in the plan. Adding younger members also creates other benefits for both employers and employees.
    He's linking to the requirement that all insurance now cover "children" through age 25.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    For one thing neither minimum wages nor unions solve the problem of poverty and unemployment caused by immigration. They make they the plight of the poor and unemployed worse by pushing up prices.
    Historically, that's not just bullshit, it's rancid, diseased bullshit. Unions are what gave us a strong middle class, and that's what gave us such unprecedented prosperity.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    That statement is factually incorrect. Take Walmart, for example.
    There are five Walmart Stores and one Sam's Club in our county of 200,000

    In 2013, they paid $1,053,059 in ad valorem taxes, which directly affect police, fire, schools, and other public services.
    Their fleet of trucks pays highway taxes (which pay for roads).
    And that doesn't take the amount of sales taxes they collect into account, some portion of which benefits the local county.

    Three or four years ago, before the Obama Recession began, they were paying even more, but as property values declined, so have- the assessments.

    In 2014, another new Walmart will add another $150,000 or so to that number.

    Therefore, it is correct to say that large corporations are carrying their share of the load, perhaps somewhat more than their share.
    And meanwhile they're shoving off the cost of supporting their workers on the taxpayers.

    You can't have it both ways: either corporations have to pay people enough to live on, or the government is going to have to step in and make up for their delinquency. I don't care which -- except that corporations paying what they do is an affront to human dignity and an insult to the founding principles of this country.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    I find it mind-boggling that the propertarian plunderers in this thread don't grasp the fact that if the minimum wage had kept up with inflation, no one would ever had thought of requiring insurance companies to cover offspring through 25 years of age, because those offspring would be able to earn enough to take care of themselves. Back when the minimum wage was $2.50/hr, that was enough to move out on your own, getting an apartment and a vehicle and insurance. To achieve the equivalent earning today, a person has to pull in on the order of $34k/yr.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; January 6th, 2014 at 11:07 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  25. #75
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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I find it mind-boggling that the propertarian plunderers in this thread don't grasp the fact that if the minimum wage had kept up with inflation, no one would ever had thought of requiring insurance companies to cover offspring through 25 years of age, because those offspring would be able to earn enough to take care of themselves. Back when the minimum wage was $2.50/hr, that was enough to move out on your own, getting an apartment and a vehicle and insurance. To achieve the equivalent earning today, a person has to pull in on the order of $34k/yr.
    And at minimum wage you earn less than half that, working full time, taking no vacation time and assuming not being off work for any unpaid holidays. (I never worked any minimum wage job that paid for any time off.)

    So even two people working and living together full time couldn't afford an apartment together. They'd probably need a third to make it remotely realistic. In fact two people pooling 100% of their income in the United States at minimum wage are making as much as one kid working at a Tim Hortons in Canada.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; January 6th, 2014 at 11:31 PM.

  26. #76
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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    A. They weren't making minimum wage; and B. The cost of living was significantly lower.
    You make it sound as though people selectively hunt for minimum wage jobs because they want to earn minimum wage.

  27. #77

    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Here is an article discussing the pros and cons of minimum wages but of course it is not a liberal/marxist article as you insist.
    Here is the article which somehow did not take.http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin...-destroy-jobs/

  28. #78

    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Historically, that's not just bullshit, it's rancid, diseased bullshit. Unions are what gave us a strong middle class, and that's what gave us such unprecedented prosperity.
    Notice that both your unions and your prosperity are in the past tense. Much of the heavy industry which paid such good wages were unionized right out of existence. That is why the unions have lost membership so dramatically. That, and the fact that for the remaining unionized companies, foreign competition provides a ceiling, limiting union demands and results.
    It is absurd nonsense to think that raising the minimum wage does not have an inflationary effect, and inflation affects the poor and unemployed the hardest.

  29. #79

    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I find it mind-boggling that the propertarian plunderers in this thread don't grasp the fact that if the minimum wage had kept up with inflation, no one would ever had thought of requiring insurance companies to cover offspring through 25 years of age, because those offspring would be able to earn enough to take care of themselves. Back when the minimum wage was $2.50/hr, that was enough to move out on your own, getting an apartment and a vehicle and insurance. To achieve the equivalent earning today, a person has to pull in on the order of $34k/yr.
    Nonsense. Buying votes by confiscating from some and giving to others would be the Democrat agenda under any circumstances.

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    You can't have it both ways: either corporations have to pay people enough to live on, or the government is going to have to step in and make up for their delinquency. I don't care which -- except that corporations paying what they do is an affront to human dignity and an insult to the founding principles of this country.
    What tripe. Nobody has to do anything. Companies should be free to pay what the jobs are worth, and employees are free to accept or reject those wages. None of which is any business of the government. It's not their job to "step in" and make up for anything.

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Historically, that's not just bullshit, it's rancid, diseased bullshit. Unions are what gave us a strong middle class, and that's what gave us such unprecedented prosperity.
    Sure. Unions are so great they've driven industry after industry out of the country, leaving the destruction of middle-class America in their wake.

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    So what helium were all those people in the 50's and 60's smoking that made them just "imagine" that they had homes and decent pay and good living on retail store manager and other h.s. diploma jobs in the period after WWII?
    we always point to the 50's as the economic golden era, but isn't it really more the exception than the rule as a decade?

    after WW2, the US had pretty much the only factories and manufacturing in the world that wasn't blown to bits or behind the Iron Curtain. I don't think that's ever been true before or since.

    of course, if you want to propose revitalizing the economy by carpet bombing European and Asian factories, that's probably a stimulus package Republicans could get behind

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by darden View Post
    we always point to the 50's as the economic golden era
    Not. We were in the midst of a serious recession. However, Eisenhower did some major spending: NASA and the Interstate Highway system, for example. We had the revenue because the highest tax bracket was 91%.

    but isn't it really more the exception than the rule as a decade?
    No. The economy was manageable until we became subjected to Reagan's "trickle down" economics.

    after WW2, the US had pretty much the only factories and manufacturing in the world that wasn't blown to bits or behind the Iron Curtain.
    The Western European economy was bolstered by the Marshall Plan. The Warsaw Pact (economically) was irrelevant to the U.S. After American occupation, Japan regained its prominence in the world (minus a military).

    if you want to propose revitalizing the economy by carpet bombing European and Asian factories, that's probably a stimulus package Republicans could get behind
    When Republicons rule, the U.S. will become another Somalia. (with no middle class)
    a Republicon paradise.

    Why should anyone have to know anything? - Sheldon Cooper

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Notice that both your unions and your prosperity are in the past tense. Much of the heavy industry which paid such good wages were unionized right out of existence. That is why the unions have lost membership so dramatically. That, and the fact that for the remaining unionized companies, foreign competition provides a ceiling, limiting union demands and results.
    It is absurd nonsense to think that raising the minimum wage does not have an inflationary effect, and inflation affects the poor and unemployed the hardest.
    No they weren't. They were globalized out of existence. It's disingenuous to say industry left because of the wages unions demanded when minimum wage is higher than what you can pay in third world countries.

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    What tripe. Nobody has to do anything. Companies should be free to pay what the jobs are worth, and employees are free to accept or reject those wages. None of which is any business of the government. It's not their job to "step in" and make up for anything.
    So you support debt/wage slavery, even if it accounted for 90% of the workforce.

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    Not. We were in the midst of a serious recession. However, Eisenhower did some major spending: NASA and the Interstate Highway system, for example. We had the revenue because the highest tax bracket was 91%.


    No. The economy was manageable until we became subjected to Reagan's "trickle down" economics.


    The Western European economy was bolstered by the Marshall Plan. The Warsaw Pact (economically) was irrelevant to the U.S. After American occupation, Japan regained its prominence in the world (minus a military).


    When Republicons rule, the U.S. will become another Somalia. (with no middle class)
    a Republicon paradise.
    +1 on this post.

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    .
    NEWS FLASH: The Senate has just attained the necessary 60 votes to bring a vote to the floor... so Herr Boner can squelch the unemployment benefits extension... DOA in the house.

    *he posts a middle finger*

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    So you support debt/wage slavery, even if it accounted for 90% of the workforce.
    I support being able to apply for a job in a free and open marketplace, where I can reject jobs I do not want, and accept those that I do.

    "Debt/wage/slavery," if it exists, is totally self-inflicted.

  39. #89

    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Democrats are pushing this only for one reason -- they want to make republicans look bad if they vote against it.

    The budget deal passed last month did not expand the benefits -- democrats voted to end benefits. It's all fake politics.

    Why not create an environment that will create jobs -- stop Obamacare, cut unnecessary regulations that the Administration has been pumping out at incredible rate, create some calm in the economy -- it's not the end of the world all the time like Obama says.

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Democrats are pushing this only for one reason -- they want to make republicans look bad if they vote against it.

    The budget deal passed last month did not expand the benefits -- democrats voted to end benefits. It's all fake politics.

    Why not create an environment that will create jobs -- stop Obamacare, cut unnecessary regulations that the Administration has been pumping out at incredible rate, create some calm in the economy -- it's not the end of the world all the time like Obama says.
    they want to make republicans look bad
    The Democrats don't need any help with this.

    Stop Obamacare? Obama was elected in 2008. Obama was re-elected in 2012. Obamacare was judged as being constitutional by the SCOTUS. Your buddy, AKA the Boner, brought up a "Stop Obamacare" bill 43 times. Time to grow up.

    Why should anyone have to know anything? - Sheldon Cooper

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    I support being able to apply for a job in a free and open marketplace, where I can reject jobs I do not want, and accept those that I do.

    "Debt/wage/slavery," if it exists, is totally self-inflicted.
    This is an extension of exactly the same mindset that, 20 years ago, said "the solution to everything is a college education."

    What's a college degree worth today, exactly? It's not even a guarantee of employment, let alone good or well-compensated employment.

    You can parrot off any platitude you want about how anyone's failure in the current American economy is personal sloth or poor choices-- that doesn't change the fact that the structure of our economy only allows a small number to deviate upwards from month to month living, regardless of how many of them attain the qualifications to move up. This Republican idea of everyone who deserves to move up will has always presupposed that for every college degree issued, a new professional job appears somewhere in the workforce.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    The Democrats don't need any help with this.
    Yup. Don't forget the tantrum-esque shutting down of the government.

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    -- that doesn't change the fact that the structure of our economy only allows a small number to deviate upwards from month to month living, regardless of how many of them attain the qualifications to move up. .
    Wrong, yet again. Even the far left loony tunes Huff and Puff post reported 1.1 million new millionaires in 2012.


    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2066177.html

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Wrong, yet again. Even the far left loony tunes Huff and Puff post reported 1.1 million new millionaires in 2012.
    I'm sorry, how exactly does the concentration of larger amounts of wealth in smaller numbers of people translate, in your mind, into everyone has more access to wealth now?

    What you and most Republicans do not seem to comprehend is that to even maintain a structure where some people are earning 1, 5, 10, 15 million dollars a year, there's a whole crapload of people making dirt. And I'm sure you don't believe that's true, but your beliefs don't change reality. The pay of people at the CEO level has increased exponentially in relation to the pay of their typical employee over the last several decades. Any increases in wealth across the American economy are not "trickling down", and haven't, for more than 30 years now.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; January 7th, 2014 at 11:59 AM.

  44. #94

    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Democrats are pushing this only for one reason -- they want to make republicans look bad if they vote against it.

    The budget deal passed last month did not expand the benefits -- democrats voted to end benefits. It's all fake politics.

    Why not create an environment that will create jobs -- stop Obamacare, cut unnecessary regulations that the Administration has been pumping out at incredible rate, create some calm in the economy -- it's not the end of the world all the time like Obama says.
    So you're saying voting against extending benefits is bad. I agree.

    You obediently goose step behind your party and their talking points. How will stopping the ACA and allowing corporations to pollute more create jobs?

    When did President Obama say it's the end of the world? Got a link?

  45. #95

    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I'm sorry, how exactly does the concentration of larger amounts of wealth in smaller numbers of people translate, in your mind, into everyone has more access to wealth now?

    What you and most Republicans do not seem to comprehend is that to even maintain a structure where some people are earning 1, 5, 10, 15 million dollars a year, there's a whole crapload of people making dirt. And I'm sure you don't believe that's true, but your beliefs don't change reality. The pay of people at the CEO level has increased exponentially in relation to the pay of their typical employee over the last several decades. Any increases in wealth across the American economy are not "trickling down", and haven't, for more than 30 years now.
    That simply is not true. In our economy the path to great wealth is to sell something for a small amount to millions of people. Oprah, for instance, is worth 2 billion. Is she causing others to make dirt? Is she causing others to be poor? Bill Gates is worth 40 billion or so. Is he stealing from the poor? Leonardo di Caprio, 200 million. Getting a small amount from millions of people. Zucherman of Facebook, 20 bill or so. The days of feudal, zero sum economics is long gone.
    Last edited by Benvolio; January 7th, 2014 at 01:12 PM.

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    That simply is not true. In our economy the path to great wealth is to sell something for a small amount to millions of people. Oprah, for instance, is worth 2 billion. Is she causing others to make dirt? Is she causing others to be poor? Bill Gates is worth 40 billion or so. Is he stealing from the poor? Leonardo di Caprio, 200 million. Getting a small amount from millions of people. Zucherman of Facebook, 20 bill or so. The days of feudal, zero sum economics is long gone.
    So the path for everyone from struggling to well-to-do is simply to be a mass mainstream televised entertainer.

    Is that what you're saying? The economy can support 40 or 50 million people doing this, yes?

  47. #97

    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    No they weren't. They were globalized out of existence. It's disingenuous to say industry left because of the wages unions demanded when minimum wage is higher than what you can pay in third world countries.
    Our heavy industry was not sent elsewhere, it lost to foreign competition, while the unions were squeezing the life out of US companies.

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    What tripe. Nobody has to do anything. Companies should be free to pay what the jobs are worth, and employees are free to accept or reject those wages. None of which is any business of the government. It's not their job to "step in" and make up for anything.
    Companies don't want to pay what jobs are worth, they want to pay as little as they can get away with. And with their persistent and determined efforts at opposing human freedom of association, they can get away with quite little. Wages today are set not by a free market, but by coercion pure and simple.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Sure. Unions are so great they've driven industry after industry out of the country, leaving the destruction of middle-class America in their wake.
    You'd better stop drinking water -- after all, water can be abused, so it must be inherently dangerous.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    So you support debt/wage slavery, even if it accounted for 90% of the workforce.
    Of course. Today's GOP, especially the Tea Party, are the most ruthless practitioners of relative morality (lifeboat ethics) and social Darwinism seen since there was such a thing as Darwinism. They don't believe that a country is actually a community of any sort, they see it as a system to be run so they can practice the law of the jungle without hindrance.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Will unemployment benefits be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Our heavy industry was not sent elsewhere, it lost to foreign competition
    As I said, globalization. It continues to be irrelevant whatever damage you feel unions did when even minimum wage cannot compete with what you can pay a worker in rural China or Indonesia or the Phillippines.

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