JustUsBoys.com gay porn forum

logo

remove these banner ads by becoming a JUB Supporter.

Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: Quantum and Macro-, WRT liberty and political philosophy

      
   
  1. #1
    Seeking a free country
    Kulindahr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    on the foggy, damp, redneck Oregon coast
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    96,632
    Blog Entries
    78

    Code of Conduct

    Quantum and Macro-, WRT liberty and political philosophy

    I've been reading some books on physics lately, and it struck me yesterday as I was driving and trying to explain the whole quantum concept to a friend that perhaps liberty and freedom are in a much similar situation; to wit, that there is a "quantum level" of liberty, which proceeds from the fact of self-ownership, and a "macro level", which proceeds from the need among human beings for formal structures designed to prevent the acquisition by anyone of sufficient power to truly threaten that individual liberty. Just as with physics, it wouldn't give us a unified theory of liberty, but it would provide a coherent approach to dealing with the tensions generated by the need for governance of whatever sort.

    By governance, I don't mean government, although that is one form. Governance includes any power structure designed to provide checks and balances to encroachments on liberty; perhaps the prime example in American history being the Underwriter's Laboratories, which brought regulation and quality control to manufacturing before government ever got into the game. Another example is corporations, where people pool their resources and risks; a third unions, where people pool much the same thing. Reaching back into history, in the time of the fictitious Three Musketeers, the church served as a balance to the king, and the king to the church. Jumping to the US Constitution, the right to trial by jury was included as a check on unrestrained government, and the different levels of government as checks and restraints on each other. For that matter, not-for-profit groups such as my new one, which focuses on conservation in a way that includes trail work and even installation of rain shelters, specifically for one (very large) county park and its ecosystem, can serve as governance, by taking over care and management of public resources in a way that is not government-dominated.

    Basic libertarian theory as it stands errs in applying the non-coercion principle in two ways: first, with the a-priori assumption that only physical coercion, i.e. the threat or application of physical force, counts, and the closely related assumption that thus only government can be an enemy of liberty. That might be reasonable if human beings were merely physical entities with no soul, which is to say without emotion, without imagination, but we are not. Since we are not, coercion can come from any entity with power to give the appearance of a threat to individuals' well-being, whether that entity be a church, a professional association, an organized crime gang, a corporation, a political party, a media empire, a union, a tribe, or any other organization humans might invent. In what passes for libertarian thinking these days, the glib assumption that if government is shackled and hobbled, then individual self-interest will work together to create a paradise rules all discussion even when -- or perhaps especially when -- unstated. But it's a very simple matter to look at the world around and see that the assumption is false. At that point, we are faced with the problem physicists face with quantum theory: it describes well the interactions of discrete entities on the individual level, but it fails to give guidance on the large-scale domain.

    To employ a common standard from logical thought, current libertarian thinking, that government coercion is a danger to liberty, provides a condition that is necessary to uphold liberty, but one that is not sufficient -- a matter strongly indicated by watching children in their early teens band together to coerce others into conformity.

    Finally, just as in physics rules for the behavior of large amounts of mass and energy cannot contradict quantum rules, neither can the rules for large masses of people contradict the principle of self-ownership. Yet at the same time, they cannot be limited by it, either, lest we fall into the fallacy that description equals prescription.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  2. #2
    Seeking a free country
    Kulindahr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    on the foggy, damp, redneck Oregon coast
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    96,632
    Blog Entries
    78

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Quantum and Macro-, WRT liberty and political philosophy




    I was hoping for some input on whether this even makes sense....
    Last edited by Kulindahr; January 1st, 2014 at 10:11 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  3. #3

    Re: Quantum and Macro-, WRT liberty and political philosophy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post



    I was hoping for some input on whether this even makes sense....
    I don't think most of us even really have a vague idea of what you were talking about. I didn't at least.
    Last edited by Vitamin; January 1st, 2014 at 10:12 PM.

  4. #4
    Seeking a free country
    Kulindahr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    on the foggy, damp, redneck Oregon coast
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    96,632
    Blog Entries
    78

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Quantum and Macro-, WRT liberty and political philosophy

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin View Post
    I don't think most of us even really have a vague idea of what you were talking about. I didn't at least.

    Psst: remove the IMG tags from your smilie. That's why it's not showing up in your post, but it is in mine.
    To abbreviate greatly, my proposal is that the "rules" which apply to individuals in terms of political philosophy, namely that self-ownership entails inherent rights, won't work when trying to decide how the body politic at the level of the whole should work. That would be parallel to the situation in physics, where quantum theory and relativity theory describe those two realms and don't fit together.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  5. #5
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    River Quay - KC
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    24,083

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Quantum and Macro-, WRT liberty and political philosophy

    I somewhat see your comparison but would say that similarity is not identical. Just because the two appear to have similar lack of functionality together does not mean they equate to one another. Whereas one is based in loose and rigid rational thought the other is more regulated by human emotion than any other basis.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  6. #6
    IllumiNaughty Overlord. bankside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Married (to a man)
    Posts
    15,392
    Blog Entries
    2

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Quantum and Macro-, WRT liberty and political philosophy

    I don't know.

    First, I question the metaphor of self-ownership. I think it is itself the product of a consumerist view, narrower than it need be, and unpleasantly constraining to any proper conception of our individuality. One owns objects. I am more than an owned object.

    Next; I challenge the thing meant by the metaphor: I don't think we own ourselves, the more we examine this point.

    After that, I think libertarianism is a fantasy based on those misapprehensions. We are interdependent; it is our nature to not have liberty from one another. We are interdependent in a way that no libertarian can escape. And, inasmuch as we have ethical obligations toward one another, we are interdependent in a way from which no libertarian should be permitted to escape.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte.

  7. #7
    Seeking a free country
    Kulindahr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    on the foggy, damp, redneck Oregon coast
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    96,632
    Blog Entries
    78

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Quantum and Macro-, WRT liberty and political philosophy

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I somewhat see your comparison but would say that similarity is not identical. Just because the two appear to have similar lack of functionality together does not mean they equate to one another. Whereas one is based in loose and rigid rational thought the other is more regulated by human emotion than any other basis.
    I didn't say anything was identical, except insofar as both have micro- and macro-level 'definitions' that don't work together and even seem to contradict.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  8. #8
    Seeking a free country
    Kulindahr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    on the foggy, damp, redneck Oregon coast
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    96,632
    Blog Entries
    78

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Quantum and Macro-, WRT liberty and political philosophy

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I don't know.

    First, I question the metaphor of self-ownership. I think it is itself the product of a consumerist view, narrower than it need be, and unpleasantly constraining to any proper conception of our individuality. One owns objects. I am more than an owned object.

    Next; I challenge the thing meant by the metaphor: I don't think we own ourselves, the more we examine this point.

    After that, I think libertarianism is a fantasy based on those misapprehensions. We are interdependent; it is our nature to not have liberty from one another. We are interdependent in a way that no libertarian can escape. And, inasmuch as we have ethical obligations toward one another, we are interdependent in a way from which no libertarian should be permitted to escape.
    Self-ownership is no metaphor, it's an observable fact. It's self-ownership from which equality before the law proceeds.

    What you're doing is like Einstein's error, insisting that the rules of the micro can't be so different from that of the macro.

    BTW, many, arguably most, ethical obligations one to another actually derive from self-ownership -- being founded in the Golden Rule.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  9. #9
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    River Quay - KC
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    24,083

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Quantum and Macro-, WRT liberty and political philosophy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I didn't say anything was identical, except insofar as both have micro- and macro-level 'definitions' that don't work together and even seem to contradict.
    Okay well what you did say is such a loose comparison then it begs whether it is worth the effort to compare.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  10. #10
    IllumiNaughty Overlord. bankside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Married (to a man)
    Posts
    15,392
    Blog Entries
    2

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Quantum and Macro-, WRT liberty and political philosophy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Self-ownership is no metaphor, it's an observable fact. It's self-ownership from which equality before the law proceeds.

    What you're doing is like Einstein's error, insisting that the rules of the micro can't be so different from that of the macro.

    BTW, many, arguably most, ethical obligations one to another actually derive from self-ownership -- being founded in the Golden Rule.
    Okay so is self-digestion. Yet autophagy is not the basis of a system of government either.

    Nothing is founded in any "golden rule." Our obligations toward one another arise from interdependence, and that this mutuality and cooperation is favoured by evolution.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte.

  11. #11
    Seeking a free country
    Kulindahr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    on the foggy, damp, redneck Oregon coast
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    96,632
    Blog Entries
    78

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Quantum and Macro-, WRT liberty and political philosophy

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Okay well what you did say is such a loose comparison then it begs whether it is worth the effort to compare.
    The point isn't so much the comparison as the question.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  12. #12
    Seeking a free country
    Kulindahr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    on the foggy, damp, redneck Oregon coast
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    96,632
    Blog Entries
    78

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Quantum and Macro-, WRT liberty and political philosophy

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Okay so is self-digestion. Yet autophagy is not the basis of a system of government either.

    Nothing is founded in any "golden rule." Our obligations toward one another arise from interdependence, and that this mutuality and cooperation is favoured by evolution.
    Digestion of any kind has nothing to do with human interactions. All human interaction begins with self-ownership, because each person determines his or her own actions.

    So I take it that you're proposing interdependence as the operating principle for the macro- end of the spectrum. That's not at all unreasonable. The two principles then moderate each other, whereas either of them exalted to being the sole principle leads to disaster.

    Another way to put it is that the two principles are both necessary, but neither is sufficient for building a "wholesome" society.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Terms of Service | Privacy Policy | About JustUsBoys.com | Site Map | RSS | Webmasters | Advertise | Link to JUB | Report A Bug on this Page

Visit our sister sites: Broke Straight Boys | CollegeDudes.com | CollegeBoyPhysicals.com | RocketTube
All models appearing on JustUsBoys.com were over 18 at the time of photography. The records for sexually explicit images required by U.S. 2257 are kept by the
individual producers of the images. The location of the records is available by clicking the Custodian of Records link at the bottom of each gallery page.
© 2012 JustUsBoys.com. The JustUsBoys.com name and logo are registered trademarks. Labeled with ICRA and RTA. Member of ASACP and The Free Speech Coalition.