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  1. #51
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin View Post
    Finally, what's been bugging me about this has been answered. I've been wondering why Utah seemed so confident when it has no argument. They think they have history on their side, but their interpretation suffers from one fundamental flaw: it wasn't so much the "man" and "woman" part that the federal government was requiring it was the "one" part. That's what we'll be arguing (I'd bet), and we'll win.
    The motion for a stay cited case law that would seem to require a history or tradition behind the right being asked for when it isn't current and Kennedy explicitly discounted that theory in Lawrence.

  2. #52

    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    The motion for a stay cited case law that would seem to require a history or tradition behind the right being asked for when it isn't current and Kennedy explicitly discounted that theory in Lawrence.
    Discounted which theory?

  3. #53
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin View Post
    Discounted which theory?
    That tradition has anything to do with rights we are entitled to. When I am on a compute I will pull the quotes.

  4. #54

    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    That tradition has anything to do with rights we are entitled to. When I am on a compute I will pull the quotes.
    Good. That was the best legal argument I've yet heard a against gay marriage, but it does still leave a it mystery as to what Utah is plotting by rushing this. You would think after seeing the tremendous fail before Judge Shelby they would have tried to give themselves more time to come up with a better case.

  5. #55
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Bottom line,all they have is they should be able to discriminate against gay and lesbian couples if they want to.

  6. #56
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    Bottom line,all they have is they should be able to discriminate against gay and lesbian couples if they want to.
    Who is “they?”

  7. #57
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin View Post
    Finally, what's been bugging me about this has been answered. I've been wondering why Utah seemed so confident when it has no argument. They think they have history on their side, but their interpretation suffers from one fundamental flaw: it wasn't so much the "man" and "woman" part that the federal government was requiring it was the "one" part. That's what we'll be arguing (I'd bet), and we'll win.
    No state banned same sex marriage until Maryland passed such a statute in 1973.

  8. #58
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin View Post
    Discounted which theory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    That tradition has anything to do with rights we are entitled to. When I am on a compute I will pull the quotes.
    Two quotes from the Supreme Court on tradition; the second one from Kennedy is current authority.

    "First, the fact that the governing majority in a State has traditionally viewed a particular practice as immoral is not a sufficient reason for upholding a law prohibiting the practice."

    Bowers v. Hardwick (1986). Justice Stevens dissenting.
    “[H]istory and tradition are the starting point but not in all cases the ending point of the substantive due process inquiry.”
    Lawrence v. Texas (2003). Justice Kennedy writing for the majority citing County of Sacramento v. Lewis, 523 U. S. 833, 857 (1998)
    Yet the motion for a stay said this:

    The district court likewise flouted Gluckberg's second requirement for recognizing a due process right, anmely, that it be among the "fundamental rights and liberties which are objectively, deeply rooted in this Nation's history and tradition."

    http://attorneygeneral.utah.gov/wp-c...n-for-Stay.pdf
    When in fact Kennedy did not adopt Scalia's affirmation of that rule in Lawrence.

    Note they are referring to due process and not equal protection - two totally different concepts.
    Last edited by Alnitak; January 2nd, 2014 at 11:46 AM.

  9. #59
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin View Post
    That was the best legal argument I've yet heard a against gay marriage, but it does still leave a it mystery as to what Utah is plotting by rushing this. You would think after seeing the tremendous fail before Judge Shelby they would have tried to give themselves more time to come up with a better case.
    Never attribute to brilliance that which can be explained by stupidity.

    Utah does not have an argument against same sex marriage. Recognizing its incompetence, The state has hired outside counsel to try to come up with such an argument. Utah is rushing this because it is in a panic to enforce misery on a group it despises by prejudice. Also, the longer this goes on, the more difficult it becomes for Utah to argue it is being harmed by gay marriage, and the more embarrassing it is to the Mormon church.

    Be thankful for Utah's incompetence. Utah is the friend that may bring gay marriage to all of America.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; January 2nd, 2014 at 12:05 PM.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    The Mormon Church is pulling the strings on this,thus why it's so rushed. As T-Rexx said,the longer this goes on and the horrible things that were supposed to happen don't,people will start to question what else the Mormon Church is wrong about,and they can't have that.

  11. #61
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    Bottom line,all they have is they should be able to discriminate against gay and lesbian couples if they want to.
    Who is “they?”
    Once again; Who is “they?”

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Once again; Who is “they?”
    The anti-equality side.

  13. #63
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Plaintiff's reply is in so we'll hear from the Supreme Court any time now. Most think a stay will not be granted.

  14. #64
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    The Opposition to the Stay Application is here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/195405369/...sition-to-Stay

  15. #65

    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    If the stay is indeed denied, that's the true sign of the beginning of the end is near in regards to state bans.

  16. #66
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    The Supreme Court just issued a stay. Bad decision for five or more straight justices to feel so insulated and secure in their cold white tower. At least the couples who did marry had a long time. This was a twitter update so we'll see if there will be a written opinion...

    Edit: no written explanation was given.
    Last edited by Alnitak; January 6th, 2014 at 08:56 AM.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    From SCOTUSblog

    The order appeared to have the support of the full Court, since there were no noted dissents. The ruling can be interpreted as an indication that the Court wants to have further exploration in lower courts of the basic constitutional question of state power to limit marriage to a man and a woman. Had it refused the state’s request for delay, that would have left at least the impression that the Court was comfortable allowing same-sex marriages to go forward in the 33 states where they are still not permitted by state law.

    http://www.scotusblog.com/2014/01/co...gay-marriages/ (Lyle Denniston)
    I do not think this is an end of the world development. It is a setback but is closer to a status quo than a repudiation of the lower court. It may be viewed as a slap at the appellate court.

  18. #68
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    ^^ EDIT: I should have said status quo ante (the lower court ruling).

    (I can't imagine the Court was amused that the appellate court kicked the stay issue "upstairs.")

  19. #69
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    It is a setback but is closer to a status quo than a repudiation of the lower court. It may be viewed as a slap at the appellate court.
    No, this is clearly a repudiation of gay marriage by the Supreme Court.

    In order for this stay to be issued, it was necessary for Utah to prove that the lower courts had erred (four times) in failing to grant a stay. The Supreme Court is satisfied with Utah's argument that procreation in Utah has been reduced by gay marriage and that straight marriages in Utah have been damaged.

    The court is signalling that it does not intend to usurp the authority of states to define marriage as they see fit.

    This is very, very, very bad news.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; January 6th, 2014 at 09:29 AM.

  20. #70
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    I do not accept that the decision was on the merits; had it been the decision would have had concurrences and at least one dissent. It is a temporizing measure.

  21. #71
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I do not accept that the decision was on the merits
    The Supreme Court requires that this decision be based on merit.

    Utah's arguments against gay marriage have been beyond absurd. They are, in fact, comical. That the court "agrees" with these arguments is not a statement that the justices are all idiots. They are trying to say that they do not intend to usurp the authority of states to define marriage for themselves, however damaging this may be to America.

    The justices had an opportunity in the Windsor case to bring gay marriage to all of America. In fact, that would have been the logical thing for them to do, based on the merits of the case. They deliberately and deftly avoiding doing this, because this court does not wish to be one remembered to history as great (or even particularly good).
    Last edited by T-Rexx; January 6th, 2014 at 10:06 AM.

  22. #72
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    To quote counsel for the couples:

    "However, this is just a temporary order and it is not unusual for the court to stay a decision declaring a state law unconstitutional pending appeal. Importantly, however, this temporary stay has no bearing on who will win on appeal."

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014...h-on-hold?lite
    The Court can "require" whatever it wants but I recognize kicking the can down the road when I see it. There are "merits" and then there are "merits" and the Court has declined its reasoning - which could be as simple as we'll look at this later because it is coming here anyway or that a stay was in order.

    I obviously have a more jaundiced and skeptical view of the Court than others.

  23. #73
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Equality on Trial opines - i.e., speculates - similarly to me:

    Unfortunately, in today’s order, none of the Justices explained their decision. Also, the order makes no explanation of which judges (or, indeed, how many) voted on which side. In all likelihood, the Supreme Court probably issued the stay because it wanted to return to the status quo of no marriage equality in Utah (the status quo before litigation was initiated, that is) while the courts make their determination on the merits of the state’s laws. Of course, this is pure speculation.

    .... Like the Supreme Court did today, the Tenth Circuit gave no explanation for its decision not to stay the district court order allowing same-sex couples to wed, and unlike today’s decision, the circuit court’s ruling is certainly a sign that Utah has a steep road ahead in keeping couples from marrying in the long run.

    http://equalityontrial.com/2014/01/0...me-court-news/

  24. #74
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    The Supreme Court just issued a stay. Bad decision for five or more straight justices to feel so insulated and secure in their cold white tower. At least the couples who did marry had a long time. This was a twitter update so we'll see if there will be a written opinion...

    Edit: no written explanation was given.
    I think they're moving it to the back burner, so they don't have to so much as talk about it over coffee until it's shoved in their faces.

    Maybe we'll all get fortunate, and Scalia will die and be replaced by a Goldwater type.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  25. #75
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Unfortunately, in today’s order, none of the Justices explained their decision. Also, the order makes no explanation of which judges (or, indeed, how many) voted on which side. In all likelihood, the Supreme Court probably issued the stay because it wanted to return to the status quo of no marriage equality in Utah (the status quo before litigation was initiated, that is) while the courts make their determination on the merits of the state’s laws. Of course, this is pure speculation.
    The requirement for a stay from the Supreme Court is more rigorous than the requirement from the lower courts.

    The Supreme Court requires that the petitioner (in this case, Utah) show demonstrably that the lower courts erred in failing to stay gay marriage in Utah. Moreover, the long history of the Supreme Court is to honor the decisions of the lower courts, unless there is clear evidence that an abrogation of justice has occurred. The Supreme Court will only overrule the lower courts when the evidence is clearly and unequivocally in favor of the petitioner (Utah). SCOTUS would not (indeed, it cannot) overrule the lower courts unless it is convinced that Utah is being harmed by the phenomenon of gay marriage.


    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    .... Like the Supreme Court did today, the Tenth Circuit gave no explanation for its decision not to stay the district court order allowing same-sex couples to wed, and unlike today’s decision, the circuit court’s ruling is certainly a sign that Utah has a steep road ahead in keeping couples from marrying in the long run.
    The court has already found that gay marriage is hurting Utah. It could not have issued a stay, otherwise. Utah's path to victory here is clear. The Supreme Court is persuaded that gay marriage is harmful to America. That is the basis for issuing the stay.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; January 6th, 2014 at 11:44 AM.

  26. #76
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Great opinions guys. I'm leaning towards palbert's view; SCOTUS does not want the district of Utah to domino the rest of the states similarly situated and open up national marriage equality on their own. I think SCOTUS wants to decide that itself.

    This is not an endorsement of the state's position by any means. I don't think the Windsor majority buys the state's arguments. The Supreme Court does not have to follow the rules of a stay. It can do so for any reason it desires. We had Walker's decision stayed, but won at the 9th circuit. Despite the high standard the appellants are supposed to meet, all to often it is done for the status quo or sq ante.
    Last edited by Alnitak; January 6th, 2014 at 12:17 PM.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The requirement for a stay from the Supreme Court is more rigorous than the requirement from the lower courts.

    The Supreme Court requires that the petitioner (in this case, Utah) show demonstrably that the lower courts erred in failing to stay gay marriage in Utah. Moreover, the long history of the Supreme Court is to honor the decisions of the lower courts, unless there is clear evidence that an abrogation of justice has occurred. The Supreme Court will only overrule the lower courts when the evidence is clearly and unequivocally in favor of the petitioner (Utah). SCOTUS would not (indeed, it cannot) overrule the lower courts unless it is convinced that Utah is being harmed by the phenomenon of gay marriage.




    The court has already found that gay marriage is hurting Utah. It could not have issued a stay, otherwise. Utah's path to victory here is clear. The Supreme Court is persuaded that gay marriage is harmful to America. That is the basis for issuing the stay.
    I don't think this is true, but the web is so swamped with articles about Utah I'm having trouble researching anything on it, and have no more time to play with refining my search.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  28. #78
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Great opinions guys. I'm leaning towards palbert's view; SCOTUS does not want the district of Utah to domino the rest of the states similarly situated and open up national marriage equality on their own. I think SCOTUS wants to decide that itself.

    This is not an endorsement of the state's position by any means. I don't think the Windsor majority buys the state's arguments. The Supreme Court does not have to follow the rules of a stay. It can do so for any reason it desires. We had Walkers decision stayed, but won at the 9th circuit. Despite the high standard the appellants are supposed to meet, all to often it is done for the status quo or sq ante.
    That's what makes them supreme.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I don't think this is true, but the web is so swamped with articles about Utah I'm having trouble researching anything on it, and have no more time to play with refining my search.
    Yeah it's like a repeat of perry all over again. This summer will be even worse because there are 23 other cases going on the news will be impossible to follow for all but the most groundbreaking events.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Yeah it's like a repeat of perry all over again. This summer will be even worse because there are 23 other cases going on the news will be impossible to follow for all but the most groundbreaking events.
    But that's what we keep you here for, you are our Brita gay marriage news filter.

    I freely admit I get really lost trying to keep tabs on what's going on in multiple states and see how it's tying together with what the Supreme Court is hearing. So I appreciate someone else having the motivation to distill it for us.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    The standard for a stay is not inflexible.

    University of Utah law professor Cliff Rosky, who also serves on Equality Utah’s board of directors, said ...

    "It’s basically asking, Was the 10th Circuit’s decision reasonable? Could a reasonable argument be made for making the decision the 10th Circuit made?" Rosky said. "It doesn’t matter if the Supreme Court agrees with the ruling, what matters if it was reasonable. If it was, it stands."

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57...e-sex.html.csp
    While it is not my personal view, valid argument exists that it was unreasonable for the trial court and appellate court to deny the stay, particularly given the number of marriages AND the very real probability that SCOTUS would invoke a stay. One does not casually render state laws unconstitutional without review being in order.

  32. #82
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    But that's what we keep you here for, you are our Brita gay marriage news filter.

    I freely admit I get really lost trying to keep tabs on what's going on in multiple states and see how it's tying together with what the Supreme Court is hearing. So I appreciate someone else having the motivation to distill it for us.
    There are only two cases on appeal right now, and the one amendment fight in Indiana. That's where the focus is, and it's not too hard to tackle. Of course there is a lot lot more going on behind the scenes; Virginia could literally start at any minute, unannounced and as dramatic as Utah has been.

    In a few months it will be a bit much to keep track of as the civil process matures and other cases go to trial, but this Utah case will probably keep everyone's attention. Right now it looks like the next one to reach the Supreme Court because Sevcik is just taking too long to get through the 9th Circuit.
    Last edited by Alnitak; January 6th, 2014 at 02:55 PM.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    There are only two cases on appeal right now, and the one amendment fight in Indiana. That's where the focus is, and it's not too hard to tackle. Of course there is a lot lot more going on behind the scenes; Virginia could literally start at any minute, unannounced and as dramatic as Utah has been.

    In a few months it will be a bit much to keep track of as the civil process matures and other cases go to trial, but this Utah case will probably keep everyone's attention. Right now it looks like the next one to reach the Supreme Court because Sevcik is just taking too long to get through the 9th Circuit.
    For reference Sevcik v Sandoval

  34. #84

    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Virginia of course is different from Utah, as no statewide officials will appeal the ruling, so it'll likely end if/when summary judgment is granted.

  35. #85
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    I think the SC had no choice; to have not issued a stay would have been to presume a defeat for Utah. I would suggest that in this matter, at this stage of clarifying constitutional obligations toward equal marriage, even the bigots deserve their day in court.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    The standard for a stay is not inflexible.



    While it is not my personal view, valid argument exists that it was unreasonable for the trial court and appellate court to deny the stay, particularly given the number of marriages AND the very real probability that SCOTUS would invoke a stay. One does not casually render state laws unconstitutional without review being in order.
    Having read the original decision, I wouldn't call it "casual".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I think the SC had no choice; to have not issued a stay would have been to presume a defeat for Utah.
    That is exactly one of the reasons the lower courts refused a stay. The 10th Circuit said in its refusal statement that it did not judge that Utah could prevail on appeal. The state does not even have an argument against gay marriage.

    Utah is claiming unspecified damage to straight marriage from gay marriage, but says the nature of this damage cannot be known or described. WTF? That's not an argument. But it is nevertheless somehow an emergency that the marriages be stopped. This unspecified, nebulous, unknowable damage is so severe that it trumps the quite demonstrable damage that is being done to gay Utahns by the lack of marriage rights. That's what the court is saying.


    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I would suggest that in this matter, at this stage of clarifying constitutional obligations toward equal marriage, even the bigots deserve their day in court.
    This is not about the Utah bigots getting their day in court. That will come.

    This is about Utah's emergency need to stop acts of love and commitment within their state, because such acts are so obviously dangerous and harmful. Even though Utah can't explain why.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; January 6th, 2014 at 10:03 PM.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    That is exactly one of the reasons the lower courts refused a stay. The 10th Circuit said in its refusal statement that it did not judge that Utah could prevail on appeal. The state does not even have an argument against gay marriage.

    Utah is claiming unspecified damage to straight marriage from gay marriage, but says the nature of this damage cannot be known or described. WTF? That's not an argument. But it is nevertheless somehow an emergency that the marriages be stopped. This unspecified, nebulous, unknowable damage is so severe that it trumps the quite demonstrable damage that is being done to gay Utahns by the lack of marriage rights. That's what the court is saying.

    This is not about the Utah bigots getting their day in court. That will come.

    This is about Utah's emergency need to stop acts of love and commitment within their state, because such acts are so obviously dangerous and harmful. Even though Utah can't explain why.

    The thing is, this is a momentous decision. The Court does actually have considerations beyond the narrow legal questions at play. Especially when the public takes a keen interest in a case, and especially when there is political acrimony on both sides, the Court have an obligation to educate the public about the law. They must also defeat critics who whine about judicial bias and judicial activism (Oh no! The Court is making me follow the Constitution! Damned interfering busybodies! Communists! Heretics!), and they must defeat any misperception that they are rushing to judgment without allowing for a full airing of views.

    In view of all these circumstances, this is an argument that must be held, by definition, at the highest court in any country. Thus, even if the entire Court were to agree that the state has no case, they must nonetheless allow the state to have its say, and the options of just dismissing the request for appeal, or of denying a stay, just weren't appropriate.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Possibly not for here but I heard on the same ticker with the UTAH stay, Four Arizona couples are suing the state for equality.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Not surprised by this at all. Let's face it,if the state hadn't bungled the appeal so badly,a stay would have been issued the same day the judge's ruling came down.
    Them issuing a stay says nothing about how they would rule if it got to them.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    This will be an interesting lesson from here on as everyone in state government and most counties are hostile to gay couples. I'm not clear on extent of the stay, i.e. if the state must or will honor the ones that have already taken place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    Not surprised by this at all. Let's face it,if the state hadn't bungled the appeal so badly,a stay would have been issued the same day the judge's ruling came down.
    Them issuing a stay says nothing about how they would rule if it got to them.
    We'll never know, but I don't see why the 10th Circuit wouldn't have denied it three times.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Anyway, briefing will be finished by February 25, and oral argents could be scheduled by mid-March at the soonest.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    Not surprised by this at all. Let's face it,if the state hadn't bungled the appeal so badly,a stay would have been issued the same day the judge's ruling came down.
    Them issuing a stay says nothing about how they would rule if it got to them.
    Every argument out there against gay marriage has been sunk, debunked, shredded, and/or negated to the point that there's no way to make an appeal without bungling it badly. When your arsenal consists of pieces of broken pottery, the amazing thing is not that your effort is bungled, but that it can be put on with a straight face and a modicum of dignity.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The court is signalling that it does not intend to usurp the authority of states to define marriage as they see fit.
    This is exactly what the Windsor opinion said too though, so I'm not sure why this is surprising.

    After Windsor, the SCOTUS clearly wanted the states to explore the issue more imo. The oral arguments and responses gave this impression as well.

    I don't believe they will be ready to make a national ruling for gay marriage for quite a while.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    This is exactly what the Windsor opinion said too though, so I'm not sure why this is surprising.

    After Windsor, the SCOTUS clearly wanted the states to explore the issue more imo. The oral arguments and responses gave this impression as well.

    I don't believe they will be ready to make a national ruling for gay marriage for quite a while.
    Right -- there's no argument at all that the states still get to define marriage. The issue is that some definitions of marriage are unconstitutional, and it's already established that the Court can say so.

    I would have thought that the first ruling SCOTUS would do would concern the full faith and credit clause, telling states that they can't refuse to honor marriages done in other states, but things are sudden;y moving so fast that they really don't have the leisure to be incremental about this.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  46. #96

    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    This is exactly what the Windsor opinion said too though, so I'm not sure why this is surprising.

    After Windsor, the SCOTUS clearly wanted the states to explore the issue more imo. The oral arguments and responses gave this impression as well.

    I don't believe they will be ready to make a national ruling for gay marriage for quite a while.
    Well the soonest they would given the current schedule would be mid-2015. I honestly don't see how they could stave this off much longer then that.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    This is exactly what the Windsor opinion said too though, so I'm not sure why this is surprising.
    It's not surprising, but it is frustrating.

    For much of America, there is no hope of marriage equality without SCOTUS. If SCOTUS refuses to overrule these state constitutional amendments against gay marriage, America will become a bizarre patchwork of enlightenment and repression for many decades.


    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    After Windsor, the SCOTUS clearly wanted the states to explore the issue more imo. The oral arguments and responses gave this impression as well.

    I don't believe they will be ready to make a national ruling for gay marriage for quite a while.
    This is my impression, as well. This court has struggled mightily in a decided effort not to bring marriage equality to America.

    This court has a chance to make history in a very positive way. But, they seem determined to be remembered to history as a cowardly, unenlightened, and mediocre court which held back the rights of gay people long after the right thing to do was obvious.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Right -- there's no argument at all that the states still get to define marriage. The issue is that some definitions of marriage are unconstitutional, and it's already established that the Court can say so.
    Of course they could, I was just saying I don't believe they will be ready to do so for a while longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I would have thought that the first ruling SCOTUS would do would concern the full faith and credit clause, telling states that they can't refuse to honor marriages done in other states, but things are sudden;y moving so fast that they really don't have the leisure to be incremental about this.
    Construct pointed out (when he was still around) that the full faith and credit clause has never applied to marriage. States have rejected heterosexual marriages from other states that conflict with their laws as well.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    It's not surprising, but it is frustrating.

    For much of America, there is no hope of marriage equality without SCOTUS. If SCOTUS refuses to overrule these state constitutional amendments against gay marriage, America will become a bizarre patchwork of enlightenment and repression for many decades.
    I don't think it will take decades, maybe 5-10 years.
    But things are getting better, at least now we have the option of moving to one of 18 states that do have marriage equality and getting full federal benefits.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by hotatlboi View Post
    I don't think it will take decades, maybe 5-10 years.
    But things are getting better, at least now we have the option of moving to one of 18 17 states that do have marriage equality and getting full federal benefits.
    No, if SCOTUS doesn't do it, it will take decades.

    Neither Utah nor Wyoming nor Mississippi nor any number of other states are going to be voting in marriage equality at the ballot box anytime within the next 10 years. These are parts of the country where ignorance begets ignorance. These people can only be brought into the 21st century kicking and screaming.

    Then, once they have lived with marriage equality for a couple years, they will not remember what it was they objected to.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; January 7th, 2014 at 10:03 PM.

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