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Thread: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

      
   
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    Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    The dust has settled a week after Judge Shelby struck down Utah's Amendment 3. During that time, the UT Attorney General's office failed to secure a stay on the ruling four times - three of them at the US Court of Appeals for the 10th Circuit. Now the newly minted AG Sean Reyes is seeking private counsel for the state, which in his estimation will cost Utah's coffers a cool $2 million, and he is likely to get it according to state Republican leaders in the legislature.

    Utah will likely pay millions to fight against gay marriage

    Anyone have BLAG deja vu?

    The state's representation has been in turmoil for separate reasons, so that may explain why its bungled response to Judge Shelby has been so ... well, bungled. It appears that Reyes wants to take no chances because he only has ONE more shot at getting a stay. His next step is to ask the US Supreme Court.

    Fortunately for marriage advocates, Justice Sotomayor is the go to justice for the 10th Circuit. While it is likely that she will refer the stay to the entire court, it is doubtful it will grant a stay. For starters, the state just does not have convincing arguments. In order to get a stay, the state has to show some reason why it is likely to prevail. It is evidence enough that the 10th Circuit, which has a reputation for conservatism, did not put a stop to Shelby's ruling. Second, the Supreme Court is pro-gay, narrowly, but nevertheless likely to favor the respondents. Finally, over 1000 couples have wed by now, and who knows how many more will before the state submits its motion to Sotomayor?

    In any case, Kitchen v. Herbert has now been bumped to the front of the line of all ongoing marriage lawsuits. Only the Nevada case at the 9th Circuit is a little bit further ahead, but for complicated reasons it has not proceeded as quickly as we would like. A few months from now the two cases will probably be neck and neck.

    Because the 10th Circuit has ordered "expedited consideration" of this appeal, it's possible that this case will be THE ONE that goes to the US Supreme Court as early as October next year.

    More on this to come. So stay tuned...
    Last edited by Alnitak; December 29th, 2013 at 11:20 AM.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    I never would have thought things would move this fast.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Good, let the Mormons use all their money on Utah politics now so they can stop interfering in California elections.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    For starters, the state just does not have convincing arguments.
    That would be an understatement.

    Utah has advanced two arguments against gay marriage: that it would reduce procreation in Utah and that it would reduce the quality of straight marriages there.

    When they appeared before his district court, Judge Shelby asked Utah's lawyers to explain how gay marriage would accomplish these things. Incredibly, they had no answer. Their response was "the effects of gay marriage cannot be known," an answer which actually contradicts their fundamental assertion of harm. It is also absurd, given the experience of 17 other states and 16 other countries.

    It is not surprising that neither Judge Shelby nor the 10th Circuit Court were persuaded by Utah's confusion. That is why Utah is paying for "outside help" in structuring a convincing argument for the Supreme Court.

    The state has been unable to figure out how gay marriage is harming it, so it is hiring a law firm to explain it to them. And all of these guys are lawyers.

  5. #5

    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    The marriage for procreation purposes doesn't hold up. The state would have to deny marriage licenses for post menopausal women, infertile couples and any straight couple who can't have children. Also if they believe gay marriage will reduce the quality of marriage there, Utah already has a higher than average divorce rate. Their quality of marriages aren't with the national norm.

    http://hardnewscafe.usu.edu/?p=9419

    The Mormon religion strong emphasis on marriage by encouraging couples to marry early, breed often and deny marriage rights to same sex couples, the Mormon religion is actually hurting marriage, not helping it. Their beliefs have the opposite outcome of what they want.

    Instead of spending millions preventing marriage, how about using all that money building schools, paying teachers higher salaries, improve roads and other infrastructure to enhance the quality of life. Be constructive, not destructive.

  6. #6

    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    I think the case may be wrapped up LONG before October, if it's indeed expedited by the 10th and the Supreme Court swiftly refuses the appeal.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The state has been unable to figure out how gay marriage is harming it, so it is hiring a law firm to explain it to them. And all of these guys are lawyers.
    Lawyers . . . cursed by men since 2200 B.C.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by scream4ever View Post
    I think the case may be wrapped up LONG before October, if it's indeed expedited by the 10th and the Supreme Court swiftly refuses the appeal.
    Briefing schedule has been set.

    http://equalityontrial.com/2013/12/3...rriage-appeal/

    Final reply briefs are due February 25, with oral arguments set not much further after that. So I imagine there will be a decision by summer.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    The marriage for procreation purposes doesn't hold up.
    The argument seems to assume one or both of two things:

    a) If gay marriage isn't legal, gay people have kids more than they do if they can marry same gender
    b) That gay marriage existing would somehow decrease the rate at which heterosexual couples would reduce children

    And of course, either is pretty ridiculous.

    I suppose another one I just thought of would be

    c) gay marriage existing would convert some unknown percentage of straight people (who would have kids otehrwise) to gay, lol.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post

    The Mormon religion strong emphasis on marriage by encouraging couples to marry early, breed often and deny marriage rights to same sex couples, the Mormon religion is actually hurting marriage, not helping it. Their beliefs have the opposite outcome of what they want.
    Cultures that stress traditional gender roles for women and childbirth typically are not gay friendly, and that cuts across religion and nationality. It is true all across the eastern hemisphere regardless of religion, even in Buddhist, atheist, and communist countries. However, that is going to change very soon as we are expecting gay union laws to pass in Vietnam, Thailand, and Taiwan in 2014.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Short bio of Judge Shelby

    Utah Judge Unexpected as a Hero to Gay People

    He was widely vetted and praised by Tea Party Republicans before this decision.

    Senator Orrin G. Hatch, a seven-term Utah Republican, recommended him for a federal judgeship, calling him an experienced lawyer “with an unwavering commitment to the law.” Senator Mike Lee, a Tea Party Republican, said that Mr. Shelby was “pre-eminently qualified” and predicted he would be an outstanding judge.
    Not bad looking either..


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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    The marriage for procreation purposes doesn't hold up. The state would have to deny marriage licenses for post menopausal women, infertile couples and any straight couple who can't have children.
    As I recall, that question came up during arguments before Judge Shelby. Somebody asked the state's lawyers if they intended to introduce a fertility test for women of 50 yrs of age or older, before granting them a marriage license.

    The state responded that it was not necessary for these women to be fertile to marry, because they could assist in procreation by participating in the upbringing of their grandchildren, nieces, etc. Again, the state's response seemed to contradict its own argument (so it isn't possible for gays to participate in bringing up other people's children?).

    It seems that Utah was not ready to argue this case before the courts. Their presentation has been disastrous. That's why they're calling in the Philadelphia lawyers.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; December 30th, 2013 at 03:47 PM.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    There is an extremely well-written, elegantly argued article in today's New Yorker about Utah's Gay-Marriage "Emergency".

    The image of statewide elected officials hurrying to court for an emergency ruling to stop acts of love and commitment, as if they were somehow threats to public order, speaks volumes.
    Well worth a read.


    http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog...emergency.html

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    There is an extremely well-written, elegantly argued article in today's New Yorker about Utah's Gay-Marriage "Emergency".



    Well worth a read.


    http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog...emergency.html
    Thanks for the article.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    As I recall, that question came up during arguments before Judge Shelby. Somebody asked the state's lawyers if they intended to introduce a fertility test for women of 50 yrs of age or older, before granting them a marriage license.

    The state responded that it was not necessary for these women to be fertile to marry, because they could assist in procreation by participating in the upbringing of their grandchildren, nieces, etc. Again, the state's response seemed to contradict its own argument (so it isn't possible for gays to participate in bringing up other people's children?).

    It seems that Utah was not ready to argue this case before the courts. Their presentation has been disastrous. That's why they're calling in the Philadelphia lawyers.
    We have a persuasive case system, so actually restricting the fundamental right to marry around procreation or even establishing a caste of marriages based on procreation is quite dangerous. A married woman whose husband seeks an annulment or woman with no children who wants the protections of common law marriage stands to lose a lot of legal rights if such reasoning is allowed to stand, not to mention the fundamental right to marry itself.

    Good article by the way...

    A lot of people are concerned that the court does not want to be "rushed" into a decision. It's true no one thought any of the cases filed this year would go quite so quickly as Utah's has, though Sevcik v. Sandoval has been in the works almost two years now. On the other hand I couldn't have said it better...

    ... it is impossible to look at the Windsor ruling and not think that the writing is on the wall ...
    Last edited by Alnitak; December 30th, 2013 at 04:13 PM.

  16. #16

    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    As I recall, that question came up during arguments before Judge Shelby. Somebody asked the state's lawyers if they intended to introduce a fertility test for women of 50 yrs of age or older, before granting them a marriage license.

    The state responded that it was not necessary for these women to be fertile to marry, because they could assist in procreation by participating in the upbringing of their grandchildren, nieces, etc. Again, the state's response seemed to contradict its own argument (so it isn't possible for gays to participate in bringing up other people's children?).

    It seems that Utah was not ready to argue this case before the courts. Their presentation has been disastrous. That's why they're calling in the Philadelphia lawyers.
    I've been raising my nephew for the past 10 years and am his legal guardian. He is now 17. I've assisted in procreation according to Utah?

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    I've been raising my nephew for the past 10 years and am his legal guardian. He is now 17. I've assisted in procreation according to Utah?
    Not the act itself obviously, but the welfare of a new generation yes absolutely.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The state responded that it was not necessary for these women to be fertile to marry, because they could assist in procreation by participating in the upbringing of their grandchildren, nieces, etc.
    What kills me is, this is a strictly religious definition of marriage. It doesn't belong in the courtroom. And the interpretation of the Bible as saying that the only purpose of marriage is with the aim of procreation is but merely one interpretation to begin with. No church that I know of bars barren people or elderly people from getting married.

    It's pretty galling to get in front of a judge in a U.S. court and try to rewrite a legal statute based off a completely unconstitutional reasoning.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Short bio of Judge Shelby

    Utah Judge Unexpected as a Hero to Gay People

    He was widely vetted and praised by Tea Party Republicans before this decision.

    Not bad looking either..

    He is sooooo gay.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    The argument seems to assume one or both of two things:

    a) If gay marriage isn't legal, gay people have kids more than they do if they can marry same gender
    b) That gay marriage existing would somehow decrease the rate at which heterosexual couples would reduce children

    And of course, either is pretty ridiculous.

    I suppose another one I just thought of would be

    c) gay marriage existing would convert some unknown percentage of straight people (who would have kids otehrwise) to gay, lol.
    If they're serious about reproduction, why hasn't some smart-ass introduced a bill that would require homosexuals to have children -- maybe by requiring two gays to marry two lesbians in a double-date sort of relationship.....

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    What kills me is, this is a strictly religious definition of marriage. It doesn't belong in the courtroom. And the interpretation of the Bible as saying that the only purpose of marriage is with the aim of procreation is but merely one interpretation to begin with. No church that I know of bars barren people or elderly people from getting married.

    It's pretty galling to get in front of a judge in a U.S. court and try to rewrite a legal statute based off a completely unconstitutional reasoning.
    The fact that a religious view even gets listened to is appalling. Religions don't get special rights -- and any church that really believes it has the truth wouldn't want any.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The fact that a religious view even gets listened to is appalling.
    That's exactly what I would think. When they brought up procreation that the judge would ask, where is this a requisite of marriage, and if they so much as mentioned Christian tradition or the Bible or the U.S. being a Christian nation, tell them they have one recess to reform a proper legal argument or else summary judgment against them.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    The stay is in. Expect the Supreme Court to rule shortly.

    On New Year's Eve? Such an odd time.

    Utah files request with U.S. Supreme Court seeking stay of ruling allowing marriage equality

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Update to the above ^^^

    ECF citing ScotusBlog on Twitter:

    Sotomayor has asked for a reply from the respondents due Friday. So it will be at a week likely before the Supreme Court makes a decision on the stay request.
    Last edited by Alnitak; December 31st, 2013 at 03:26 PM.

  25. #25

    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The fact that a religious view even gets listened to is appalling. Religions don't get special rights -- and any church that really believes it has the truth wouldn't want any.
    All too many of them claim that this is a "Christian" nation and we're supposed to make laws according to what their interpretation of the bible is.

    updated: I see that's pretty much what buzzer said so I'm echoing his statement.

    And if procreation is a requirement for marriage when when will the laws be enacted forcing married couples to have children against their will? If they refuse, prison time..... one of those for profit prisons.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    All too many of them claim that this is a "Christian" nation and we're supposed to make laws according to what their interpretation of the bible is.

    updated: I see that's pretty much what buzzer said so I'm echoing his statement.

    And if procreation is a requirement for marriage when when will the laws be enacted forcing married couples to have children against their will? If they refuse, prison time..... one of those for profit prisons.
    And isn't this the same part of the political spectrum that is horrified at how many kids poor black or hispanic people have in any other context? lol.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    That's exactly what I would think. When they brought up procreation that the judge would ask, where is this a requisite of marriage, and if they so much as mentioned Christian tradition or the Bible or the U.S. being a Christian nation, tell them they have one recess to reform a proper legal argument or else summary judgment against them.
    On the flip side, all it should take is a few people from a religion that supports same-sex marriage, and it should be all over, because the law can't discriminate against their religious practices.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    All too many of them claim that this is a "Christian" nation and we're supposed to make laws according to what their interpretation of the bible is.

    updated: I see that's pretty much what buzzer said so I'm echoing his statement.

    And if procreation is a requirement for marriage when when will the laws be enacted forcing married couples to have children against their will? If they refuse, prison time..... one of those for profit prisons.
    Nah, they wouldn't be likely to procreate in prison. Park them on a pleasant, beautiful island until they pop off a kid.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    On the flip side, all it should take is a few people from a religion that supports same-sex marriage, and it should be all over, because the law can't discriminate against their religious practices.
    Would you be interested in forming a zen Buddhist church with me, Kulindahr? Zen Buddhist monks used to recommend homosexual sex as a form of meditation.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Would you be interested in forming a zen Buddhist church with me, Kulindahr? Zen Buddhist monks used to recommend homosexual sex as a form of meditation.
    Convince me that Zen Buddhism is compatible with Christianity, and I'll give it serious thought.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    I think it's a trap.

    The ingredients of a trap:
    1) a Judge inclined to rule against equality but aware of facing an up-hill battle,
    2) Knowing Utah would appeal to the Supreme Court,
    3) having a case for equality which is weak, or flawed, or incomplete, or otherwise not as robust as other cases moving more slowly through the courts.

    Wouldn't it be smart to propel the weaker case as rapidly as possible to the SC?

    I must admit this theory has less to do with having thought it through carefully and more with not trusting them even as far as I can throw them.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Convince me that Zen Buddhism is compatible with Christianity, and I'll give it serious thought.
    I read through the entire wikipedia section on the "comparison of Buddhism and Christianity" under the irreconciliable foundations part, and the only one that seemed remotely consistent was the monotheistic one-god Nicene Creed vs. Buddhist "polytheism", although I would personally disagree with that notion. Most Buddhist sects do not embrace the idea of a multitude of gods but rather many manifestations of Buddha in different forms, similar to the Christian God's three manifestations. Or you could argue that Buddhism expounds the process of all individuals trying to become as gods through eliminating desire/greed/temptation, but isn't trying to be Christlike the attempt to be godlike as well?

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I think it's a trap.

    The ingredients of a trap:
    1) a Judge inclined to rule against equality but aware of facing an up-hill battle,
    2) Knowing Utah would appeal to the Supreme Court,
    3) having a case for equality which is weak, or flawed, or incomplete, or otherwise not as robust as other cases moving more slowly through the courts.

    Wouldn't it be smart to propel the weaker case as rapidly as possible to the SC?

    I must admit this theory has less to do with having thought it through carefully and more with not trusting them even as far as I can throw them.
    It would be very Machiavellian but then the decision came two weeks after motions and it was quite long and sincerely written it seemed to me.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I read through the entire wikipedia section on the "comparison of Buddhism and Christianity" under the irreconciliable foundations part, and the only one that seemed remotely consistent was the monotheistic one-god Nicene Creed vs. Buddhist "polytheism", although I would personally disagree with that notion. Most Buddhist sects do not embrace the idea of a multitude of gods but rather many manifestations of Buddha in different forms, similar to the Christian God's three manifestations. Or you could argue that Buddhism expounds the process of all individuals trying to become as gods through eliminating desire/greed/temptation, but isn't trying to be Christlike the attempt to be godlike as well?
    You echo Deacon Don, the Roman Catholic deacon I knew who insisted that the two were compatible.

    I'll have to read the Wiki article.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  35. #35

    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    And isn't this the same part of the political spectrum that is horrified at how many kids poor black or hispanic people have in any other context? lol.
    HA!

    Mormons breed like rabbits tho. A guy I worked with was Mormon and 29.... he and his wife (26 yo) had 6 kids already and wanted more. The poor gal looked tired all the time. My next door neighbors years ago were a Mormon family and they had 8 in their small 3 bedroom house. One of their daughters ended up having 12. The more brats they squeeze out, the more Mormons there are.

    And they have the nerve to criticize a large African-American or Hispanic family. Hypocrites.

    One thing I've noticed ..... most every Mormon husband and wife I know personally has been divorced at least once.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    HA!

    Mormons breed like rabbits tho. A guy I worked with was Mormon and 29.... he and his wife (26 yo) had 6 kids already and wanted more. The poor gal looked tired all the time. My next door neighbors years ago were a Mormon family and they had 8 in their small 3 bedroom house. One of their daughters ended up having 12. The more brats they squeeze out, the more Mormons there are.

    And they have the nerve to criticize a large African-American or Hispanic family. Hypocrites.

    One thing I've noticed ..... most every Mormon husband and wife I know personally has been divorced at least once.
    My 100% experience of Mormons in my h.s. and young adult life was that they were a pronounced modern day version of the old stereotype of Catholic school kids/girls/guys. Kinda... conflicted, neurotic-about-it guilty psycho-sluts.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Utah has filed its Motion for Stay with the Supreme Court. The Reply Briefs are due by this Friday.

    The Motion (and authorities) are at http://attorneygeneral.utah.gov/wp-c...n-for-Stay.pdf

    Discussion is at http://equalityontrial.com/2013/12/3...iage-equality/

    Also: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...ng-appeal?lite

    Also: CBSNews discussion (more complete than NBCNews): http://www.cbsnews.com/news/utah-goe...-gay-marriage/

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    It would be very Machiavellian but then the decision came two weeks after motions and it was quite long and sincerely written it seemed to me.
    Yeah....still, has any other decision out-and-out said a ban is unconstitutional? (at the level of the US Constitution...)

    I thought this might be the first case put before the SC to actually confront the core issue of whether there is any constitutional way to ban equal marriage. (up until now it seems that even when the SC affirms equality it has done so on other more nebulous/indirect grounds)

    In Canada we went through this. The Government wanted to pass the buck to the Court as far as negative blowback on equality legislation. "The Court made us do it!"

    So instead of asking whether the then-current ban was constitutional, or whether any alternative ban might withstand scrutiny, they asked if the draft equality law would be constitutional. Duhh...

    Thus we got a Supreme Court ruling on equal marriage without our Court ever having to face the question of whether a ban in any form was compatible with our constitutional rights or not. The Court might well have said some ban was okay. Or they might have had a much more difficult time explaining why it wasn't.
    Last edited by bankside; January 1st, 2014 at 10:35 AM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    In the meantime. I hope that thousands more get married in Utah because the more people who are hitched...the harder it becomes for the State to unhitch them.

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    IllumiNaughty Overlord. bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    In the meantime. I hope that thousands more get married in Utah because the more people who are hitched...the harder it becomes for the State to unhitch them.
    I wish that were the case in Australia.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Yeah....still, has any other decision out-and-out said a ban is unconstitutional? (at the level of the US Constitution...)

    I thought this might be the first case put before the SC to actually confront the core issue of whether there is any constitutional way to ban equal marriage. (up until now it seems that even when the SC affirms equality it has done so on other more nebulous/indirect grounds)
    Yes, that was the issue in Hollingsworth v. Perry - the federal lawsuit against California's Proposition 8.

    The justices passed on considering the central question because the losers didn't have any right to appeal. While the Supreme Court did not decide anything, that was certainly the district court's conclusion, which was allowed to stand.

    Thus, this will be the first case in which Supreme Court will be forced to consider it, but not the first constitutional victory. Really they had to know it was coming because there were already four other lawsuits by oral arguments this past March. Specifically Kitchen v. Herbert was filed on March 25.
    Last edited by Alnitak; January 1st, 2014 at 11:56 AM.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    My local paper's opinion of Kitchen v. Herbert

    Our view: Cases in Utah, Ohio herald the inevitability of same-sex marriage

    And on the stay specifically...

    The only specific potential harm the state cited was the possibility that, if the decision is later overturned, those who married in the meantime would find themselves in legal limbo. Implicit in that argument, though, is the notion that banning same-sex marriages is causing those couples harm, and that granting them causes no specific injury to anyone else.
    Because the state said this in its motion...

    "[Same sex couples] and their children will likely suffer dignitary and financial losses from invalidation of their marriages..."

    http://attorneygeneral.utah.gov/wp-c...n-for-Stay.pdf
    No shit Sherlock.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Yes, that was the issue in Hollingsworth v. Perry - the federal lawsuit against California's Proposition 8.

    The justices passed on considering the central question because the losers didn't have any right to appeal. While the Supreme Court did not decide anything, that was certainly the district court's conclusion, which was allowed to stand.

    Thus, this will be the first case in which Supreme Court will be forced to consider it, but not the first constitutional victory. Really they had to know it was coming because there were already four other lawsuits by oral arguments this past March. Specifically Kitchen v. Herbert was filed on March 25.
    Good! 10 characters.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    My local paper's opinion of Kitchen v. Herbert

    Our view: Cases in Utah, Ohio herald the inevitability of same-sex marriage

    And on the stay specifically...



    Because the state said this in its motion...



    No shit Sherlock.
    Gotta love it when the other guy supplies the arguments to sink himself.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  45. #45
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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    The state did have the option of asking the Court to move immediately, itself, to decide the ultimate question of state power to ban same-sex marriages. But, after consulting with lawyers outside the state government’s own legal team, the officials appeared to be operating on the premise that their best chance of delaying such marriages was to ask for the least sweeping order from the Court.

    If the Justices are hesitant to get involved in the basic constitutional issue at this point, and they showed some reluctance to do that when they had s chance last Term, they might be more agreeable to a simple request to block Judge Shelby’s ruling until it is further tested in the Tenth Circuit.
    ...
    Although the application is initially a plea for a stay of the Shelby ruling, to put a stop to the continuing issuance of same-sex marriage licenses in Utah, the substance of the state’s filing is that it actually anticipates that the ultimate issue is headed for the Supreme Court, and thus there should be a postponement of any same-sex marriages in Utah until there is a final ruling by the Supreme Court.

    http://www.scotusblog.com/2013/12/ut...s/#more-202758
    I no longer recall the standard for a SCOTUS stay but "irreparable harm" should be in the mix. By conceding the couples will suffer indignity and harm they seem to have given away the ballgame. To me bad lawyering seems to have left the cat out of the box.

    SCOTUS is wont to face Constitutional questions. Denying the stay allows them to defer to a later day and see how the lower courts line up.

    I don't see that the trial judge usurped his authority. He had two choices: constitutional or unconstitutional. And those are the choices that SCOTUS left to be tested in the lower courts.

    (Is Boise, Idaho known as a bastion of Constitutional argument? I know nothing of the firm the state engaged.)

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    NOTE: Utah's listed outside counsel (Stewart Taylor & Morris) are all Brigham Young Law alumni. Lead Stewart clerked for Chief Justice Warren Burger.

    Keeping it in the family.

  47. #47

    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    NOTE: Utah's listed outside counsel (Stewart Taylor & Morris) are all Brigham Young Law alumni. Lead Stewart clerked for Chief Justice Warren Burger.

    Keeping it in the family.
    Well, they are all one family you know.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I no longer recall the standard for a SCOTUS stay but "irreparable harm" should be in the mix.
    It IS in the mix.

    One of the problems for Utah has been the state's inability to demonstrate that it has been harmed by gay marriage. In fact, all of the evidence seems to support the harm being suffered as exclusively by gay people who want to marry, not the state of Utah.


    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    By conceding the couples will suffer indignity and harm they seem to have given away the ballgame. To me bad lawyering seems to have left the cat out of the box.
    Yes, exactly.

    Fortunately for us, Utah's representation has been nothing short of incompetent. Every time they open their mouths, they say things that hurt their case.


    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I don't see that the trial judge usurped his authority. He had two choices: constitutional or unconstitutional.
    I agree.

    Utah's argument that Judge Shelby usurped his authority by ruling on the constitutionality of Utah's gay marriage constitutional amendment is strange. The lawsuit presented to Shelby's court was challenging the Utah law. Regardless of which way he ruled, he had no choice but to rule on the law. And that is the responsibility of his court, anyway.

    I am no lawyer, but I do not understand the logic of challenging Shelby's authority to rule on Utah law. I thought that was what Shelby was expected to do.


    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Is Boise, Idaho known as a bastion of Constitutional argument? I know nothing of the firm the state engaged.
    Boise is a bastion of Mormon conservatism.

    All the lawyers in Stewart, Taylor, & Morris are BYU law graduates.

    It seems to me that Utah would have done better to get outside help that is not so beholden to its own Mormon thinking. This is intellectual inbreeding. The arguments have not been very successful to date. Does Utah really think that someone else making the same arguments that have failed for them will somehow succeed?

    Utah really doesn't seem to understand how stupid have been their arguments. I find that fact remarkable. My theory is that the people of Utah have become so accustomed to blind acceptance of the authority of their church that they have lost the ability to reason and to question. People there dare not argue ideas persuasively, because the persuasive argument of new ideas for them is so often blasphemy.

    The Mormon church is profoundly authoritarian. One of the surest ways to get excommunicated is to question the church's (oddly demonstrably) false teachings. So, they have put in place a culture that does not tolerate questioning church teachings. But that willingness to accept and believe the absurd because it comes from the authority of the church does not serve them well in federal court.

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    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Cultures that stress traditional gender roles for women and childbirth typically are not gay friendly, and that cuts across religion and nationality.
    “There is a great irony in the fact that for Utah to be allowed to become a state, it was compelled by the federal government to define marriage as a union between one man and one woman.”

    – Utah Attorney General Philip Lott [Link]

  50. #50

    Re: Utah's Marriage Fight Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    “There is a great irony in the fact that for Utah to be allowed to become a state, it was compelled by the federal government to define marriage as a union between one man and one woman.”

    – Utah Attorney General Philip Lott [Link]
    Finally, what's been bugging me about this has been answered. I've been wondering why Utah seemed so confident when it has no argument. They think they have history on their side, but their interpretation suffers from one fundamental flaw: it wasn't so much the "man" and "woman" part that the federal government was requiring it was the "one" part. That's what we'll be arguing (I'd bet), and we'll win.
    Last edited by Vitamin; January 1st, 2014 at 06:36 PM.

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