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  1. #1

    US District Court Strikes Down part of Utah Polygamy Law [SPLIT]

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    These days the Bill of Rights, particularly as concerns NSA, are most frequently viewed in the rear view mirror.
    More often used to justify judicial legislation. Last week a court in Utah held the poligamy prohibition unconstitutional. Who needs voters or Congress when judges make the laws they prefer.

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    Re: Ukraine protests: McCain warns US could act over Russia deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    More often used to justify judicial legislation. Last week a court in Utah held the poligamy prohibition unconstitutional. Who needs voters or Congress when judges make the laws they prefer.
    Wrong. It disallowed the cohabitation restriction.

    ◾It Doesn't Actually Legalize Polygamous Marriages. Waddoups' decision leaves intact Utah's ban on obtaining multiple marriage licenses, so polygamy remains illegal "in the literal sense." As the libertarian Volokh Conspiracy blog noted, the decision "in no way establishes a constitutional right to plural marriage." Waddoups simply found Utah's prohibition of cohabitation unconstitutional.

    http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/12...tah-pol/197294
    The decision has nothing to do with marriage rights. It deals with what happens within the wall of the home, citing Lawrence v. Texas, the 2003 sodomy decision.

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    Re: Ukraine protests: McCain warns US could act over Russia deal

    Even if it was the first step toward re-legalizing polygamy, I've never seen any reason to disallow people from following their hearts into any consenting relationships they desire.

    However, there IS a legitimate State interest for polygamy to remain illegal. The demographics of humans have resulted in nearly an equal balance of males and females. I believe female humans are like 52% or something. Has this ratio been changing at all in recent decades?

    Polygamy is ALMOST INVARIABLY one man, and multiple women. I don't think I've ever heard of three or seven men all marrying the same woman. Polygamy would quickly erase the balance between the genders, and a smaller number of men would eventually erase the pool of available women, removing the option of marriage for many men.

    Some people would use this argument to say that same-sex marriages cannot be allowed, either, because it will also destroy the balance between the genders of available partners. Those people will usually "conveniently" forget that it is not ONLY men who marry within their own gender, but women as well.

    I don't know enough about the history of polygamy, either. Was it almost always one man marrying TWO women...or was it sometimes one man marrying four, or seven, or seventeen (or more) women?

    In that controversy about a Mormon compound in northern Arizona (I think near Lake Powell/Page) a few years back, didn't the head guy have marriages to a lot more than two women?
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    Re: Ukraine protests: McCain warns US could act over Russia deal

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    Even if it was the first step toward re-legalizing polygamy, I've never seen any reason to disallow people from following their hearts into any consenting relationships they desire.

    However, there IS a legitimate State interest for polygamy to remain illegal. The demographics of humans have resulted in nearly an equal balance of males and females. I believe female humans are like 52% or something. Has this ratio been changing at all in recent decades?

    Polygamy is ALMOST INVARIABLY one man, and multiple women. I don't think I've ever heard of three or seven men all marrying the same woman. Polygamy would quickly erase the balance between the genders, and a smaller number of men would eventually erase the pool of available women, removing the option of marriage for many men.

    Some people would use this argument to say that same-sex marriages cannot be allowed, either, because it will also destroy the balance between the genders of available partners. Those people will usually "conveniently" forget that it is not ONLY men who marry within their own gender, but women as well.

    I don't know enough about the history of polygamy, either. Was it almost always one man marrying TWO women...or was it sometimes one man marrying four, or seven, or seventeen (or more) women?

    In that controversy about a Mormon compound in northern Arizona (I think near Lake Powell/Page) a few years back, didn't the head guy have marriages to a lot more than two women?
    Should the people be allowed to vote on the change to a polygamous society, or should this be imposed by judges?

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    Re: Ukraine protests: McCain warns US could act over Russia deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Should the people be allowed to vote on the change to a polygamous society, or should this be imposed by judges?
    I think you already answered your own question in an earlier post. Or maybe that was intended as a question too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Who needs voters or Congress when judges make the laws they prefer.

    How did a thread about protests in Ukraine turn into a debate about polygamy?

    In fact, the tradition of polygamy is much older than the idea of marriage as between only one man and one woman. [Link]

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    Re: Ukraine protests: McCain warns US could act over Russia deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    More often used to justify judicial legislation. Last week a court in Utah held the poligamy prohibition unconstitutional. Who needs voters or Congress when judges make the laws they prefer.
    That's an obvious one, right out of the First Amendment: polygamy is a matter of free exercise of religion for some, and thus can't be forbidden. The only principle the US has allowed to trump the free exercise of religion is that safety of the individual, and that mostly with children.

    So to anyone who understands the law in the U.S., this one was a no-brainer -- no "new law", just making sure that the supreme law of the land is followed.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Ukraine protests: McCain warns US could act over Russia deal

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Wrong. It disallowed the cohabitation restriction.



    The decision has nothing to do with marriage rights. It deals with what happens within the wall of the home, citing Lawrence v. Texas, the 2003 sodomy decision.
    Polygamy becoming legal is an inevitable consequence of the free exercise of religion clause.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Ukraine protests: McCain warns US could act over Russia deal

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    Even if it was the first step toward re-legalizing polygamy, I've never seen any reason to disallow people from following their hearts into any consenting relationships they desire.

    However, there IS a legitimate State interest for polygamy to remain illegal. The demographics of humans have resulted in nearly an equal balance of males and females. I believe female humans are like 52% or something. Has this ratio been changing at all in recent decades?

    Polygamy is ALMOST INVARIABLY one man, and multiple women. I don't think I've ever heard of three or seven men all marrying the same woman. Polygamy would quickly erase the balance between the genders, and a smaller number of men would eventually erase the pool of available women, removing the option of marriage for many men.

    Some people would use this argument to say that same-sex marriages cannot be allowed, either, because it will also destroy the balance between the genders of available partners. Those people will usually "conveniently" forget that it is not ONLY men who marry within their own gender, but women as well.

    I don't know enough about the history of polygamy, either. Was it almost always one man marrying TWO women...or was it sometimes one man marrying four, or seven, or seventeen (or more) women?

    In that controversy about a Mormon compound in northern Arizona (I think near Lake Powell/Page) a few years back, didn't the head guy have marriages to a lot more than two women?
    Hey, with gays getting married, and there being fewer lesbians than gays, someone has to step up and be a husband to more than one woman, to restore balance!

    There have been cases in U.S. history of two men marrying one woman, as well. And that's just freedom of association, and the federal government has no business meddling with it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Ukraine protests: McCain warns US could act over Russia deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Should the people be allowed to vote on the change to a polygamous society, or should this be imposed by judges?
    The people should never be allowed to vote on human rights. Polygamy has to be legal because of the First Amendment.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Ukraine protests: McCain warns US could act over Russia deal

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    How did a thread about protests in Ukraine turn into a debate about polygamy?
    For what it's worth:

    Ukrainians are not allowed to enter into polygamous marriages. However, immigrants who had a polygamous marriage in a foreign country will have their marriage recognized and honored in Ukraine.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; December 17th, 2013 at 08:12 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: US District Court Strikes Down part of Utah Polygamy Law

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    Even if it was the first step toward re-legalizing polygamy, I've never seen any reason to disallow people from following their hearts into any consenting relationships they desire.

    However, there IS a legitimate State interest for polygamy to remain illegal. The demographics of humans have resulted in nearly an equal balance of males and females. I believe female humans are like 52% or something. Has this ratio been changing at all in recent decades?

    Polygamy is ALMOST INVARIABLY one man, and multiple women. I don't think I've ever heard of three or seven men all marrying the same woman. Polygamy would quickly erase the balance between the genders, and a smaller number of men would eventually erase the pool of available women, removing the option of marriage for many men.

    Some people would use this argument to say that same-sex marriages cannot be allowed, either, because it will also destroy the balance between the genders of available partners. Those people will usually "conveniently" forget that it is not ONLY men who marry within their own gender, but women as well.

    I don't know enough about the history of polygamy, either. Was it almost always one man marrying TWO women...or was it sometimes one man marrying four, or seven, or seventeen (or more) women?

    In that controversy about a Mormon compound in northern Arizona (I think near Lake Powell/Page) a few years back, didn't the head guy have marriages to a lot more than two women?
    In some Asian countries the birthrates have been artificially skewed towards males over females. Those countries are facing a demographic disaster as the gender balance grows more and more out of whack. One solution would be one woman, many men marriages but the very male centric social factors that caused the problem in the first place would probably not stand for it.
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    Re: US District Court Strikes Down part of Utah Polygamy Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    In some Asian countries the birthrates have been artificially skewed towards males over females. Those countries are facing a demographic disaster as the gender balance grows more and more out of whack. One solution would be one woman, many men marriages but the very male centric social factors that caused the problem in the first place would probably not stand for it.
    They could export men to places where wars have left the imbalance the other way.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Ukraine protests: McCain warns US could act over Russia deal

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    .... How did a thread about protests in Ukraine turn into a debate about polygamy? ....
    Silly you. Now that's funny.

  14. #14

    Re: Ukraine protests: McCain warns US could act over Russia deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's an obvious one, right out of the First Amendment: polygamy is a matter of free exercise of religion for some, and thus can't be forbidden. The only principle the US has allowed to trump the free exercise of religion is that safety of the individual, and that mostly with children.

    So to anyone who understands the law in the U.S., this one was a no-brainer -- no "new law", just making sure that the supreme law of the land is followed.
    Nonsense. The fact that their religion allows polygamy does not give it first amendment protection.

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    Re: US District Court Strikes Down part of Utah Polygamy Law [SPLIT]

    Jesus Christ.

    We just knew that when they started to allow fags to marry it would be no time at all before the straights decided they had to have more than one spouse in order to one up us.

    Next it will be dogs marrying horses.

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    Re: Ukraine protests: McCain warns US could act over Russia deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Hey, with gays getting married, and there being fewer lesbians than gays, someone has to step up and be a husband to more than one woman, to restore balance!
    Gay weddings are heavily weighted towards lesbian couples - about 2/3 of gay weddings are lesbian in fact. Explanations vary for this, but it's obvious to me that men are far more promiscuous.

    By the way, Frankfrank is right. Right or wrong, polygamy does create a class of unmarriageable men because it is largely exercised by wealthy or otherwise socially superior men marrying multiple women.

    Anyway, the headlines on this news piece are sensationalist. Polygamy is still unlawful in Utah. The state at a minimum cannot tell people where and with whom they can live. Some exceptions, however, might stand for houses of prostitution.
    Last edited by Alnitak; December 18th, 2013 at 07:12 AM.

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    Re: Ukraine protests: McCain warns US could act over Russia deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Nonsense. The fact that their religion allows polygamy does not give it first amendment protection.
    So you'd have no problem with laws forbidding any food items being used in church, or forbidding Bible verses on the outside of houses, or red dots on foreheads....

    I can't decide if your absolute inability to read plain words plainly indicates you really are a lawyer, or that you couldn't possibly be.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; December 18th, 2013 at 01:01 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: US District Court Strikes Down part of Utah Polygamy Law [SPLIT]

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Gay weddings are heavily weighted towards lesbian couples - about 2/3 of gay weddings are lesbian in fact. Explanations vary for this, but it's obvious to me that men are far more promiscuous.

    By the way, Frankfrank is right. Right or wrong, polygamy does create a class of unmarriageable men because it is largely exercised by wealthy or otherwise socially superior men marrying multiple women.
    That used to be balanced by the fact that so many men died in war. But if, as studies indicate, there are more gays than lesbians, that's also leaving a batch of women with no men.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Anyway, the headlines on this news piece are sensationalist. Polygamy is still unlawful in Utah. The state at a minimum cannot tell people where and with whom they can live. Some exceptions, however, might stand for houses of prostitution.
    All the prostitutes in a brothel could marry each other, and then their customers would be having sex with married women....

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: US District Court Strikes Down part of Utah Polygamy Law [SPLIT]

    Virginia's "co-habituation" law was struck down recently too.

    TBH, to understand the absurdity of polygamy laws...



    I still chuckle over MA's "archaic" living situation laws too. It is still on the books that it is illegal to have more than 8 women living in a domicile unless it is used as a convent or a brothel. It is why sorority houses are inadvertently banned in MA; although they are not far off from brothels.

  20. #20
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    Re: US District Court Strikes Down part of Utah Polygamy Law [SPLIT]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    They could export men to places where wars have left the imbalance the other way.
    I guess that analysis of the "imbalance" would further require digging into the nuances of it all. I think that men marrying into gay relationships are, by and large, men who would never marry a woman, so they aren't really part of that pool.

    What about lesbian marriages, though - would more or fewer (by percentage) of these women be likely to marry a man, if the same-gender option wasn't available?

    Whatever way this would go, and whether the total male and female "potential two-gender spouse pools" are nearly equal or rather far apart, polygamy could make the pools considerably less equal.

    I don't have an issue with polygamy myself, though, other than it just seeming rather odd or "weird" to me. Whatever floats your boat, and doesn't harm anybody else.

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Next it will be dogs marrying horses refrigerators.
    Corrected for, uh, truth?
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    Re: US District Court Strikes Down part of Utah Polygamy Law [SPLIT]

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Virginia's "co-habituation" law was struck down recently too.

    TBH, to understand the absurdity of polygamy laws...



    I still chuckle over MA's "archaic" living situation laws too. It is still on the books that it is illegal to have more than 8 women living in a domicile unless it is used as a convent or a brothel. It is why sorority houses are inadvertently banned in MA; although they are not far off from brothels.
    1. Massachusetts has brothels? I didn't know they were that progressive.

    2. What if it's a convent and a brothel?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: US District Court Strikes Down part of Utah Polygamy Law [SPLIT]

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    I don't have an issue with polygamy myself, though, other than it just seeming rather odd or "weird" to me. Whatever floats your boat, and doesn't harm anybody else.
    I don't remember where it was we were studying, but there's a culture somewhere that holds that if a man has the wealth to support another wife, and there aren't enough men, the wealthy guy is obligated to take a second, third, or even fourth wife in order that they have a home.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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