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Thread: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

      
   
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    New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    I sure hope these people continue their momentum. As one having COPD and living a mile from all the refineries here I could sure use some help in that area. But also there are a lot more evils that could be controlled.

    http://www.treehugger.com/fossil-fue...y-no-coal.html

    New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Sierra Club
    Energy / Fossil Fuels
    December 11, 2013

    By Justin Guay of the Sierra Club International Program.

    This year, the world saw tremendous momentum demanding a move beyond coal. From India to Germany, the United States to Indonesia, communities are standing up and demanding clean air and clean water. From global social media storms to local protests and marches with thousands of people, acts of grassroots activism are becoming the strongest tools we have to curb toxic coal pollution that has been killing people for hundreds of years. That growing movement is sounding a clarion call: it’s time to move beyond coal.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Well...at the cost of mega-corporations raping the hell out of us with wind power...Ontario has effectively closed the Nanticoke Generating station which was one of the biggest polluters in North America. You're welcome New York and New England.

    Ironically though, next door to it is the US Steel plant that uses coke to make all the bits for the endless vista of turbines that now is the landscape of south west Ontario.

  3. #3

    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Is there any energy that is OK? Wind kills the birds.

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Fact is most of the developing world uses coal because it the most economical solution that will provide the baseline power needed for modern electrical grids that wind and solar cannot currently provide. The US has lucked out to having abundant supplies of natural gas to fall back on but that is not the case in most of the world. The best alternative is thorium fueled nuclear plants for base power supplemented as much as possible by wind and solar.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Is there any energy that is OK? Wind kills the birds.
    I can't even with this statement...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Is there any energy that is OK? Wind kills the birds.
    Really? Then I'd like a bunch of wind power installations where starlings are abundant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Fact is most of the developing world uses coal because it the most economical solution that will provide the baseline power needed for modern electrical grids that wind and solar cannot currently provide. The US has lucked out to having abundant supplies of natural gas to fall back on but that is not the case in most of the world. The best alternative is thorium fueled nuclear plants for base power supplemented as much as possible by wind and solar.
    Doesn't the thorium cycle produce some really, really long half-life waste?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Really? Then I'd like a bunch of wind power installations where starlings are abundant.



    Doesn't the thorium cycle produce some really, really long half-life waste?
    I'm not really sure, I've never read that. The primary reason we use uranium instead of thorium which is much more abundant is that it is a lot easier to make nuclear weapons with uranium reactors, which was the goal when the current technologies were developed by the US and Soviets. I know that thorium reactors are supposedly inherently safer than the current uranium fueled designs. And the proposed solution to disposing of long lived fuel waste is recycling them into the fuel of fast neutron reactors to burn them up.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Wind power is more likely to kill bats than birds.

    Coal doesn't need to be banned, the just need to filter all the particulate out of the smokestack, and then capture and sequester the CO2
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte.

  9. #9

    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Is there any energy that is OK? Wind kills the birds.
    The Obama Administration said it was even OK for the wind turbines to kill bald eagles.
    "That’s the good thing about being president. I can do whatever I want.” Barack Obama, 2-10-14

  10. #10

    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    China and India open 4 new coal plants every year. Maybe crazy uncle joe can talk to them or kerry can speak to them in french.

    Global demand for coal is expected to grow to 8.9 billion tons by 2016 from 7.9 billion tons this year. China is expected to add about 160 new coal-fired plants to the 620 operating now, within four years. During that period, India will add more than 46 plants.
    http://www.thegwpf.org/china-india-b...r-plants-week/
    "That’s the good thing about being president. I can do whatever I want.” Barack Obama, 2-10-14

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    The Obama Administration said it was even OK for the wind turbines to kill bald eagles.
    Needs to be cited. Do the Obamas also eat the eggs of the murdered eagles?

  12. #12

    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    Needs to be cited. Do the Obamas also eat the eggs of the murdered eagles?
    Amusing to see even this topic can be used for Obama bashing.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...ent%20syndrome
    Last edited by CowboyBob; December 16th, 2013 at 06:21 PM.

  13. #13

    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    Needs to be cited. Do the Obamas also eat the eggs of the murdered eagles?
    President Obama Will Sacrifice Bald Eagles To Fight Global Warming

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestay...lobal-warming/
    "That’s the good thing about being president. I can do whatever I want.” Barack Obama, 2-10-14

  14. #14

    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    I thought republicans didn't care about rare species. It might hurt profits.

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    President Obama Will Sacrifice Bald Eagles To Fight Global Warming

    [url]http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2013/12/11/president-obama-will-sacrifice-bald-eagles-to-fight-global-warming/[/url]
    James Taylor, the article’s author, is a “senior fellow for environment policy” at the Heartland Institute.


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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Coal... Coal is excitement
    Oohoohoo Coal
    Coal is adventure
    Glamor and glitter
    Fashion and fame

    Coal is truly outrageous
    Truly, truly,
    truly outrageous
    Woo oohoohooo Coal...
    Coal
    the music's
    contagious
    (outrageous)

    But we're the Windmills
    Our songs are better
    We are the Windmills
    (the Windmills)
    and we're gonna get her

    Coal (Coal)
    The music's
    contagious
    (outrageous)
    Coal is my name
    No one else is the same
    Coal is my name!
    Coal!



    Those bloody mills run on one thing only and that's subsidies..

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I'm not really sure, I've never read that. The primary reason we use uranium instead of thorium which is much more abundant is that it is a lot easier to make nuclear weapons with uranium reactors, which was the goal when the current technologies were developed by the US and Soviets. I know that thorium reactors are supposedly inherently safer than the current uranium fueled designs. And the proposed solution to disposing of long lived fuel waste is recycling them into the fuel of fast neutron reactors to burn them up.
    I guess if you know how to play with changing elements by neutron bombardment you can turn long-lived into short-lived. I don[t remember nearly as much of that part of my physics courses as I'd like... and I don't feel like researching it at the moment, either.

    I do remember that thorium isn't a good fuel by itself; it needs a heavy neutron source to kick-start the process, which has several different pathways that all keep giving off heat as they turn from one thing to another. The beauty of it is that it does go through all those pathways, whereas uranium IIRC is pretty straightforward; it follows one path and that's that, which means you have to pull the rods and re-process them more often. Oh! Memory strikes: the thorium cycle can be used in a way that doesn't utilize rods... somehow; that makes it more versatile.

    Anyway......

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Wind power is more likely to kill bats than birds.

    Coal doesn't need to be banned, the just need to filter all the particulate out of the smokestack, and then capture and sequester the CO2
    In the turbine coal-dust fed version the effluent is supposed to be pretty particulate-free, as I recall, so long as it's low-sulphur coal (the good stuff). That would, I presume, make it easier (cheaper) to scrub.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    James Taylor, the article’s author, is a “senior fellow for environment policy” at the Heartland Institute.

    They're not the only ones complaining -- the Osage Indians are up in arms:

    http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwor...-object-152753

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I guess if you know how to play with changing elements by neutron bombardment you can turn long-lived into short-lived. I don[t remember nearly as much of that part of my physics courses as I'd like... and I don't feel like researching it at the moment, either.

    I do remember that thorium isn't a good fuel by itself; it needs a heavy neutron source to kick-start the process, which has several different pathways that all keep giving off heat as they turn from one thing to another. The beauty of it is that it does go through all those pathways, whereas uranium IIRC is pretty straightforward; it follows one path and that's that, which means you have to pull the rods and re-process them more often. Oh! Memory strikes: the thorium cycle can be used in a way that doesn't utilize rods... somehow; that makes it more versatile.

    Anyway......
    I recall the fact that you needed a neutron source to start and sustain the reaction was part of why the advocates say its safer, removing the source also makes it much easier to shut down. Thus thorium fueled reactors are far easier to make passive safe designs.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    President Obama Will Sacrifice Bald Eagles To Fight Global Warming

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestay...lobal-warming/
    Since when do the right wing "stool pigeons" give a darn about wildlife when it comes to corporate greed?
    Which do you think will take out more birds, loss of habitat from strip mining and pollution caused by continuous human related accidents (i.e. Deep-water horizon or The Exxon Valdez) or dealing with a evolving new technology that will solve or curtail the problem?

    Certainly there is a problem with bird deaths from wind mills/turbines but its nothing near what destruction of habitat, urban sprawl, agriculture, vehicles, and pet/feral cats cause. Not to mention the number one man related cause the window. Highrise, Retail, warehouse, home, windows are #1.
    Face it you keep stripping mountains down mining or farming and building wal-marts and cookie cutter subdivisions and the birds are history anyway without habitat there can be no birds or fly ways for migration.
    This situation goes for bats as well.

    This is just another bunch of crap that big business let go on its minions and they know it works because the pin heads can't reason or think logically. Yet they don't mention anything about what they do when they clear cut and mill down a 5,000 acre mountain to mine coal making it look like the surface of MARS.

    This video though a bit dated still covers the bird death problem starting at 4:55

    Last edited by vulgar_newcomer; December 17th, 2013 at 11:45 AM. Reason: bird deaths

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    I sure hope these people continue their momentum. As one having COPD and living a mile from all the refineries here I could sure use some help in that area. But also there are a lot more evils that could be controlled.
    Yes I know your Citgo plant and the rest pretty well. Could be worse you could be in Texas City or Pasadena (Stink~a~dena)!

  23. #23

    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by vulgar_newcomer View Post
    Since when do the right wing "stool pigeons" give a darn about wildlife when it comes to corporate greed?
    Which do you think will take out more birds, loss of habitat from strip mining and pollution caused by continuous human related accidents (i.e. Deep-water horizon or The Exxon Valdez) or dealing with a evolving new technology that will solve or curtail the problem?

    Certainly there is a problem with bird deaths from wind mills/turbines but its nothing near what destruction of habitat, urban sprawl, agriculture, vehicles, and pet/feral cats cause. Not to mention the number one man related cause the window. Highrise, Retail, warehouse, home, windows are #1.
    Face it you keep stripping mountains down mining or farming and building wal-marts and cookie cutter subdivisions and the birds are history anyway without habitat there can be no birds or fly ways for migration.
    This situation goes for bats as well.

    This is just another bunch of crap that big business let go on its minions and they know it works because the pin heads can't reason or think logically. Yet they don't mention anything about what they do when they clear cut and mill down a 5,000 acre mountain to mine coal making it look like the surface of MARS.

    This video though a bit dated still covers the bird death problem starting at 4:55

    Gee .. you're always so pleasant.

    Killing bald eagles is all about agenda. I'd think most conservatives would be very upset about killing bald eagles. Wind energy has some problems ... maybe build a screen around the moving blades or redesign the blades so they don't kill wildlife.

    However, I also think that liberals would be more upset about killing endangered cockroaches than bald eagles.
    "That’s the good thing about being president. I can do whatever I want.” Barack Obama, 2-10-14

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by vulgar_newcomer View Post
    Yes I know your Citgo plant and the rest pretty well. Could be worse you could be in Texas City or Pasadena (Stink~a~dena)!
    I lived in Houston for 22 years. I know all about Texas City and Pasadena. My aunt lived in La Marque the town next to Texas City. My uncle worked near the shipyard when that ship blew up. Family stories abound.

    Also, yesterday or the day before, a company working on oil storage tanks, the roof collapsed and 2 were killed. Just wonderful living 1 mile from the refineries.
    Last edited by White Eagle; December 17th, 2013 at 02:46 PM.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Gee .. you're always so pleasant.

    Killing bald eagles is all about agenda. I'd think most conservatives would be very upset about killing bald eagles. Wind energy has some problems ... maybe build a screen around the moving blades or redesign the blades so they don't kill wildlife.

    However, I also think that liberals would be more upset about killing endangered cockroaches than bald eagles.
    Bald Eagles are being killed by lead poisoning. Pick your disaster.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  26. #26

    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    Bald Eagles are being killed by lead poisoning. Pick your disaster.
    What deferments did Obama give to the lead industry for killing bald eagles?
    "That’s the good thing about being president. I can do whatever I want.” Barack Obama, 2-10-14

  27. #27

    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Is there any energy that is OK? Wind kills the birds.
    This is a serious question. Liberals demonize all sources of energy, even as they use as much as the rest of us and advocate unnecessary population growth.

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I recall the fact that you needed a neutron source to start and sustain the reaction was part of why the advocates say its safer, removing the source also makes it much easier to shut down. Thus thorium fueled reactors are far easier to make passive safe designs.
    Ah, yes! And if the fuel is in liquid state, they can just drain it into shielded tanks.

    I like it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    The Obama Administration said it was even OK for the wind turbines to kill bald eagles.
    According to the American Wind Energy Association, “fewer than six bald eagles have ever been killed by a wind turbine.”

    A Struggle to Balance Wind Energy With Wildlife (NYT; December 16, 2013)

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    The amusing part is that wind turbines were shoved down our throats by state politicians in MA and now most Cape residents are complaining about said wind turbines.

    Judge orders Massachusetts town to limit wind turbine use

    Mind you, there is a nuclear power plant in Plymouth which about 30mi from the Cape.
    Last edited by maxpowr9; December 17th, 2013 at 06:32 PM.

  31. #31

    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    According to the American Wind Energy Association, “fewer than six bald eagles have ever been killed by a wind turbine.”

    A Struggle to Balance Wind Energy With Wildlife (NYT; December 16, 2013)
    What would expect the American Wind Energy Association to say. Why did Obama give them the 30 year exemption?

    All new technology comes with a price that's unexpected and unwelcome.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    The amusing part is that wind turbines were shoved down our throats by state politicians in MA and now most Cape residents are complaining about said wind turbines.

    Judge orders Massachusetts town to limit wind turbine use

    Mind you, there is a nuclear power plant in Plymouth which about 30mi from the Cape.
    Did the Kennedy's succeed in keeping the wind farm away from their property?
    "That’s the good thing about being president. I can do whatever I want.” Barack Obama, 2-10-14

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Why did Obama give them the 30 year exemption?
    a) The changes in permitting originate with the Department of Interior.

    b) The 30-year permits are NOT an exemption.


    It is my impression that the primary reason for offering extended (Programmatic) permits is the substantial capital costs in developing wind power generation farms and the lifecycle of the equipment involved.

    Eagle Permits; Changes in the Regulations Governing Eagle Permitting

    AGENCY: Fish and Wildlife Service, Interior.

    ACTION: Proposed rule. (April 2012)

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    In all of this I have yet to read about methods being used to "persuade" eagles to stay away.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    In all of this I have yet to read about methods being used to "persuade" eagles to stay away.
    Valid point. Did you follow the sub-links provided in the American Wind Energy Association link I shared above?


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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Valid point. Did you follow the sub-links provided in the American Wind Energy Association link I shared above?

    Yeah. I liked the idea of moving road kill to places where eagles feasting on it are less likely to encounter risks. But most of the item seems to be bureaucratic long-speak saying "We really don't know how to do this yet".

    If they can't reduce deaths, they should be required to balance that by enhancing eagle habitat somewhere else -- like even the Urban Raptor Project.*




    * I love that project, especially after reading that in one city where National Parks rangers relocated some nuisance eagles, the population of stray and feral cats plummeted. Of course that meant the population of birds the cats preyed on climbed, but eagles like fat pigeons (often called "rats with wings" by city dwellers).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    ^Still doesn't address the "human aspect" like the link I posted.

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    ^Still doesn't address the "human aspect" like the link I posted.
    Are you worried about eagles bothering humans????

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Are you worried about eagles bothering humans????
    Meant the medical impact on humans with wind turbines.

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    Re: New report: Activists worldwide say 'No' to coal

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Meant the medical impact on humans with wind turbines.
    I wasn't even trying to address that.

    It was a concern raised here when an outfit proposed a half dozen wind generators on the Port property. Two of the towers would have been close to a little office park, and another would have been by the jail. A judge said they have to show convincing mitigation plans or they can't put those three up. But three wasn't enough for the project to go forward.

    Now they want to put the six out on the sand spit where I'm doing conservation work, but that's a county park, and the public outcry at even the suggestion was mind-boggling. The latest idea is to out them out to sea on a shelf of rock; people complain they'll be an eyesore, but the site is far enough out that the bases sticking out of the water would be over the horizon -- and the company presented a color proposal that would make the blades nearly invisible except at sunset.
    So, of course, now people want a promise that the towers will never block the sunset.... (people are STUPID!!!).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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