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  1. #51
    Sex God chuck10x's Avatar
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    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by naglfarii View Post
    do you not understand that people who lost their insurance plans did so because those insurance plans didn't conform to regulations that prevent abuse by the insurers? basically you were paying for garbage
    The crappy "catastrophic plans" are still being offered with add-ons.
    The old plans did not have the mandated maternity, birth control and drug abuse programs.
    You still have the high deductibles and out of pocket expenses.

  2. #52
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Actually the Pinocchio award is used by the Washington Post who also included that statement in their lie of the year list.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  3. #53
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    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    No, a "half-truth" is NOT a "falsehood or deception."

    "Half-truths" occur because people make statements that are, in fact, essentially true, but do not necessarily cover every conceivable aspect of the situation in question.




    Your statement "was never going to be entirely true" acknowledges that the claim is, in fact, essentially true.

    The fact remains, a statement which is essentially true is being lauded as the "lie of the year."

    So I ask again, is it so much to ask that the "Lie of the Year" be an actual lie?
    The best deceptions are wrapped in truth so that the listener is fooled into accepting the deception at face value. When the deception is exposed the deceiver then tries to deflect by pointing to the 'technical' truth of the statement while avoiding the actual point. This has been a common practice of politicians for centuries, so no I don't think that position is 'half true' makes it any less a deception or any less a candidate for lie of the year. The White House tried to do EXACTLY that in the back pedaling statements made this year which was rated "Pants on Fire" so it may have started out a half truth but it was a lie in the end. Good try at deflecting from the point though.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  4. #54

    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Actually the Pinocchio award is used by the Washington Post who also included that statement in their lie of the year list.
    Obama got the maximum of Pinocchio's for his BIG LIE too. Think of the cartoon as a two-for-one.

  5. #55
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    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Of course in a tip to T-Rexx the Republican big lie about the congress being exempt from the law was a much more blatant and outright lie. Both lies were done to promote the agenda, and had significant political impact on the public views and the elections. The Republican lie was bigger and more self serving but had a smaller impact on the political discourse. The Obama lie had the biggest impact but was less blatant. IMHO, the two are fairly tied. If you have to put one in front of the other, I'd lean towards Obama simply because it had a bigger impact, passing the law and the follow up elections turned on it I think. But its still close.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  6. #56
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    The best deceptions are wrapped in truth so that the listener is fooled into accepting the deception at face value. When the deception is exposed the deceiver then tries to deflect by pointing to the 'technical' truth of the statement while avoiding the actual point. This has been a common practice of politicians for centuries, so no I don't think that position is 'half true' makes it any less a deception or any less a candidate for lie of the year.
    In other words, you're fine with the "Lie of the Year" being a mostly true statement.

    You note that its truth does not make it "any less a deception or any less a candidate for lie of the year."


    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    The White House tried to do EXACTLY that in the back pedaling statements made this year which was rated "Pants on Fire"
    The "Lie of the Year" was not "awarded" for any "back pedaling." It is Obama's original and essentially true statement which garnered the "award."


    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    so it may have started out a half truth but it was a lie in the end.
    Statements do not "start out a half truth" and then somehow become a lie.

    Obama's statement that people who have health insurance may keep their health insurance is as true today as it was on the multiple occasions when the president pointed out this truth.

    The fact that some people have such spectacularly bad insurance that it cannot meet a minimum definition of insurance does not change this basic truth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Good try at deflecting from the point though.
    The point remains precisely where it has always been - that the "Lie of the Year" is actually a true statement. The deflection is yours, entirely. You attempt to morph time and space to make this true statement sound like a lie. You claim the fact that it is true does not detract from its consideration as a lie. You claim that it used to be true, and then somehow "became" a lie. Your machinations are painful to watch.

    The "Lie of the Year" is actually a truth. Which makes the "Lie of the Year" a stupid, senseless, political joke.

  7. #57
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    In other words, you're fine with the "Lie of the Year" being a mostly true statement.

    You note that its truth does not make it "any less a deception or any less a candidate for lie of the year."




    The "Lie of the Year" was not "awarded" for any "back pedaling." It is Obama's original and essentially true statement which garnered the "award."




    Statements do not "start out a half truth" and then somehow become a lie.

    Obama's statement that people who have health insurance may keep their health insurance is as true today as it was on the multiple occasions when the president pointed out this truth.

    The fact that some people have such spectacularly bad insurance that it cannot meet a minimum definition of insurance does not change this basic truth.




    The point remains precisely where it has always been - that the "Lie of the Year" is actually a true statement. The deflection is yours, entirely. You attempt to morph time and space to make this true statement sound like a lie. You claim the fact that it is true does not detract from its consideration as a lie. You claim that it used to be true, and then somehow "became" a lie. Your machinations are painful to watch.

    The "Lie of the Year" is actually a truth. Which makes the "Lie of the Year" a stupid, senseless, political joke.
    No the supposedly true statement is a deception (if you can't understand the difference and are stuck in the black and white then yes its a lie) that the president repeatedly depicted as a truth that applied to everyone when in actuality it only applied to a limited group that his own administration worked to make even more limited. The president knew this yet he continued to misstate the truth. The original statement was "If you like your heath care you can keep it PERIOD", it was not If you like your health care and it is not "such spectacularly bad insurance that it cannot meet a minimum definition of insurance" then you can keep it. The fact checkers called that attempt to change it a pants on fire lie when the White House used it, you trying to do the same does not make it any less a deception. Obama's reasons for doing it are clearly deceptive, intending to head off one of the chief memes that killed Clinton's health care efforts. Politifact, the Washington Post, Fact Check and judging from the polls, most of the American people understand this but you can deceive yourself if you wish about it. You need to face the fact that Obama is a politician and he engages in all the same dirty tricks that are common of the breed and move on. Hell even he is admitting it, the White House's tone this week is, yes it wasn't true but our intentions were good.
    Last edited by Stardreamer; December 20th, 2013 at 10:36 PM.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  8. #58

    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    In other words, you're fine with the "Lie of the Year" being a mostly true statement.

    You note that its truth does not make it "any less a deception or any less a candidate for lie of the year."




    The "Lie of the Year" was not "awarded" for any "back pedaling." It is Obama's original and essentially true statement which garnered the "award."




    Statements do not "start out a half truth" and then somehow become a lie.

    Obama's statement that people who have health insurance may keep their health insurance is as true today as it was on the multiple occasions when the president pointed out this truth.

    The fact that some people have such spectacularly bad insurance that it cannot meet a minimum definition of insurance does not change this basic truth.




    The point remains precisely where it has always been - that the "Lie of the Year" is actually a true statement. The deflection is yours, entirely. You attempt to morph time and space to make this true statement sound like a lie. You claim the fact that it is true does not detract from its consideration as a lie. You claim that it used to be true, and then somehow "became" a lie. Your machinations are painful to watch.

    The "Lie of the Year" is actually a truth. Which makes the "Lie of the Year" a stupid, senseless, political joke.
    Amazing that you still believe Obama didn't tell a lie. Honestly, I think you'd believe the man if he told you the sky was green instead of blue.

  9. #59
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Amazing that you still believe Obama didn't tell a lie. Honestly, I think you'd believe the man if he told you the sky was green instead of blue.
    It's not just me.

    Politifact themselves claim Obama's statement to be mostly true.

  10. #60
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    The original statement was "If you like your heath care you can keep it PERIOD"
    Not true.

    You added the "PERIOD" part to try to make a true statement appear untrue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    it was not If you like your health care and it is not "such spectacularly bad insurance that it cannot meet a minimum definition of insurance" then you can keep it.
    Of course the president did not say that people might keep their fraudulent health "insurance" plans. He should not have to. It goes without saying that fraud against citizens will not be sanctioned by the federal government. PERIOD.

  11. #61
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Not true.

    You added the "PERIOD" part to try to make a true statement appear untrue.




    Of course the president did not say that people might keep their fraudulent health "insurance" plans. He should not have to. It goes without saying that fraud against citizens will not be sanctioned by the federal government. PERIOD.
    Actually I didn't add the period, President Obama did:
    June 15, 2009: "I know that there are millions of Americans who are content with their health care coverage — they like their plan and, most importantly, they value their relationship with their doctor. They trust you. And that means that no matter how we reform health care, we will keep this promise to the American people: If you like your doctor, you will be able to keep your doctor, period. If you like your health care plan, you'll be able to keep your health care plan, period. No one will take it away, no matter what."

    July 16, 2009: "if you've got health insurance, you like your doctor, you like your plan — you can keep your doctor, you can keep your plan. Nobody is talking about taking that away from you."

    July 18, 2009: "Michelle and I don’t want anyone telling us who our family’s doctor should be – and no one should decide that for you either. Under our proposals, if you like your doctor, you keep your doctor. If you like your current insurance, you keep that insurance. Period, end of story."

    "For those Americans who already have health insurance, the only changes you will see under the law are new benefits, better protections from insurance company abuses, and more value for every dollar you spend on health care. If you like your plan you can keep it and you don’t have to change a thing due to the health care law."

    "For those Americans who already have health insurance, the only changes you will see under the law are new benefits, better protections from insurance company abuses, and more value for every dollar you spend on health care. If you like your plan you can keep it and you don’t have to change a thing due to the health care law."

    April 1, 2010: The critics will "see that if Americans like their doctor, they will keep their doctor. And if you like your insurance plan, you will keep it. No one will be able to take that away from you. It hasn’t happened yet. It won’t happen in the future."

    May 18, 2010: "A key point to remember is that while the Act makes many changes to the individual market, it specifically allows those who want to keep their current insurance to do so. Most of the Act’s protections apply only to new policies, allowing people to stick with their current plan if they prefer."

    Sept. 26, 2013: "Now, let’s start with the fact that even before the Affordable Care Act fully takes effect, about 85 percent of Americans already have health insurance — either through their job, or through Medicare, or through the individual market. So if you’re one of these folks, it’s reasonable that you might worry whether health care reform is going to create changes that are a problem for you — especially when you’re bombarded with all sorts of fear-mongering. So the first thing you need to know is this: If you already have health care, you don’t have to do anything."
    It was because he put the period there that I did, and why it graduated from half truth to full lie.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  12. #62

    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Not true.

    You added the "PERIOD" part to try to make a true statement appear untrue.




    Of course the president did not say that people might keep their fraudulent health "insurance" plans. He should not have to. It goes without saying that fraud against citizens will not be sanctioned by the federal government. PERIOD.
    Obama added the 'period' ... he lied, continued to lie, and keep lying about this.


    Right now Obamacare is a HUGE MESS -- changing daily, confusing daily -- I doubt if there is anyone who really knows the rules. The site is not secure. If Obama really cared he'd put an end to Obamacare until things were safe.
    Last edited by Jack Springer; December 21st, 2013 at 08:39 AM.

  13. #63
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    It's not just me.

    Politifact themselves claim Obama's statement to be mostly true.
    The statement that actually won the award is: "What we said was, you can keep it if it hasn’t changed since the law passed." Which was rated Pants on Fire.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  14. #64

    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    So much fake outrage.

    Where was this outrage when Bush lied us into a war where hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and thousands of American citizens died?

  15. #65
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    If the president were to say "The sky is blue" you guys would jump up and down screaming.

    "It may be red or yellow or purple at sunrise or sunset!" you would insist. The president knew that when he said "the sky is blue" so that was a lie! He was belng deceptive and disingenuous in claiming celestial ceruleanness! And what about at night? The sky is not blue at night!!!!!

    Except the sky is blue. And Obamacare does let you keep your existing insurance.

    Sorry, I don't live in your imaginary Republican world.

  16. #66
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    So I have decided to put T-Rexx's assertion to the test. He said
    "No, a "half-truth" is NOT a "falsehood or deception."

    "Half-truths" occur because people make statements that are, in fact, essentially true, but do not necessarily cover every conceivable aspect of the situation in question.
    So according the him the following statements are not falsehoods or deceptions and cannot be called a lie:
    "Obamacare could force thousands of volunteer fire stations to cut service or close entirely!"

    "Republicans have proposed dozens of (health care) solutions designed to help control costs and improve quality."

    Mark Pryor "cut Medicare to pay for Obamacare."

    "This year, the federal government will have more revenue than any year in the history of our country."

    "...Armed citizens are less likely harmed by attackers. Effectiveness of gun control laws is mixed. Gun buybacks don't work."

    In the Wisconsin health insurance exchange, "the Society of Actuaries points out that there'll be, according to them, an 82 percent increase in individual premiums over the next couple years under Obamacare."

    The federal deficit is "growing."

    health insurance premiums will rise under Obamacare.

    "We have the fewest people employed in this country since 1979."

    "Our debt is already bigger than our economy."

    Military spending cuts, known as the sequester, were President Barack Obama’s idea.

    "As a result of National Rifle Association and other private-sector (safety-education) programs, fatal firearms accidents are at the lowest level in 100 years."

    "Washington, D.C., had some of the strictest gun laws in the country. And when they passed them, violence skyrocketed."

    "Women in Barack Obama's White House are earning less than men."

    Says President Obama waited two weeks to call the attack in Libya "terror."

    The Obama administration "called Bashar Assad a reformer when he was turning his Russian-provided guns on his own people."
    Should I go on? Are all these statements 'essentially true'
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  17. #67
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    If the president were to say "The sky is blue" you guys would jump up and down screaming.

    "It may be red or yellow or purple at sunrise or sunset!" you would insist. The president knew that when he said "the sky is blue" so that was a lie! He was belng deceptive and disingenuous in claiming celestial ceruleanness! And what about at night? The sky is not blue at night!!!!!

    Except the sky is blue. And Obamacare does let you keep your existing insurance.

    Sorry, I don't live in your imaginary Republican world.
    I can't speak for the others, I don't hold any special animosity for President Obama and I'm not a Republican. I would agree that the sky is blue but if someone is saying it is blue period, saying so repeatedly, doing so for obvious political reasons even when its pointed out to him that it changes colors then yes I would call that deceptive or extremely naive.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  18. #68
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    So much fake outrage.

    Where was this outrage when Bush lied us into a war where hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and thousands of American citizens died?
    This is an amazing thing.

    Bush can lie that Saddam Hussein participated in 9/11. That Saddam Hussein trained Al-Qaeda. That Iraq had WMDs. That Iraq was buying "yellow cake" uranium (even the Italian press recognized those documents as forgeries!). That waterboarding is not torture. That gay marriage will make heterosexual marriage untenable.

    Bush's lies cost America (literally!) trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives.

    Obama's true statements about Obamacare will save lives and billions of dollars.

    Guess where Republicans direct their outrage.

  19. #69
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    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    So much fake outrage.

    Where was this outrage when Bush lied us into a war where hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and thousands of American citizens died?
    Where you and T-Rexx there defending all the half-truth's the Bush Administration told? Like that Iraq likely sought to buy uranium from Niger, that was a half truth. Do you defend it?
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  20. #70

    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    This is an amazing thing.

    Bush can lie that Saddam Hussein participated in 9/11. That Saddam Hussein trained Al-Qaeda. That Iraq had WMDs. That Iraq was buying "yellow cake" uranium (even the Italian press recognized those documents as forgeries!). That waterboarding is not torture. That gay marriage will make heterosexual marriage untenable.

    Bush's lies cost America (literally!) trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives.

    Obama's true statements about Obamacare will save lives and billions of dollars.

    Guess where Republicans direct their outrage.
    I don't care what anyone else says, 98% of their hatred of President Barack Obama is because he's not lily white. They can't deal with a black man as leader of the free world.

    And their failure to recognize the crimes of the Bush administration is they would have to admit they were wrong, and that's something conservatives simply can't do.

  21. #71

    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    If the president were to say "The sky is blue" you guys would jump up and down screaming.

    "It may be red or yellow or purple at sunrise or sunset!" you would insist. The president knew that when he said "the sky is blue" so that was a lie! He was belng deceptive and disingenuous in claiming celestial ceruleanness! And what about at night? The sky is not blue at night!!!!!

    Except the sky is blue. And Obamacare does let you keep your existing insurance.

    Sorry, I don't live in your imaginary Republican world.
    I have to admit .. rare do you find anyone who will blindly follow and believe a politician like you.

    It's like a cult.

  22. #72

    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    I don't care what anyone else says, 98% of their hatred of President Barack Obama is because he's not lily white. They can't deal with a black man as leader of the free world.

    And their failure to recognize the crimes of the Bush administration is they would have to admit they were wrong, and that's something conservatives simply can't do.
    ,,, and Bob still has problems accepting that a black man can be POTUS. Black men don't need your help Bob -- they are men without your limousine liberal 'help'.

  23. #73

    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    ,,, and Bob still has problems accepting that a black man can be POTUS. Black men don't need your help Bob -- they are men without your limousine liberal 'help'.
    ,,, and Springer still has problems accepting that a black man is POTUS.

    And a successful one at that.

  24. #74
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Hmmm so I guess the real definition of a half truth is its a lie if told by the president you don't like and the Gods honest truth if said by the one you do like.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  25. #75
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    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Hmmm so I guess the real definition of a half truth is its a lie if told by the president you don't like and the Gods honest truth if said by the one you do like.
    Fair summation.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  26. #76

    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    ,,, and Springer still has problems accepting that a black man is POTUS.

    And a successful one at that.
    I totally accept Obama as a fellow human being and a man -- equal with me. However, I don't think you do. I think you believe he needs help.

  27. #77

    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I totally accept Obama as a fellow human being and a man -- equal with me. However, I don't think you do. I think you believe he needs help.

    OMFG!



  28. #78

    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    OMFG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I totally accept Obama as a fellow human being and a man -- equal with me. However, I don't think you do. I think you believe he needs help.
    Now that I stopped laughing I see you still haven't accepted him as the President of the United States.

  29. #79
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: It's that time again...Politifact's Lie of the Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I have to admit .. rare do you find anyone who will blindly follow and believe a politician like you.

    It's like a cult.
    Cults are groups of people who refuse to acknowledge the truth.

    Rather like you, actually.

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