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  1. #51

    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    I do recall from Suetonius, that Nero had a male lover castrated to be more feminine--not a great argument for gay marriage as we intend it.

  2. #52
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    In fact, even if you go on Wikipedia and look for "homosexuality in Ancient Rome", there's a section about gay marriage. It was by no means the norm, but was done on occasion, and openly.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  3. #53
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I do recall from Suetonius, that Nero had a male lover castrated to be more feminine--not a great argument for gay marriage as we intend it.
    He married Sporus, a man. That's the point, and Nero was not the only one, not the first, and not the last. The fact that more are not recorded is not due to scarcity of the practice of same sex marriage in world cultures, but the sparse written records they left behind detailing the lives of ordinary people. However, it was apparently so common in the 4th century that Constantius considered it worthwhile enough to explicitly ban outright in his 342 code of law, not unlike the DOMA laws of today.
    Last edited by Alnitak; November 24th, 2013 at 06:54 PM.

  4. #54

    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    By relying upon rare and strongly disapproved exceptions, you do not make a case for a " basic human right".
    Remember, marriage is not really the issue. Historically it was person to person. State intervention did not become general in the US until a century or so ago with marriage licenses. So the question is whether state intervention in marriage is a basic human right?
    If gays want to marry, in church, with tuxedos, reception with a big cake, and honeymoon, it is not illegal in any state. But if you want the state to get involved, some states do not chose to do so. How is state involvement a "basic right"?

  5. #55
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    By relying upon rare and strongly disapproved exceptions, you do not make a case for a " basic human right".
    Remember, marriage is not really the issue. Historically it was person to person. State intervention did not become general in the US until a century or so ago with marriage licenses. So the question is whether state intervention in marriage is a basic human right?
    If gays want to marry, in church, with tuxedos, reception with a big cake, and honeymoon, it is not illegal in any state. But if you want the state to get involved, some states do not chose to do so. How is state involvement a "basic right"?
    SCOTUS has affirmed 14 separate times since 1888 that marriage is a fundamental right. I'd say that's pretty damning to your case.

    And no, I am not convinced that same sex marriage was rare throughout history.

  6. #56
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    "Dark skinned" are your words not mine, but they are an admission that the policies have a racial effect. If the effect was to diminish no-white percentages, you would howl "racist racist". But because the effect is to the contrary, you claim that objection to the racist policies is racist. Your own racist bigotry is on display. Anti -white policies are every bit as racist as anti- colored. But you think there is good racism and bad racism.
    Pants on fire.... or delusional?

    Please specify, and document, any "racist policies" other than those of the GOP.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  7. #57

    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    SCOTUS has affirmed 14 separate times since 1888 that marriage is a fundamental right. I'd say that's pretty damning to your case.

    And no, I am not convinced that same sex marriage was rare throughout history.
    Has many of the 14 involved marriages without state involvement, I.e. before licensing? How many involved same sex?

  8. #58
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    As Clinton said famously, in a few years whites will be a minority and it will be a "good thing."
    I think perhaps you are “quoting” what somebody else said about something President Clinton said. I would appreciate if you will please provide an exact quote of the statement to which you are referring. As something that was “famously said,” it shouldn’t be too challenging for you to produce that quote.

  9. #59
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Has many of the 14 involved marriages without state involvement, I.e. before licensing? How many involved same sex?
    Both are fundamental rights, and you of all people should know, assuming you really are an attorney, when a court finds something inhumane or unconstitutional it has always ceteris parabis been so. Bans on same sex marriage have been unconstitutional since 1868 and immoral since the dawn of time where and when they occurred, just like interracial marriage bans. Interracial marriage was not a right all of the sudden just because SCOTUS said so in 1967.
    Last edited by Alnitak; November 24th, 2013 at 08:12 PM.

  10. #60
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Has many of the 14 involved marriages without state involvement, I.e. before licensing? How many involved same sex?
    That is irrelevant. If marriage is a fundamental right, then we all have that right. Gay and straight alike. Any two consenting adults.

    I am curious - why are you arguing against gay marriage? Aren't you gay?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  11. #61
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I favor same sex marriage but I do not consider it important compared with the other problems confronting our country. How can it be a basic human right when it was only thought of a decade or so ago.
    Here is a couple that thought of it in 1974, only 6 years after homosexuality was decriminalised in Canada, which is about enough time for a serious couple to come of age, meet, get engaged and determine to marry.

    http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/art...153492035.html
    http://www.cbc.ca/archives/categorie...e-marries.html

    What is going through your head if you think couples only took each other seriously for the last decade?
    Only the truly ignorant could make the sort of claim Benvolio did. Same-sex marriage is centuries old at the least, in Hawaiian and other Pacific cultures, and in a number of native American tribes. Also, the members of the Sacred Band of Thebes had a status considered equivalent to marriage ("a sacred bond", according to one contemporary), so the concept was not unknown in the classical world either.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; November 24th, 2013 at 08:21 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  12. #62
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Actually, since marriage was only a religious and nota legal ceremony for most of human history, and roman emperors could do as they please, they did get married to male lovers, and in Nero's or Caligula's case - also animals if memory serves. Either way, the church also performed gay marriages (not called that of course, since the current concept of homosexuality exists since the 19th century) prior to the Middle Ages. This information is easy to find btw.
    Caligula at least tried to appoint his favorite horse to the Senate, and did make it a priest, but there's no record of him or any other emperor marrying one. OTOH, there were accusations that Caligula brought one of his horses to the palace as a participant during the time he ran it as a brothel.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  13. #63
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Caligula at least tried to appoint his favorite horse to the Senate, and did make it a priest, but there's no record of him or any other emperor marrying one. OTOH, there were accusations that Caligula brought one of his horses to the palace as a participant during the time he ran it as a brothel.
    Caligula also delighted in tossing coins of the roof of the tabularium and watching the people scatter for them below. He was a total basket case.

  14. #64
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I ask you to demonstrate that any emperor "married" another man. Sex, yes. Marriage, no.
    Sutonius reported that the emperor Nero married a man, perhaps more than one.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    Only the truly ignorant could make the sort of claim Benvolio did. Same-sex marriage is centuries old at the least, in Hawaiian and other Pacific cultures, and in a number of native American tribes. Also, the members of the Sacred Band of Thebes had a status considered equivalent to marriage ("a sacred bond", according to one contemporary), so the concept was not unknown in the classical world either.
    But in the mins of someone who doesn't consider anyone to be on the same level as white Americans, those cultures don't matter.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    Sutonius reported that the emperor Nero married a man, perhaps more than one.
    Wikipedia says two same sex marriages are documented, and a third is rumored. In one of the documented ones, and in the rumored one, Nero was "the bride".
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  17. #67
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Caligula also delighted in tossing coins of the roof of the tabularium and watching the people scatter for them below. He was a total basket case.
    I've watched the mini-series on Caligula three times, and every time it wasn't long before I was wishing he'd been looney enough to think he could fly, and so leapt off some tall edifice.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  18. #68
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    But in the mins of someone who doesn't consider anyone to be on the same level as white Americans, those cultures don't matter.
    In which case the Bible shouldn't be acceptable as any kind of authority, since none of it -- with the possible exception of Luke, Acts, and Hebrews -- was written by white people.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  19. #69
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    I find it hilarious that other than JQ's lane attempt at deflection, no conservative has offered any explanation as to why they consider gay rights - presumably their own - to be secondary to other things that - again supposedly - Sony concern them nearly as directly as their acceptance in society.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Wikipedia says two same sex marriages are documented, and a third is rumored. In one of the documented ones, and in the rumored one, Nero was "the bride".
    Gack -- I'd forgotten that last! I saw a TV piece once where they showed a re-enactment; they had Nero cross-dressing for the ceremony.

    But I wonder how the priests determined he wasn't a virgin....

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  21. #71
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I find it hilarious that other than JQ's lane attempt at deflection, no conservative has offered any explanation as to why they consider gay rights - presumably their own - to be secondary to other things that - again supposedly - Sony concern them nearly as directly as their acceptance in society.
    The only possible issue a conservative could latch onto that could be more important than human rights would be the debt, which is arguably a threat to the security of the Republic. Ironically, it's those who claim to be conservatives who caused that problem and who have consistently opposed major moves to do something about it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  22. #72

    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The only possible issue a conservative could latch onto that could be more important than human rights would be the debt, which is arguably a threat to the security of the Republic. Ironically, it's those who claim to be conservatives who caused that problem and who have consistently opposed major moves to do something about it.
    If you were a libertarian, you would agree that high taxes is a denial of liberty. We will never be able to tax as fast or as much as the liberals can spend.

  23. #73
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    We will never be able to tax as fast or as much as the liberals can spend.
    Europe for $1000 please.

  24. #74

    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    I think perhaps you are “quoting” what somebody else said about something President Clinton said. I would appreciate if you will please provide an exact quote of the statement to which you are referring. As something that was “famously said,” it shouldn’t be too challenging for you to produce that quote.
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2271745/posts

  25. #75
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    If you were a libertarian, you would agree that high taxes is a denial of liberty. We will never be able to tax as fast or as much as the liberals can spend.
    No, you're confusing libertarian with propertarian. Vast wealth inequality is an impediment to liberty.

    And historically, it's the Republicans who are the most irresponsible spenders -- at least since the GOP stopped being a conservative party.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  26. #76
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    Besides, the modern Republican Party doesn't even hold conservative values. Protecting the environment was a conservative value! Teddy Roosevelt championed our national parks and conservation. Everyone paying into healthcare is a conservative value! Why should the healthy not contribute into a system until they get sick to sap from it? Supporting immigration for a minority population that believes in strong, religiously large families (aka Hispanics) is a conservative investment! Staying out of the problems of the world and not going to war with everyone is a conservative value! These are all policies the Republican Party is against.
    Same thing I've been saying for years!!! Not to mention that assuring that the population is well-educated and therefore competitive with the rest of the "powers" in the world, is a conservative value.

    To NOT be conservative is the most effective way to hate, and to assure the complete destruction of, the American way of life.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    the Republican Party is most emphatically NOT an American conservative party. In sharp contrast to its own rhetoric, it is the party of big government, massive deficit spending, intrusive government intervention into the lives of Americans, and overwhelming religious fundamentalism.

    The Republican Party...is an American Taliban.

    The conservative party of record in America is the Democratic Party. America has no liberal representation in its party politics. It lies curiously and dramatically to the right of the rest of the world.
    You guys are spot-on. The United States was a strongly conservative country for many years, probably until about 1981 - when Reagan got in and started dismantling all of the most important institutions and practices which **CONSERVED** the status of "Americans"/the USA in the world. This country has been in free fall since, and is now plagued by some of the worst results in education, health outcomes, overall expectations, upward mobility, etc. in the "first" World. The last I checked, life expectancy in the United States is FALLING - one of the few countries in the world (even including "undeveloped" countries) where this is happening.

    In JustBelieve's quoted post, I highlighted the word "conservation" intentionally. CONSERVATION and CONSERVATIVE come from the very same word roots.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

    VOTING: Just remember: "Be careful of what you DON'T wish for. You might just get it." GET OUT AND VOTE for what you DO wish for.

    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony

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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    If you were a libertarian, you would agree that high taxes is a denial of liberty. We will never be able to tax as fast or as much as the liberals can spend.
    I am sorry, how much did YOUR guy spend during his 8 years again?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  28. #78

    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    No, you're confusing libertarian with propertarian. Vast wealth inequality is an impediment to liberty.

    And historically, it's the Republicans who are the most irresponsible spenders -- at least since the GOP stopped being a conservative party.
    False. The Republicans balanced the budget until the economy dropped after 9/11.

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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    @Benvolio
    You're either grossly uneducated on this issue or intentionally lying. The Bush tax cuts were passed prior to 9/11 and were completely unfunded. By unfunded, I mean it wiped out the Clinton surplus and did not have the appropriate cuts in government spending to offset the revenue loss. Therefore, it added to the national deficit. It was exasperated during 2003 with its sister law, The Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act which was passed post-9/11 when we were in a dual war with Afghanistan and Iraq. This highlights a fiscal irresponsibility by the Bush Administration in two lights:
    1. The Bush Administration wiped out the balanced budget with the 2001 Act.
    2. The Bush Administration continued to pursue lower taxes in favor of the wealthiest in the nation by passing an additional act in 2003, knowing our multi-trillion dollar commitment to the War on Terror.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economi...on_Act_of_2001
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

  30. #80

    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Little if any was effective until after 9/11. Remember, by definition, a budget surplus is a surplus of taxation.

  31. #81
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    it's an ultimate expression of self-interest.

    if one was wealthy and had no interest in ever getting married (see: the myriad of "single for life!" threads we even see in JUB), I can understand -- if not agree with -- their motivations. everyone pays taxes; not everyone will ever get married.

  32. #82

    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Little if any was effective until after 9/11. Remember, by definition, a budget surplus is a surplus of taxation.
    That's one way of viewing it. Another way is that it's a savings account which we can pay the bills with if unexpected things happen. Like two wars for example.

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    And as usual, gay republicans can offer absolutely no justification for why they compromise on their own and OUR dignity.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  34. #84
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Little if any was effective until after 9/11. Remember, by definition, a budget surplus is a surplus of taxation.
    By that definition, a deficit is simply a deficit of taxation.

    Are you sure you want to go with that definition?
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  35. #85

    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    By that definition, a deficit is simply a deficit of taxation.

    Are you sure you want to go with that definition?
    For those who think a surplus is good, it is surplus of taxation. Not good for those who pay the taxes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post

    For those who think a surplus is good, it is surplus of taxation. Not good for those who pay the taxes.
    You ignored his question. By your own definition, it appears taxes aren't high enough currently.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    @Benvolio
    You're either grossly uneducated on this issue or intentionally lying. The Bush tax cuts were passed prior to 9/11 and were completely unfunded. By unfunded, I mean it wiped out the Clinton surplus and did not have the appropriate cuts in government spending to offset the revenue loss. Therefore, it added to the national deficit. It was exasperated during 2003 with its sister law, The Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act which was passed post-9/11 when we were in a dual war with Afghanistan and Iraq. This highlights a fiscal irresponsibility by the Bush Administration in two lights:
    1. The Bush Administration wiped out the balanced budget with the 2001 Act.
    2. The Bush Administration continued to pursue lower taxes in favor of the wealthiest in the nation by passing an additional act in 2003, knowing our multi-trillion dollar commitment to the War on Terror.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economi...on_Act_of_2001
    This.

    If Ben is really an attorney, I bet his hero is Justice Scalia, who makes stuff up and plain lies in his decisions.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    For those who think a surplus is good, it is surplus of taxation. Not good for those who pay the taxes.
    Of course it's good for those who pay the taxes -- it means the government is building a cushion for a rainy day.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    Of course it's good for those who pay the taxes -- it means the government is building a cushion for a rainy day.
    People like him tend to ignore the good that government can do. They'd rather the government do absolutely nothing, except for the stuff they personally benefit from.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    People like him tend to ignore the good that government can do. They'd rather the government do absolutely nothing, except for the stuff they personally benefit from.
    The problem with a narrow focus of hating on the government is that government is not the only institution capable of employing coercion to change the behavior of people. Corporations do it, churches do it, unions do it, clubs do it; in fact any organization of human beings is capable of engaging in coercion to get its way. Opposing only government coercion just hands the field to other entities. So those who believe in liberty have to oppose all forms of coercion.

    The trick is that humans love to form associations of various sorts, and those associations will inevitably seek to employ some form of coercion or other. The only way to achieve liberty, then, is to keep all those organizations capable of employing significant coercion is to balance them against each other. Government must be balanced against corporations, churches, and anything else that attempt to extend their influence in ways that deny choices -- which is to say, that deny liberty.

    The flip side is that just as corporations can do good, so can government. And to deny that is to sell one's soul to a different form of tyranny.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Well, the right wingers don't believe in balance. For them everything is black and white and the employment of ANYTHING they consider to be black for ANY reason, is a mandatory slippery slope.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    As Clinton said famously, in a few years whites will be a minority and it will be a "good thing."
    I think perhaps you are “quoting” what somebody else said about something President Clinton said. I would appreciate if you will please provide an exact quote of the statement to which you are referring. As something that was “famously said,” it shouldn’t be too challenging for you to produce that quote.

    I asked for a quote of what President Clinton said. You provided a link to an archived copy of an Associated Press article, in which a neophyte editorial assistant quoted the words, “this is a very positive thing,” which doesn't quite match the two words you supposedly quoted, “good thing.”

    You indicated that the statement was “said famously” and yet I have been unsuccessful in finding a replication of the text of those remarks by the former president anywhere online. Thus far, you have also been unable or unwilling to provide a link to the text – preferably one that includes more than two (or six) words and that also provides some basis of context for the remarks.

    Your link to Ms. Simmons’ 300-word article provides a date reference and another clue that may help to solve this riddle.
    Speaking in a hotel ballroom to the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee during its annual convention …
    Those clues open up some new channels for investigation, but where is the text of his speech? After all, it includes something that was allegedly “said famously.”


    Perhaps you got your information from an Arkansas attorney’s blog? Isn’t Bill from “the natural state?”


    Or maybe some people just quote stuff, the contextual accuracy of which they don’t bother to verify.
    In all fairness, it's unclear whether Clinton actually used the words I've emphasized below, or if is just a bit of editorializing on the part of the writer. Either way, it just smells … [Link]
    I continue to assert that you, Benvolio, are quoting what somebody else said about something President Clinton said without really understanding what was said or the context in which it was stated. I’m purdy sure you won’t find the real quote, ‘cause I done tried. Guess it wasn’t so famous after all, eh?

    To quote Ms. Simmons (the neophyte AP editorial assistant who wrote the article you used to justify your two word quote that sorta turned into a different six word quote):
    All my classes were helpful, but I use the material from ethics and law the most. I have thought about those topics the most and use them in conjunction with my own experience to succeed at my job.
    Well alrighty.

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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Well, the right wingers don't believe in balance. For them everything is black and white and the employment of ANYTHING they consider to be black for ANY reason, is a mandatory slippery slope.
    And thus they don't believe in liberty.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Haven't we seen posted here before citations showing that most of the abortions in the US are by Republican parents?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    It was proven yes.
    I don’t remember seeing the proof.

    It might be helpful if someone can provide some evidence to support that claim.

  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post

    I don’t remember seeing the proof.

    It might be helpful if someone can provide some evidence to support that claim.
    I have no memory of which topic it was, or who posted it, but I distinctly remember a map of America with number of abortions by state. And red states had a much bigger percentage than blue.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Little if any was effective until after 9/11. Remember, by definition, a budget surplus is a surplus of taxation.
    Whoa, whoa. Wait a second here. First of all, your first sentence makes no sense. What is "little if any" that you are referring to? Taxes? The Act?

    Secondly, you just said that a budget surplus is a surplus of taxation that is bad for the taxpayer. Yet in previous statements, you criticize the Obama Administration for increasing the national debt. How can you be so critical of the nation's debt, when you believe that any surplus to pay it off is a bad thing? You can't criticize the rising national debt, but refuse to pay it back. That's absurd.
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

  47. #97

    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    Whoa, whoa. Wait a second here. First of all, your first sentence makes no sense. What is "little if any" that you are referring to? Taxes? The Act?

    Secondly, you just said that a budget surplus is a surplus of taxation that is bad for the taxpayer. Yet in previous statements, you criticize the Obama Administration for increasing the national debt. How can you be so critical of the nation's debt, when you believe that any surplus to pay it off is a bad thing? You can't criticize the rising national debt, but refuse to pay it back. That's absurd.
    We were talking about the Bush tax cuts in 2001, little if any of which were effective until after 9/11.
    We are critical of Obama and the Democrats for spending more than our tax income. The Bush tax cuts have expired and the Dems are still howling for the few who pay taxes to pay more, ever more. The government is now committed to borrowing the entire amount of the governments subsidies for health care. It is impossible to tax as much as the Democrats want to spend.

  48. #98
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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    We were talking about the Bush tax cuts in 2001, little if any of which were effective until after 9/11.
    We are critical of Obama and the Democrats for spending more than our tax income. The Bush tax cuts have expired and the Dems are still howling for the few who pay taxes to pay more, ever more. The government is now committed to borrowing the entire amount of the governments subsidies for health care. It is impossible to tax as much as the Democrats want to spend.
    Sorry, but an examination of the way the government is running shows that it's the Republicans who want us to keep borrowing. Conservatives would be agreeing that we need to raise taxes in order to pay our bills, but there are few conservatives in the GOP.

    Besides that, it's Republicans who refuse to address the biggest spending problem of all: defense. Republicans insist on increasing the size of the military, often in the face of opposition from the Pentagon -- they vote for bases the Pentagon doesn't want, weapons the Pentagon doesn't want, vehicles the Pentagon doesn't want. With the way the GOP approaches the military, we really ought to change the department's name back to what it used to be, not the "Department of Defense", but the "Department of War".


    Maybe someone should ask how high the minimum wage should be in order to have more people paying federal income tax, and increase it to that level.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    But increasing minimum wage would harm Walmart!!!!
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  50. #100

    Re: On Gay Republicans . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Sorry, but an examination of the way the government is running shows that it's the Republicans who want us to keep borrowing. Conservatives would be agreeing that we need to raise taxes in order to pay our bills, but there are few conservatives in the GOP.

    Besides that, it's Republicans who refuse to address the biggest spending problem of all: defense. Republicans insist on increasing the size of the military, often in the face of opposition from the Pentagon -- they vote for bases the Pentagon doesn't want, weapons the Pentagon doesn't want, vehicles the Pentagon doesn't want. With the way the GOP approaches the military, we really ought to change the department's name back to what it used to be, not the "Department of Defense", but the "Department of War".
    I think we should make it illegal to hire people. Since we increasingly punish them for doing so we need to make it a criminal offense.

    Maybe someone should ask how high the minimum wage should be in order to have more people paying federal income tax, and increase it to that level.
    The Bush tax cuts expiration resultd in a big increase on the highest incomes.
    Last edited by Benvolio; November 26th, 2013 at 12:56 PM.

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