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  1. #1

    Health Care

    I am British, I am 57 and all of my life I have never had to think about healthcare. I know the NHS gets a bad press but when you consider that that institution deals with over 2 million people a day, there is bound to be some unacceptable failures of individual care. No system is perfect.

    I am quite confident in saying that if the NHS (National Health Service ) was attacked by any political party in the UK there would be riots and civil disobedience. That is the measure of esteem that the UK people hold the NHS in.

    For someone from the UK to have to worry about the cost of going to the doctor is unimaginable. For someone in the UK to have to worry about the cost of drugs or going to hospital (apart from drop in income) is, for us unimaginable.

    This is funded by all of us, rich and poor, not without complaint, but by and large by consensus.

    Healthcare is a human right. Why is it such a big deal in the US? By the way, the US spends twice as much on healthcare per head of population the UK but their life expectancy is lower. Sometimes standing together is good!

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    Re: Health Care

    Ha! We don't want British communism here! 'murica!

    Right? Because it doesn't make sense for people to be healthy when someone could profit!

    Edit: Happy 8 000th post to me!
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    Re: Health Care

    Health care for free isn't a right. It is a legitimate question, however, to ask if it's a public good. People pay taxes to support schools because we've decided that education is a public good, and likewise with police and fire departments and food inspectors.

    If it's a public good, then it should be done in a fashion that profits no one, just like those schools and fire departments and all.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Health Care

    The United States answer to Health care is forcing everyone to "Buy" Private Insurance.
    We have MEDICAID for the poor and disabled, And we have MEDICARE for Retired people, These are funded through taxes.
    Now instead of worrying about going to the doctor or paying for Prescriptions, The main worry will be how to pay another bill, and we still have deductibles and co-pays.
    The problem with Obamacare is "Profit", Insurance Companies can not Operate if they pay out more than they take in, The costs will always be passed on to the consumer, If you can't pay and drop it, Then you must pay a fine and your still stuck paying for doctors and prescriptions.

  5. #5

    Re: Health Care

    It wouldn't 't work in the US. A relatively small group pay Federal income taxes and are expected to carry the entire burden of our society. Almost half of Americans are even now receiving welfare, not including social security and Medicare. Meanwhile millions more flood in every year expecting the freebies and eager to vote for more. The federal deficit even now is close to a trillion a year and the Democrats propose to borrow the entire amount of the Obama care federal subsidies. British type socialized medicine is an absurd fantasy for the US.
    Last edited by Benvolio; November 21st, 2013 at 05:01 PM.

  6. #6

    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by lfcda View Post
    I am British, I am 57 and all of my life I have never had to think about healthcare. I know the NHS gets a bad press but when you consider that that institution deals with over 2 million people a day, there is bound to be some unacceptable failures of individual care. No system is perfect.

    I am quite confident in saying that if the NHS (National Health Service ) was attacked by any political party in the UK there would be riots and civil disobedience. That is the measure of esteem that the UK people hold the NHS in.

    For someone from the UK to have to worry about the cost of going to the doctor is unimaginable. For someone in the UK to have to worry about the cost of drugs or going to hospital (apart from drop in income) is, for us unimaginable.

    This is funded by all of us, rich and poor, not without complaint, but by and large by consensus.

    Healthcare is a human right. Why is it such a big deal in the US? By the way, the US spends twice as much on healthcare per head of population the UK but their life expectancy is lower. Sometimes standing together is good!
    Would you purchase health care if the site where you are entering your personal data is not secure?

    Would you purchase health care if you didn't know what the price would be? (pricing is still for 27 yo and 50 yo's -- nothing is specific)

  7. #7

    Re: Health Care

    Why do we have insurance companies involved at all. It costs Medicare about 12 cents on the dollar to provide administrative services. When the claims go through private insurers, they take out about 37 cents for admin costs for profit and other expenses. There should be a single payer system.

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    It wouldn't 't work in the US. A relatively small group pay Federal income taxes and are expected to carry the entire burden of our society. Almost half of Americans are even now receiving welfare, not including social security and Medicare. Meanwhile millions more flood in every year expecting the freebies and eager to vote for more. The federal deficit even now is close to a trillion a year and the Democrats propose to borrow the entire amount of the Obama care federal subsidies. British type socialized medicine is an absurd fantasy for the US.
    I don't know why you posted that. Every user in this forum knows all the lies in it...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Would you purchase health care if the site where you are entering your personal data is not secure?

    Would you purchase health care if you didn't know what the price would be? (pricing is still for 27 yo and 50 yo's -- nothing is specific)
    [Text: Removed]
    Last edited by opinterph; November 21st, 2013 at 10:01 PM. Reason: removed baiting remarks
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Health care for free isn't a right. It is a legitimate question, however, to ask if it's a public good. People pay taxes to support schools because we've decided that education is a public good, and likewise with police and fire departments and food inspectors.

    If it's a public good, then it should be done in a fashion that profits no one, just like those schools and fire departments and all.
    Schools, police and fire departments are all forms of socialism...something despised by the right who would do away with anything that remotely resembles their definition of socialism.

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Orlandude View Post
    Schools, police and fire departments are all forms of socialism...something despised by the right who would do away with anything that remotely resembles their definition of socialism.
    It's interesting that the GOP claim to be about "family values", but what they pursue are policies that set every family against every other. They wat us to understand that families are the strength of a nation, and while there's truth in that it's also essential to understand that while a nation is more than a family, if it behaves as less than one it isn't fulfilling its potential. One can't take the family paradigm and hold onto it in the small while only acknowledging isolated individuals in the large. If we cannot be in the large what we are in the small, both individuals and families, then what claim do we have to being a people?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  11. #11
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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    It wouldn't 't work in the US. A relatively small group pay Federal income taxes and are expected to carry the entire burden of our society. Almost half of Americans are even now receiving welfare, not including social security and Medicare. Meanwhile millions more flood in every year expecting the freebies and eager to vote for more. The federal deficit even now is close to a trillion a year and the Democrats propose to borrow the entire amount of the Obama care federal subsidies. British type socialized medicine is an absurd fantasy for the US.
    Basic medical knowledge isn't hard.
    Why not open up medical services like McDonalds. Cheap and effective ....


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    Basic medical knowledge isn't hard.
    Why not open up medical services like McDonalds. Cheap and effective ....
    This is true, but we could make medical learning different in ways that would double the supply of our doctors. Not all are fit for the die-or-pass approach that the AMA has enshrined through its monopoly over the supply of doctors.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Would you purchase health care if the site where you are entering your personal data is not secure?

    Would you purchase health care if you didn't know what the price would be? (pricing is still for 27 yo and 50 yo's -- nothing is specific)
    You must first register and enter your personal data in order to get an exact quote.

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    Re: Health Care

    Health care in the UK is not free, as some American members think. We do pay National Health Contributions.
    Since Bevan introduced the concept of an NHS, millions have benefited from what has become a cornerstone of our society.

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    It wouldn't 't work in the US. A relatively small group pay Federal income taxes and are expected to carry the entire burden of our society. Almost half of Americans are even now receiving welfare, not including social security and Medicare. Meanwhile millions more flood in every year expecting the freebies and eager to vote for more. The federal deficit even now is close to a trillion a year and the Democrats propose to borrow the entire amount of the Obama care federal subsidies. British type socialized medicine is an absurd fantasy for the US.
    Let's not overlook the fact that socialized medicine is un-American. It's not who we are.
    This country was founded by people who came here to take care of themselves and be free of an overreaching government. We will never surrender our lives to government control.

    We don't want to be turned into yet another failed European Nanny-State.

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by lfcda View Post
    IHealthcare is a human right. Why is it such a big deal in the US? By the way, the US spends twice as much on healthcare per head of population the UK but their life expectancy is lower. Sometimes standing together is good!
    One. Healthcare is not a right.
    Two. The US doesn't spend money on healthcare, its citizens choose to do so.
    Three. Every expatriate Brit I know has horror stories to tell about the dear old NHS.

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by medic1 View Post
    Health care in the UK is not free, as some American members think. We do pay National Health Contributions.
    Since Bevan introduced the concept of an NHS, millions have benefited from what has become a cornerstone of our society.
    Here in Greece it is the United Kingdom's national health service that inspired our imperfect health care model, creaking at the seams the result of under funding, the consequence of our crucifying economic crisis nevertheless, a health service that never rejects the health needs of the lowest of the low, the poorest of the poor for our Christian heritage invites us to shelter the homeless, clothe the naked, and feed the hungry.

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    One. Healthcare is not a right.
    Two. The US doesn't spend money on healthcare, its citizens choose to do so.
    Three. Every expatriate Brit I know has horror stories to tell about the dear old NHS.
    I quote:

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2...mkO/story.html

    “The US often thinks its health care is the best, but we really don’t stack up very well when we compare ourselves to other high-income countries,’’ notes Cathy Schoen, senior vice president at the Commonwealth Fund. “We spend a lot more, our access is often worse, we face more medical debt, and our health outcomes are often worse.”

  19. #19

    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    You must first register and enter your personal data in order to get an exact quote.
    Why? However, I understand that the quote you are given is still not the price you will pay --- in other words, it's not exact.

  20. #20
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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Say what????

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by chuck10x View Post
    The United States answer to Health care is forcing everyone to "Buy" Private Insurance.
    We have MEDICAID for the poor and disabled, And we have MEDICARE for Retired people, These are funded through taxes.
    I really don't think you understand just how poor you have to be to get medicaid! I am not talking about poor mothers with children but look at the state figures for a single person. Poor means more or likely home less with nothing. There is some little imaginary right wing note flying around that poor all get Medicaid and that is bullshit. A single person male or female is disqualified from almost all Medicaid unless its extremely severe and they have little (very fucking little is allowed in assets) or no assets.
    In my state of Florida if you think as a single adult man (18- 50+) you are going to go waltzing into the Dept of children and families and apply for Medicaid because you make 11 or 15,000 gross a yr in a jobs that offer nothing in benes and are poor you are in for a big surprise. You may or may not qualify for some back up assistance such as the medical needy program, and it won't be much other than a lot of hassle~ but you will not be getting Medicaid. Many states are as bad or worse then Florida like Miss or Texas, the poverty leaders.
    Medicare on the other hand is a part of the Social Security insurance, it is not the same as Medicaid. If you don't or a qualified survivor of a minor child or spouse didn't pay into Medicare (SS) then you don't get it.
    Last edited by vulgar_newcomer; November 22nd, 2013 at 10:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post

    Let's not overlook the fact that socialized medicine is un-American. It's not who we are.
    This country was founded by people who came here to take care of themselves and be free of an overreaching government. We will never surrender our lives to government control.

    We don't want to be turned into yet another failed European Nanny-State.
    Empty rhetoric used to mask disdain for those less fortunate than you are.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post

    One. Healthcare is not a right.
    Two. The US doesn't spend money on healthcare, its citizens choose to do so.
    Three. Every expatriate Brit I know has horror stories to tell about the dear old NHS.
    Yeah, the US citizens are bullied into paying health insurance robber barons for "protection" they rarely actually get.

    Those deemed worthy enough to even be allowed that, I mean.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  24. #24

    Re: Health Care

    I pretty much agree with the OP’s statement. In particular, I believe access to health care is a fundamental human right as specified by the WHO and the UN’s Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This does not preclude individual responsibility from looking after one’s health.
    Thankfully, many countries recognize this right. In the US many advocacy groups campaign for equitable and universal health care. I wish them well.

    Human rights offer a normative framework that enables activists and policy-makers to develop analytical and advocacy tools for assessing and changing policy and practice. Incorporating the right to health care as a starting point for health care reform in the United States is not intended as a symbolic declaration or as shorthand for promoting a specific type of health care system. Rather, doing so reflects an understanding that the crisis in health care is linked to the disregard of social and economic rights in the US more generally. Caught in a political paradigm that designates human needs as personal, market-driven choices, health care has been excluded from the shrinking domain of public goods.
    http://www.hhrjournal.org/2013/09/13...s-perspective/

  25. #25

    Re: Health Care

    Food is even more important than health care, since death will come more quickly. In most areas, housing is more important, and warm clothing. If free health care is a right, then all the necessities must be a right. So you are really saying that everyone has a right to live in a communist country.
    But if people have a right to receive something, then others have an obligation to work to provide it to them. In communist countries everyone is required to work. That would mean that the vast welfare class would have an obligation to work to give health care to others.
    The democrats would never agree to that, and there would be riots in the street if we tried.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Food is even more important than health care, since death will come more quickly. In most areas, housing is more important, and warm clothing. If free health care is a right, then all the necessities must be a right. So you are really saying that everyone has a right to live in a communist country.
    But if people have a right to receive something, then others have an obligation to work to provide it to them. In communist countries everyone is required to work. That would mean that the vast welfare class would have an obligation to work to give health care to others.
    The democrats would never agree to that, and there would be riots in the street if we tried.
    Laughable. Ignorant fear mongering isn't a turn on, why do you not get that?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Health Care

    The idea of expanding human rights extends to necessities that can be universally supported by the economy. There is even murmuring that the Internet will follow some day.

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by medic1 View Post
    Health care in the UK is not free, as some American members think. We do pay National Health Contributions.
    Since Bevan introduced the concept of an NHS, millions have benefited from what has become a cornerstone of our society.
    That's a good point. When there were first HMOs, they often worked that way: everyone paid a fee, and that was it for all basic services. Of course only members got services, but when the HMO was local/regional, that was sensible. Now an HMO may force a member to drive two hours to a "member provider", or get no help at all.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    The idea of expanding human rights extends to necessities that can be universally supported by the economy. There is even murmuring that the Internet will follow some day.
    If the Pan-Pacific Partnership passes, the internet and many other things will be owned by corporations, in a framework that will after a time relegate governments to second place.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If the Pan-Pacific Partnership passes, the internet and many other things will be owned by corporations, in a framework that will after a time relegate governments to second place.
    I thought ICANN and all the other Internet giants were corporations. When one provider doesn't feel like catering to another your internet slows down.
    Last edited by Alnitak; November 22nd, 2013 at 02:25 PM.

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    I thought ICANN and all the other Internet giants were corporations. When one provider doesn't feel like catering to another your internet slows down.
    Oops -- it's Trans-Pacific Partnership. And if it goes into effect, the big corporations will dictate who can use the internet and how, as in who can have websites, blogs, whatever.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by vulgar_newcomer View Post
    I really don't think you understand just how poor you have to be to get medicaid! I am not talking about poor mothers with children but look at the state figures for a single person. Poor means more or likely home less with nothing. There is some little imaginary right wing note flying around that poor all get Medicaid and that is bullshit. A single person male or female is disqualified from almost all Medicaid unless its extremely severe and they have little (very fucking little is allowed in assets) or no assets.
    In my state of Florida if you think as a single adult man (18- 50+) you are going to go waltzing into the Dept of children and families and apply for Medicaid because you make 11 or 15,000 gross a yr in a jobs that offer nothing in benes and are poor you are in for a big surprise. You may or may not qualify for some back up assistance such as the medical needy program, and it won't be much other than a lot of hassle~ but you will not be getting Medicaid. Many states are as bad or worse then Florida like Miss or Texas, the poverty leaders.
    Medicare on the other hand is a part of the Social Security insurance, it is not the same as Medicaid. If you don't or a qualified survivor of a minor child or spouse didn't pay into Medicare (SS) then you don't get it.
    Medicaid and Medicare are separate and that is why I "separated" them.
    Medicaid was for the poor as I listed it, There is also SSI for Disabled people.
    You may want to check eligibility for Medicaid under Obamacare, I Know many people that are collecting that have decent jobs and are collecting because they have children, Children raise the income eligibility.
    The main point of my post is that as long as we have a "For Profit" Insurance, We will never have the Universal coverage other Countries have.

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    Re: Health Care

    Health care is a right.

    It's not just any right. It's actually a Universal Human Right.
    Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

    Source Link: http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/
    This is acknowledged by the nations of the world, including, incidentally, the United States, who helped author it and voted in favour of it, and thus made it a part of international law.

    That it should be free is not mentioned. That EVERYONE has a right to be able to afford it cannot be in dispute. In many cases this means it must be free.
    Last edited by opinterph; November 23rd, 2013 at 06:55 PM. Reason: added source link
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Health care is a right.

    It's not just any right. It's actually a Universal Human Right.

    This is acknowledged by the nations of the world, including, incidentally, the United States, who helped author it and voted in favour of it, and thus made it a part of international law.

    That it should be free is not mentioned. That EVERYONE has a right to be able to afford it cannot be in dispute. In many cases this means it must be free.
    What he said.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Health care is a right.

    It's not just any right. It's actually a Universal Human Right.


    This is acknowledged by the nations of the world, including, incidentally, the United States, who helped author it and voted in favour of it, and thus made it a part of international law.

    That it should be free is not mentioned. That EVERYONE has a right to be able to afford it cannot be in dispute. In many cases this means it must be free.
    As with other artificial rights, i.e. ones that can't be derived from first principles but rest on subjectivity, universal health care is something related to what a society can afford.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    As with other artificial rights, i.e. ones that can't be derived from first principles but rest on subjectivity, universal health care is something related to what a society can afford.
    I find it mind numbing that you consider health to be a secondary right but not gun ownership...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I find it mind numbing that you consider health to be a secondary right but not gun ownership...
    No one's asking the government to supply everyone with free firearms.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    As with other artificial rights, i.e. ones that can't be derived from first principles but rest on subjectivity, universal health care is something related to what a society can afford.
    There is nothing "artificial" about turning away someone who needs help when ill, but has no insurance or money. The NHS is far from perfect, and the way it is going under this government is tragic. Does it take up a huge amount of money? most certainly. To grade someones health on their wealth, is just not our way here.

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    As with other artificial rights, i.e. ones that can't be derived from first principles but rest on subjectivity, universal health care is something related to what a society can afford.
    It is no one's fault but your own that you've begun from the wrong first principles.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by medic1 View Post
    There is nothing "artificial" about turning away someone who needs help when ill, but has no insurance or money.
    That doesn't even make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by medic1 View Post
    The NHS is far from perfect, and the way it is going under this government is tragic. Does it take up a huge amount of money? most certainly. To grade someones health on their wealth, is just not our way here.
    As I said, purely subjective.

    I think a decent argument can be made that for a healthy society, we have a duty to provide health care to all. But it's not a right.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    It is no one's fault but your own that you've begun from the wrong first principles.
    What first principles give some people a claim on the yield of others' labor?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    What first principles give some people a claim on the yield of others' labor?
    Those based around the concept that what's good for the individual is good for society and therefore individuals should be supported. One doesn't have to go into communism to achieve that.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Those based around the concept that what's good for the individual is good for society and therefore individuals should be supported. One doesn't have to go into communism to achieve that.
    Ah, pragmatism. But pragmatism can't lead to any rights, only to obligations.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    Ah, pragmatism. But pragmatism can't lead to any rights, only to obligations.
    Cheap shot, calling the respect of human dignity "pragmatism". But whatever, I'm not about to argue "rights" with you. Your definitions are totally Martian.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Cheap shot, calling the respect of human dignity "pragmatism". But whatever, I'm not about to argue "rights" with you. Your definitions are totally Martian.
    Resorting to making stuff up again, I see. There was no mention of human dignity.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That doesn't even make sense.



    As I said, purely subjective.

    I think a decent argument can be made that for a healthy society, we have a duty to provide health care to all. But it's not a right.
    I was using "artificial" in the same context as yourself, stupidly.
    Health-care is not a right, but you can and do defend your RIGHT to own an array of firearms. TF, i live here.
    Where health-care is very much a LEGAL right, no matter your position in society.

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by medic1 View Post
    I was using "artificial" in the same context as yourself, stupidly.
    Health-care is not a right, but you can and do defend your RIGHT to own an array of firearms. TF, i live here.
    Where health-care is very much a LEGAL right, no matter your position in society.
    I was suing "artificial" as a technical term, common in scholarship (specifically philosophy). It indicates a thing labeled as belonging to a category but not possessing the substance of that category.

    Rights are things that derive from the existence of a thing. Nothing that has to be demanded from others is a right, so health care is not a right. Keeping and bearing arms is a right, because it is a subset of the right to self-defense.

    That health care must be a legal right shows that it's artificial. It's something from outside the individual, not pertaining to the substance of being an individual.

    What it may be, however, is an obligation by the rest of society. I haven't explored that thoroughly, partly because it's a lot more complex than just looking at an individual, e.g. it involves defining what a society is and what makes a given individual a member of that society.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    What first principles give some people a claim on the yield of others' labor?
    We are interdependent, and we seek self-preservation.

    The idea of a right to property derived from labour is the artificial construct that has value only inasmuch as it can be of service to those principles.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    We are interdependent, and we seek self-preservation.

    The idea of a right to property derived from labour is the artificial construct that has value only inasmuch as it can be of service to those principles.
    Property being derived from labor is a very logical step. The artificial construct in the concept of property arrives when we speak of real estate as property -- there is no logical connection there. In between that and personal property in the sense of things immediately used by a person there's a broad gray area that can be argued either way.

    As for interdependence, that may be the starting point for a rigorous definition of society with the strength to stand against the far easier rigorous definition of the rights of the individual.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Health Care

    I don't care about property or real estate. I'm talking about health care, which is a right, connected directly to this observable fact of our interdependence, and our (typically) vigorous impulse to self-preservation.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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