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  1. #1

    Socialist elected to Seattle council

    How refreshing! Good luck to Kshama Sawant and her programme to represent the 99%.

    her election does show that not only was she not afraid to be a socialist, people were not afraid of electing one. It's not just that socialism is coming into fashion; people are finding out that maybe they've been socialists this whole time and didn't know it.
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-kshama-sawant

  2. #2

    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    The big news would be if they elected someone who was not a socialist. Are there any conservatives or Republicans?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The big news would be if they elected someone who was not a socialist. Are there any conservatives or Republicans?
    Conservative OR republicans. Good distinction.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  4. #4

    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council


  5. #5
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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    ^ Yeah. That would be it.

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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Socialism is not Communism, Jack.

    It's really not a big deal. This woman holds a political viewpoint that's common in Western democracies in Europe. McCarthyism was nearly 60 years ago. Some Americans need to get over their paranoia.
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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    To be fair, she's your friendly, garden variety democratic socialist. While newsworthy here, this would be unremarkable to a Briton or German. Nothing to get worked up over, Jack.

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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    It's a reaction to be expected when the forces of extreme wealth are becoming more open in their effort to disenfranchise anyone who isn't a millionaire.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    A lot of people really need to learn the difference between socialism, communism and fascism. They're all totally different things. In fact, there are actually seven forms of socialism.

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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    I notice that until now, no one from the Greater Seattle Area has commented on this thread. Does that tell you anything? Here in Seattle, it is a non-issue. And there were Democrats, Conservatives, and Republicans in the primary, some of them didn't receive enough votes in the primary to proceed to the general election.

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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    shes already having a good impact by standing with the machinists union as Boeing is trying to gut their pensions and threaten to move out of the area, where they have been for almost a hundred years. hopefully she will pick up on the news of taxpayers being on the hook for upto $750 million for a new sports arena, to ensure seattle gets a fair deal now that shes on the council. any city would want these things but the taxpayers of Seattle already pay more than they did a year, 5 years, 10 years ago, and its only getting worse.

    the true engines of the national economy, not the 1% 'job creators', are large coastal cities like Seattle who subsidize the anti-progressive agenda of the federal government. its about time we elected someone to set the facts straight for republicans and those corporate democrats.
    Last edited by evanrick; November 19th, 2013 at 09:44 PM.
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  12. #12

    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    They are interrelated, communism being a blend of socialism and fascism, but they all entail denials of freedoms, with socialism and communism focusing on the denial of economic freedom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    They are interrelated, communism being a blend of socialism and fascism, but they all entail denials of freedoms, with socialism and communism focusing on the denial of economic freedom.
    Yeah, don't you just hate that pesky, freedom-stealing fire department?

    What if I want my home to burn to the ground?!
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Orlandude View Post
    A. In fact, there are actually seven forms of socialism.
    And all of them are evil and inherently un-American.

  15. #15

    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Yeah, don't you just hate that pesky, freedom-stealing fire department?

    What if I want my home to burn to the ground?!
    So you think if we want fire departments we are somehow obligated to accept full fledged government control of the economy and our lives? Bad Logic. Fire departments are not socialism because they are not a means of production and because, like utilities--water, electrical power, natural gas--, they do not benefit from competition and are necessarily an exception to free enterprise. They are what are called "natural monopolies", because they do not lend themselves to competition.
    Last edited by Benvolio; November 20th, 2013 at 11:27 AM.

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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Communism is a much more involved ideology, but its ideals have in every real case been hijacked by autocrats to justify totalitarianism. The economic ideals can be fairly implemented through social democracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    And all of them are evil and inherently un-American.
    Yeah like roads, sidewalks, and bridges.

    Similarly communists ideal of a classless society is very similar to equality in American jurisprudence.
    Last edited by Alnitak; November 20th, 2013 at 11:42 AM.

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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    They are interrelated, communism being a blend of socialism and fascism, but they all entail denials of freedoms, with socialism and communism focusing on the denial of economic freedom.
    Capitalism also inevitably ends up denying freedoms, including and perhaps especially economic.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    So you think if we want fire departments we are somehow obligated to accept full fledged government control of the economy and our lives? Bad Logic. Fire departments are not socialism because they are not a means of production and because, like utilities--water, electrical power, natural gas--, they do not benefit from competition and are necessarily an exception to free enterprise. They are what are called "natural monopolies", because they do not lend themselves to competition.
    They don't? It's not good if fire depts are motivated to do a better job?

    Really you are still living in the 60s.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Yeah like roads, sidewalks, and bridges.

    Similarly communists ideal of a classless society is very similar to equality in American jurisprudence.
    If all "means of production" should be privatized, then those should as well -- they are as much means of production as a roof over a factory, or the parking lot the employees use.

    And the communist idea of a classless society is almost indistinguishable from "libertopia".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    They don't? It's not good if fire depts are motivated to do a better job?

    Really you are still living in the 60s.
    Heh -- besides the fact that a fire department is as much a "means of production" as the maintenance and repair department of a major corporation facility. In fact, the main reason that fire departments are appreciated by today's right-wingers is that they protect property, which is held sacred.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  21. #21
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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If all "means of production" should be privatized, then those should as well -- they are as much means of production as a roof over a factory, or the parking lot the employees use.

    And the communist idea of a classless society is almost indistinguishable from "libertopia".
    The funding is public, but contractors still bid on government projects. We have a system of both in this country, which is just one form of socialism. We could not just count on Exxon to find construction of highways, nor the government to build everything itself.
    Last edited by Alnitak; November 20th, 2013 at 11:44 AM.

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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    They are interrelated, communism being a blend of socialism and fascism, but they all entail denials of freedoms, with socialism and communism focusing on the denial of economic freedom.
    Geeze, come on! Communism is not a blend of fascism. They are polar opposites of the political spectrum! These uneducated assumptions need to stop!

    Last edited by Just_Believe18; November 20th, 2013 at 11:52 AM.
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  23. #23

    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Communism is a much more involved ideology, but its ideals have in every real case been hijacked by autocrats to justify totalitarianism. The economic ideals can be fairly implemented through social democracy.



    Yeah like roads, sidewalks, and bridges.

    Similarly communists ideal of a classless society is very similar to equality in American jurisprudence.
    Socialists, liberals and communists have in common the belief that equality is more important than freedom, and that government should limit the ability of people to aquire more than others.

  24. #24

    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Capitalism also inevitably ends up denying freedoms, including and perhaps especially economic.
    No, it does not.

  25. #25

    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    Geeze, come on! Communism is not a blend of fascism. They are polar opposites of the political spectrum! These uneducated assumptions need to stop!
    While their ideologies are dissimilar, in practice they have most things in common: totalitarian government, end to free elections, end to freedom of speech and the press, one party states, elimination of opposition, limitation of economic freedom. Communism and fascism differ mostly in the words they use, I.e. ideology. You need to examine your own uneducated assumptions. If you combine socialist words with fascist practices, you get communism.
    Last edited by Benvolio; November 20th, 2013 at 12:04 PM.

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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Socialists, liberals and communists have in common the belief that equality is more important than freedom, and that government should limit the ability of people to aquire more than others.
    That is correct. There is no freedom to discriminate or to buy a fourth house while hard working people are shut out of affording even one. I am convinced that under a thin veil of political tact, conservatives still despise the Civil Rights Act of 1964 after all these years of protecting Jews, blacks, and women in the workplace and public accommodations.
    Last edited by Alnitak; November 20th, 2013 at 12:01 PM.

  27. #27

    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    That is correct. There is no freedom to discriminate or to buy a fourth house while hard working people are shut out of affording even one. I am convinced that under a thin veil of political tact, conservatives still despise the Civil Rights Act of 1964 after all these years of protecting Jews, blacks, and women in the workplace and public accommodations.
    Any claim to the moral high ground is forfeited by the Democrats insistence upon huge masses of immigrants having the effect of keeping the blacks from making the economic progress which they should have achieved. The civil rights acts have hurt business and benefited the plaintiff's trial lawyers--big Democrat contributors--but they have not helped the blacks much at all.

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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    No, it does not.
    There are none so blind....


    For the sake of others, I'll add some explanation:

    a free market, which is the only economic system which embodies liberty, depends on the ability of individuals to make their economic transactions on the basis of mutual agreement. Capitalism always end sup destroying this relationship, because the economic power of the large corporation enables it to dictate terms of employment, thus destroying the aspect of mutual agreement. No worker would agree, in a free market, to work for so little that he will inevitably starve or even severely lack for the necessities of life, but capitalism ends up with that as an integral part.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; November 20th, 2013 at 12:40 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post

    Socialists, liberals and communists have in common the belief that equality is more important than freedom, and that government should limit the ability of people to aquire more than others.
    Doesn't sound like any liberals I've ever met. You must roam in strange circles.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post

    No, it does not.
    Really? Tell that to the local grocery stores that Walmart kills or the Internet providers struggling under Comcast.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  31. #31

    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    There are none so blind....


    For the sake of others, I'll add some explanation:

    a free market, which is the only economic system which embodies liberty, depends on the ability of individuals to make their economic transactions on the basis of mutual agreement. Capitalism always end sup destroying this relationship, because the economic power of the large corporation enables it to dictate terms of employment, thus destroying the aspect of mutual agreement. No worker would agree, in a free market, to work for so little that he will inevitably starve or even severely lack for the necessities of life, but capitalism ends up with that as an integral part.
    The is the Marxist theory, but it has not worked that way in practice.

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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The is the Marxist theory, but it has not worked that way in practice.
    As I said, there are none so blind....


    For illustration of that, I refer you to Rolyo's post above yours above this.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  33. #33

    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Doesn't sound like any liberals I've ever met. You must roam in strange circles.
    This from someone who endlessly rants against the greedy rich and corporations, and wants higher, ever higher taxes in someone else's country.

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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    This from someone who endlessly rants against the greedy rich and corporations, and wants higher, ever higher taxes in someone else's country.
    He's just being a conservative, urging that we should pay our bills.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  35. #35

    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    There are none so blind....


    For the sake of others, I'll add some explanation:

    a free market, which is the only economic system which embodies liberty, depends on the ability of individuals to make their economic transactions on the basis of mutual agreement. Capitalism always end sup destroying this relationship, because the economic power of the large corporation enables it to dictate terms of employment, thus destroying the aspect of mutual agreement. No worker would agree, in a free market, to work for so little that he will inevitably starve or even severely lack for the necessities of life, but capitalism ends up with that as an integral part.
    Remember that in the US experience, what robs the workers of their bargaining power is the vast flood of excess workers willing to work cheap. With a labor shortage, the employers have to compete for workers.

  36. #36

    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    He's just being a conservative, urging that we should pay our bills.
    No, he thinks they have too much money.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post

    This from someone who endlessly rants against the greedy rich and corporations, and wants higher, ever higher taxes in someone else's country.
    I never rant and seeing how they barely pay ANY taxes, I'd say it's a pretty normal thing to expect them to pay their share.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Remember that in the US experience, what robs the workers of their bargaining power is the vast flood of excess workers willing to work cheap. With a labor shortage, the employers have to compete for workers.
    Weird how that's a total fantasy, isn't it?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post

    No, he thinks they have too much money.
    And you don't?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post

    Really? Tell that to the local grocery stores that Walmart kills or the Internet providers struggling under Comcast.
    I notice benvolio ignored this wonderful side of unrestrained capitalism.
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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    This from someone who endlessly rants against the greedy rich and corporations, and wants higher, ever higher taxes in someone else's country.
    Rolyo has a right to post his opinions on current events and politics without you having to criticize his citizenship in the United States. If he lives and belongs here, this is his current country.
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  42. #42

    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And you don't?
    No, and we should be concerned with how little others have and why. Contrary to Marxist belief, the poor are not poor because others are rich, and the rich do not cause others to be poor. THE reason we have poverty is because we have massive immigrations of poor and employed on a continual basis. There can be no solution to poverty without limiting immigration. Pulling down the "bourgeois" will only impoverish the country the more.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    No, and we should be concerned with how little others have and why. Contrary to Marxist belief, the poor are not poor because others are rich, and the rich do not cause others to be poor. THE reason we have poverty is because we have massive immigrations of poor and employed on a continual basis. There can be no solution to poverty without limiting immigration. Pulling down the "bourgeois" will only impoverish the country the more.
    Your pathetic theory evaporates the moment we consider the fact that multiple western countries with huge immigration still have a thriving middle class. To claim that rich corporations keeping minimum wage at ridiculously low level is somehow magically not responsible for poverty, is utterly laughable.

    Also, you haven't answered my post that I even quoted. Why is that? You've responded to everything else I've posted here. Is it that you have no ready immigrant-bashing response to that one?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  44. #44

    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Your pathetic theory evaporates the moment we consider the fact that multiple western countries with huge immigration still have a thriving middle class. To claim that rich corporations keeping minimum wage at ridiculously low level is somehow magically not responsible for poverty, is utterly laughable.

    Also, you haven't answered my post that I even quoted. Why is that? You've responded to everything else I've posted here. Is it that you have no ready immigrant-bashing response to that one?
    Our middle class is doing well. Last time I looked we still had the highest median family income, except for tiny Lichtenstein.

  45. #45
    JUB Addict chrisrobin's Avatar
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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Our middle class is doing well. Last time I looked we still had the highest median family income, except for tiny Lichtenstein.
    Our middle class is doing well.
    I beg to differ.


    Old Chinese Proverb:
    Statistics never lie, but liars use statistics.

    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

  46. #46
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    One consequence of extreme inequality in income and wealth can be that it forces the poor to live in a way that is reasonably seen as humiliating. As Adam Smith observed, there is a serious objection to a society in which some people are so much poorer than others that then have to live and dress in such a way that they cannot go out in public without shame. Here again, the evil is comparative—it is not merely an objection to having ragged clothes, or poor housing, but of having to live and to present oneself in a way that is so far below the standard generally accepted in the society that it marks one as inferior, and as someone that others would not want to associate with. This provides a reason not only to improve the lot of the poor, but also, even if their lot is, in absolute terms, not so bad, to object to the creation of a much higher standard of living for others. This may not, in some cases be a sufficient reason to deny others these benefits, but it is a recognizable cost that these benefits bring, and one that cannot be put down to irrational envy.
    http://www.economist.com/blogs/democ...d-basic-income
    T.M. Scanlon, as quoted in The Economist. For those of you who may not be familiar, the "Adam Smith" referred to in this piece is the inventor of capitalism, its main theorist, and whose ideas form the bedrock on which the free market sits.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  47. #47

    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Adam Smith could not have imagined the folly of a government which deliberately creates, expands and deepens poverty by importing millions and millions ans millions and millins of additional poor.

  48. #48
    JUB Addict cm98059's Avatar
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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Hmm, I thought this thread was about the people of Seattle electing a Socialist to the City Council. Where did it turn into a bash socialism thread? Where did it turn into a thread where benvolio gets to rant and rave towards everyone who does not subscribe to benvolio's agenda? Benvolio, STFU, Every thread is not a soapbox for you to stand on and spout your bullshit.


    Please Everyone, flag this post for moderation.

    Only two Seattleites, evanrick and myself have posted in this thread, and guess what, neither of us have any complaints about how she is performing on the city council.

  49. #49
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Adam Smith could not have imagined the folly of a government which deliberately creates, expands and deepens poverty by importing millions and millions ans millions and millins of additional poor.
    I think Mr. Smith probably appreciated the value of population growth. (The English colonial population doubled almost every 25 years in the 1700s.)

  50. #50
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: Socialist elected to Seattle council

    Quote Originally Posted by cm98059 View Post
    flag this post for moderation.
    Thanks for the suggestion. BTW, please do not inform another member to STFU.

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