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  1. #101
    O Hushed October Morning Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    I'm not one to obsess....I leave that to others, but it was the English settlerframers of the United States Constitution who drew their inspiration from The Magna Carta, when speaking to the freedoms that were granted by King John...
    Actually, not a single freedom found in the Magna Carta appears in the US Constitution as written in 1787, however due process does appear in the Bill of Rights. The Magna Carta mostly dealt with limiting the powers of the crown and church, both of which are obviously absent from the US Constitution. Therefore, any connection is tenuous at best.

    The US Constitution draws all of its inspiration from the European Enlightenment, which took place centuries after the reign of King John. The structure of our government isn't even English, rather it derives from the French philosopher Montesquieu and the Roman Constitution of balanced powers. In fact, as far as I know, the US is the first nation with our form of government.

    with that other fine English (born, and raised) radical, Thomas Paine not arriving in the colonies until he was 37 years of age, who also drew his inspiration from The Magna Carta and contributing so much to the struggle for the independence of the New England colonies....but, of course you already knew that.
    Actually, the main idea in the Declaration of Independence that government should derive from the 'consent of the governed' was not in the Magna Carta either, but it was English.
    Last edited by Alnitak; November 20th, 2013 at 09:54 AM.

  2. #102
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    There is no doubt that The Magna Carta inspired the framers of the United States Constitution.

    I quote:

    [I]he 1765 Stamp Act extended the stamp duty, which had been in force on home territory since 1694 to cover the American colonies as well. However, colonists of the Thirteen Colonies despised this since they were not represented in Parliament and refused to accept that an external body, which did not represent them, could tax them in what they saw was a denial of their rights as Englishmen. The cry "no taxation without representation" rang throughout the colonies.

    The influence of Magna Carta can be clearly seen in the United States Bill of Rights, which enumerates various rights of the people and restrictions on government power, such as:

    No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.

    Article 21 from the Declaration of Rights in the Maryland Constitution of 1776 reads:

    That no freeman ought to be taken, or imprisoned, or disseized of his freehold, liberties, or privileges, or outlawed, or exiled, or in any manner destroyed, or deprived of his life, liberty, or property, but by the judgment of his peers, or by the law of the land.
    The Ninth Amendment to the United States Constitution states that, “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.” The framers of the United States Constitution wished to ensure that rights they already held, such as those provided by the Magna Carta, were not lost unless explicitly curtailed in the new United States Constitution. [/I]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta...
    Last edited by opinterph; November 20th, 2013 at 10:06 AM. Reason: added quote tags

  3. #103
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post

    The influence of Magna Carta can be clearly seen in the United States Bill of Rights, which enumerates various rights of the people and restrictions on government power, such as:

    No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.
    Thanks, but, I just mentioned that in the previous post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Actually, not a single freedom found in the Magna Carta appears in the US Constitution as written in 1787, however due process does appear in the Bill of Rights.
    The Constitution was ratified in 1788. The Bill of Rights was added in 1790 as an afterthought.

  4. #104
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    I neglected to mention that during the Revolutionary War, New York State, and city remained the most loyal of British colonies with the British Army only withdrawing from NY state immediately after the signing of The Treaty of Paris, 1783.

    Knowing Palemale's ethnic background I would have imagined him placing Irish influence in New York City ahead of Dutch influence.

  5. #105
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Thanks, but, I just mentioned that in the previous post.



    The Constitution was ratified in 1788. The Bill of Rights was added in 1790 as an afterthought.
    The drafting was inspired by The Magna Carta.

    The English colonists did not stop drawing on their cultural, and historical heritage simply because of their war with the British Government.

  6. #106
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    I quote:
    Can you share a source for the first portion of text you quoted?

  7. #107
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    I neglected to mention that during the Revolutionary War, New York State, and city remained the most loyal of British colonies with the British Army only withdrawing from NY state immediately after the signing of The Treaty of Paris, 1783.

    Knowing Palemale's ethnic background I would have imagined him placing Irish influence in New York City ahead of Dutch influence.
    The patriots fled New York in 1776 and the occupying army at one point outnumbered the city's residents.

  8. #108
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The drafting was inspired by The Magna Carta.

    The English colonists did not stop drawing on their cultural, and historical heritage simply because of their war with the British Government.
    English equity was and still is the only legal continuity. The framers did indeed neuter the English Constitution with the American one.

    There is nothing in the Magna Carta to draw inspiration from other than waiving a big middle finger to the king. It does not propose a revolutionary form of government, democracy, equality, or balanced powers. All of those things were pan-European enlightenment values of the 17th and 18th centuries. The 5th Amendment to the US Constitution is the only verifiable connection to that medieval document.
    Last edited by Alnitak; November 20th, 2013 at 10:14 AM.

  9. #109
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Can you share a source for the first portion of text you quoted?
    The convenient reference is the Wikipedia article...what specifically draws your attention?

  10. #110
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    English equity was and still is the only legal continuity. The framers did indeed neuter the English Constitution with the American one.

    There is nothing in the Magna Carta to draw inspiration from other than waiving a big middle finger to the king. It does not propose a revolutionary form of government, democracy, equality, or balanced powers. All of those things were pan-European enlightenment values of the 17th and 18th centuries. The 5th Amendment to the US Constitution is the only verifiable connection to that medieval document.
    Of course there is for The Magna Carta principle claim to fame is that it obliged the king to share power, with the people finally removing absolute powers from the king's hands....in this sense the New England colonists developed this theme to guarantee that their representation would be entirely in their hands, and not in the UK where they were not represented....this appears elementary to me....why not to you?

  11. #111
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Of course there is for The Magna Carta principle claim to fame is that it obliged the king to share power, with the people finally removing absolute powers from the king's hands....in this sense the New England colonists developed this theme to guarantee that their representation would be entirely in their hands, and not in the UK where they were not represented....this appears elementary to me....why not to you?
    Because not only did we believe that the king should relinquish power, we eliminated the concept of a crown completely. Not even Mortimer or DeMontfort's parliament dreamed of such a thing. The English love and respect the crown, regardless of who wears it, still to this day as they did back then, quite unlike the American perspective.
    Last edited by Alnitak; November 20th, 2013 at 10:22 AM.

  12. #112
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    The patriots fled New York in 1776 and the occupying army at one point outnumbered the city's residents.
    That American patriots fled New York made good sense, for it preserved their freedom of movement even, their lives that did not stop the loyalists remain living there....yes, you're correct New York city had a small population in those days, compared to current numbers....and?

    Should I remind you that John Adams estimated that the loyalist population of the New England colonies, at the time of revolution was some twenty to thirty percent with many loyalist militias imposing significant losses on the Continental Army...I am sure that you are aware of this.
    Last edited by kallipolis; November 20th, 2013 at 10:25 AM.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Because not only did we believe that the king should relinquish power, we eliminated the concept of a crown completely. Not even Mortimer or DeMontfort's parliament dreamed of such a thing. The English love and respect the crown, regardless of who wears it, still to this day as they did back then, quite unlike the American perspective.
    The English colonists were devoted to their democratic ideals, as true English men, and women are today....what else is new?

  14. #114
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    That American patriots fled New York made good sense, for it preserved their freedom of movement even, their lives that did not stop the loyalists remain living there....yes, you're New York city had a small population in those days, compared to current numbers....and?
    And? Of course New York City turned loyalist when the patriots fled and the British army occupied it.

    Should I remind you that John Adams estimated that the loyalist population of the New England colonies, at the time of revolution was some twenty to thirty percent with many loyalist militias imposing significant losses on the Continental Army...I am sure that you are aware of this.
    Loyalists were a joke, a thoroughly weak willed and pusillanimous party to the war. The reason that the British lost was due to the character of loyalists, who disappeared as soon as the British regulars left a battle scene, like a fart in the wind. Thus the British could not hold territory outside of major cities and victory was impossible.
    Last edited by Alnitak; November 20th, 2013 at 10:31 AM.

  15. #115
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The English colonists were devoted to their democratic ideals, as true English men, and women are today....what else is new?

    Which, of course, is not found in the Magna Carta.

    Thank you.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    And? Of course New York City turned loyalist when the patriots fled and the British army occupied it.



    Loyalists were a joke, a thoroughly weak willed and pusillanimous party to the war. The reason that the British lost was due to the character of loyalists, who disappeared as soon as the British regulars left, like a fart in the wind. Thus the British could not hold territory outside of major cities and victory was impossible.
    The British military garrison occupied New York because it was loyalist guaranteeing the troops freedom to do their stuff without fear of counter actions from the revolutionaries.

    The reason the British Government lost the war can be squarely laid at the door of France.....

    That the war continued for years following York Town is evidence that the loyalists were more than a match for the revolutionaries.

  17. #117
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Which, of course, is not found in the Magna Carta.

    Thank you.
    The process of democratisation begins somewhere, and for the English speaking peoples of this planet, The Magna Carta is the source of the democratic traditions that have evolved over the centuries.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The British military garrison occupied New York because it was loyalist guaranteeing the troops freedom to do their stuff without fear of counter actions from the revolutionaries.
    Tell that to the patriots on Brooklyn Heights; the largest organization of patriot manpower during the entire war took place there to defend New York City.

    The reason the British Government lost the war can be squarely laid at the door of France.....

    That the war continued for years following York Town is evidence that the loyalists were more than a match for the revolutionaries.
    Actually, the war effectively stopped at Yorktown and there were no more major battles despite a sizable army remaining in New York City. The British public and parliament were sick of the war by 1781 and wanted it over. While France provided a decisive victory in the Chesapeake Bay, that just prevented Cornwallis from returning to New York City. Even if Cornwallis had escaped, the British would not have tried to break out of New York for a third time. Remember the first two invasions of New Jersey and Philadelphia ended in disaster.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The process of democratisation begins somewhere, and for the English speaking peoples of this planet, The Magna Carta is the source of the democratic traditions that have evolved over the centuries.

    The process of English democratization began when MPs were elected at De Montfort's parliament, which took place 50 years after the original Magna Carta.

  20. #120
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Tell that to the patriots on Brooklyn Heights; the largest organization of patriot manpower during the entire war took place there to defend New York City.



    Actually, the war effectively stopped at Yorktown and there were no more major battles despite a sizable army remaining in New York City. The British public and parliament were sick of the war by 1781 and wanted it over. While France provided a decisive victory in the Chesapeake Bay, that just prevented Cornwallis from returning to New York City. Even if Cornwallis had escaped, the British would not have tried to break out of New York for a third time. Remember the first two invasions of New Jersey and Philadelphia ended in disaster.
    The final chapter in this family dispute was the intervention of France....however, you may characterize particular battles towards the end of the war.

    I must eat my evening meal....thanks, for the exchanges.

    I am happy you are still focusing on marriage rights for gays....

  21. #121
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The convenient reference is the Wikipedia article...what specifically draws your attention?
    The text in your post appears to be paraphrased – not quoted.

  22. #122
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The final chapter in this family dispute was the intervention of France....however, you may characterize particular battles towards the end of the war.

    I must eat my evening meal....thanks, for the exchanges.

    I am happy you are still focusing on marriage rights for gays....
    Indeed, good exchange.

    You are a challenging debater.

  23. #123

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Actually, not a single freedom found in the Magna Carta appears in the US Constitution as written in 1787, however due process does appear in the Bill of Rights. The Magna Carta mostly dealt with limiting the powers of the crown and church, both of which are obviously absent from the US Constitution. Therefore, any connection is tenuous at best.

    The US Constitution draws all of its inspiration from the European Enlightenment, which took place centuries after the reign of King John. The structure of our government isn't even English, rather it derives from the French philosopher Montesquieu and the Roman Constitution of balanced powers. In fact, as far as I know, the US is the first nation with our form of government.



    Actually, the main idea in the Declaration of Independence that government should derive from the 'consent of the governed' was not in the Magna Carta either, but it was English.
    By the time of the Revolution, all the colonies had written constitutions with appointed governors, an upper house, usually appointed,and an elected lower house. After July 4, 1776, the constitutions were amended to provide elected governors and upper houses. The Federal Constitution followed the pattern of the State constitutions, with the Senate appointed by State legislatures. The States, except Louisiana, enacted statutes adopting the Common Law of England as it existed on July 4, 1776 as the law of the state.

  24. #124
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    By the time of the Revolution, all the colonies had written constitutions with appointed governors, an upper house, usually appointed,and an elected lower house. After July 4, 1776, the constitutions were amended to provide elected governors and upper houses. The Federal Constitution followed the pattern of the State constitutions, with the Senate appointed by State legislatures. The States, except Louisiana, enacted statutes adopting the Common Law of England as it existed on July 4, 1776 as the law of the state.
    See post 108, the very first sentence.

  25. #125

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Well noted.....for along with English Common Law I'm surprised that Palemale has chosen to place so much emphasis on the Dutch influence in New York State, a small colony that survived some fifty years before the English assumed full control....while also noting that apart from African slaves, the majority of the white European population in New Netherland were English colonists making assimilation by the English crown that much easier.....

    That later migration brought in Middle, and East Europeans, Italians, Irish etc. brings back happy memories of my visits to NYC where the melting pot is a joy to experience.
    The Irish influence on the culture and politics of New York, and the United States, is enormous. Indeed, many of the New Deal reforms came out of New York and the Irish dominated Democratic Party. That doesn't negate the enormous impact of the Dutch in New York. Anywhere you look in America, the culture and politics of the original, European settlers tend to endure and influence in some fashion or another. It is not a phenomenon unique to the New York metropolitan area. The Puritan influence in New England is enormous, even though Catholics, the majority of Irish descent, far outnumber protestants of English descent. The French influence in New Orleans and Southern Louisiana is also undeniable. The influence of the Scotch-Irish (whom Benjamin Franklin called white savages) in the Appalachians and inland South is enormous.

    New York's Dutch influence is probably most evident to people who relocate here from other areas of the country.
    Last edited by palemale; November 20th, 2013 at 11:54 AM.

  26. #126

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    Journalist Colin Woodard wrote a recent article positing that the United States is actually made up of 11 different nations. The smallest nation on his map, geographically, is the New York City Metropolitan Area, which he calls New Netherland. Of course, the description about New York and what makes it distinct is all about our Dutch origins. It's an interesting article and worth a read.

    http://www.tufts.edu/alumni/magazine...p-in-arms.html
    The true nature of the article is exposed by this partisan abomination, discussing the South:
    "This nation offered a version of classical Republicanism modeled on the slave states of the ancient world, where democracy was the privilege of the few and enslavement the natural lot of the many. Its caste systems smashed by outside intervention, it continues to fight against expanded federal powers, taxes on capital and the wealthy, and environmental, labor, and consumer regulations." - See more at: http://www.tufts.edu/alumni/magazine....pk28JgEG.dpuf
    It would difficult to devise a more blatant lie. It was "Classical Republicanism" which fought a civil war against the Democrats to end slavery, and it would be impossible to find a single Republican advocating "enslavement of the many". It was the Democrats who enslaved the slaves, fought to keep them enslaved and who even now work for an all-powerful government with ever expanding control of the economy and our lives.
    Last edited by opinterph; November 20th, 2013 at 03:56 PM. Reason: added quote tags

  27. #127
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    That the residents of New York city, and state speak a version of the English language, and the United States Constitution has as its inspiration The Magna Carta I suspect that apart from the Bronx family, waffles, and donuts the Dutch influence on New York might well be considered minimal compared with that of the British....apart from all the other ethnic groups settling in that city, and state who have also contributed significantly to the development of New York city, and state.
    Really, the Bannockburn Declaration* is more inspiration for the Constitution than is the Great Charter: it rests sovereignty in the people and suggests a balance of powers within government.




    *Declaration of Arbroath

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Actually, not a single freedom found in the Magna Carta appears in the US Constitution as written in 1787, however due process does appear in the Bill of Rights. The Magna Carta mostly dealt with limiting the powers of the crown and church, both of which are obviously absent from the US Constitution. Therefore, any connection is tenuous at best.
    Well, they are, in that the Constitution limits both -- to zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    The US Constitution draws all of its inspiration from the European Enlightenment, which took place centuries after the reign of King John. The structure of our government isn't even English, rather it derives from the French philosopher Montesquieu and the Roman Constitution of balanced powers. In fact, as far as I know, the US is the first nation with our form of government.
    Not all -- some commentators of the period note that inspiration was drawn from the structure of the Iroquois confederation, which is a bit outside the Enlightenment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Actually, the main idea in the Declaration of Independence that government should derive from the 'consent of the governed' was not in the Magna Carta either, but it was English.
    More properly, it was Scottish -- they recognized that principle back before there even was an England.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    The Constitution was ratified in 1788. The Bill of Rights was added in 1790 as an afterthought.
    No, it wasn't "an afterthought" -- it was a promised addition without which the Constitution itself would not have been ratified.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Because not only did we believe that the king should relinquish power, we eliminated the concept of a crown completely. Not even Mortimer or DeMontfort's parliament dreamed of such a thing. The English love and respect the crown, regardless of who wears it, still to this day as they did back then, quite unlike the American perspective.
    Sometimes -- more often of late -- I've thought that we should have kept a monarch, but specifically a Queen, who would have the authority to spank the President, Vice President, and Speaker when they had been naughty.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The process of democratisation begins somewhere, and for the English speaking peoples of this planet, The Magna Carta is the source of the democratic traditions that have evolved over the centuries.
    No, it isn't -- for that, look to Bannockburn and the Scots.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The true nature of the article is exposed by this partisan abomination, discussing the South:
    "This nation offered a version of classical Republicanism modeled on the slave states of the ancient world, where democracy was the privilege of the few and enslavement the natural lot of the many. Its caste systems smashed by outside intervention, it continues to fight against expanded federal powers, taxes on capital and the wealthy, and environmental, labor, and consumer regulations." - See more at: http://www.tufts.edu/alumni/magazine....pk28JgEG.dpuf

    It would difficult to devise a more blatant lie. It was "Classical Republicanism" which fought a civil war against the Democrats to end slavery, and it would be impossible to find a single Republican advocating "enslavement of the many".
    From the context, "classical Republicanism" is meant to indicate that of both Rome and Athens.

    And the modern Republican Party of the US does indeed advocate the enslavement of the many -- they've just changed the scenery, but the substance is the same. That's why I'm a Libertarian -- the GOP no longer believes in liberty (nor does the donkey).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  33. #133

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    From the context, "classical Republicanism" is meant to indicate that of both Rome and Athens.

    And the modern Republican Party of the US does indeed advocate the enslavement of the many -- they've just changed the scenery, but the substance is the same. That's why I'm a Libertarian -- the GOP no longer believes in liberty (nor does the donkey).
    Perhaps, but capitalizing Republicanism suggests that he intended a partisan slur as well.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Perhaps, but capitalizing Republicanism suggests that he intended a partisan slur as well.
    Possibly so.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Sometimes -- more often of late -- I've thought that we should have kept a monarch, but specifically a Queen, who would have the authority to spank the President, Vice President, and Speaker when they had been naughty.
    Yes, it would be useful to have a governor general who can dismiss Congress and order new elections, as happened in Australia in the 1970s. The precedent in recent history is that such powers have been used responsibly.

  36. #136

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    I think it is clear that we should move to the parliamentary system with the chief executive chosen by Congress as in most of the worlds successful democracies. We should not have a monarch-- unless, of course we get to be king. It is so hard to be elected President now that the qualities needed to be elected are not those to be a good President. Experience and a record are a negatives which makes election harder. Governors with no federal experience and compromises to live down have the best chance. Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Bush. Obama.
    Be honest. Obama was elected on the basis of his ability to read very well from a TelePrompter, and little else.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Our Constitution is undeniably broken such that the federal government cannot tackle the nation's most pressing problems such as a crushing debt. We can keep our current government and reform it. Eliminate first past the post elections, corrupt primaries, and an additional executive with the power to dissolve Congress.

  38. #138

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    The direct election of the chief executive by the people necessarily results in the election on the basis of "movie star qualities" of looks, good reading ability and good script, and no experience to live down. I include the electoral college election as "direct " for this purpose.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Our Constitution is undeniably broken such that the federal government cannot tackle the nation's most pressing problems such as a crushing debt. We can keep our current government and reform it. Eliminate first past the post elections, corrupt primaries, and an additional executive with the power to dissolve Congress.
    Eliminating FPtP is a must -- to be elected, a candidate must have an actual majority, or it isn't actually democracy. But in addition, "None of the Above" needs to be on the ballot, so voters can say "enough of this shit -- give us real choices".

    Along with that, election to the House must be proportionate within each state delegation.

    For dissolving Congress, I'd go with a five-member panel elected by the state governors -- and three out of five would be enough to dissolve.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The direct election of the chief executive by the people necessarily results in the election on the basis of "movie star qualities" of looks, good reading ability and good script, and no experience to live down. I include the electoral college election as "direct " for this purpose.
    A better chief executive is obtained if selected from among those already known to have experience, by those who have served with them. The Electoral College served the purpose so long as there was no huge disparity in votes between the states, but now it is only a little better than direct election would be.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    No, it isn't -- for that, look to Bannockburn and the Scots.
    What does the battle of Bannockburn have to do with The Magna Carta?

    The Scots, and the English are still fighting one another...avoid attending a football game between the two countries.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Really, the Bannockburn Declaration* is more inspiration for the Constitution than is the Great Charter: it rests sovereignty in the people and suggests a balance of powers within government.




    *Declaration of Arbroath
    You may well be correct but its significance pales (lost in the sands of time) in comparison with The Magna Carta, a much more influential document.
    Last edited by kallipolis; November 21st, 2013 at 01:24 AM.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    The Irish influence on the culture and politics of New York, and the United States, is enormous. Indeed, many of the New Deal reforms came out of New York and the Irish dominated Democratic Party. That doesn't negate the enormous impact of the Dutch in New York. Anywhere you look in America, the culture and politics of the original, European settlers tend to endure and influence in some fashion or another. It is not a phenomenon unique to the New York metropolitan area. The Puritan influence in New England is enormous, even though Catholics, the majority of Irish descent, far outnumber protestants of English descent. The French influence in New Orleans and Southern Louisiana is also undeniable. The influence of the Scotch-Irish (whom Benjamin Franklin called white savages) in the Appalachians and inland South is enormous.

    New York's Dutch influence is probably most evident to people who relocate here from other areas of the country.

    I've discussed your assertion with two American friends here (one working at your embassy) and both replied with big grins, no words accompanied their facial expression

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    The Puritan influence in New England is enormous, even though Catholics, the majority of Irish descent, far outnumber protestants of English descent.
    It is also noteworthy that some 13 American presidents were of Irish Protestant descent, and just one of Irish Catholic descent (JFK)

    I'd say that Irish Protestants were much more influential in the development of the United States than Irish Catholics....excepting Irish Catholic influence in the police service

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    What does the battle of Bannockburn have to do with The Magna Carta?

    The Scots, and the English are still fighting one another...avoid attending a football game between the two countries.
    The Magna Carta has nothing in it about democracy, Bannockburn (the Declaration) does.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    You may well be correct but its significance pales (lost in the sands of time) in comparison with The Magna Carta, a much more influential document.
    It's significance can't pale in comparison to the Magna Carta, because there is no comparison: the Magna Carta knows nothing of democracy.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Democracy itself is inconsequential. The Magna Carta proposed the first constraints on the power of the ruler over the ruled. Without it the question would be "Who shall be our tyrant, the monarch or the mob?"

    Who rules has never been as important as how the ruling is done, and Magna Carta put us on that path.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Democracy itself is inconsequential. The Magna Carta proposed the first constraints on the power of the ruler over the ruled. Without it the question would be "Who shall be our tyrant, the monarch or the mob?"

    Who rules has never been as important as how the ruling is done, and Magna Carta put us on that path.
    Granted, while it made the first step towards limiting the power of the center, the Magna Carta didn't change that question, it just changed the way it's answered. British government tends to give the answer, "The mob", as does any government without checks and balances built in, and especially without a written constitution guaranteeing rights and limiting powers to those enumerated.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The Magna Carta has nothing in it about democracy, Bannockburn (the Declaration) does.
    The process of democratisation among the English language nations began with The Magna Carta....that the charter lacked the word democracy does not negate the supreme significance of that document's importance initating the process of democratisation.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Granted, while it made the first step towards limiting the power of the center, the Magna Carta didn't change that question, it just changed the way it's answered. British government tends to give the answer, "The mob", as does any government without checks and balances built in, and especially without a written constitution guaranteeing rights and limiting powers to those enumerated.
    You're playing with words...revealing a contrarian's response.

    A written constitution does not guarantee the rights of the people, by limiting the powers of rulers.....the people provide that guarantee by their actions curtailing the power of rulers.....demonstrated by the American Revolution.

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