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  1. #51
    Civis Americanus Sum Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    IF all the South had decided to go it's own way no Union.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Of do you think that New England was going to go to war to stop them in 1789?

    Please.
    The South of 1789 was not the South of 1860. It literally had nothing, no major harbors other than Charleston, and no industry whatsoever. The disparity, as great as it was in 1860, was even more so in 1789. The South would not have had a choice.

  2. #52
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    We've entered whatever territory, you are determined to say that the empty, powerless South had no choice if only Canada!!!!!!! Please. Who wrote the declaration of Independence? A Southerner. Who was the first president? A Southerner, 6 of the First 10 Presidents were Southerners, strange for such and empty and powerless place.

    And ultimately the South said a big fuck you to Congress and it took five years of carnage to put the Union back together again.

    But whatever, you seem to be determined to have your revision of history, probably because it makes you feel smug. So be it, I've gotten bored.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  3. #53
    Civis Americanus Sum Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    We've entered whatever territory, you are determined to say that the empty, powerless South had no choice if only Canada!!!!!!! Please.
    Yes, it would have tipped the balance enormously to have an additional five Northern states.

    Who wrote the declaration of Independence? A Southerner.
    Strange isn't it? Given their proclivity for slavery. Oh, and the Declaration of Independence was not a constitution.

    Who was the first president? A Southerner, 6 of the First 10 Presidents were Southerners, strange for such and empty and powerless place.
    Of course Canada wasn't actually part of the American revolution.

    And ultimately the South said a big fuck you to Congress and it took five years of carnage to put the Union back together again.
    Yeah in 1860, not in 1789.

    But whatever, you seem to be determined to have your revision of history, probably because it makes you feel smug. So be it, I've gotten bored.
    Interesting how I brought facts to the table, while you brought a temper.
    Last edited by Alnitak; November 14th, 2013 at 03:49 PM.

  4. #54
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Canadian provinces were invited to the First Continental Congress. Had they participated in the war, the United States would be absolutely enormous and unshakably liberal. Slavery would have also ended much sooner.
    I've always thought it sad that they didn't join in. It would be fun to have an alternate history where they had -- I've pondered whether that might have been enough to prevent the Civil War.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  5. #55
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Well you're wrong because it takes a voting majority in Congress to effect the law. That was true in 1789, and it's true now. With Canada, the votes would have been there to outlaw slavery before the Civil War.
    The votes would have been there in Congress to start the Civil War, is the reality, if that vote had been to outlaw slavery, Even with Canadian provinces as states in the Union, ending slavery would have had to be done by whittling away at it, not all at once.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  6. #56
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    The South of 1789 was not the South of 1860. It literally had nothing, no major harbors other than Charleston, and no industry whatsoever. The disparity, as great as it was in 1860, was even more so in 1789. The South would not have had a choice.
    The South would have had just as much choice as they did in history as it played out: there would have been no united colonies standing against Great Britain, and if the rest waited until after that war to impose abolition, the South would have walked.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  7. #57
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Yeah in 1860, not in 1789.
    The South was ready to walk in 1775 -- fifteen years would not have made them change their minds. Any time until Britain had actually done away with slavery, they would have preferred to go back to London than submit to an abolitionist Washington.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  8. #58
    Civis Americanus Sum Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The South would have had just as much choice as they did in history as it played out: there would have been no united colonies standing against Great Britain, and if the rest waited until after that war to impose abolition, the South would have walked.
    The remaining anti-federalist states quickly figured out that they had no choice and ratifying the Constitution was inevitable...

  9. #59
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    The remaining anti-federalist states quickly figured out that they had no choice and ratifying the Constitution was inevitable...
    They ratified a constitution that put off the civil war for their generation. Had they been presented with one that contained abolition, they would not have signed -- they would have formed their own country. They would have done that if Jefferson had not backed down with his Declaration, and would have done so at whatever point abolition was put into law.

    If the force of law would have been so binding as you suggest, there never would have been a Civil War at all. The reality is that it was only put off so long because the North compromised over and over in order to keep the dream of independence alive.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  10. #60
    Civis Americanus Sum Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    They ratified a constitution that put off the civil war for their generation. Had they been presented with one that contained abolition, they would not have signed -- they would have formed their own country. They would have done that if Jefferson had not backed down with his Declaration, and would have done so at whatever point abolition was put into law.

    If the force of law would have been so binding as you suggest, there never would have been a Civil War at all. The reality is that it was only put off so long because the North compromised over and over in order to keep the dream of independence alive.
    I would have liked to have seen the South try in 1789. No allies, no industry, no ports...

  11. #61
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    I would have liked to have seen the South try in 1789. No allies, no industry, no ports...
    It would have been simple: they would have invited Britain back.

    They would have had no allies in 1775, either. It would have made no difference, because people backed into a corner fight.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  12. #62
    Civis Americanus Sum Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It would have been simple: they would have invited Britain back.

    They would have had no allies in 1775, either. It would have made no difference, because people backed into a corner fight.
    Parliament actually cut off the war because the British people were at their wits end. Yorktown didn't stop the British from continuing the war. They had another whole army in New York City, an even larger one in fact than Cornwallis had. I seriously doubt just six years after the Treaty of Paris that Parliament would have allowed it.

  13. #63

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Except you just said the Southern states couldn't be forced into the Constitution, when four states actually were.
    No, Article VII provided that once 9 states ratified, it would be effective "between the States so ratifying the same." No state was forced into the Constitution.

  14. #64
    Civis Americanus Sum Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    No, Article VII provided that once 9 states ratified, it would be effective "between the States so ratifying the same." No state was forced into the Constitution.
    Congress nevertheless forced them economically, by threatening to treat Rhode Island like a foreign state. When Rhode Island still refused, the Senate slapped Rhode Island with economic sanctions, and the state eventually caved. Same story with North Carolina.

    Read "The Constitution in Congress" by David Currie.
    Last edited by Alnitak; November 15th, 2013 at 04:55 AM.

  15. #65
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    I have to say that it grieves me that Britain didn't force the issue of retaining the Indiana territories and Ohio.....just think all the people in those areas would have universal health care and homo marriage by now.
    I'm more annoyed about not buying Alaska. What was Westminster thinking? I'd've gladly taken/kept the rest of the Columbia District. I think the Province of Thompson has a nice ring to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I've always thought it sad that they didn't join in. It would be fun to have an alternate history where they had -- I've pondered whether that might have been enough to prevent the Civil War.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Canadian provinces were invited to the First Continental Congress. Had they participated in the war, the United States would be absolutely enormous and unshakably liberal. Slavery would have also ended much sooner.
    We had the good sense to realise that one shitty king was nothing to justify a giant epic tantrum. (a piece of advice that will probably again serve us well over the next 30 years or so.)

    Canada enjoyed the further development of democratic institutions pretty much at the same time as the US colonies, just without the same kind of revolution. Indeed the commitment to advancement without arms is a defining national characteristic. So, I don't think the provinces would have joined, nor do I think they should have; I've thought it sad that they couldn't persuade the other colonies to stay.

    If we're looking at alternative histories, I think it is more fun, for the sheer scale of the difference, to imagine what it would be like if France had maintained its claims.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  16. #66
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    If we're looking at alternative histories, I think it is more fun, for the sheer scale of the difference, to imagine what it would be like if France had maintained its claims.
    France could not possibly have maintained her claims in the New World.

    Not anymore successfully than did England or Spain.

    Attempting to hold onto them would only have resulted in more wars, with the same ultimate outcome.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Parliament actually cut off the war because the British people were at their wits end. Yorktown didn't stop the British from continuing the war. They had another whole army in New York City, an even larger one in fact than Cornwallis had. I seriously doubt just six years after the Treaty of Paris that Parliament would have allowed it.
    With an invitation? When it would mean getting a large chunk of land back?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  18. #68
    JUB Addict darden's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    France could not possibly have maintained her claims in the New World.

    Not anymore successfully than did England or Spain.

    Attempting to hold onto them would only have resulted in more wars, with the same ultimate outcome.
    yeah... had the Louisiana Purchase not occurred, the Mexican-American War probably would have been the French-American War. there was too much internal desire to expand westward and too little ability for the European empires to defend their colonies.

    Napoleon's interests seemed to lie squarely in Europe, and prior to the Purchase, I think the founding father's figured they'd just keep settling westward regardless, because there wasn't anything anyone could do about it.

  19. #69
    Civis Americanus Sum Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    With an invitation? When it would mean getting a large chunk of land back?
    And send over warships and land troops and repeat the embarrassing rout by Nathaniel Greene all over again? I don't think so.

  20. #70
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    And send over warships and land troops and repeat the embarrassing rout by Nathaniel Greene all over again? I don't think so.
    It would have been a no-brainer: the northern states would have been in no condition to fight against their southern neighbors, and the French were in no shape to help out a second time. London could have just sent some troops to garrison the border and apply economic clout to make it stand.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  21. #71
    JUB Addict maxpowr9's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It would have been a no-brainer: the northern states would have been in no condition to fight against their southern neighbors, and the French were in no shape to help out a second time. London could have just sent some troops to garrison the border and apply economic clout to make it stand.
    Again, people seem to forget the fact that I said: "loyalists fled New England and went into New Brunswick". New Brunswick was predominately French before the loyalists came into the area and claimed a bunch of land for themselves. I love me some subjunctive history but Canada would in no way join the "United States" even back then. The only exception was Nova Scotia and the British strong armed them from joining the US.

    Canada was basically where all the northern loyalists fled to which is why Canada till this day, much to its chagrin, still celebrates the Queen's Birthday.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Chagrin. Hmm.
    I think the word you are looking for is "delight."
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  23. #73
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Again, people seem to forget the fact that I said: "loyalists fled New England and went into New Brunswick". New Brunswick was predominately French before the loyalists came into the area and claimed a bunch of land for themselves. I love me some subjunctive history but Canada would in no way join the "United States" even back then. The only exception was Nova Scotia and the British strong armed them from joining the US.

    Canada was basically where all the northern loyalists fled to which is why Canada till this day, much to its chagrin, still celebrates the Queen's Birthday.
    That and Canada was under a different system of government. As I understand it, they had greater protection against the whims of the Crown.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That and Canada was under a different system of government. As I understand it, they had greater protection against the whims of the Crown.
    Not by much, at the time of the US War of Independence. We had elected governments from the 1750s, but not much in the way of Responsible Government until later.

    Responsible government refers to a government that is responsible to the people. In Canada responsible government is more commonly described as an executive or cabinet that is dependent on the support of an elected assembly, rather than on the Monarch. It originated in Canada in the 1830s and became an important part of Confederation. It’s the method by which Canada achieved independence without revolution.
    http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.c...ble-government
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    .
    I love this stuff! When I was in Albuquerque, I learned that the Portuguese occupied the land which is now New Mexico. Cinco de Mayo is much celebrated in L.A. What the Hispanics are celebrating is their freedom from Mexico!

    Why should anyone have to know anything? - Sheldon Cooper

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    .
    I love this stuff! When I was in Albuquerque, I learned that the Portuguese occupied the land which is now New Mexico. Cinco de Mayo is much celebrated in L.A. What the Hispanics are celebrating is their freedom from Mexico!
    That date is when the Mexicans finally kicked the asses of the French and made their country their own -- it's not freedom "from Mexico", it's freedom from foreigners.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  27. #77
    Oranje rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Again, people seem to forget the fact that I said: "loyalists fled New England and went into New Brunswick". New Brunswick was predominately French before the loyalists came into the area and claimed a bunch of land for themselves. I love me some subjunctive history but Canada would in no way join the "United States" even back then. The only exception was Nova Scotia and the British strong armed them from joining the US.

    Canada was basically where all the northern loyalists fled to which is why Canada till this day, much to its chagrin, still celebrates the Queen's Birthday.
    Hmmmm.

    Funny that a group of us were just discussing last week how much we enjoy the idea that not every one of our holidays is about celebrating something about war.....

  28. #78

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    I find it interesting that the least typical, most distinct and interesting American cities were not established by the English, but rather by other European countries. New York was settled by the Dutch, New Orleans by the French, and San Francisco by the Spanish.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    I find it interesting that the least typical, most distinct and interesting American cities were not established by the English, but rather by other European countries. New York was settled by the Dutch, New Orleans by the French, and San Francisco by the Spanish.
    What about Boston?
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  30. #80

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    New York and San Francisco were tiny spots before they became English speaking. Most importantly, they, and Boston and others, were large natural harbors, which meant that it was inevitable that they would become important and large ports. Their tiny foreign seeds were irrelevant, and not the reason for their growth or distinctiveness. New Orleans, of course, was larger and, thus, more thoroughly French before it became English speaking, and has been able to retain some of its French culture.

  31. #81

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    What about Boston?
    Are you kidding? The bars close at 1:00 in Boston. It was founded by the English, which is why it isn't a particularly distinct, atypical or interesting city.

  32. #82

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    New York and San Francisco were tiny spots before they became English speaking. Most importantly, they, and Boston and others, were large natural harbors, which meant that it was inevitable that they would become important and large ports. Their tiny foreign seeds were irrelevant, and not the reason for their growth or distinctiveness. New Orleans, of course, was larger and, thus, more thoroughly French before it became English speaking, and has been able to retain some of its French culture.
    I'm afraid you are wrong about that. Culturally, the New York metropolitan region is very distinct, and anyone with any knowledge of our history understands it is because of the Dutch influence, which is huge. Of course, the influence of Irish, and later Italian and Jewish immigration also had a huge impact on our politics and culture.

    San Francisco's population may have been small when we stole it from Mexico. Nevertheless, it was founded by the Spaniards, and thereafter was a Mexican city. Whatever the reason for its distinctness, it still was not founded by the English.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    I find it interesting that the least typical, most distinct and interesting American cities were not established by the English, but rather by other European countries. New York was settled by the Dutch, New Orleans by the French, and San Francisco by the Spanish.
    You got a point there mate. Baltimore is boring as fuck.

  34. #84

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    I'm afraid you are wrong about that. Culturally, the New York metropolitan region is very distinct, and anyone with any knowledge of our history understands it is because of the Dutch influence, which is huge. Of course, the influence of Irish, and later Italian and Jewish immigration also had a huge impact on our politics and culture.

    San Francisco's population may have been small when we stole it from Mexico. Nevertheless, it was founded by the Spaniards, and thereafter was a Mexican city. Whatever the reason for its distinctness, it still was not founded by the English.
    You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    I think Philadelphia is a pretty awesome city in its own right, founded by William Penn. Penn was a British subject last time I checked.
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Though slavery was initially banned in the Georgia colony, some slaves were later brought in illicitly. The ban itself was gradually, but formally overturned several decades before the American Revolution. It is noteworthy that after many South Carolina planters relocated into coastal areas of the colony, Georgia’s slave code came to mirror the harsh South Carolina code.

    “Thrasherville” originally grew around the site of Fort Peachtree, which was built during the War of 1812 to help control the Creek Indians, who were allied with the British. The fort was situated south of the river that separated Creek land from Cherokee land to the north.

    The town was later renamed “Terminus” to indicate its position on the newly formed Western & Atlantic Railroad line. This same time period included discovery of gold on the Cherokee land, federal passage of the Indian Removal Act, and the Trail of Tears. As more railroads began servicing the town, it was eventually renamed in recognition of the Western & Atlantic by employing a feminized version of “Atlantic.”

    In Atlanta’s first mayoral election, the Free and Rowdy Party candidate prevailed over the Moral Party candidate. (All 215 voters lived within one mile of the city’s single polling place.)

    Other than slaves and native populations, initial residents to the area consisted primarily of colonial settlers who moved from the Carolinas and Virginia or new arrivals directly from England and Scotland.

  37. #87

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    You are certainly entitled to your opinion.


    Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.
    ― Daniel Patrick Moynihan

  38. #88

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    ― Daniel Patrick Moynihan
    "distinct ....because of the Dutch influence..." is an opinion, not a fact. You need to learn the difference.

  39. #89

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    "distinct ....because of the Dutch influence..." is an opinion, not a fact. You need to learn the difference.
    I'm very aware of the difference between facts and opinions. That New York City is distinct is a fact. The Dutch influence is not the only reason, but a major reason. I suspect most historians and students of New York history would consider it a factual statement to say the Dutch colonial experience shaped New York City and the metro area and that that influence carries forward to this day.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    I think palemale is right on this one. Manhattan's Dutch history was no mere thing but an important component of its identity, along with the eventual British takeover. My own hometown next door in Jersey City also has a substantial Dutch heritage, and your underplaying the Dutch contribution rather dismissively does not do justice to the vibrant, epic history of New York City nor its neighbors with similar Dutch origins and influence.
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    I'm very aware of the difference between facts and opinions. That New York City is distinct is a fact. The Dutch influence is not the only reason, but a major reason. I suspect most historians and students of New York history would consider it a factual statement to say the Dutch colonial experience shaped New York City and the metro area and that that influence carries forward to this day.
    The irony being, the original settlers in MA in were English and despite living in the Netherlands for a decade or so, they were anti-Dutch. Then you wonder where the rivalry started LMAO.

    Check out the clip starting at 4:37...


  42. #92

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Why do you say the a Pilgrims were anti-Dutch?

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Why do you say the a Pilgrims were anti-Dutch?
    They were anti-everyone not like themselves.

    Sound like anyone you know?

  44. #94

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Journalist Colin Woodard wrote a recent article positing that the United States is actually made up of 11 different nations. The smallest nation on his map, geographically, is the New York City Metropolitan Area, which he calls New Netherland. Of course, the description about New York and what makes it distinct is all about our Dutch origins. It's an interesting article and worth a read.

    http://www.tufts.edu/alumni/magazine...p-in-arms.html

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    It is noteworthy that it was an English ship's captain, and explorer Henry Hudson who claimed then New Netherland, for the Dutch way back in 1609.

    By 1664 when the English assumed control of New Netherland half the population was already English, the rest either Dutch, or French Huguenots.

    That the residents of New York city, and state speak a version of the English language, and the United States Constitution has as its inspiration The Magna Carta I suspect that apart from the Bronx family, waffles, and donuts the Dutch influence on New York might well be considered minimal compared with that of the British....apart from all the other ethnic groups settling in that city, and state who have also contributed significantly to the development of New York city, and state.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    That the residents of New York city, and state speak a version of the English language, and the United States Constitution has as its inspiration The Magna Carta I suspect that apart from the Bronx family, waffles, and donuts the Dutch influence on New York might well be considered minimal compared with that of the British....apart from all the other ethnic groups settling in that city, and state who have also contributed significantly to the development of New York city, and state.
    Democracy is not in the Magna Carta, nor is the concept of balanced branches of government a feature of the unwritten British Constitution, which has parliamentary supremacy.

  47. #97

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    Journalist Colin Woodard wrote a recent article positing that the United States is actually made up of 11 different nations. The smallest nation on his map, geographically, is the New York City Metropolitan Area, which he calls New Netherland. Of course, the description about New York and what makes it distinct is all about our Dutch origins. It's an interesting article and worth a read.

    http://www.tufts.edu/alumni/magazine...p-in-arms.html
    It is an unpersuasive series of exaggerations. For example, he asserts that the Midwest area was founded by Quakers. Actually, they were never more than a small minority, and almost non existent in much of the area. The English in the area are of overwhelmingly New England Puritan ancestry. Genealogy has been a lifelong hobby, and it is largely a study of the movement of people. My ancestry is mostly NE Puritan, but with several lines of New Amsterdam Dutch, all moving into the Midwest.
    The Duch influence is apparent in the place names of New York, making it easy to exaggerate the influence. Culturally, the Dutch people assimilated quickly into the larger English-American culture. The Dutch and English cultures were never far apart. Both were Protestant people with a history of Democratc government. The Frisian language from the Netherlands is said to be the closest to English.

  48. #98
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Rye bread, butter, and green cheese.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Democracy is not in the Magna Carta, nor is the concept of balanced branches of government a feature of the unwritten British Constitution, which has parliamentary supremacy.
    I'm not one to obsess....I leave that to others, but it was the English settlerframers of the United States Constitution who drew their inspiration from The Magna Carta, when speaking to the freedoms that were granted by King John...with that other fine English (born, and raised) radical, Thomas Paine not arriving in the colonies until he was 37 years of age, who also drew his inspiration from The Magna Carta and contributing so much to the struggle for the independence of the New England colonies....but, of course you already knew that.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    It is an unpersuasive series of exaggerations. For example, he asserts that the Midwest area was founded by Quakers. Actually, they were never more than a small minority, and almost non existent in much of the area. The English in the area are of overwhelmingly New England Puritan ancestry. Genealogy has been a lifelong hobby, and it is largely a study of the movement of people. My ancestry is mostly NE Puritan, but with several lines of New Amsterdam Dutch, all moving into the Midwest.
    The Duch influence is apparent in the place names of New York, making it easy to exaggerate the influence. Culturally, the Dutch people assimilated quickly into the larger English-American culture. The Dutch and English cultures were never far apart. Both were Protestant people with a history of Democratc government. The Frisian language from the Netherlands is said to be the closest to English.
    Well noted.....for along with English Common Law I'm surprised that Palemale has chosen to place so much emphasis on the Dutch influence in New York State, a small colony that survived some fifty years before the English assumed full control....while also noting that apart from African slaves, the majority of the white European population in New Netherland were English colonists making assimilation by the English crown that much easier.....

    That later migration brought in Middle, and East Europeans, Italians, Irish etc. brings back happy memories of my visits to NYC where the melting pot is a joy to experience.
    Last edited by kallipolis; November 20th, 2013 at 09:33 AM.

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