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    Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)



    I never realised the size of territory claimed by France to be so large. Until I saw this I only thought it had been Quebec and the area around modern-day Louisiana.

    Also interesting to see the NE boundary around Maine and New Hampshire and Vermont to be exactly the same as it's always been.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_France

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    It was the bankrupting of France from wars and revolution that led to the Louisiana purchase in 1803. Who can fathom what they were thinking when the French sold it?

    And of course, typically, it was argued as being an unconstitutional move when Jefferson executed the purchase.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Many rivers, streams, roads still bear French names where I live.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    I'm actually most surprised to see unaffiliated (and "unexplored" as well??) territory covering most of what are now Georgia and Alabama, and the foothills up to far southwest Virginia. I'm also thinking that eventually French ownership went farther west and northwest?

    I'm also rather surprised on how little is shown to be owned by Spain. I thought they had owned Mexico, and much of the southwest to the California coast, etc.

    As for the northern New England border, even that strange tiny western strip of New Brunswick seems to be intact on "top of" Maine.

    YES. It was so easy to look for Louisiana Purchase on the internet...found it in less than a minute. "Look THAT up in your Funk & Wagnells!" All the information that's at one's fingertips now...thirty years ago I would have indeed needed to go to an encyclopedia and look up the map for the Louisiana Purchase.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails louisianapurchase.jpg  
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    ^ Here's a larger version of your map....



    ....along with an alternative I found....



    ....and another alternative....



    ....I'm geography obsessed, don't you know?

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    In all of these maps you will notice Texas has a different color. We were part of 6 nations. Texas, Spain, Mexico, US, France and Confederacy.
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Even without a map you can tell from all of the French place names.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Maine actually wasn't even a state back then. it was an extension of Massachusetts. it was given statehood as a result of the Missouri Compromise in 1820, which was meant to balance power in Congress between the free states and slave states.

    there was also a "war" with Britain/Canada over the state's northern borders which ended up giving the state a few extra miles.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by darden View Post
    Maine actually wasn't even a state back then. it was an extension of Massachusetts. it was given statehood as a result of the Missouri Compromise in 1820, which was meant to balance power in Congress between the free states and slave states.

    there was also a "war" with Britain/Canada over the state's northern borders which ended up giving the state a few extra miles.
    I know the War for Independence covers a lot of ground but the amusing part of New England is that a lot of the loyalists got kicked out of "The Colonies" and fled to New Brunswick which became a British stronghold. That part doesn't really get covered in US history because NB is part of Canada but it is important to note because Nova Scotia during the War of 1812 almost became a US state but the British put up a blockade to prevent them from joining the Union from New Brunswick.

    The amusing part is now, New Brunswick and Maine share a very unique boarder in there is no "clearance" required to traverse said boarder. Believe the Canadian town you are thinking of is Edmundston.

    I also like to joke with Conservatives over "subjunctive history" in that Ted Cruz could have been a US citizen by birth if the Ostend Manifesto went through.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    I have to say that it grieves me that Britain didn't force the issue of retaining the Indiana territories and Ohio.....just think all the people in those areas would have universal health care and homo marriage by now.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    In all of these maps you will notice Texas has a different color. We were part of 6 nations. Texas, Spain, Mexico, US, France and Confederacy.
    Thus the name for the Six Flags theme parks which are now all over the United States, and in the 1990's had a couple Europe locations. The chain originated in Texas, and started with Six Flags Over Texas, which retains that name to this day. The park is in Arlington, in the middle of the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex.

    Most of their Parks retain the name "Six Flags" as a prefix (such as Six Flags Great Adventure in New Jersey), even though mostly located in places which have had fewer than six flags flying over them in history.
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    I have to say that it grieves me that Britain didn't force the issue of retaining the Indiana territories and Ohio.....just think all the people in those areas would have universal health care and homo marriage by now.
    Canadian provinces were invited to the First Continental Congress. Had they participated in the war, the United States would be absolutely enormous and unshakably liberal. Slavery would have also ended much sooner.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by darden View Post
    there was also a "war" with Britain/Canada over the state's northern borders which ended up giving the state a few extra miles.
    Ah, I didn't know about that...interesting, too, that I just now note that the top (and most of) MAINE is cut off on both my picture and the one ChickenGuy posted, though I'm SURE that I remember seeing it there when I posted it???

    maxpowr9, does that mean that Canada Customs is not at the border there, but outside of/"past" Edmundston? I can't imagine being able to go into Canada without inspection. I don't remember anything like that, but it was way back in 1973 that I was there, and it's hard to accurately remember all the details.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    I was always under the impression that there were bunches of places where one could cross the border into Canada without going through customs/security via small towns, but not over any of the major highways.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    ^ Certainly not since 911 when Fortress America was constructed....

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Canadian provinces were invited to the First Continental Congress. Had they participated in the war, the United States would be absolutely enormous and unshakably liberal. Slavery would have also ended much sooner.
    There was never a time when slavery could have been ended without a civil war. Union with Canada would not have changed that.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    France still has a territorial interest just off Canada.

    Saint Pierre and Miquelon (French: Collectivité territoriale de Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon, French pronunciation: ​[sɛ̃ pjɛʁ e mikˈlɔ̃]) is a self-governing territorial overseas collectivity of France, situated in the northwestern Atlantic Ocean near Canada.[1] It is the only remnant of the former colonial empire of New France that remains under French control.[1]

    The islands are situated at the entrance of Fortune Bay, which extends into the southern coast of Newfoundland, near the Grand Banks.[4] They are 3,819 kilometres (2,373 mi) from Brest, the nearest point in Metropolitan France,[5] but just 20 kilometres (12 mi) off the Burin Peninsula of Newfoundland, Canada.[6]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Pierre_and_Miquelon

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by darden View Post
    I was always under the impression that there were bunches of places where one could cross the border into Canada without going through customs/security via small towns, but not over any of the major highways.
    There is. I was just wrong about the location. It was VT.

    Flower power border divides US and Canada

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    maxpowr9, does that mean that Canada Customs is not at the border there, but outside of/"past" Edmundston? I can't imagine being able to go into Canada without inspection. I don't remember anything like that, but it was way back in 1973 that I was there, and it's hard to accurately remember all the details.
    It's just a long, steel bridge with no customs clearance. I didn't go to the American side, but there were no tolls or booths on the Canadian end when I drove by it in 2009. But we're not sticklers for national security in Canada, .
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    There was never a time when slavery could have been ended without a civil war. Union with Canada would not have changed that.
    With Canada in Congress, the South would never have had a voice and slavery probably would have been outlawed in the Constitution.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    With Canada in Congress, the South would never have had a voice and slavery probably would have been outlawed in the Constitution.
    would the South have actually accepted that, though? or rebelled against the Northern states and allied with England?

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by darden View Post
    would the South have actually accepted that, though? or rebelled against the Northern states and allied with England?
    Canada consisted of at least five provinces by 1789, so the South wouldn't have had a choice. Remember at that time the interior was barely settled unlike in 1860. There was nothing substantial west of the Piedmont. No way did the South have the territory, population, or resources to mount such a campaign, and as futile as it was in 1860, it would have been even more so at that time. The Southern colonies very much resented British rule, although to a lesser degree than New England. The British lost the colonies fair and square, so it wouldn't have mattered what they wanted to do after a national government was formed even under the Articles.
    Last edited by Alnitak; November 13th, 2013 at 11:56 AM.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Canada consisted of at least five provinces by 1789, so the South wouldn't have had a choice. Remember at that time the interior was barely settled unlike in 1860. There was nothing substantial west of the Piedmont. No way did the South have the territory, population, or resources to mount such a campaign, and as futile as it was in 1860, it would have been even more so at that time. The Southern colonies very much resented British rule, although to a lesser degree than New England. The British lost the colonies fair and square, so it wouldn't have mattered what they wanted to do after a national government was formed even under the Articles.
    What if the Canadians were counted only as 3/5ths persons?

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    What if the Canadians were counted only as 3/5ths persons?
    the funny thing about the 3/5ths compromise is that it was the southern states pushing for their slaves to count as full persons for the purpose of congressional delegate allocation (the northern states didn't want them counted whatsoever)

    I guess it would have been fair turnabout for the Southerns to push for only counting Canadians are partial people too

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Wait, Canadians are people?! O.o
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by darden View Post
    the funny thing about the 3/5ths compromise is that it was the southern states pushing for their slaves to count as full persons for the purpose of congressional delegate allocation (the northern states didn't want them counted whatsoever)

    I guess it would have been fair turnabout for the Southerns to push for only counting Canadians are partial people too
    They might not have approved if slavery in the North but they were very much racist as was Lincoln.

  27. #27

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    With Canada in Congress, the South would never have had a voice and slavery probably would have been outlawed in the Constitution.
    Wrong. The states preexisted the Constitution. They formed the Federal government. The Southern states would not have ratified the Constitution or joined the Union if it had freed the slaves. Any attempt to coerce them would have been a civil war.
    Last edited by Benvolio; November 13th, 2013 at 01:15 PM.

  28. #28

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by darden View Post
    the funny thing about the 3/5ths compromise is that it was the southern states pushing for their slaves to count as full persons for the purpose of congressional delegate allocation (the northern states didn't want them counted whatsoever)

    I guess it would have been fair turnabout for the Southerns to push for only counting Canadians are partial people too
    The North did not want to count slaves, since the Southern states did not allow them to vote. The 3/5 count was a compromise.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Wrong. The states preexisted the Constitution. They formed the Federal government. The Southern states would not have ratified the Constitution or joined the Union if it had freed the slaves. Any attempt to coerce them would have been a civil war.
    Wrong. The states agreed to belong to a national government when they signed the Articles of Confederation. If Canada had joined the United States and ratified the Constitution, the South would have had no choice.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    The Constitution supplanted the Articles of Confederation though. it was so that there would be a federal union under the Constitution that the slavery question got kicked down the road.
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    The states did not have to join the union or ratify the Constitution. They would not have accepted any attempt to force them to end slavery. It would have taken physical force, I.e., a civil war.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Interesting how the Europeans chopped up native lands LOL


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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    France still has a territorial interest just off Canada.
    We were gonna kick the crap out of them, but said 'Excuse me, We're sorry' instead.

    The best one was when Turks and Caicos have wanted to join Canada.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    Interesting how the Europeans chopped up native lands LOL
    Mostly the British suck at topography. You can blame them for Kashmir and a few other quandaries [I think the Balkan states as well].

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Mostly the British suck at topography. You can blame them for Kashmir and a few other quandaries [I think the Balkan states as well].
    along with most of the problems in the Middle East

    sometimes I wish there was a way that we could sit all the major leaders down and allow them to redraw their own borders along cultural/geographic lines.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    They might not have approved if slavery in the North but they were very much racist as was Lincoln.
    First off slavery was pretty important to a lot of Northern interests - who do you think owned the shipping? Slavery was legal in the North until 1820.

    If Canada was part of the 1789 union that would not have driven the South into silence or impotence of any kind - it's silly to say such a thing.
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    Interesting how the Europeans chopped up native lands LOL
    I was going to mention that all those political partitions didn't mention a single tribe, but then figured it was pointless. This thread is basically a contest of who stole the most.
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    First off slavery was pretty important to a lot of Northern interests - who do you think owned the shipping? Slavery was legal in the North until 1820.

    If Canada was part of the 1789 union that would not have driven the South into silence or impotence of any kind - it's silly to say such a thing.
    I didn't say silence, but I did say impotence. The reason they held slavery out so long was its share of Congress, and when that changed in the 1850s the shit hit the fan.

  39. #39

    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    I didn't say silence, but I did say impotence. The reason they held slavery out so long was its share of Congress, and when that changed in the 1850s the shit hit the fan.
    There was never a time when the South would not have left the union,if necessary to keep slavery, resulting in civil war or peaceful separation.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    I didn't say silence, but I did say impotence. The reason they held slavery out so long was its share of Congress, and when that changed in the 1850s the shit hit the fan.
    The South held onto slavery for so long because of money. The entire economy of the South was based in slavery. There would have been nothing Canada could have done about that, there was nothing the North could have done about it, and as shocking as it may be, Benvolio is right, there was no way the South was giving it up without a fight, NO way.

    If losing that war was what had to happen to rid us of that abomination, then it was a war well lost - it was also the war everyone saw coming, and that's why there were so many attempts at compromises that legally enforced slavery.
    Last edited by TX-Beau; November 13th, 2013 at 04:22 PM.
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    I have to say that it grieves me that Britain didn't force the issue of retaining the Indiana territories and Ohio.....just think all the people in those areas would have universal health care and homo marriage by now.
    Would Michigan also be part of Canada, now, if this had happened? And I was born in Michigan. I COULD HAVE BEEN BORN CANADIAN, but I wasn't. Dammit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Wait, Canadians are people?! O.o
    Yes, but they're mutants. On South Park, the entire top of their heads become disconnected when they talk, unlike the Americans whose heads stay intact with a moving mouth.

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    The South held onto slavery for so long because of money. The entire economy of the South was based in slavery.

    as shocking as it may be, Benvolio is right, there was no way the South was giving it up without a fight
    Slavery isn't a racial thing, as much as the fact that those brought into slavery were mostly "unaffiliated" with any nation-state or colony.
    Europeans had confined themselves to trading mainly along the coast. Inland the trade in slaves and commodities was handled by African and Arab merchants.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/af...ection11.shtml
    Therefore there were few or no Parliaments, or congresses, Presidents, Kings, bureaucracies, etc. to deal with in the areas where slaves came from - allowing the slavery nations such as the United States (and others) to go there and easily "harvest" people as though they were crops, and take them across the Atlantic.

    It was the most convenient way to find slaves, because Africa was relatively close, and the populations were large. South America had already been largely colonised, therefore not many places where there were "unaffiliated" people who could simply be herded without accountability. Likewise with Asia (and of course Europe), there were very few areas which didn't fall under some sort of national or extra-national jurisdiction. Africa was the only major part of the world which was largely not ruled by nations, neither locally nor from offshore (i.e. colonial rule).

    Therefore, it's merely a historical and geographical "accident" that international slave trade involved Black people; if the world had developed differently it could have instead been people from what is now called Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh...or Venezuela...or...

    I also don't think there was a large enough population density in South America that would have been "suitable for harvest" anyway, if the area had still been largely under local/tribal rule as in Africa.

    And even if there had been a lot of "unaffiliated" people (subjects of no nation) available for harvest in southern or eastern Asia, shipping would have been very difficult if even sustainable at all. Remember there was no Panama Canal, no Suez Canal, and the United States did not yet have transcontinental railroads to easily bring hordes of manpower via the West Coast yet - let alone that the United States didn't even own the west until the 1800's.

    Of course, if there had been a large pool of potential slaves in Central or South America that were not claimed by any nation, rather than Spain and Portugal already claiming nearly everywhere and everybody there, slavery in the United States could have just as easily been aboriginal people instead of Black. Indeed early colonisation was more robust in the tropics than in what would become the United States, which I think was regarded mostly a "backwater" by Spain, etc.

    Accident or not, the history of slavery is every bit as real and stark as anything can possibly be. And the models of slavery in the U. S. only imitated the previous histories of slavery elsewhere, which goes back through all of recorded history, and probably earlier.
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    The South held onto slavery for so long because of money. The entire economy of the South was based in slavery. There would have been nothing Canada could have done about that, there was nothing the North could have done about it, and as shocking as it may be, Benvolio is right, there was no way the South was giving it up without a fight, NO way.

    If losing that war was what had to happen to rid us of that abomination, then it was a war well lost - it was also the war everyone saw coming, and that's why there were so many attempts at compromises that legally enforced slavery.
    It doesn't matter what reason, without the votes in congress you don't get what you want.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    I'm a little bit into history so I am finding this thread interesting.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    It doesn't matter what reason, without the votes in congress you don't get what you want.
    So the fuck what? There was no United States in 1789, there was no congress, and if:

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnitak View Post
    Wrong. The states agreed to belong to a national government when they signed the Articles of Confederation. If Canada had joined the United States and ratified the Constitution, the South would have had no choice.
    (emphasis mine)

    Canada had participated in the constitutional convention and IF they insisted that abolition of slavery be part of the constitution (HUGE assumption on your part) The South very definitively would have had a choice, they would simply not have signed - and there would have been fuck all Canada could have done about it. In case you've forgotten, the reason the Articles of Confederation didn't work was because the central government was a bad joke that couldn't even pay it's own bills, let alone force anyone to do anything. Canada and the "North" according to your assumption would have outlawed slavery in the new constitution, the south would have walked, and the history of the US would be entirely different.

    In NO event does the inclusion of Canada to anything force anyone to do anything else. Period.

    What you've asserted is a lot of supposition based on your modern interpretation of political context and understanding, that bears little resemblance to what was going on 2 centuries ago.
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    So the fuck what? There was no United States in 1789, there was no congress,
    There was, the House first reached a quorum on April 1, 1789, and actually there were three in the prior two years,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congre..._confederation
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa...nal_Convention
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Un...tates_Congress

    but ok... before your shout and curse you might want to fact check

    and it could have happened any time between then and 1863.

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post

    In NO event does the inclusion of Canada to anything force anyone to do anything else. Period.
    Well you're wrong because it takes a voting majority in Congress to effect the law. That was true in 1789, and it's true now. With Canada, the votes would have been there to outlaw slavery before the Civil War.

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    The South very definitively would have had a choice, they would simply not have signed -
    Wrong again, the Constitution went into effect in 1788 with the signatures of nine states. Rhode Island didn't even ratify it until 1790 but were still bound by the laws passed by the 1st Congress.
    Last edited by Alnitak; November 14th, 2013 at 03:19 PM.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Oh please, you asserted that Canada and the North would have included abolition of slavery in the Constitution which would have "forced" the South to give it up - which is silly, because the South never would have signed any such document.

    All the rest if that is you trying to recover from a silly premise.
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Oh please, you asserted that Canada and the North would have included abolition of slavery in the Constitution which would have "forced" the South to give it up - which is silly, because the South never would have signed any such document.
    Again, the Constitution went into effect without the signatures of four states, Rhode Island being one of them.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Silly is silly no matter how much you try to nitpick.
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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Silly is silly no matter how much you try to nitpick.
    Except you just said the Southern states couldn't be forced into the Constitution, when four states actually were.

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    Re: Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

    IF all the South had decided to go it's own way no Union.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Or do you think that New England was going to go to war to stop them in 1789?

    Please.
    Last edited by TX-Beau; November 14th, 2013 at 03:32 PM.
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