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  1. #1
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    Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    This is something that has been fermenting in my mind for quite a while. I ran into an article that puts my thoughts into words quite well:

    No principled reason can be given for the distinction the Christian Right draws between harnessing the state to pursue social objectives and harnessing it to pursue economic objectives. It is a uniquely American distinction as far as Christian politicking goes. What the distinction reveals is that so-called values voters are just a particular flavor of right-wing political culture, one that opts for Christian language and rhetoric when communicating its message. But in that case, it is their freestanding political commitments that inform their Christianity, not the other way around.

    The answer to this riddle is therefore not so mysterious. Although nominally interested in harnessing the state to pursue Christian social objectives, the American Christian Right is not detached from the culture it has developed within. Their politics is not one that is Christian in origin; rather, it originates from the same place all other right-wing politics originates, but mobilizes Christian rhetoric and meanings post-hoc to justify its goals.
    I know most here aren't Christians, but it seems that the right-wing 'evangelicals' who exclaim about signs of the end, themselves qualify as perhaps the greatest sign: the New Testament prophesies that "the love of many will grow cold" and foretells that many will have the form of religion but not its substance.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  2. #2
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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    I came to a permanent conclusion during the Reagan-Falwell marriage from hell when the right wing religious people made an impact on my life and the lives of everyone around me.

    My conclusion...they ceased to worship or believe in God and instead have decided to BECOME GOD...so instead of one fallen angel (and we all know how that turned out)...we have millions of them. I stand by my conclusion.

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    They're scared and angry. They see the world around them moving forward. Happy, healthy, loving people living lives free of their pathological mental illness. They can't understand it, and they can't stop it, and it drives them crazy.

  4. #4
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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Like the person above me, I also believe that the religious right are mentally-ill. They are so consumed by religious fervour that they are incapable of thinking like normal, rational human-beings. Their lives are dictated to by ancient scriptures that have no relevance to the modern world and make no sense in the modern world either. Personally, I think that they should be sent to deprogramming facilities, where they should be re-educated and liberated from the shackles of religious fundamentalism.
    Last edited by Special K; October 19th, 2013 at 07:15 AM.

  5. #5
    Dejavudoo
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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    If we evolve beyond the religious culture wars, we will see similar schisms in society for every other reason. It is the nature of large populations to be divided without some unifying force like militarism.

    I disagree with most of the values of the Christian Right, but it is too easy to be simply dismissive of their entire belief "system" and call them apostates or hypocrites. When examining the contradictions that are inherent in most people, we could quickly dismiss them as being "liberal" or "green" or "vegetarian" or many other labels we adopt but do not adhere to strictly.

    I'm often disappointed to encounter young people around me who talk about recycling but don't do it. I've repeatedly sublet rooms in my home to young guys and they often ask about if I recycle, but then they don't. I don't assume that they aren't sincere, but that they aren't consistent.

    When it comes to something as complex as Christianity and its contradictory teaching from the Old and New Testaments (and dogma), it is no surprise that populations have ignored the parts that they don't want.

    I have a few Jewish friends here that are strict about kosher when at home or in their synagogue, but readily eat shrimp or cheeseburgers when out. I don't think they aren't really Jewish, but simply flawed like the rest of us.

  6. #6
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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Special K View Post
    Like the person above me, I also believe that the religious right are mentally-ill. They are so consumed by religious fervour that they are incapable of thinking like normal, rational human-beings. Their lives are dictated to by ancient scriptures that have no relevance to the modern world and make no sense in the modern world either. Personally, I think that they should be sent to deprogramming facilities, where they should be re-educated and liberated from the shackles of religious fundamentalism.
    But that misses the point of the writer, and mine: that they in fact aren't driven by those scriptures, but rather by political and ideological urges/beliefs, and they merely invoke certain select parts of the scriptures to support their agenda. If they were really driven by the scriptures, they'd fight for all of it -- including care for the poor and elderly and sick and homeless and orphans, because those are as much a part of the message (in reality, more) as any of their political agenda.

    The problem isn't that they are driven by anything thousands of years old, the problem is that they aren't.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  7. #7

    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Or just culturally Jewish. I'm culturally catholic and goes to church every Sunday. And it is no secret that I hate religion.

  8. #8
    Dejavudoo
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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    No, they are religiously Jewish. They are just not consistently so. My point is not anti-Semitic, but that most people are inconsistent to varying degree, religious or not.

  9. #9
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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    The problem is they have forgotten the intent of the scriptures, the meat of the message if you will, and have gotten caught up in the letter of the law.
    It's never too early in the year,
    to spread some goodwill cheer!

  10. #10
    Dejavudoo
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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    But that misses the point of the writer, and mine: that they in fact aren't driven by those scriptures, but rather by political and ideological urges/beliefs, and they merely invoke certain select parts of the scriptures to support their agenda. If they were really driven by the scriptures, they'd fight for all of it -- including care for the poor and elderly and sick and homeless and orphans, because those are as much a part of the message (in reality, more) as any of their political agenda.

    The problem isn't that they are driven by anything thousands of years old, the problem is that they aren't.
    No, it doesn't really. It is an outsider's reduction and observation. If it were a provable point, it would be debated against a member of the Religious Right and he would defend his beliefs and practices. As it is, it is an unfair assertion to argue the point in absence of the other side of the question. It is facile to make a unilateral attack against a position that has no defender.

  11. #11
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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    The Europeans and the not so religious countries never use "god" for political reasons.
    Only the US and Islamic countries use god for politics, just curious.


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

  12. #12
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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie Boy View Post
    The problem is they have forgotten the intent of the scriptures, the meat of the message if you will, and have gotten caught up in the letter of the law.
    If they understood the scriptures, they wouldn't have time for law.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  13. #13
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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    No, it doesn't really. It is an outsider's reduction and observation. If it were a provable point, it would be debated against a member of the Religious Right and he would defend his beliefs and practices. As it is, it is an unfair assertion to argue the point in absence of the other side of the question. It is facile to make a unilateral attack against a position that has no defender.
    There is no "absence of the other side" -- their position is abundantly available in public statements. The fact that they insist that government conform to Old Testament rules and never, ever mention including -- indeed, they oppose! -- any of the principles of the New Testament.

    And there is no defense of that!

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  14. #14
    Dejavudoo
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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    You cannot argue their side and undefine their beliefs. Just because you see their position as inimical to Christianity doesn't mean that they could not sufficiently argue that it IS consistent.

    In a debate, you cannot play prosecutor and judge simultaneously.

    You have chosen certain hallmarks or key attributes as essential whereas they see it differently.

    You allege they aren't -- they contend they are. He said, she said.
    Last edited by Dejavudoo; October 19th, 2013 at 07:25 PM.

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    You cannot argue their side and undefine their beliefs. Just because you see their position as inimical to Christianity doesn't mean that they could not sufficiently argue that it IS consistent.

    In a debate, you cannot play prosecutor and judge simultaneously.

    You have chosen certain hallmarks or key attributes as essential whereas they see it differently.

    You allege they aren't -- they contend they are. He said, she said.
    No. For starters, one merely need ask what Jesus said. He never mentioned abortion, He never mentioned homosexuality -- their two big items -- but He did say to care for the poor and the sick. So by the record, they fail.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  16. #16
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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    I won't argue for them, but you exemplify exactly what I stated. You allege they somehow are not looking after the poor. In every city in which I have lived, they are right there in the food banks and homeless shelters and Habitat for Humanity.

    Baptists are certainly evangelicals, and Baptist health care and hospitals were major providers in Arkansas.

    Again, you say black, and they say white. Nothing proven -- just you indulging your opinion in absence of them to answer. Not a great method of intellectual attack.

    As you know, Christianity is much more based on St. Paul's writings than it is Jesus' words.
    Last edited by Dejavudoo; October 19th, 2013 at 07:39 PM.

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Numb nuts.

  18. #18
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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    I won't argue for them, but you exemplify exactly what I stated. You allege they somehow are not looking after the poor. In every city in which I have lived, they are right there in the food banks and homeless shelters and Habitat for Humanity.

    Baptists are certainly evangelicals, and Baptist health care and hospitals were major providers in Arkansas.

    Again, you say black, and they say white. Nothing proven -- just you indulging your opinion in absence of them to answer. Not a great method of intellectual attack.

    As you know, Christianity is much more based on St. Paul's writings than it is Jesus' words.
    Then you agree with the article's thesis: they are hypocritically inconsistent. They want to do some of what they believe is Christianity's mission, but use the government to FORCE everyone to conform to other ideas. And where they want to apply government coercion is places where they feel superior (or else they wouldn't be so hateful and cruel), but where they don't care are the areas where people would actually be helped.

    And again, their position is on record. Analyzing it isn't "indulging your opinion in absence of them to answer"... its called objective critique.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  19. #19
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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    You don't believe your critique is objective -- you simply believe you are right. There is almost nothing about religion that is objective. You and the article's author selectively choose position that irk you and then build a proof that satisfies your desire to see the evangelicals outed as the modern-day brood of vipers.

    People the world over do the thing you are doing, claiming the other sects within their faith are apostate.

    I categorically do not agree with the article's thesis, as it is built on the foundation that there are "real Christians" and imposters. That sort of thinking was anathema to me in my youth when I first encountered it, and it is now. It is too convenient to be able to dismiss entire populations of people with whom we disagree.

    To be fair, the early Christians continued a pattern that was already present in Judaism. I believe it is a fundamental characteristic of humans and belief systems, both sacred and secular.

    All humans are a jumble of things they want to be and things they actually are. Suggesting that only our opponents are hypocrites or inconsistent sets up a false dichotomy. We are all broken. We are all fallen from the ideal. We are all on the road on our journey. Grace is not apportioned to our favorites alone.

    Lopping off the evangelicals is not going to be enough if you are going to require everything to be found in Jesus' words or not. There will be no church buildings, no paid pastors, no conscientious objectors, no tax revolts, no Christian millionaires, and a host of other things that have evolved into the Church over 2,000 years. The evangelicals are hardly standouts in a long line of deviant sects.

    Forgiveness isn't reserved for those we like alone. We don't have to agree with the politics of the Religious Right in order to afford them the same grace we champion for drug addict, whore, and realtor.

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Kulindahr is talking about the political expression of "Christians" via the religious right. He's not talking about the universal institution or teachings of Christianity itself.

    I have no problem saying that people who proclaim that their political vote is dictated around their "moral Christian beliefs" when nothing about that vote reflects compassion for the poor, sick or needy are fake Christians. I would be hard pressed to think of any religious belief of Christianity reflected in the religious right's political platform beyond abortion and opposing gay marriage... despite the 300-some mentions of poverty in the Bible.

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    It's legitimate for Christians to speak in favour of laws that permit them to live according to their faith. In many cases it may even be reasonable to grant those laws, since many parts of religion are not mired in inherent conflict with the human rights and principles of dignity and equality embodied in the law.

    It is entirely unacceptable for them to speak in favour of laws that oblige others to live according to their faith. That's the way it is. Theocrats don't like it, but they've lost the argument, and where need be over the centuries, they've lost the wars. Once people appreciate those are the rules, there isn't much to justify the "Christian Right" at all. If the "Right" is a legitimate political camp, whether it is Christian or not will have little to do with it. And if they have a particular take on Christianity, for better or for worse, it shouldn't really matter to any of us outside the doors of their churches, because we will all be enjoying our freedoms.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  22. #22
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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    You don't believe your critique is objective -- you simply believe you are right. There is almost nothing about religion that is objective. You and the article's author selectively choose position that irk you and then build a proof that satisfies your desire to see the evangelicals outed as the modern-day brood of vipers.
    It's certainly objective. I employ the same analysis here I would in examining any set of teaching and those who claim to follow it -- for example, a student's work in a lab write-up compared to what the book says about doing lab write-ups. It has nothing to do with picking a position, it has to do with looking at the data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    People the world over do the thing you are doing, claiming the other sects within their faith are apostate.
    "Apostate"? I never made any such claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    I categorically do not agree with the article's thesis, as it is built on the foundation that there are "real Christians" and imposters. That sort of thinking was anathema to me in my youth when I first encountered it, and it is now. It is too convenient to be able to dismiss entire populations of people with whom we disagree.
    But you gave data that support his thesis, while not disputing the facts he presented. The data are what are important, and yours supported his point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    To be fair, the early Christians continued a pattern that was already present in Judaism. I believe it is a fundamental characteristic of humans and belief systems, both sacred and secular.
    You mean hypocrisy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    All humans are a jumble of things they want to be and things they actually are. Suggesting that only our opponents are hypocrites or inconsistent sets up a false dichotomy. We are all broken. We are all fallen from the ideal. We are all on the road on our journey. Grace is not apportioned to our favorites alone.
    When someone deliberately chooses to follow that which their source says is not a standard, and then employs force to require others who do not believe to conform, while ignoring the teachings that are set as a standard, that is hypocrisy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    Lopping off the evangelicals is not going to be enough if you are going to require everything to be found in Jesus' words or not. There will be no church buildings, no paid pastors, no conscientious objectors, no tax revolts, no Christian millionaires, and a host of other things that have evolved into the Church over 2,000 years. The evangelicals are hardly standouts in a long line of deviant sects.
    Then extend the measure to the entire New Testament -- they still have no foundation for employing coercion to gain conformity in behavior that oppresses others while neglecting everything that benefits others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    Forgiveness isn't reserved for those we like alone. We don't have to agree with the politics of the Religious Right in order to afford them the same grace we champion for drug addict, whore, and realtor.
    And we are to assess them by the same standard: their faithfulness to the scriptures, and their consistency in following them.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; October 19th, 2013 at 09:32 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  23. #23
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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Kulindahr is talking about the political expression of "Christians" via the religious right. He's not talking about the universal institution or teachings of Christianity itself.

    I have no problem saying that people who proclaim that their political vote is dictated around their "moral Christian beliefs" when nothing about that vote reflects compassion for the poor, sick or needy are fake Christians. I would be hard pressed to think of any religious belief of Christianity reflected in the religious right's political platform beyond abortion and opposing gay marriage... despite the 300-some mentions of poverty in the Bible.
    Exactly. Actually, I'm not even examining whether their claims about what Christianity teaches is true or not, only their consistency in applying what they claim to believe. Yes, they're wrong about what it teaches, but that's not essential to the author;s point or mine.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    It's legitimate for Christians to speak in favour of laws that permit them to live according to their faith. In many cases it may even be reasonable to grant those laws, since many parts of religion are not mired in inherent conflict with the human rights and principles of dignity and equality embodied in the law.

    It is entirely unacceptable for them to speak in favour of laws that oblige others to live according to their faith. That's the way it is. Theocrats don't like it, but they've lost the argument, and where need be over the centuries, they've lost the wars. Once people appreciate those are the rules, there isn't much to justify the "Christian Right" at all. If the "Right" is a legitimate political camp, whether it is Christian or not will have little to do with it. And if they have a particular take on Christianity, for better or for worse, it shouldn't really matter to any of us outside the doors of their churches, because we will all be enjoying our freedoms.
    This is also true. But the real point is that they're inconsistent in applying what they say is their faith. They want to employ force to make others conform to certain behaviors, but fight against the same use of force to make others conform to other behaviors.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  25. #25
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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Well if a different understanding of Christianity helps them better understand the rule of law, then great. The main problem is that they don't recognise why it shouldn't matter. That isn't a failing as a Christian, that is a failing as a citizen. (Well it may incidentally be a failing as a Christian but I do think it is incidental.)

    I do agree that for most people on the "Christian Right," their appreciation of theology probably runs no deeper that their appreciation of government policy. And that it is more of a lifestyle than a faith. God and guns vs. government and gays. The four corners of their world.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    It is entirely unacceptable for them to speak in favour of laws that oblige others to live according to their faith. That's the way it is. Theocrats don't like it, but they've lost the argument, and where need be over the centuries, they've lost the wars. Once people appreciate those are the rules, there isn't much to justify the "Christian Right" at all. If the "Right" is a legitimate political camp, whether it is Christian or not will have little to do with it. And if they have a particular take on Christianity, for better or for worse, it shouldn't really matter to any of us outside the doors of their churches, because we will all be enjoying our freedoms.
    I could not have said it better myself. My own personal mindset falls in line with what Kulindahr is saying - except having been originally from a small country town that basically embodies what the Christian Right is about, I take it a bit further >> I basically view them as having a pseudo-killer bee mentality - if you aren't like us, if you don't believe like us, then we see you as a threat that must be dealt with.

    The view from here and the way it looks, at least to me, is that with much of the Christian Right, it isn't even "My way or the highway" anymore. More like, "My way, and that's the way it's going to be for everyone from now on..." If you'll stop and pay attention, you'll see and have already seen prime examples of what I'm talking about, especially, when anything pertaining to same-sex marriage or homosexuality comes up. Especially back in the early 2000s, when we saw all of the state-level constitutional bans on marriage equality. Notice how the Christian Right always tries to frame the argument as "protecting the sanctity of marriage". But yet and still, have of all straight marriages end in divorce in this country. Either they're blind, or willfully ignorant of this. It demonstrates a complete and fundamental lack of understanding that times have changed, and that this isn't the Leave It To Beaver Era anymore, no matter how much the Christian Right tries to make it.

    But the main problem is - they have...almost with a totalitarian spirit (and this is why I refer to the pseudo-killer bee mentality)...they have used the democracy itself, and the official laws that govern this democracy as viable tools to enforce their belief system and morals upon the populace. It is a usurpation of power and authority to put laws and rules on the books to say, "We as Christians do not want two people of the same gender to be able to marry each other," even though that marriage will not directly affect their lives in the least. ...or to say, "We as Christians do not want a pregnant woman to be able to have an abortion for any reason," even though it will not directly affect their lives in the least.

    They only want two things - power and control.

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    ^
    Yes. It's the spirit of Puritanism, that left behind oppression in England so they could come to America...

    ... and implement their own repression of anything not Puritan, by being the government. That's actually a heresy, referred to as "Caesaropapism", because the popes taking on secular authority over kings and everything is the supreme example. It throws out Jesus' words about keeping Caesar and God in their own realms.

    But (again) the point here is that they're quite inconsistent with it: they choose certain things to impose on government to make it "Christian", but utterly ignore other parts. If they want the government to be Christian, they should go all the way.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    ^
    Yes. It's the spirit of Puritanism, that left behind oppression in England so they could come to America...

    ... and implement their own repression of anything not Puritan, by being the government. That's actually a heresy, referred to as "Caesaropapism", because the popes taking on secular authority over kings and everything is the supreme example. It throws out Jesus' words about keeping Caesar and God in their own realms.

    But (again) the point here is that they're quite inconsistent with it: they choose certain things to impose on government to make it "Christian", but utterly ignore other parts. If they want the government to be Christian, they should go all the way.
    I believe the reason for the inconsistency is that if one were to make them (the Christian Right) put up or shut up, so to speak, and actually turn this nation into the total theocracy they dream about, either they would willfully fold like a cheap card table, or the general public would force them to fold. Either way, they lose.

    Imagine if say on alcoholic beverages, for example... Here in Texas, because of the Blue Laws (which were meant to prevent business from being transacted on a Sunday - the thinking that everyone should be in church, not out shopping) you can't buy any alcoholic beverages until after 11am in the morning. For people like me (working overnights to where the morning is actually our evening, and are not Christian), this literally means that on Sundays, I literally cannot go responsibly enjoy an alcoholic adult beverage when I get off work. In California, you can buy any adult drink you want around the clock, morning, noon, or night. But because of the Christian Right, who keep Blue Laws on the books, I am deprived of the liberty of enjoying an adult beverage at a restaurant or the ability to buy one from a place of business that sells adult beverages for off-premises consumption.

    So we, who work overnight, and are not Christian/religious/etc. now have this law imposed upon us by Christian fundamentalists who now dictate to the rest of us, when we can buy alcohol and when we can't.

    Now, I myself actually once in a blue moon have **a** drink, so I'm not a huge drinker. But I do work in a place of business that sells adult beverages for off-premises consumption. There is actually a running joke amongst alcohol-buying customers in this state that they put the 11am rule in place so that the preachers can go out and get a drink, too.

    Now, this is just but one example I put forth where even though they (the Christian Right) don't partake in the particular activity themselves (in this case, buying alcohol), but they want to regulate it for everyone who does, even though those other people don't directly affect their lives in the least.

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by jdcnow View Post
    I believe the reason for the inconsistency is that if one were to make them (the Christian Right) put up or shut up, so to speak, and actually turn this nation into the total theocracy they dream about, either they would willfully fold like a cheap card table, or the general public would force them to fold. Either way, they lose.

    Imagine if say on alcoholic beverages, for example... Here in Texas, because of the Blue Laws (which were meant to prevent business from being transacted on a Sunday - the thinking that everyone should be in church, not out shopping) you can't buy any alcoholic beverages until after 11am in the morning. For people like me (working overnights to where the morning is actually our evening, and are not Christian), this literally means that on Sundays, I literally cannot go responsibly enjoy an alcoholic adult beverage when I get off work. In California, you can buy any adult drink you want around the clock, morning, noon, or night. But because of the Christian Right, who keep Blue Laws on the books, I am deprived of the liberty of enjoying an adult beverage at a restaurant or the ability to buy one from a place of business that sells adult beverages for off-premises consumption.

    So we, who work overnight, and are not Christian/religious/etc. now have this law imposed upon us by Christian fundamentalists who now dictate to the rest of us, when we can buy alcohol and when we can't.

    Now, I myself actually once in a blue moon have **a** drink, so I'm not a huge drinker. But I do work in a place of business that sells adult beverages for off-premises consumption. There is actually a running joke amongst alcohol-buying customers in this state that they put the 11am rule in place so that the preachers can go out and get a drink, too.

    Now, this is just but one example I put forth where even though they (the Christian Right) don't partake in the particular activity themselves (in this case, buying alcohol), but they want to regulate it for everyone who does, even though those other people don't directly affect their lives in the least.
    That's exactly what Jesus meant when He spoke of the Pharisees imposing burdens on others but not exerting themselves at all. Not drinking alcohol comes naturally to those who grow up in most 'evangelical' churches, so it's no effort for them, but they want to impose their ways on others as well.

    In my view, that proves they are not evangelicals at all, since -- as Paul says -- the Gospel is about freedom, not about rules, and besides, Jesus and Paul both make it clear that following rules does not bring righteousness.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    I won't argue for them, but you exemplify exactly what I stated. You allege they somehow are not looking after the poor. In every city in which I have lived, they are right there in the food banks and homeless shelters and Habitat for Humanity.

    Baptists are certainly evangelicals, and Baptist health care and hospitals were major providers in Arkansas.

    Again, you say black, and they say white. Nothing proven -- just you indulging your opinion in absence of them to answer. Not a great method of intellectual attack.

    As you know, Christianity is much more based on St. Paul's writings than it is Jesus' words.
    The last part is not true at all. Catholics loathe Paul's epistles. Even in theology classes at Catholic school, you spent a lot more talking about the prophets and Jesus' fulfillment of the Covenant in the Gospels. You glance over "Paul's journey" and the rest of the New Testament.

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    The last part is not true at all. Catholics loathe Paul's epistles. Even in theology classes at Catholic school, you spent a lot more talking about the prophets and Jesus' fulfillment of the Covenant in the Gospels. You glance over "Paul's journey" and the rest of the New Testament.
    That's a change that came after Vatican II. Pauline theology was much more adaptable to the Aristotelian mode of thought that is Rome's true foundation. If Jesus' own words had been at the core, the Church would have been a lot different -- if nothing else, Aquinas would never have been sainted.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    ^Well, see the new Pope now. That was kind of "Catholic Social Teaching" we had in high school.

    If you want to look where "other Christians" lost their way, read Bonhoeffer's The Cost of Discipleship. That book is required reading in most Catholic schools and if you read it or even look up quotes from it, you'll see why.

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    ^Well, see the new Pope now. That was kind of "Catholic Social Teaching" we had in high school.

    If you want to look where "other Christians" lost their way, read Bonhoeffer's The Cost of Discipleship. That book is required reading in most Catholic schools and if you read it or even look up quotes from it, you'll see why.
    Read it three times.

    This brings back a memory of meeting a Dominican monk who had read it and was chastising a Lutheran pastor for not doing so.....

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by jdcnow View Post
    I believe the reason for the inconsistency is that if one were to make them (the Christian Right) put up or shut up, so to speak, and actually turn this nation into the total theocracy they dream about, either they would willfully fold like a cheap card table, or the general public would force them to fold. Either way, they lose.

    Imagine if say on alcoholic beverages, for example... Here in Texas, because of the Blue Laws (which were meant to prevent business from being transacted on a Sunday - the thinking that everyone should be in church, not out shopping) you can't buy any alcoholic beverages until after 11am in the morning. For people like me (working overnights to where the morning is actually our evening, and are not Christian), this literally means that on Sundays, I literally cannot go responsibly enjoy an alcoholic adult beverage when I get off work. In California, you can buy any adult drink you want around the clock, morning, noon, or night. But because of the Christian Right, who keep Blue Laws on the books, I am deprived of the liberty of enjoying an adult beverage at a restaurant or the ability to buy one from a place of business that sells adult beverages for off-premises consumption.

    So we, who work overnight, and are not Christian/religious/etc. now have this law imposed upon us by Christian fundamentalists who now dictate to the rest of us, when we can buy alcohol and when we can't.

    Now, I myself actually once in a blue moon have **a** drink, so I'm not a huge drinker. But I do work in a place of business that sells adult beverages for off-premises consumption. There is actually a running joke amongst alcohol-buying customers in this state that they put the 11am rule in place so that the preachers can go out and get a drink, too.

    Now, this is just but one example I put forth where even though they (the Christian Right) don't partake in the particular activity themselves (in this case, buying alcohol), but they want to regulate it for everyone who does, even though those other people don't directly affect their lives in the least.
    Umm..... Most Christians don't have issues with drinking alcohol, as long as it is responsibly done in moderation. What true Christians don't like is binge drinking or wanton drunkenness. But they don't tend to fall into the "religious right" either.

    As for California laws on alcohol.... Between the hours of 2am and 6am daily you can NOT purchase alcohol. I don't know about Texas laws, beyond what you mentioned about Sunday, but it would appear that is only one day with six others that aren't affected. Do you really need that one extra day to get your beer? Why not just stock a 6pack in your fridge the day before and drink it at home, or do they actually come checking door-to-door to make sure you are alcohol free?
    It's never too early in the year,
    to spread some goodwill cheer!

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie Boy View Post
    As for California laws on alcohol.... Between the hours of 2am and 6am daily you can NOT purchase alcohol. I don't know about Texas laws, beyond what you mentioned about Sunday, but it would appear that is only one day with six others that aren't affected. Do you really need that one extra day to get your beer? Why not just stock a 6pack in your fridge the day before and drink it at home, or do they actually come checking door-to-door to make sure you are alcohol free?
    My point is, that as long as I meet the legal age requirement (21) and I am deemed by the seller/server to be OK to sell to (not drunk, don't pose a danger to myself or others), I don't care if it's 3pm or 3am, I, as the consumer should be able to buy what I want when I want it. I don't care if it is a Sunday morning.

    I shouldn't be regulated by Blue Laws that religious people have put in place for their own self-serving need to feel in charge of everyone else who doesn't live like they do.

    Far be it from me to start quoting Dubya, the war criminal, of all people. But if you'll go back to his infamous "I'm the decider" quote - "I'm the decider, and I decide what's best..." <-- That right there is what the Christian Right is all about - they really would love a complete usurpation of power and control - a complete and total theocracy. Unfortunately for them, the reason for the above-mentioned inconsistency - is that they really do have to pick their battles. They have picked homosexuality/same-sex marriage and abortion as their two main fights they want to pick. Again to my earlier point - the reason they have picked these specific fights is that that they know that if they were to try an impose the totalitarian theocratic regime they dream about upon the United States - even the part of the non-religious crowd who are against abortion and homosexuality, there are enough non-Christian people in this country that would rise up immediately and say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa!!! Excuse me, uh, No."

    If you make the Christian Right put up or shut up - go right on ahead, turn the US into a total theocracy - either they would collapse under their own weight, or we would really see an uprising of non-Christian people, the likes of which this planet hasn't ever seen.

    I'll give them this, when they do pick their battles on abortion and homosexuality, they do give just about everything they've got. Thing is, times are changing. People are becoming more educated and realizing that we gay people aren't monsters and child predators, we're people. Just like you. Just trying to make a life for ourselves. People like Wendy Davis are standing up for women, and their right to do what's right for them and their bodies.

    We're finally starting to come out of the Dark Ages, but there is still much work to do to stop and shut down the Christian Right.

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Nothing good happens at clubs or bars selling liquor past 2am.

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Nothing good happens at clubs or bars selling liquor past 2am.
    OK, if the 2am (or whatever) time curfew is imposed on adult beverage sales for safety reasons, then that's perfectly fine. I have no problem at all with that. And the individual states' division of government that oversees alcoholic beverage sales (in Texas, we have the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission) should be making those rules and laws based on the safety needs of the general public to keep everyone who is out at that hour safe. I have no problem at all with that, in fact, I encourage that.

    But making those rules based on because a certain religious sect's feeling that no one should be out drinking at that hour - where do they get off dictating to me what I can and cannot do responsibly on my own personal time?

    If it's a matter of keeping people safe, honestly, that's why we have laws, and police, and government. That's what our tax dollars are supposed to be paying for. That should be for government to impose those rules - not for the Christian Right to put a bug in government's ear and say, "What if we come up with Blue Laws and just shut down or heavily regulate everything, especially on Sunday?"

    Again, it comes back around to the Christian Right trying to regulate everyone and everything based on the self-serving need for power and control.

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie Boy View Post
    As for California laws on alcohol.... Between the hours of 2am and 6am daily you can NOT purchase alcohol. I don't know about Texas laws, beyond what you mentioned about Sunday, but it would appear that is only one day with six others that aren't affected. Do you really need that one extra day to get your beer? Why not just stock a 6pack in your fridge the day before and drink it at home, or do they actually come checking door-to-door to make sure you are alcohol free?
    And I'd forgotten to say (and should have) - thank you very much for the clarification on California's laws. Here in Texas, alcohol buying hours (at a store for off-premises consumption) are...

    Monday to Friday - 6am to Midnight
    Saturday - 6am to 1am
    and on Sunday - 11am to Midnight.

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    You show courage the brave dream of

    Gallop on my old warhorse

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Taz View Post
    I get the sarcasm, I do.

    It's not that I feel that I'm right and everyone else isn't, and it's not for me to toot my own horn as loud as I can. My point is that I take serious, passionate issue with the Christian Right trying to run this nation and everyone in it as if they own the place (see Rick Santorum's "We have the truth" speech). Let people live their lives how they see fit, whether the Christian Right likes it, or whether they don't. They will either change with the times, or the times will change them. That's all I'm saying here.

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Don't worry jdc, the picture was more a blanket statement aimed all of JUB recently. Not taking pot shots at you mate
    You show courage the brave dream of

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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Taz View Post
    Don't worry jdc, the picture was more a blanket statement aimed all of JUB recently. Not taking pot shots at you mate
    Oh no harm, no foul...


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    Re: Honest appraisal of the Religious Right

    Quote Originally Posted by jdcnow View Post
    And I'd forgotten to say (and should have) - thank you very much for the clarification on California's laws. Here in Texas, alcohol buying hours (at a store for off-premises consumption) are...

    Monday to Friday - 6am to Midnight
    Saturday - 6am to 1am
    and on Sunday - 11am to Midnight.
    Then we are a bit more lax here. Straight up 6am to 2am. The rules are the same for bars and other such on premises drinking sites.
    It's never too early in the year,
    to spread some goodwill cheer!

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