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  1. #151
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    Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by borg69unimatrix View Post
    Actually, the ancient Greeks knew the earth was round and very accurately determined it's size by measuring the shadow length of a set length of stick at high noon in several different locations in the Mediterranean area and Egypt.
    Still, I'm not sure Terra and Mare Incognita don't trump Aristotelian sticks.

  2. #152
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    One should rather ask "how could this not happen," as the histories of humanity repeat this chapter over and over.
    The federal holiday was created in 1937, long before modern sensibilities began to reexamine Columbus and the conquistadors. Remember it was not until Kevin Costner made Dances With Wolves that Hollywood even made a positive portrayal of Native Americans.

    The opportunity for the Holocaust happened because it came on the heels right after WWI. The "great powers" were jaded and slow to rise to the call due to the obvious futility of the carnage that was the Great War.

    It is one thing to say that the rout of the indigenous Americans was inevitable, quite another to dismiss it or not use it as a touchstone to change our attitudes going forward.
    Your ideas here don't really make any sense together as a coherent point. What exactly is your point?

    As I said earlier, there is much I dislike personally about Native American culture, but I'd die just as quickly defending their rights as any culture here that I admire more.
    You first.

  3. #153
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    Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Still, I'm not sure Terra and Mare Incognita don't trump Aristotelian sticks.
    LOL

    True enough -- just because they (perhaps) knew they could sail around didn't mean they had a clue what was out there.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  4. #154
    Virginia Is for Lovers Alnitak's Avatar
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    Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    LOL

    True enough -- just because they (perhaps) knew they could sail around didn't mean they had a clue what was out there.
    I doubt there weren't ancient European fisherman who found Labrador before the Vikings. Their archaeology is just undiscovered, and their legacy unrecorded. Even in the 16th century it wasn't uncommon for fishing vessels to venture out into Canadians waters, but in our schools' history textbooks, the travels of well publicized explorers is all that remains of Europeans on the East Coast until the Virginia colony.
    Last edited by Alnitak; October 12th, 2013 at 10:55 PM.

  5. #155
    Do I dare to eat a peach?
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    Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    .... As I said earlier, there is much I dislike personally about Native American culture, but I'd die just as quickly defending their rights as any culture here that I admire more. Each one has its place, regardless of our admiration, dislike, or indifference.
    Let's not get carried away.

    Especially from someone now living alongside the desperate pueblos alongside the desolate New Mexican interstates.

    What happened to the First Peoples is a disgrace. Offering to die for them will serve no purpose. Moving them out of a ghettoized existence will.

  6. #156
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Let's not get carried away.

    Especially from someone now living alongside the desperate pueblos alongside the desolate New Mexican interstates.

    What happened to the First Peoples is a disgrace. Offering to die for them will serve no purpose. Moving them out of a ghettoized existence will.
    Hear, Hear (I KNEW I got it wrong)

    This is certainly more constructive as a way to get past the legacy we're all here discussing than a sentiment of "well, get with the program" and talking about Vikings or Celts. The legacy of the colonization of the Americas is still highly visible and tangible today, it's not something in the archaic past with no repercussions in the present.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; October 12th, 2013 at 11:05 PM.

  7. #157
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    Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Here, here.

    This is certainly more constructive as a way to get past the legacy we're all here discussing than a sentiment of "well, get with the program" and talking about Vikings or Celts. The legacy of the colonization of the Americas is still highly visible and tangible today, it's not something in the archaic past with no repercussions in the present.
    In much of the country it isn't evident, so people can be happily ignorant.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  8. #158
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    Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    In much of the country it isn't evident, so people can be happily ignorant.
    Very much so--- and it's because of another legacy of colonization, reservations.

  9. #159
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    Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Very much so--- and it's because of another legacy of colonization, reservations.
    Some of which are doing quite nicely. One here in Oregon is famous for its hot springs, and the resort around them; others now have casinos -- the closest one to me does well enough from its casino that all tribal members have health care as good as any state employee, and everyone has good housing as well.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  10. #160
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    Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Some of which are doing quite nicely. One here in Oregon is famous for its hot springs, and the resort around them; others now have casinos -- the closest one to me does well enough from its casino that all tribal members have health care as good as any state employee, and everyone has good housing as well.
    That's true, it's been a boon for some tribes, mostly small ones. But there is definitely a general misconception in the public that all tribes "have casinos now" and are rich.

  11. #161
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    Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsdx View Post
    Why is this man remembered as a hero, and why does he have his own holiday?
    I think that if you examine any human you'll find that none are "heroes".

    I haven't given much thought to Columbus in my life, so I don't really know much about him. This thread has been very educational. Thanks for making it.

  12. #162
    Dejavudoo
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    Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Let's not get carried away.

    Especially from someone now living alongside the desperate pueblos alongside the desolate New Mexican interstates.

    What happened to the First Peoples is a disgrace. Offering to die for them will serve no purpose. Moving them out of a ghettoized existence will.
    I don't have much ability to move Native Americans, but I vote progressive tickets in elections, oppose conservative measures, and help individuals as I encounter them.

    As you know, I serve and support food banks, shelters, and other charities.

    My point was that I value their success and existence if not what they have become.

    Having lived in Alaska and New Mexico, I have worked alongside Native Americans in greater numbers and proximity than most people I know elsewhere. Sadly, their heavy reliance on casinos works against their interests here quite often, as their own members squander much in gambling and without the expendable income to afford it. They also encourage both drinking and smoking, both of which have devastating effects.

    Like most posting on JUB, 99% of what is exchanged is little more than coffee house chatter -- little is learned, little is exchanged of value, and little is improved in the real world. Members are caricatured and real people are obscured. There is little chance we would ever recognize real human beings from these thinly sliced spectra, as notional conclusions are ever a part of the read.

    Native Americans remain as worthy of protection in armed conflict if we are called to defend the country as much as any other cause or people that we know in more intimate ways. Knowing that and owning it in no way reduces or replaces one's day-to-day commitment to alleviate poverty which is not dependent upon the ethnicity of the poor. Suggesting such a dichotomy is irrational.
    Last edited by Dejavudoo; October 13th, 2013 at 03:49 AM.

  13. #163
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavudoo View Post
    Having lived in Alaska and New Mexico, I have worked alongside Native Americans in greater numbers and proximity than most people I know elsewhere. Sadly, their heavy reliance on casinos works against their interests here quite often, as their own members squander much in gambling and without the expendable income to afford it. They also encourage both drinking and smoking, both of which have devastating effects.
    Many tribes do not want casinos for *exactly* this reason. I think many Americans would be surprised to see the list of tribes that has refused to do anything higher than the level of bingo hall gaming precisely because of what you talked about above, regardless of the financial tradeoff. Additionally, not all tribes are capable or situated in a place where "well, go open a casino" makes any sense, nor are all casinos wildly successful, nor are all tribes small enough to end poverty entrenchment from the revenue of a casino.

    Here's the thing though, a lot of tribes turned to gaming in the first place because it is so difficult for reservation dwellers to start up enterprise due to the legal complexities of tribal nationhood. As one example, all (remaining) tribal land is considered to be held in trust by the Federal Government-- in effect, tribes own it but are unable to to use it as collateral, or borrow against it for the purposes of business capital loans or anything else. And as I think we all know Indians themselves are not wealthy people, they're in fact the poorest demographic in the United States. Indians largely didn't get into casino gaming "instead of more honest and less unsavory enterprises", but rather because it's so difficult for them to get into any other type of business. Also, nearly all of the first Indian casinos got their investments to begin from Asian overseas lenders-- American banks and capital investors routinely panned reservation tribal ideas for resorts or casinos or businesses. (I'm sure more than one of those lenders must have kicked themselves afterwards.) But that was part of a much longer history of banks being unwilling to lend to tribal entities for starting up businesses.

    Despite the "general reputation" that Indians have their own courts (and the accompanying suspicion that they're inherently unfair or corrupt against non-Indians) the typical American is pretty outraged if you explain to them the complex process of what happens if a non-Indian wanders onto a reservation and rapes you or commits some other felony, where due to the legal setup the reservation dweller has no direct power to insist upon a prosecution, and a large number of reservation felonies go unprosecuted.

    This is a *bit* of a tangent but it is relevant insofar as, NA's are not simply an ethnicity like any other. They are also (at least with regard to reservation dwellers and tribal members) of a different legal and political category than any other American citizen, which in a few small ways is beneficial, and in a number of large ways is detrimental. With every other ethnicity, you really only have two legal categories: American citizen or not. The rest of what affects them is social and largely not procedurally or legislatively different. For Indians, your citizenship/tribal membership status will effect everything from how you can borrow money to how (un)equally you are protected against crimes, to even child adoption. There isn't a Bureau of White Affairs white people have to go deal with to do home improvements or refinance their house. There is a Bureau of Indian Affairs.

    The colorblind approach is admirable in theory but it also does completely miss a lot of specific complexity at work insofar as how certain things affect certain groups differently, and how history has shaped that difference.

  14. #164
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    Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

    ........and The Book of Mormon unequivocally states that Jared and his brother, at the time of the Tower of Babel, fled across the ocean via unique barges and established an ancient civilization in the Americas. So I guess "Columbus Day" must be renamed "Jared and His Brother Day." Just one of the many million reasons to be grateful Mitt failed to win the Whitehouse. Go figure
    Last edited by Yuki Sohma; October 13th, 2013 at 04:52 PM.

  15. #165
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    Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

    I agree on Columbus, the Vikings had already landed in North America many years prior.

  16. #166
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    Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Sohma View Post
    ........and The Book of Mormon unequivocally states that Jared and his brother, at the time of the Tower of Babel, fled across the ocean via unique barges and established an ancient civilization in the Americas. So I guess "Columbus Day" must be renamed "Jared and His Brother Day." Just one of the many million reasons to be grateful Mitt failed to win the Whitehouse. Go figure
    LOL

    Those "unique barges" were submarines!

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  17. #167
    Dejavudoo
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    Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Sohma View Post
    ........and The Book of Mormon unequivocally states
    Sadly, the Book of Mormon fraud has been "unequivocally" debunked for quite some time.

    Here is a 1912 article in the New York Times that lowers the proverbial shotgun: http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/...912papyrus.htm

    The Wiki article explains succinctly why the Book of Abraham is so solidly proved to be a deliberate fraud: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham

    Unfortunately, like an ugly baby, the book cannot be disowned. The basis of multiple key doctrines of Mormonism are only found in that book, so it would undo over a century of official dogma to walk away.

    And to your point, we are thankful indeed.

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