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  1. #1
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    is seeing believing?

    I'm fascinated that people seem to be so willing to accept unlikely explanations given odd circumstances.

    miaedu posted this video in the "carrie" thread in Entertainment. It's interesting:



    I suppose the amazing Randi would have been nonplussed. I hope I would have been, too.

    On the other hand, are there not good reasons, other than theatrics, to entertain the unlikely?

    For example, ought we not entertain an unlikely idea that helps us contemplate the trouble around a difficult problem like virtue?

    In my opinion, too much of contemporary religion (per American Christianity especially) is like the gullible victim of the coffee shop prank.

    In the meantime, are we all missing those figures which might help us delve into our most important questions?
    pro bonobo

  2. #2
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: is seeing believing?

    I've never experienced a para normal episode therefore, am unable to contribute anything of great value to this topic.

    Here we enter the world of human consciousness as our senses process our daily stimuli.....revealing that our senses can mislead us into believing that which is merely deception per the episode captioned in the video clip....well rehearsed in the world of spies, and national security interests conspiring to mislead us to believe that which serves the plans of those who deceive.

    In the world of the spiritual person there is an awareness that the human brain, human awareness, or perception is not limited by time, and space for human consciousness transcends any thought we might speculate upon, that limits our understandings of man's place in the universe, leading us into the sphere of Quantum Physics where we can speak of the human mind co-extensive with the universe in which human life participates, and contributes as co-creator of an evolving universe.

    Carl Jung's theories on individuation have assisted me better understand my place in the universe, as I relate to human conscious awareness:

    The Individuation process brings up the true personality of a person, it makes him an Individual. Individuation generally has a profound healing effect on the person.
    (Jung, Symbols of Transformation: An analysis of the prelude to a case of schizophrenia 1962, p. 433).

    As a result of becoming one with the universe/The Creator's life the transformed person (the reborn person) becomes harmonious, calm, mature and responsible. They feel and act like parents to the rest of humanity. They protect and promote the ideals of life, freedom and justice.

    I have experienced several telepathic episodes over the years, and other numinous experiences have enabled me to appreciate that the human senses can delude us, even mislead us into believing that which appears to be real when in fact is merely a figment of our imagination...I am content to remain a student, knowing that I know precious little, or nothing......to enable me to remain the most dedicated of students.

  3. #3

    Re: is seeing believing?

    LOL that is really funny

    I'm fascinated that people seem to be so willing to accept unlikely explanations given odd circumstances.
    errrm you DO know about 9/11 I take it??

  4. #4
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: is seeing believing?

    Additional thoughts, after drinking two strong coffees to stimulate a few of my neurons into action:

    Soeren Kierkegaard, wrote that “the greatest misfortune is unconditional confidence in reason and in rational thinking----- and the task of philosophy consists in escaping from the power of rational thinking and in finding in oneself the audacity to seek the truth in that which all have become accustomed to consider as paradoxical and absurd.”.....here lies the dilemma facing us in the captioned video clip for the unwary, innocent person conditoned by social engineering (religious indoctrination) believes that which they see, for their senses limit their understandings to the episode unfolding before their very eyes....their common sense dictating their belief that the episode is real....whereas, in reality they are being deceived.

    Kierkegaard's theories have now been proven by science research, presciently correct. Quantum Theory and Relativity Theory have escaped from the power of rational thinking, and have the audacity to seek the truth in what is paradoxical and absurd....here we are led back to Zen thinking postulating the thought that all that we think is, can also be something else, challenging our ability to process reality as our senses would have us believe.

    This brings me onto the topic of light, reflecting my own beliefs that enlightenment is the way of the student focused on finding their way through the darkness, imposed by our senses believing that which can easily deceive us, as the video clip illustrates so well.

    Matter is a minor relevancy in a Universe made up of light, for matter is gravitionally trapped light...matter and light are ultimately interchangeable....for every particle of matter, there are one billion particles of light....even the human body stores immense amounts of light.

    In Holy Scripture “If thine eye be single thy whole body will be full of light.” Mth 6:22, Lk 11:34 Is it just coincidence that Christ says “I am the Light of the world”? John 8:12

    Zen understandings addresses the light of the world and says that "when we become enlightened there is a Buddha of light in your own body. Once that Buddha of light appears, mountains, rivers, earth, grass, trees, and forests suddenly glow with a great light. To see this, you have to look inside your own heart."

    It is also very informative that part of our wave/particle duality is that we relate to other human beings, even our pets by the overlapping of our wave functions, and the extent which we overlap is how committed we are to one another....leading us to loving relationships with our fellow man developing our oneness with our collective consciousness of being at one with the Universe.

    Back to paradox, and the video clip convincing the innocent person that, that which their senses are processing as real, is in fact unreal for their senses are being deceived.......so what are the macrocosm, and the microcosm of the Universe doing to our common sense?

    Science and the Universe are telling us that what we thought was common sense, is not necessarily common sense any more....for what we believe we see, is not always what it appears to be, as the video clip illustrates.
    Last edited by kallipolis; October 9th, 2013 at 03:28 AM.

  5. #5

    Re: is seeing believing?

    Seeing is believing. . . .


  6. #6
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    Re: is seeing believing?

    ...and blessed are those who do not see, and yet believe.

    My memory has served me well, but I still do not remember which Gospel it was from.

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    Re: is seeing believing?

    Wow, Kalli. What thoughtful replies, touching on Zen, Christ, physics and a couple of noted philosophers. Good material for me to think about.

    Kierkegaard's words seem especially relevant, here. "...the audacity to seek the truth in that which all have become accustomed to consider as paradoxical and absurd..."

    It would seem that the absurdities we may readily accept (as in the video) don't reveal the truth, while the paradoxes some readily dismiss (as in sacred myth) do reveal the truth.

    Is it easy to accept the false, while audacious to accept the true?

    *

    Per another reflection on the ability of the senses, I've had several experiences recently in which my perceptions have been curtailed. I haven't "seen" what is before my eyes (important things) due to serious distraction, nor "heard" what is in my ears. I think I would describe such deficit as the opposite of telepathy, in which the senses are not heightened, but diminished, and moreover such deficit may be almost as fascinating as heightened awareness. Ordinarily, we expect we see what is before our eyes. Yet, it may be that some see more, and I am aware that recently, I have seen less!

    So it's been that my diminished perception has made me wonder about what is of substance. I haven't been convinced that the distractions which have robbed me of my normal sight and hearing are substantial; contrarily, they seem to be those things which obscure and occlude, hence they should be subject to real skepticism. On the other hand, there must be something which is the adverse of distraction, which must be plain old attention. If we are able to pay attention, we may distinguish what is real, from that which isn't.

    Is it possible that if we pay attention (somehow), neither the theatrics which fool the gullible, nor the distractions which render us senseless, will keep us from what is real and important?
    pro bonobo

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    Re: is seeing believing?

    Fun.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  9. #9
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    Re: is seeing believing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Fun.
    'Nuf.
    pro bonobo

  10. #10
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: is seeing believing?

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    Per another reflection on the ability of the senses, I've had several experiences recently in which my perceptions have been curtailed. I haven't "seen" what is before my eyes (important things) due to serious distraction, nor "heard" what is in my ears. I think I would describe such deficit as the opposite of telepathy, in which the senses are not heightened, but diminished, and moreover such deficit may be almost as fascinating as heightened awareness. Ordinarily, we expect we see what is before our eyes. Yet, it may be that some see more, and I am aware that recently, I have seen less!

    So it's been that my diminished perception has made me wonder about what is of substance. I haven't been convinced that the distractions which have robbed me of my normal sight and hearing are substantial; contrarily, they seem to be those things which obscure and occlude, hence they should be subject to real skepticism. On the other hand, there must be something which is the adverse of distraction, which must be plain old attention. If we are able to pay attention, we may distinguish what is real, from that which isn't.

    Is it possible that if we pay attention (somehow), neither the theatrics which fool the gullible, nor the distractions which render us senseless, will keep us from what is real and important?
    The brain has subroutines that construct a model of the world on the basis of available sensory input, and then leave the higher neurological circuits to analyse and interpret the model. It is commonplace for the model to be poorly constructed, and even basic optical illusions can defeat the modelling apparatus. Overlooking things can be a function of overtaxed attention and too much sensory input, preoccupation with other matters, transitory or chronic illness, etc. Or it could be the influence of other circuits, adapted to the omnivorous and predatory past of our species, that pare down the model deliberately, automatically suppressing information deemed by that evolutionary legacy to be irrelevant. Perhaps not so irrelevant in our attempts to understand the universe and our place in it on the basis of that perceptual model. Anyway, that's my rough understanding of how that bit of the brain functions. Its very presence sort of validates the concept of metaphor: we only know the world through models of it, knowing it with greater or lesser fidelity.

    But honestly I find most people who dwell too long in metaphor inevitably lose sight of the thing intended to be conveyed by the metaphor. They end up seeing only the surfaces of the metaphor rather than its contents. And I think we are equipped, perceptually and intellectually, to do better. I like it whenever a metaphor can be discarded because the thing itself can be apprehended directly.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  11. #11
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: is seeing believing?

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    Wow, Kalli. What thoughtful replies, touching on Zen, Christ, physics and a couple of noted philosophers. Good material for me to think about.

    Kierkegaard's words seem especially relevant, here. "...the audacity to seek the truth in that which all have become accustomed to consider as paradoxical and absurd..."

    It would seem that the absurdities we may readily accept (as in the video) don't reveal the truth, while the paradoxes some readily dismiss (as in sacred myth) do reveal the truth.

    Is it easy to accept the false, while audacious to accept the true?

    *

    Per another reflection on the ability of the senses, I've had several experiences recently in which my perceptions have been curtailed. I haven't "seen" what is before my eyes (important things) due to serious distraction, nor "heard" what is in my ears. I think I would describe such deficit as the opposite of telepathy, in which the senses are not heightened, but diminished, and moreover such deficit may be almost as fascinating as heightened awareness. Ordinarily, we expect we see what is before our eyes. Yet, it may be that some see more, and I am aware that recently, I have seen less!

    So it's been that my diminished perception has made me wonder about what is of substance. I haven't been convinced that the distractions which have robbed me of my normal sight and hearing are substantial; contrarily, they seem to be those things which obscure and occlude, hence they should be subject to real skepticism. On the other hand, there must be something which is the adverse of distraction, which must be plain old attention. If we are able to pay attention, we may distinguish what is real, from that which isn't.

    Is it possible that if we pay attention (somehow), neither the theatrics which fool the gullible, nor the distractions which render us senseless, will keep us from what is real and important?
    Eastern mysticism provides us with the prospect of the "third eye," intuitive reasoning another interpretation that enables us to look beyond apparent truth, and view the complete picture, rather than being limited by the "reality" set before us that our senses compute as the totality of reality.

    There is an apparent absurdity in believing that there is much more to reality than the facts that our senses fathom to provide us with our understandings....yet, for those of us who have chosen to embrace the inspiration of intuitive reasoning, there is a realisation that trust in "the inner voice," or the "third eye" is an acceptance that there is more to human perception than that provided by the senses.

    Your reference to a "blockage" in your perceptiveness might well be your response to those troubling matters that you wish to shut out, preferring to delay dealing effectively with the inevitable an not uncommon human response to overwhelming challenges that oblige us to "wake up" and scale that mountain peak to enable us to reach the other side and liberation from an incidious creature daring to destroy our well being....I'm borrowing from Homer's, Oddyssey...for metaphor often provides us with an easy understanding that there are challenges we would prefer to avoid for want of confidence in our ability to resolve.

    Confidence, or trust in our wherewithal to confront, and create the panacea for our each, and every daily challenge is also a growing awareness that we also learn from our experiences despite recognising that within our very life there is a helpful contributor, our best friend if you will offering us practical wisdom to reach our goals.
    Last edited by kallipolis; October 10th, 2013 at 12:57 AM.

  12. #12
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    Re: is seeing believing?

    There is no reason to believe that evolution has provided us with tools to discern everything in existence, only with enough to survive.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  13. #13
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    Re: is seeing believing?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    But honestly I find most people who dwell too long in metaphor inevitably lose sight of the thing intended to be conveyed by the metaphor. They end up seeing only the surfaces of the metaphor rather than its contents. And I think we are equipped, perceptually and intellectually, to do better. I like it whenever a metaphor can be discarded because the thing itself can be apprehended directly.
    Perhaps those who lose touch with the mystery a metaphor grasps at suffer the fault of idolatry?

    Discarding metaphors strikes me as rather quixotic...they're pervasive and daily things, so much so that metaphorical thinking seems to be part of human nature itself. We are figurative thinkers. Should we do better than to be human?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Confidence, or trust in our wherewithal to confront, and create the panacea for our each, and every daily challenge is also a growing awareness that we also learn from our experiences despite recognising that within our very life there is a helpful contributor, our best friend if you will offering us practical wisdom to reach our goals.
    Strife can be a terrific educator. It makes us look inward as well as out. It makes us look forward, as well as back. It heightens our empathy, when we may be challenged to withhold a grain of pity. It makes us long for the promises of civilization, even in the midst of despair. In the midst of strife, the value of civility is revealed.

    I think there may be some wisdom to be gained from strife (even at the temporary cost it imposes on our awareness).

    And strife can be so awful, one would wish never to gain that wisdom.

    There is also an exciting and hopeful time which follows it, a foundation of peace on which better affairs may be constructed!
    pro bonobo

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